Talk:Kazimir Malevich/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Kazimir Malevich. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Vandalizm

Someone made serious vandal-edits to this page. I have reverted those and returned the text to it's original, but please, keep aneye on it. Esspecialy on the History, the vandal edits might be small edits which dont look insulting but on purpous misswrite the facts of his biography. 132.66.160.171 05:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Re-direct

I don't know how to create a re-direct, but could someone do for this article for Malewicz and Kazimierz Malewicz, as right now they just lead to the search page. Podagrycznik (talk) 18:55, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

IRWIN

Would it be appropriate to add a "See also" link to IRWIN for their 1992 homage Black Square on Red Square? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:02, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Please do not add trivial stuff to Malevich's quotation, whoever it is since 16 February 2006. paula clare 15:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

link-IRWIN added paula clare 20:36, 19 March 2006 (UTC) I think the picture for "White on White" is upside down. Should this page include information about the heirs suit that they won against the Stedelijk museum? It was the basis for that recent sale at Sothebys ($60m)

The image for "White on White" is indeed upside down. Is it possible to edit this? Heterodiamond (talk) 21:05, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think you are right — it may be upside down. I find this here. Bus stop (talk) 01:02, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Malevich: was he ever sent to the gulag? My professor said this recently but I can't find any independent verification of this.

No, he was not. He died to early: two years before the Great Purge. Before this they had to have at least some reasons to arrest people. Alex Bakharev 07:26, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Black Square Date

When was Black Square actually painted? The article contradicts itself, saying both 1915 and 1913, but this lapse is fair given that he resigned his work. 211.28.246.119 (talk) 05:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Malevich painted at least four versions of Black Square beetween 1915 to the early 1930s.[1] Klassikkomies (talk) 20:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

The first version was painted in 1915 and is exposed at Tretyakov gallery. So the picture in the article is totally wrong, check out the article in Russian: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D1%91%D1%80%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.66.152.3 (talk) 15:20, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

WP:DUE and WP:POV

I believe that the recent edits by UAKasper violate the WP:DUE and WP:POV rules by pushing an insignificant Ukrainian POV in the lede calling Malevich a Ukrainian painter and using Ukrainian sources such as an article in the Ukrainian weekly Den′ and an article authored by a Ukrainian scholar Myroslava M. Mudrak in The Ukrainian Weekly. Independent reliable authoritative sources free from bias such such Britannica, The Columbia Encyclopedia and many others from all over the world identify him as a Russian painter. So I believe we should write what the latter sources, which are a vast majority, say, rather than to use a narrow bias from the press in the lede. --glossologist (talk) 16:44, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

[born] 23 February 1879, previously 1878: see below

Obviously, some sort of further explanation is needed, but (as far as I can see) there is none. --FoxyOrange (talk) 15:55, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Belarusian or Polish ethnicity

It looks like we have a new edit war over whether Malevich was a Belarusian or a Pole. The conflict is more difficult due to that the notion of a Belarusian ethnicity separate from Polish or Russian was not very popular at the time of Malevich birth. Roman-Catholic people born in modern Belarus would be considered Poles and Eastern Orthodox people would be considered Russian or perhaps Lithuanians. At the end of Malevich's life the notion of Belarusian ethnicity was very strong and at the time of the Great Terror might mean the difference between life and death (ethnic Poles were one of the main targets of the Great Terror).

Now we have a very solid source stating that Malevich's parents were Poles. We do not know whether the source meant it in the modern sense or in the 19th century sense (that would include ethnic Belarusians and Ukrainians). We cannot alter the words source and change Poles into Belarusians - it will be an original research. On the other hand we have also a pretty reliable source stating that Malevich himself identified as a Belarusian. We do not know whether it meant that Malevich's parents self-identified themselves as Belarusian, whether he was just felt inclination to Belarusian people or whether he secretly consider himself as a Pole but stated otherwise to hide from persecutions. We do not know. We still cannot ignore a notable source about his self-identification. Lets incorporate the info from both sources as much as possible. Any additional information will be appreciated.

Now my proposal:

In the lead link Russian to Russian Empire so not to create impressions that we claim he is an ethnic Russian. Remove "of Belarusian origin" as this is controversial and anyway we usually not put ethinicity in the lead.
In the Early life section use both sources, lets the reader be informed.
In the categories add applicable Russian, Belarusian, Polish, Ukrainian categories. they are not exclusive.

