Talk:Khanna family

COI tag (September 2024)

See Articles related to Khanna family and clan. C F A 💬 22:06, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Notability

TL;DR version: Irrespective of the some coverage about a few individuals of the family, the topic of this article, i.e. 'Khanna family', has hardly any in-depth coverage to meet WP:GNG.

Longer version: There seems no in-depth coverage of this "Khanna family" to make it a notable topic. No surprise that WP:OR/WP:SYNTHESIS starts with its lead itself. Pretty much all cited reliable sources have repeated passing mentions of mainly two individuals – namely Vipin Khanna and Arvind Khanna – about mainly some alleged corruption cases. Both of them already have their WP articles, although I suspect only Arvind Khanna is notable out of the two. The rest of this article is full of WP:REFBOMBING, WP:UNDUE details, WP:SYNTHESIS, and non-independent/unreliable sources.

Note that there are two very popular Khannas who are unrelated to this family, namely Rajesh Khanna and Vinod Khanna. They were popular Bollywood actors and have a lot of coverage about their families. So beware of the false positive results. Anyway, here is my analysis of all the sources of the article's current version of 22:06, 1 September 2024:

• Poor/non-independent/unrelated sources: (60-odd in total)

• Company websites or user-generated sources: ref 8, ref 9, ref 20; ref 28, ref 33, ref 40, ref 53, ref 54, ref 56, ref 58, ref 60, ref 61, ref 62, ref 64, ref 65, ref 66, ref 67, ref 68, ref 69, ref 71, ref 72, ref 73, ref 74, ref 75, ref 77, ref 78, ref 79, ref 81, ref 111, ref 148, ref 149, ref 151, ref 152, ref 153, ref 154

• Personal websites: ref 26, ref 57, ref 59. ref 144, ref 150, ref 155

• Other poor sources:

• ref 2 (same as ref 127): It is about a polo event and is authored by the managing director of Equisport, a brand producing equestrian sportswear. Note that the article mentions at the end that "The writer is managing director, Equisport". It briefly mentions Navin Khanna.

• ref 27 (autobiography of an army officer); ref 91, ref 100 (it's a WP:UGC that publishes content sent by common people), ref 104
• ref 19 (interview of Arvind Khanna by an obscure YouTube channel)

• Sources that don't mention the Khanna family or any of its members: 98, ref 101 (it's also a WP:UGC); ref 121 (it's about Patiala State and lists name of Naginder Kumari before she married to Vipin Khanna), ref 122, ref 125, ref 129, ref 131, ref 132, ref 141, ref 142, ref 143, ref 160ref 161, ref 163, ref 164, ref 165, ref 167

• Fmily members whom cited reliable sources mention in passing without mentioning the Khanna family:

• Rahul Khanna: ref 32 which is same as ref 70 (quotes him without mentioning his any connection with the Khanna family)

• S. L. Khanna: ref 22 (passing mention about his Freemason membership without telling anything about the Khanna family)

• Adhiraj Khanna: ref 159 (gives details of his wedding without telling anything about him or mentioning his any connection with the Khanna family)

• Vinita Singh: ref 140 (just lists her name without mentioning anything about Khanna family)

• Shivin Khanna: ref 80 (passing mention without telling any connection with the Khanna family)

• Priya Khanna: passing mentions about her 'Art-Life Restoration Studio' but no mention about her connection with the Khanna family: ref 156, ref 157, ref 158, ref 166

• Navin Khanna: passing mentions about him without any detail about the Khanna family: ref 63 (merely name listed at the site of Offshore Leaks database); ref 135 (lists his name)

• Rajeshwari Kumari: ref 82 (news about a business launch by her, but no mention of the Khanna family)

• Others who have mostly individual coverage:

• Arvind Khanna:

• Iraq oil-for-food scandal: ref 10, ref 103 (interview)
• Embraer deal Case: ref 46
• Passing mentions (mainly name listings): ref 113; ref 116, ref 117, ref 118, ref 119, ref 128, ref 130, ref 133, ref 134, ref 138, ref 137
• Other coverage: ref 4: offering resignation from PGAI; ref 107 (profile); ref 108 & ref 112 (both have same news about political party change); ref 109 (politics-related), ref 114 (resigns from Congress); ref 115, ref 144, ref 146, & ref 147 (all are about his NGO 'Umeed'); ref 123 & ref 124 (death news of his mother); ref 126 (suspected violation of FCRA act); ref 139 (his comments about the National Games' schedule); ref 17, ref 110 & ref 120 (these three have passing mentions about his relationship with Amarinder Singh).