Alex Bakharev (talk) 03:29, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

This is fine except for one problem: this claim of Belarusian identity is supported only by sources that cannot be checked by English-speaking readers. Malevich has been the subject of quite a bit of writing by reputable historians. Is there any reliable source in English that supports the claim? Ewulp (talk) 04:46, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Dear Ewulp, you appear to completely luck the necessary knowledge of the region and sensibility for the issues of national identity in multinational empires. Please, before you try to intervene and correct anything written on the issue, read "The Reconstruction of Nations" by Timothy Snyder, it should be a good introduction for you. You may also read a major book of your choice from Nationalism Studies (Hobsbawm, Brubaker, Anthony D. Smith etc.). Than procede to the books on Ethnic history and problems of identity. You may also find useful to improve general methodological preparation (such as learn to distinguish between primary and secondary sources) and learn the languages of the region (Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Russian - I know all of them) in order to be able to read the primary sources. Kiryl, PhD in Cultural History — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.31.226.175 (talk) 11:15, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Guys, please avoid personal attack, if you think a citation helps just put it here Alex Bakharev (talk) 23:43, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

An earnest search for sources supporting the Belarusian origin turned up nothing; instead here's Serge Fauchereau, Malevich, Rizzoli, 1993: "It is significant that Kasimir Severinovich Malevich should have been born of Polish descent in Kiev in the Ukraine in 1878. After the division of Poland in the eighteenth century, many Polish families were left stranded in Russia and the Ukraine, outside the new border which had been redrawn. This explains why the artist, who had been brought up in the Polish language, whether for amusement or for reasons of diplomacy, liked to present himself as a Pole and write his name in the Roman alphabet..." (p. 7). Another souce, Kazimir Malevich, 1878-1935, Armand Hammer Museum of Art and Cultural Centre in association with the University of Washington Press, 1990, states: "Both parents are of Polish descent" (p. 5). Troels Andersen writes in "Malevich, Kazimir" at Oxford Art Online: "His father was of Polish origin and worked in the sugar factories in Belopolye, but in 1896 the family moved to the Russian provincial town of Kursk..." Aleksandra Shatskikh and Marian Schwartz, in Black Square: Malevich and the Origin of Suprematism, 2012, have this: "The odd construction of this sentence ... arose because of a linguistic confusion between Russian and Malevich's native Polish. In his first language, zapomniceć means "to forget," and it sounds like Russian zapomniť—which, however, means "to remember"; on the other hand, the Polish for "remember," zapamentać, sounds like the Russian for "forget," zapamiatovať. It was characteristic of Malevich to confuse these words ...Therefore the native Pole's sentence beginning "If you remembered my curtain" in fact meant: "If you have forgotten my curtain..." (p. 51) Ewulp (talk) 03:51, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, the reference provided by our IP contributor looks solid, but it needs to be validated. If after 1 week no validation of the reference I think the corresponding sentences should be removed from the article Alex Bakharev (talk) 04:40, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Verification of Belarusian self-identity

I was trying to validate Belarusian selfidentification of Malevich but could not find any even marginally reliable sources by web/book searches (and searches in my home library). We certainly need to validate the sources cited. I am currently reside in Australia and it is difficult for me to access Родословие и предки К. С. Малевича // Малевич о себе. Современники о Малевиче. Авторы-составители И. А. Вакар, Т. Н. Михиенко. Т. 1. Москва, 2004. С. 372—385; and other book sources printed in Moscow and Belarus. Still I am a native Russian speaker and I guess I could validate the source and translate it into English. There are also plenty of Russian and Belarusian speaking wikipedians to help us with translation.

Whoever have access to book sources used, please scan them and send to abakharev@gmail.com (that is me) or put it somewhere on the web and give us the link. Web sources may also be useful. If the sources will not be validated in a week I think we should remove the info. Meanwhile I removed word mistakenly - no sources for that.

BTW what is wrong with Polish and Russian been Malevich's native languages? The info is sources and was not challenged, I am to restore irAlex Bakharev (talk) 23:43, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Validation of the sources regarding Belarusian self-identification of Malevich were not provided in two weeks. I have to comment the relevant sentence out. Please do not re-insert it unless you can validate the paper source (or provide reliable online source or easily accessible English-language sources) Alex Bakharev (talk) 00:02, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

"Casimir"

This article seems to avoid mentioning that he has been often known in English under the spelling "Casimir"... AnonMoos (talk) 17:30, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

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Self Portrait as initial image

I think it used to be there. It seems better to me than the photograph, so I moved that to his early life.♥ L'Origine du monde ♥ ^{♥ Talk♥} 01:48, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 April 2022

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Malevich was a Ukrainian artist born and raised in Ukraine in a Polish-Ukrainian family. source: https://m.day.kyiv.ua/en/article/time-out/kazimir-malevich-ukrainian-roots-his-avant-garde-art 31.43.249.61 (talk) 19:15, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. This is clearly a thing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:26, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Untitled

To User:Down on the corner: can you clarify why you removed the comments regarding powerty and prosecution? The comments you removed appear factually correct. Gene s 11:00, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

IRWIN

Would it be appropriate to add a "See also" linking to IRWIN for their 1992 homage Black Square on Red Square? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:02, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Nationality

Sorry, but do you guys know that "Russian Empire" and "Soviet Union" is not a nationality, right? This is citizenship. And the most strange for me was to see that "he was russian" and his native languages were "polish and russian". And no ukrainian. Really? Was born in Kyiv in 1878, all early live lived in ukrainian villages and ukrainian wasn't native language, but russian was? Is there some sources of this (again no offence, but this is very strange)?

For my points here's one of his autobiographic notes (yeah, written in ukrainian, strange isn't), where he descibes himself as ukrainian:

original: “…Це був Лев Квачевський. Він був студентом пейзажного класу Академії мистецтв у Петербурзі. День у день ходили ми з ним на етюди влітку, навесні і зимою, верстов по тридцять за день. Цілу дорогу сперечалися. Припиняли суперечку тільки тоді, коли сідали полуднювати. Згадували Україну. Він та я були українці.”

translation: "... This was Lev Kvachevsky. He was student of landscape class of Petersbug's arts academy. From day to day we walked with him to etudes in summer, spring and winter, for about 30 kilometers a day. Whole road we argued. We stopped arguing only when were going for dinner. Remembered Ukraine. He and me were ukrainians".

And Ukrainian is real nationality, not citizenship like "Russian Empire" or "Soviet Union", which is completely stupid. So, will this be fixed somehow? Thx. Sandric (talk) 00:24, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

It is important to decolonize Ukrainian art 71.34.90.171 (talk) 08:24, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Kiev was within the Russian Empire in 1879. Although artcyclopedia calls him Ukrainian, Malevich is Russian according to Oxford Art Online, britannica.com, Getty Union List of Artist Names, MoMA website and publications, Guggenheim website, Art Institute of Chicago website, Penguin Concise Dictionary of Art History, and Dictionary of 20th Century Art. Ewulp (talk) 04:14, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia follows sources. See WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Ty 20:06, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you think that being within Russian Empire means all people in this empire were russian then, well, you wrong, it consisted of different nationalities. Just like today's Russia consists of Russians, Chechens, Tatars and other nationalities. Yeah, there were Poles in Russia Empire, and Ukrainians, what you saying is citizenship, and not nationality. Totally different notions. Point that Malevich was ukrainian (at least described himself as ukrainian in ukrainian languge) upper. Please, stop making those strange assumptions about russian empire means russian nationality. Malevich can be or Polish (by father, mother is as I know not known nationality, but from Poltava, which is Ukraine), or ukrainian, because he described himself as one. But russian - very unlikely, and I need to see some proof of that. Sandric (talk) 00:39, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

People, I'm new to wiki so pardon if i'm not doing it in the right way. The following

Ukrainian: Казимир Северинович Малевич [kazɪˈmɪr sɛwɛˈrɪnɔwɪtʃ mɑˈlɛwɪtʃ]

Is plain wrong. Both spelling and transcription are Russian not Ukrainian. It is spelled and pronounced completely different in Ukrainian. I changed it to Russian a few times but someone is reverting the change. Therefore I'm doing it once again and asking an ethnical Ukrainian to add Ukrainain spelling to the entry if it is needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.188.236.136 (talk) 23:28, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

The spelling Казимир Северинович Малевич is used on Ukrainian Wiki and in a few Ukrainian-language sources there. I assumed people there know Ukrainian language. I have restored lang-uk here. Alex Bakharev (talk) 00:41, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

[kazɪˈmɪr sɛwɛˈrɪnɔwɪtʃ mɑˈlɛwɪtʃ] is undoubtedly the Ukrainian pronunciation, see WP:IPA for Ukrainian. Although, maybe it would make more sense to move it to Wiktionary. The same applies to the Belarusian and German names as well. --Glebchik (talk) 05:58, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

As ethnical Ukrainian I can confirm that it is Ukrainian spelling and transcription.

A news story about this article

See here: https://www.lawfareblog.com/war-over-ukraine-wikipedia. 73.239.233.137 (talk) 14:50, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

OK, so this person does not understand WP policies. Any actual news? Mellk (talk) 18:17, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 August 2022

This edit request to Kazimir Malevich has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Malevich is a Ukrainian artist, born in Kyiv and has a Ukrainian surname 46.119.118.107 (talk) 14:18, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

This is not exactly what reliable sources say. Ymblanter (talk) 14:37, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. See discussions above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:05, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

His surname was Polish Marcelus (talk) 20:24, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Kyiv- not Kiev god damn

fix it 91.142.160.69 (talk) 13:19, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

since this is a historical figure, we use the name of the city as it was known in English at the time, which is Kiev. If Malevich had been born in 2021 we would use Kyiv but this is not the case.Jaguarnik (talk) 03:05, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

The name of the city didn't change. It was and still is Київ. The correct way of transliterating Київ is Kyiv. Why does it matter how was it known in English at the time? 45.14.29.160 (talk) 11:18, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

There is a WP consensus to use Kiev in historical contexts so this cannot be changed: Talk:Kyiv/Archive 9#RfC: Kyiv/Kiev in other articles. Mellk (talk) 16:33, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm glad I checked this talk page before changing Kiev to Kyiv. But is Wikipedia consistent on this point? The article Spelling of Shakespeare's name seems to prefer the modern spelling, but justifies it on the dubious ground that it was the most common spelling of his name in his day. I find Wikipedia's insistence on the historical spelling both jarring and poorly defined. Vaughan Pratt (talk) 12:05, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2022

This edit request to Kazimir Malevich has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Malevich was an Ukrainian artist, not a Russian artist. Please change "Russian" to "Ukrainian". Stop the cultural erasure of Ukrainian heritage by assigning them to Russia. 213.124.107.170 (talk) 17:37, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime (open channel) 17:39, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia sucks(?)