• Vipin Khanna:

• Mentions in committee reports of the Indian government: ref 15 (same as ref 35)
• Passing mentions about his alleged corruption:

• ref 3; ref 36 (p. 104); ref 47; ref 48 (merely listed among suspects on p. 24)
• Iraq oil-for-food scandal: ref 11, ref 88, ref 105
• Barak Missile scandal: ref 29; ref 39
• Denel scandal: ref 30; ref 44, ref 89
• Embraer deal case: ref 49, ref 90ref 84, ref 106
• Operation West End: ref 86

• Vinod Khanna:

• ref 18: short puffery piece about him by a Yoga trainer that was published by a local Yoga publication.
• Passing mention about Vinod Khanna's alleged corruption:

• Bofors scandal: ref 12 which is same as ref 45 (also contains details about Khannas unrelated to this family, including the actor Vinod Khanna); ref 94, ref 95
• Embraer deal case: ref 14
• Tax evasion suspect: ref 102 (merely list his name)

• Aditya Khanna:

• Short mentions about his alleged involvement in Iraq oil-for-food scandal: ref 13, ref 42, ref 87, ref 99, ref 162
• Passing mentions: ref 31 (Pandora Papers); ref 34 & ref 55 (both merely confirm that he is vice chairman of DSSI Group); ref 136 (lists as a team's co-owner with 4% shareholding)

• Passing mention about their companies:
  • DSSI: ref 23, ref 24, ref 85, ref 92 (p. 256) (all just lists the company's name);
  • S and R International: ref 41 (p. 32) (just lists the company's name)
  • FiNoble: ref 7 (see p. 38), ref 38
  • Concord International: ref 16 (same as ref 37); ref 25 (police raid); ref 93, ref 96, ref 97
  • TSL Defence Technologies: ref 50; ref 51, ref 52

• The actual sources that have coverage about "Khannas":

• ref 43, ref 76, ref 83: all three have short mentions about the same set of alleged corruption cases of Khanna family members.

Note: I didn't include the following 4 sources, as I don't have access to them: ref 1, ref 5, ref 6, & ref 22. The ref 5 is a Lok Sabha Debate and it seems available online (see here). But I couldn't find the exact debate, as the citation doesn't mention the date. Anyway, I will request the editor in question to share the relevant quotes from them. Pinging CFA, as they nominated few articles of this family in the past and might be interested in this post. - NitinMlk (talk) 22:37, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping and the in-depth analysis. This is exactly what I was getting at with my other deletion nominations. This is a walled garden of WP:REFBOMBED articles that have only lasted this long because of the length/number of references. But very few of the references actually verify the information (and thus most of it is likely OR, especially considering the creator's apparent COI) and even fewer make any effort at establishing notability. I think you should just go ahead and nominate this for deletion. Nothing offers significant coverage of the "Khannas" as a group at all. No amount of editing is going to change that.

Regarding the other articles, Arvind Khanna is notable through WP:NPOL as an elected member of the Punjab Legislative Assembly (though all the blatant OR/promotion needs to be removed). I haven't looked at Vipin Khanna in depth yet, but they likely aren't notable based on a quick check. C F A 💬 00:16, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Maintenance tags

Hipal, can you please add (or suggest) the appropriate tags to this article until the following references and the unreliable/WP:UNDUE content based on them get fixed?