I see all this topics about changing of very important parts of Kazimirs biography, but although i see, that some stupid bastards just continue to have pro russian opinion, and I'm sure, that they don't even saw even one of those. They just continue this "not changing" politics. 156.17.239.162 (talk) 10:30, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Sure, of course everybody who disagrees with you is a stupid bastard. A brilliant argument. Very typical for a certain group of internet trolls. Ymblanter (talk) 10:47, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Kazimir Malevich was Ukrainian

Malevich was never Russian. 2A00:23C4:5B81:A701:C905:B875:E840:BFF6 (talk) 07:07, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 December 2022

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"Malevich would later write a series of articles in Ukrainian about art, and identified as Ukrainian." And, he was Polish by ethnc background - yet in the very first sentence of the article he is introduced as a contributor to *Russian* avantguard. How does that makes sense? If you must attribute him to some national type of avant-garde, say it was Ukrainian - or just say avant-garde. In the end of 2022, this blunder is more noticeable than ever. 108.162.130.195 (talk) 23:23, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.

Based on the information given in the Wiki article and discussion on the editing pages, the changes to be made are to remove "Russian" from: Kazimir Severinovich Malevich[nb 1] (23 February [O.S. 11 February] 1879[1] – 15 May 1935) was a Russian avant-garde artist and art theorist to Kazimir Severinovich Malevich[nb 1] (23 February [O.S. 11 February] 1879[1] – 15 May 1935) was an avant-garde artist and art theorist

RealAspects (talk) 06:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Question: Why? M.Bitton (talk) 22:43, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Russian avant-garde is the name of the art movement, based on the fact it was contained within the Russian Empire. It is mentioned later in the same paragraph that some consider him a part of the separate Ukrainian avant-garde movement. There are edits changing this back-and-forth, hence it is not an uncontroversial change. GiovanniSidwell (talk) 17:59, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 January 2023

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Malevich was an Ukrainan artist. Not Russian. 84.212.196.139 (talk) 08:10, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Not done: see above sections for same requests Cannolis (talk) 09:12, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2023

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Firstly Kyiv, not Kiev.

Secondly not "russian artist", but "Ukrainian". Kazimir Malevich is a Ukrainian artist of polish origin. He identified himself as Ukrainian, all his work is based on reflection on Ukrainian culture and cannot be considered in isolation from it.

To call him a russian is imperialism, it's contradicts his personal self-image and erases all his art.

Here's what a researcher of his art says about it, and here's how museums around the world started decolonization process of Malevich.

http://en.uartlib.org/exclusive/malevich-ta-ukrayina/

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/6481 79.140.122.107 (talk) 20:55, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. ~ Eejit43 (talk) 01:23, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree with this. Kyiv is the correct spelling. I also agree that Malevich is a Ukrainian artist of polish origin. There are lots of references supporting both these statements in this "talk" page. Sinestro (talk) 23:29, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2023

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Change "Russian avant-garde" to "Polish-Ukrainian avant-garde" as he was ethically Polish and according to source [24]

he identified as Ukrainian. Petrchpetr (talk) 16:57, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. See discussion above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:31, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 February 2023

This edit request to Kazimir Malevich has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Hello,

Change 'Born in Kiev' to Born in Kyiv. Could 'Russian' also be removed from the first line as he was born in Kyiv. Suggest he is just referred to as 'an avant-garde artist' as he was born in Kyiv.

Thanks, Lucy Lucyjnoakes (talk) 16:31, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. See discussion above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:43, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 February 2023

This edit request to Kazimir Malevich has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change Russian artist to Ukrainian artist 2A02:1811:1C7E:C100:F0DC:9252:EFD2:7CCB (talk) 23:15, 10 February 2023 (UTC) https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2022/05/18/malevich-is-not-russian-activist-group-takes-to-instagram-to-demand-that-ukrainian-heritage-is-recognised A clarification article why Malevich is Ukrainian

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. PianoDan (talk) 17:11, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 February 2023

This edit request to Kazimir Malevich has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change : Nationality Russian Empire → Soviet Union to Citizenship Russian Empire → Soviet Union

Add : Nationality Ukrainian, Polish (which corresponds to the references given in the text [21-24]) Thrynova (talk) 17:47, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. M.Bitton (talk) 14:35, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Cultural appropriation