References in question

The following references of the current version: Poor/non-independent/unrelated sources: (60-odd in total) Company websites or user-generated sources: ref 8, ref 9, ref 20; ref 28, ref 33, ref 40, ref 53, ref 54, ref 56, ref 58, ref 60, ref 61, ref 62, ref 64, ref 65, ref 66, ref 67, ref 68, ref 69, ref 71, ref 72, ref 73, ref 74, ref 75, ref 77, ref 78, ref 79, ref 81, ref 111, ref 148, ref 149, ref 151, ref 152, ref 153, ref 154 Personal websites: ref 26, ref 57, ref 59. ref 144, ref 150, ref 155 Other poor sources: ref 2 (same as ref 127): It is about a polo event and is authored by the managing director of Equisport, a brand producing equestrian sportswear. Note that the article mentions at the end that "The writer is managing director, Equisport". It briefly mentions Navin Khanna. ref 27 (autobiography of an army officer); ref 91, ref 100 (it's a WP:UGC that publishes content sent by common people), ref 104 ref 19 (interview of Arvind Khanna by an obscure YouTube channel) Sources that don't mention the Khanna family or any of its members: 98, ref 101 (it's also a WP:UGC); ref 121 (it's about Patiala State and lists name of Naginder Kumari before she married to Vipin Khanna), ref 122, ref 125, ref 129, ref 131, ref 132, ref 141, ref 142, ref 143, ref 160ref 161, ref 163, ref 164, ref 165, ref 167

Note: The sources listed here are copied from one of the sections of my previous post. - NitinMlk (talk) 22:50, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I propose proceeding with a merge instead. It's easier to pull out what's obviously encyclopedic and merge it into the related article. --Hipal (talk) 18:06, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Quotes needed

Rvsingh12, can you please provide relevant quotes from ref 1, ref 5, ref 6, & ref 22 of the current version? - NitinMlk (talk) 22:57, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Full reply to the above

I wanted to reply to the above queries and concerns all at once, if you will allow me. I do not mean to make it seem that I am not taking any of this seriously or running away from anything. I am currently in the middle of a personal situation that is taking most of my time and energy. That can also been seen with the fact that the quantum of my edits and the nature of them have also been very low compared to my previous activities. That being said, I am not shirking away from any responsibility and will continue to engage in this discussion and do any other cleanups that is required, since I think that’s only fair to the Wikipedia community.

I have gone through everything you all have said and this article. I can agree that clearly my editing style and understanding of the guidelines for articles has been wrong. I have been re-reading these guidelines for some time now, hoping to be a better editor in the future. I agree with you all that most, if not all, of the notability in this article relates to Arvind and Vipin, and to a lesser extent, Aditya. I think the most important information from this article can be merged into the two articles about Arvind and Vipin. I am happy to do it as I have been editing these articles for some time and am decently familiar with the topic. I am not super familiar with the merging process, but if this Khanna family article can be moved into a draft or go into my sandbox, so I can have access to information and references, it would very helpful. The draft or the sandbox then can later be deleted. This will at least give time to do all this. Update/edit to my reply: I went through the merger process and guidelines, just to double check everything and it seems I misunderstood how to do it. I still stand by what I stated regarding the merger, but I see the process is different and how to go about it is different from what I thought. But I am still happy to merge the info into the two articles of Vipin and Arvind, and make the redirects myself.

As for Vipin's notability:

There has been significant coverage of Vipin in many reliable secondary sources, in a diverse range that are completely independent of him, for a long period of time, 1970s to 2020s. Some of the sources are not only about Vipin, as they mention other people, but even these sources address Vipin's notability directly, and significantly cover him and his activities. Overall, the coverage of him in reliable secondary sources go into various lengths of detail about him and addresses information about him directly. In addition, the very nature of the coverage on Vipin is in regards to serious/high-level India related topics, his coverage is due to involvement in/ related to important events, does go into depth about him, and some circumstances that have led to his coverage even have an international scope. The events that have to led to his coverage from the 1970s to 2020s has had lasting effects on his notability, and secondary sources are still covering him even after his death in 2019. Also, many sources include direct quotes and mentions from the Indian Government and investigative agencies that directly address why Vipin is notable, what has made him notable, what he has reportedly done (which adds to his notability), and why he is being covered. Rvsingh12 (talk) 11:01, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