Speaking about Malevich as Russian is inappropriate. He was born in Kyiv, the capital of Ukraine, and his ethnicity is polish if I am not mistaken. So I would rather speak of him based on his polish ethnical roots rather than russian. You don’t say that Kafka is Austrian novelist because he died in Klosterneuburg. Sergesakhno (talk) 03:14, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Speaking about Malevich of Ukrainian is a cultural appropriation. The guy worked in Russia for almost the entire life, spoke Russian, and is internationally recognized as part of Russian avantguarde. Now, Ukraine has Boychuk, who is without any doubts an influential Ukrainian (not Russian) artist, but he is not sufficiently advertised, and Ukraine now wants to appropriate Malevich (and of course to make sure he is spelt malevych) to have an already widely advertised artist. Kafka btw is an Austrian novelist. Ymblanter (talk) 08:01, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree. He was born in Kyiv, which makes Malevich Ukrainian, not Russian. 2603:6011:3103:8C4A:1036:DD99:31C3:6B1 (talk) 17:10, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

He is in fact described as Ukrainian in a significant number of sources. And speaking Russian does not make him an ethnic Russian (ask Zalensky). Volunteer Marek 18:14, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

However working for the whole life in Saint-Pete arguably does. And please also check how many sources call him Russian. Ymblanter (talk) 18:18, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Ethnicity is not supposed to be mentioned in the lede. What is mentioned there is nationality. Ymblanter (talk) 18:19, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

For the record, this was the edit I reverted. Ymblanter (talk) 18:32, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

It just looks like WP:FOLLOWING by Volunteer Marek, unless there is plausible explanation? Mellk (talk) 19:06, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

More likely they have seen the ANI topic I opened. However, we might indeed collect sources (not just Google snippets) which call him Russian and Ukrainian, evaluate their reliability, and see what we should write in the lede. Ymblanter (talk) 19:17, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I was thinking that may have been the case, though it just seems strange to me that he came to this article soon after adding a tag on Simferopol where there is a different dispute where I am involved. Anyway, yes it is probably best to collect sources and see, before making any changes to the lead. Mellk (talk) 19:31, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Lol, I've had this article on my watchlist since at least 2015 [2]. Hell, I remember when the arguments were over whether Kazimierz Malewicz was Polish or not! Volunteer Marek 20:57, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

OK, understood. The timing just seems odd to me, especially since there have been a lot of changes by driveby editors now, especially in the past several months which has required the article to be protected for the fifth time now. Mellk (talk) 21:07, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Honestly, I think the underlying problem is with the term Russian avant-garde and the inclusion of all sorts of not-really-Russian people under this heading. This itself is an outdated reflection of both Western orientalism which sees all non-Balkan Slavs as "some variety of Russian" (similar to how Western racists perceive all "Asian" people to mean "Chinese") and 19th century Russian chauvinism and nationalism ("all Slavic rivers flowing into the Russian sea" and all that). So that account that got blocked was not entirely wrong and I see where they're coming from. The issue for us as an encyclopedia is that sources do indeed speak of a "Russian avant-garde" and we follow sources, even if they're outdated. But... this is indeed an outdated, "colonizer" term. Almost all of the "Russian"-avant-garde were Ukrainian or Jewish or... French. Volunteer Marek 21:02, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Not necessarily, I do not think Varvara Stepanova was not Russian. But the point is that they were really a group of artists and they were based in what is now Russia. Specifically, Malevich, though born in Kiev, left it young and lived his whole life in St. Petersburg. The blocked account was talking about his ethnicity, which is an entirely different issue. Ymblanter (talk) 21:18, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 October 2022

This edit request to Kazimir Malevich has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Describing Malevich as "a Russian avant-garde artist and art theorist", stating his "Nationality" as "Russian" and ignoring the Kyiv Art School as his first place of education supports claims made by Russian critics, who describe all art created in the post-Soviet countries as Russian. https://uacrisis.org/en/53524-malevych-2

According to the French critic Jean-Claude Marcadé, the only reason why Malevich is called a “Russian avant-garde” artist is because "no Russian art critics accepts this approach [of Ukrainian avant-garde being self-sufficient phenomenon]” https://ukrainianweek.com/Culture/87314

Why Malevich should be considered a Ukrainian Artist?

Malevich self-identified himself as Ukrainian in his autobiography. He wrote:

“Lev Kvachevsky was my very closest friend. my very closest friend. We couldn’t live without each another.... We’d walk thirty versts every day in summer, spring, and winter for our sketch sessions, arguing all the way.... We’d discuss other matters when we ate, or reminisce about the Ukraine. He and I both were Ukrainians.”

The reference along with the original source can be found here: https://umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/departments/german_and_slavic/media/Reinterpreting_Malevich_CASS_2002(1).pdf (p.408)

His admiration for Ukraine and in particularly Kyiv is clearly stated in his autobiography:

“With each year I improved in this activity and grew more and more strongly drawn to Kiev. The colorful brick houses, the hills, the Dnieper, the distant horizon and steamships. Its whole life affected me more and more. The peasant girls would cross the Dnieper in canoes, carrying butter, milk and sour cream, covering the shores and streets of Kiev. and giving it a special color.”