@Rvsingh12: How do you know the "Khannas"? You have spent a lot of time meticulously crafting these articles so they don't get deleted. You also uploaded all the pictures on Commons as "your own work". They clearly aren't, which is why I tagged them for deletion. But they aren't on Google anywhere, so where did you get them from? And there is tons of information (e.g. birthdates) that are completely unverified and not mentioned in sources. So where did you get that information from? I cannot see a situation where you do not have some sort of conflict of interest. C F A 💬 14:30, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello. I do not know the Khannas in any personal capacity. I have of course heard of them and their activities in my life, due to my background and interests. I am sorry to you and the Wikipedia community, I do not want to reveal any more of myself out of privacy. I assure you, Wikipedia is not my only hobby. Again, I truly apologise if I am not more accommodating about personal information and if I do not engage enough in personal talk.

Me making sure that these articles do not get deleted is me simply adhering to wikipedia guidelines on creating or maintaining or improving articles. I have also created, maintained, expanded and improved other articles. You are a highly experienced Wikipedian, please assume good faith in me, there is no “crafty” behaviour from my side. I have always tried to stay true to guidelines. When I have realized or been shown my mistakes, I have not really argued or debated (other than for my own understanding, again, sorry if it has come across argumentative), but have let Wikipedians who know Wikipedia guidelines better than me do what is correct. For example, I did not contest the deletion of any of the Khanna articles in Afd, instead I spend the time editing and creating other articles, cleaning up the ones I had been told to clean and read up more on Wikipedia guidelines for articles. Another example, nor did I engage in a debate or edit war when the article I created on Win Chadha was removed and again redirected to the Bofors Scandal, because I understood the reasoning and mistakes on my part

As for birthdates, there is plenty of information on the Internet that states their birthdates, for example the website MyCorporateInfo. Other info on personal dates I have, of course, come across on the Internet, but didn’t always cite them at the time because of my editing skill and interpretation of guidelines, especially for non-living people biographies and contentious/non-contentious information. I have always tried to cite any info, info that could be contested or needs to be citied for notability. Other personal info I can cite and didn’t due to my integration of not always literally citing every sentence, especially if that sentence does not have contentious information, and citing at the end of a few sentences or paragraph.

As for the images, I have stated before how I have them. They have been sourced from public domain archives, estate sales, other purchases, and auctions. I again do not want to reveal any more information about myself out of privacy. To the best of my knowledge, intentions, and interpretation, I have tried to adhere to regulations and guidelines. I am again reading and re-reading the Commons guidelines. If I realised or see that I have made mistakes, I will not contest the deletion whatsoever. If I can show evidence for why they should not be deleted, I will try before the deadline. I may not be able to before the deadline due to personal circumstances keeping me busy and using my energy. If they are deleted and I can later show evidence that they should not have been, I am sure the images can be restored with that proof or re-uploaded with the correct evidence or permission.

I have in complete good faith and respect for Wikipedia offered to do the merger, the subsequent redirect, and any other clean up. If you do not mind, I would like to please get started with that, so we can all move past this mess that my lack of experience and wrong interpretation of guidelines have caused. I would like to in good faith do this to clean up and rectify things. Rvsingh12 (talk) 18:05, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Merge with Khanna (clan)

Let's merge whatever encyclopedic pieces that exist in this article into Khanna (clan). - Hipal (talk) 17:31, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

@Hipal, I agree with this merger. I have also stated above, there is also some notable and encyclopaedic information from reliable secondary sources that can be added to the Vipin and Arvind articles for example, the info regarding the oil for food scandal is notable, addresses Vipin directly and significantly covers him. I will add this info separately to the articles. I will also clean up my edits from other articles that have had a COI (obviously I will not remove the COI) put on them. Rvsingh12 (talk) 20:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Rvsingh12, no, please discuss below before creating more WP:BLP violations. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:31, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

@NitinMlk, sure. I do not want to do any WP:BLP violations. I have been re-reading and going through the Wikipedia guidelines again. I know what my mistakes were in my past editing and I do not want to repeat them. I hope going forward the community can see that and I can regain some trust.

The only edits I want to do in the BLP articles is simply clean up the grammar and make the language used neutral, and remove any undue content and synthesis. I know this will obviously be monitored, so you will actually be able to see whether I have done what I have stated. I hope this will also highlight that I have actually read the guidelines again and want to move forward in a positive direction. Rvsingh12 (talk) 22:08, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

TL;DR version: Relevant content from this article should be shifted to Arvind Khanna and Vipin Khanna, after which it should be blanked/deleted and redirected to Vipin Khanna.

Detailed version: The suggestion of the article creator is to merge the relevant content to Arvind Khanna and Vipin Khanna, after which this article can be redirected to Vipin Khanna. This advice seems the best because the majority of the relevant content here is about those two and most of it is likely already covered in those articles. If there are any new details about them in this article, we can shift them to those articles. That way all relevant details about them will be covered in those biographies and we will also get a clear idea of Vipin Khanna's notability. After doing this, we can blank/delete this article because neither the Khannas meet WP:GNG as a standalone topic nor any of the other family members is notable.

Regarding merging with Khanna (clan), that's not possible because that's a clan article of the Khatri caste and no source even verifies that this family belong to that particular caste. On top of it, we also need self-identification in the case of living people before connecting them with any caste – see WP:CASTEID. Also, clan articles like Khanna (clan) can only have content that is directly covered by reliable sources about them and I don't think this article has any such sourced detail about that Khatri clan. At best, we can list the names of Arvind Khanna and Vipin Khanna in its Notable people section, provided the former has self-identified as Khatri in a reliable source and the latter is mentioned as Khatri in a reliable source. Note that the concerned article creator moved that page without discussion from Khanna (name) to Khanna (clan), which needs to be reverted, as these two should be separate articles to avoid WP:BLP violations and WP:OR. Fylindfotberserk is very experienced in fixing this sort of caste stuff. So he may help in separating Khanna (name) (or Khanna (surname)) from Khanna (clan) article.

PS: Hipal, all this may sound a bit unclear to you, as it involves caste-related stuff. So tomorrow I will clarify it further, if needed. I will also try to find whether any source mentions that Arvind Khanna and Vipin Khanna are Khatris. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:29, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Much appreciated. I've avoided digging into the caste-related content and discussions, other than noting the sanctions.

So you're saying it's unlikely much can be merged into the clan article. That's fine. Merge what we can to directly relevant articles as you've identified using high-quality refs, then delete this article. --Hipal (talk) 22:01, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

@NitinMlk, in the sources I have found, Arvind Khanna and Vipin Khanna have not self-identified or been identified as Khatris, respectively. Rvsingh12 (talk) 22:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Rvsingh12, OK. Do the reliable sources mention this family's religion? In any case, please focus on shifting the relevant content to Arvind Khanna and Vipin Khanna, as this article seems to have many BLP violations. If all relevant details about them are already covered in those articles, leave a note here so that this page can be deleted and redirected to Vipin Khanna.

On a different note, when you uploaded the c:File:Vipin Khanna in 1963.jpg in 2022, you mentioned that it was taken "in the late 1960s". It was also titled as such: File:Vipin Khanna - late 1960s.jpg. But later on, you mentioned the year as 1963. Can you show proof that it was taken in 1963? BTW, it is a copyright violation if it was taken in the late 1960s. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:12, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

@NitinMlk, I do not think any source explicitly states religion. From whatever understanding I have of Punjab's social dynamics, I always looked at Punjabi Hindu as more of an ethnicity. Obviously I do understand that there is a part of the dynamics that involves identification of the religious side . If it is then improper to mention "Punjabi Hindu", I will change it to just Punjabi.

I have the reliable sources to add/move the relevant information to Vipin Khanna. So you can go ahead and delete the article and redirect it.