“I lived far from the Prospect i in a very nice little Ukrainian house surrounded by a garden. I painted my first picture, Moonlit Night (Lunnaya Noch}. I painted mostly according to my impressions, as I had done in Belopolye. “ ("Belopolye" (Ukrainian "Bilopillia") - city in Sumy Oblast, Ukraine )

https://www.jstor.org/stable/778487

His first studied painting from Mykola Pymonenko, Ukrainian painter, at the Kyiv Art School (1895–1897), better known as the "School of Murashko". Pymonenko has visibly influenced his early art, according to Jean-Claude Marcadé. https://www.husj.harvard.edu/articles/kyiv-the-capital-of-modernity-at-the-turn-of-the-twentieth-century

In late 1920s Kazimir Malevich became a lecturer at the Kyiv Art Institute. https://msl.org.pl/malevich-in-kyiv-astonishing-return-a-lecture-by-tetyana-filevska/

He only started started studying in the Moscow school of paining when as he turned 36. Krispe13 (talk) 21:16, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —Sirdog (talk) 23:06, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

National origin

Why is the artist identified as a Russian artist, when born in Kyiv and Ukraine, two are Ukrainian and Polish couple? 68.134.139.2 (talk) 21:55, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Because he lived in Russia for most of is life, his career is associated with Russia, and unaffiliated reliable sources describe him as Russian artist. Ymblanter (talk) 22:01, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

non mention in body of article of his russian education, influences, residence and work environment.

while there is mention of conflicting claims for him from poland and ukraine, based on dubious evidence ( for example, in contrast to article here, only very few of his works are signed in polish spelling of his name, and he rarely claimed any connection to kiev) fact remains he chose to stay in russia and work there. almost all his works were in russia. this article is a prime example wikipedia becoming mouthpiece of racist propaganda. 2402:4000:2281:252E:2913:B105:F008:6BC9 (talk) 01:20, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Hotbed of Anonymous/POV/Subjective Edits Removing Mention of Anything 'Ukrainian'

Kazimir Malevich, was born in Ukraine, spoke Ukrainian and self-identified as such, satisfying every tenet of belonging to a nation or culture, yet this does not allay ceaseless and nonsensical attempts to remove any mention of his academically and historically established links to Ukraine. Hence, I suggest that an artistic figures right to self-identify be respected and treated as sacrosanct, as it is the most accurate source for which to describes someones origins, it certainly demands inclusion in the introduction. I am also in agreement with other opinions expressed in the talk page, archaec transliteration of 'Kiev' should be changed to 'Kyiv' where possible.@LeviFreiglichter LeviFreiglichter (talk) 08:38, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

His Ukrainian identification is already mentioned in the lead and in the main body. No need to add more on that Marcelus (talk) 09:50, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

I did not know he was Ukrainian, but reading Irina Vakar it looks like he felt that way, I think his family being Polish important but not more important than how he felt himself, no? If him being Polish is mentioned twice in the introduction and he was born in Ukraine and categorized himself as that then the fact he categorized himself as 'Ukrainian' should be mentioned in the introduction more than just saying he 'Polish-Ukrainian Russian' and part of the Ukrainian avante garde'. It misses the main point I think-that ultimately Malevich identified himself as Ukrainian. Otherwise no need to mention 'ethnic Polish family' in the intro if the way he actually believed himself is excluded to early life, if anything the ethnic origins of his family should be in early life not what he himself feel.Yeon Hyun-woo (talk) 07:50, 27 July 2022 (UTC)Yeon Hyun-woo

MALEVICH WAS NOT RUSSIAN!!! Richerboss (talk) 12:59, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU. Ymblanter (talk) 13:10, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

What reliable sources? You're ignoring many peer-reviewed articles that are given in this page. Sinestro (talk) 14:19, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Malevich considered himself as Ukrainian

Firstly Kyiv, not Kiev.

Secondly not "russian artist", but "Ukrainian". Kazimir Malevich is a Ukrainian artist of Polish origin. He identified himself as Ukrainian, all his work is based on reflection on Ukrainian culture and cannot be considered in isolation from it.

To call him a russian is imperialism, it's contradicts his personal self-image and erases all his art.

Here's what a researcher of his art says about it.

http://en.uartlib.org/exclusive/malevich-ta-ukrayina/

And here's how museums around the world started decolonization process of Malevich's figure. https://www.kyivpost.com/post/6481 79.140.122.107 (talk) 20:58, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Nationality continued. First sentence change request

This edit request to Kazimir Malevich has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change X to Y

Please change first sentence X:

[...] was a Russian avant-garde artist and art theorist, whose pioneering work and writing had a profound influence on the development of abstract art in the 20th century.

to sentence Y:

[...] was a Ukrainian artist and theorist, prominent figure of Ukrainian and Russian avant-garde, whose pioneering work and writing had a profound influence on the development of abstract art in the 20th century.

Why Malevich should be considered a Ukrainian Artist?

Malevich self-identified himself as Ukrainian in his autobiography. He wrote:

“Lev Kvachevsky was my very closest friend. my very closest friend. We couldn’t live without each another.... We’d walk thirty versts every day in summer, spring, and winter for our sketch sessions, arguing all the way.... We’d discuss other matters when we ate, or reminisce about the Ukraine. He and I both were Ukrainians.” ^[1]. The reference along with the original source can be found here: (p.408)

His admiration for Ukraine and in particularly Kyiv is clearly stated in his autobiography:

“With each year I improved in this activity and grew more and more strongly drawn to Kiev. The colorful brick houses, the hills, the Dnieper, the distant horizon and steamships. Its whole life affected me more and more. The peasant girls would cross the Dnieper in canoes, carrying butter, milk and sour cream, covering the shores and streets of Kiev. and giving it a special color.”

“I lived far from the Prospect i in a very nice little Ukrainian house surrounded by a garden. I painted my first picture, Moonlit Night (Lunnaya Noch}. I painted mostly according to my impressions, as I had done in Belopolye.“ ^[2] ("Belopolye" (Ukrainian "Bilopillia") - city in Sumy Oblast, Ukraine ).

He only started started studying in the Moscow school of paining when as he turned 36.

Describing Malevich as "a Russian avant-garde artist and art theorist", stating his "Nationality" as "Russian" and ignoring the Kyiv Art School as his first place of education supports claims made by Russian critics, who describe all art created in the post-Soviet countries as Russian ^[3]

According to the French critic Jean-Claude Marcadé, the only reason why Malevich is called a “Russian avant-garde” artist is because "no Russian art critics accepts this approach "of Ukrainian avant-garde being self-sufficient phenomenon]” ^[4]

See a couple of topics above, cherry-picked sources, and a sock.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:25, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

See post: Semi-protected edit request on 16 October 2022.

Nobody has disproved any of these points. Sinestro (talk) 15:30, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

There are 209 new articles found on Google Scholar with keyword "Ukraine and Malevich" published since 2022. Do you consider these cherry-picked sources? Sinestro (talk) 15:35, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

I found out what "sock" means. This is a false accusation! (talk) 23:18, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

References

^ "Shkandrij, Myroslav. "Reinterpreting Malevich: Biography, Autobiography, Art." Canadian-American Slavic Studies 36.4 (2002): 405-420" (PDF). Retrieved 16 January 2023.
^ "Malevich, Kazimir, and Alan Upchurch. "Chapters from an Artist's Autobiography." October, vol. 34, 1985, pp. 25–44. JSTOR,". Retrieved 16 January 2023.
^ "Filevsʹka, Teti︠a︡na, and Wendy R. Salmond, eds. Kazimir Malevich: Kyiv Period, 1928-1930: Articles, Documents and Letters. RODOVID, 2017". Retrieved 16 January 2023.
^ "Kazimir Malevich and Ukrainian Avant-garde". Retrieved 16 January 2023.

Semi-protected edit request on 25 February 2023

This edit request to Kazimir Malevich has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change "Russian" artist to "Ukrainian" artist, as he was born in Kyiv in Polish family who lived un Ukraine for generations. He lived and worked in Ukraine, not only in Russia. He spoke and wrote his works in Ukrainian, and considered himself Ukrainian. 109.250.235.212 (talk) 22:50, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Where? GiovanniSidwell (talk) 18:02, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 March 2023

This edit request to Kazimir Malevich has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Kazimir Malevich was Ukrainian and not Russian. He lived in Ukraine and identified himself as Ukrainian. Kseniia2 (talk) 17:43, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Not done: Anachronistic. Ukraine did not exist as an independent country at the time. Skyerise (talk) 17:49, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2023

This edit request to Kazimir Malevich has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

46.211.69.63 (talk) 05:42, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

The artist was born and have been working in Ukraine. It’s not “Russian” but “Ukrainian” artist!!!

Not done: Although he was indeed born in modern-day Ukraine, it was at the time of his birth a part of the Russian Empire, and at the time of his death he resided in the USSR, in modern-day Russia. Tollens (talk) 08:23, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Nationality of Malevich

I consider words "russian avant-garde artist" incorrect. Malevich was born in Ukraine, lived there, and what's most important he made artworks dedicated to Holodomor and suffering of Ukrainian people under russian oppression so considering him russian is absolutely not right. 37.166.205.58 (talk) 11:06, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, but academic sources outside of Ukraine disagree with you. Ymblanter (talk) 11:44, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Can you name any academic non-russian source which confirms this?

Malevich was Ukrainian artist and Ukrainian avangard artist. Below are the peer-reviewed academic sources.