I later on mentioned the year as 1963 because I initially made an honest mistake with the details and provenance. I doubt I will be able to show you the kind of proof you are looking for purely because I do not want to reveal any more info about myself out of privacy. I assure you, there is no copyright violation here and the information I have already provided about the image is correct. Rvsingh12 (talk) 21:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Rvsingh12, OK. The file is tagged as "own work" which means it's your work, i.e. you took the photo by yourself. Is that right? BTW, I apologise for the delayed response. I am a bit busy in real life. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:44, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

No problem, we all have a real life. As for who took the photo, I don't know. However, I acquired the photo, and so I thought, to the best of my knowledge and understanding, any copyrights associated with it. That being said, the photo is in the public domain since it was taken before 1964. I know that the date of creation is 1963 because of the acquisition process and other formalities. I referred to it as "own work" because I acquired it and I thought that was the way to refer it as. The author should be "Unknown". The photo is a scan of the original. Rvsingh12 (talk) 00:33, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the details and clarification. - NitinMlk (talk) 19:41, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

All relevant details are now covered in the Arvind Khanna and Vipin Khanna articles. This comment is a note that this article should now be deleted and redirected to Vipin Khanna. Rvsingh12 (talk) 23:33, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree with NitinMlk's proposal - merge this into Arvind Khanna and Vipin Khanna articles. As for Khanna (clan), it should be reverted back to Khanna (name) technically, for being an un-discussed move, but if we are going to keep Khanna (clan) for some reason, we can put a note here stating -

* Bellow is a list of people bearing the surname Khanna who may or may not belong to the clan

or something similar. That way we may stay within the limits of WP:BLP WP:CASTEID WP:CASTEID. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:58, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Fylindfotberserk, we keep clan-related details with a BLP note when the article's title is ambiguous or a source specifically mentions clan-related details while describing the surname. The first scenario isn't applicable here because there are several Khanna articles and there is no ambiguity. But the second one is true because a source mentions the clan while describing the surname. So please revert the move and add the BLP note. We will also need to add Khanna Omarkhali under the Given name section of the Khanna (name). - NitinMlk (talk) 21:01, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

NitinMlk,  Done Moved back to Khanna (name). Please do the needful changes. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 08:57, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I will fix it whenever I will edit next time. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:44, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

• Hello, Bishonen. Can you please delete this article's revision history? The page has been redirected as per the above consensus and the relevant details have already been merged with Vipin Khanna and Arvind Khanna. - NitinMlk (talk) 19:37, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

• Because the history contains BLP violations? OK, I've revision deleted the whole thing excepting only your blanking + redirect. I have left this talkpage where it was, as redirecting it would have lost a lot of discussion, not least the merge discussion. For the convenience of readers of Vipin Khanna, I've copypasted the discussion here on to its (previously almost bare) talkpage. Bishonen | tålk 20:52, 7 September 2024 (UTC).

Bishonen, there are many Khanna families on WP, including those of notable Bollywood actors like Rajesh Khanna and Vinod Khanna, both of whom are neither related to each other nor to this family. If we look at Google News – e.g. see here, here, or here – nearly all the 'Khanna family' results are about the Bollywood families of Rajesh Khanna and Vinod Khanna. In short, the 'Khanna family' redirect to Vipin Khanna will only confuse readers. So the redirect should be deleted, as we have already done the merger here. - NitinMlk (talk) 22:09, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

You know, I feel this is all getting rather irregular. As you say, you and Rvsing12 (the creator of the article) have already done a merge per consensus in this discussion, Rvsing12 with his moves of relevant material from Khanna family into Vipin Khanna and you with your turning Khanna family into a redirect. All that remains is to delete this article and to give everybody the correct credit for their work. Since generally the bits from Khanna family that Rvsingh12 (the main contributor to both articles) has moved to Vipin Khanna were written by himself, I hope no extra information in the form of "Merged content from Khanna family" is necessary in most of the edit summaries. (In case something you've merged is not your own text, Rvsingh12, you'd better add that extra info by using a Dummy edit.)

So, I will undo all my ill-considered revdeleting and delete Khanna family per the merge consensus here, leaving it as a redirect in the usual way, without its history, and leaving this talkpage with its significant discussion as it is. I understand what you say about the confusing nature of the title Khanna family, NitinMlk, but it feels safer to do this in two steps. If you feel the redirect I'm leaving shouldn't exist, you can propose deleting it at WP:RFD, explaining about the confusing title the way you do above. Bishonen | tålk 10:31, 8 September 2024 (UTC).

Bishonen, thanks! - NitinMlk (talk) 19:23, 9 September 2024 (UTC)