Malevich self-identified himself as Ukrainian in his autobiography. He wrote:

“Lev Kvachevsky was my very closest friend. my very closest friend. We couldn’t live without each another.... We’d walk thirty versts every day in summer, spring, and winter for our sketch sessions, arguing all the way.... We’d discuss other matters when we ate, or reminisce about the Ukraine. He and I both were Ukrainians.” ^[1]. The reference along with the original source can be found here: (p.408)

His admiration for Ukraine and in particularly Kyiv is clearly stated in his autobiography:

“With each year I improved in this activity and grew more and more strongly drawn to Kiev. The colorful brick houses, the hills, the Dnieper, the distant horizon and steamships. Its whole life affected me more and more. The peasant girls would cross the Dnieper in canoes, carrying butter, milk and sour cream, covering the shores and streets of Kiev. and giving it a special color.”

“I lived far from the Prospect i in a very nice little Ukrainian house surrounded by a garden. I painted my first picture, Moonlit Night (Lunnaya Noch}. I painted mostly according to my impressions, as I had done in Belopolye.“ ^[2] ("Belopolye" (Ukrainian "Bilopillia") - city in Sumy Oblast, Ukraine ).

He only started started studying in the Moscow school of paining when as he turned 36.

Describing Malevich as "a Russian avant-garde artist and art theorist", stating his "Nationality" as "Russian" and ignoring the Kyiv Art School as his first place of education supports claims made by Russian critics, who describe all art created in the post-Soviet countries as Russian ^[3]

According to the French critic Jean-Claude Marcadé, the only reason why Malevich is called a “Russian avant-garde” artist is because "no Russian art critics accepts this approach "of Ukrainian avant-garde being self-sufficient phenomenon]” ^[4] Sinestro (talk) 14:17, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Here is the first non-Russian academic source I found in less than a minute: Malevich and Interwar Modernism: Russian Art and the International of the Square, by Éva Forgács, Bloomsbury, 2022, ISBN 9781350204195. There are hundreds of sources like this. Ymblanter (talk) 14:24, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

This source simply refers to Malevich as russian artist. I checked the book, and she never discusses the origin of the artist nor his self identification. I spent more than a minute to verify this. Sinestro (talk) 14:55, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Which is exactly the point. If existing academic literature characterized Malevich as a Russian artist (actually, a leader of the Russian Avantgarde), his origin and self-identification does not matter. They have been added to the article though. He is of Polish origin. Ymblanter (talk) 15:06, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

And this is 2022, you can not even claim she does not know what Ukraine is. Ymblanter (talk) 15:07, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

It is already 2023, not 2022 :) But, I'm sure that Dr Forgacs started working on the book long before the full-scale russian invasion!

Please see my request below: change the first sentence of the article, and clearly state that Malevich was Ukrainian artist.

There are a number of newer articles, that specificly tackle the question of re-positioning Malevich according to the newly discovered documents and to his own word. Sinestro (talk) 15:11, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

I opposed the request, first because way more sources call him Russian artist, and second because you are evading a block. Ymblanter (talk) 15:16, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't see that the request was blocked. where can I find that? I wrote here simply to support the claim, not to avoid the block.

Nationality: Russian Empire → Soviet Union is wrong. The correct term here is citizenship. The Soviet passport's had special entry for nationality: russians, kazakh etc. Sinestro (talk) 15:25, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

You're physicist, you must know that many theories were once held as true by majority. This doesn't make them irrefutable and iternal. Sinestro (talk) 15:28, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

More and more museums around the world acknowledge the ukrainian origin of Malevich. There are more and more news like this:

https://www.weltkunst.de/kunstwissen/2023/03/stedelijk-warum-malewitsch-jetzt-ukrainer-ist Sinestro (talk) 09:58, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

what a smart and reasonable guy Bigshlomo (talk) 23:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

References

^ "Shkandrij, Myroslav. "Reinterpreting Malevich: Biography, Autobiography, Art." Canadian-American Slavic Studies 36.4 (2002): 405-420" (PDF). Retrieved 16 January 2023.
^ "Malevich, Kazimir, and Alan Upchurch. "Chapters from an Artist's Autobiography." October, vol. 34, 1985, pp. 25–44. JSTOR,". Retrieved 16 January 2023.
^ "Filevsʹka, Teti︠a︡na, and Wendy R. Salmond, eds. Kazimir Malevich: Kyiv Period, 1928-1930: Articles, Documents and Letters. RODOVID, 2017". Retrieved 16 January 2023.
^ "Kazimir Malevich and Ukrainian Avant-garde". Retrieved 16 January 2023.

Consensus

Hi @Mellk, Kazimir Malevich is Ukrainian. That is not a debatable statement. No consensus needed. Glad I could clear that up for you. Would you mind reverting your edit? Thanks. Bigshlomo (talk) 15:57, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

See above. Also please take the time to read the policies. Mellk (talk) 16:05, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Hello Mellk, my edit was in line with Wikipedia policies. Again, Malevich is Ukrainian, this isn’t something any amount of ”academic“ debate in a talk channel can change, nor is his identity something one’s personal beliefs can dictate. Please fix it Bigshlomo (talk) 17:18, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Maybe you should read WP:POV and WP:CON first. Mellk (talk) 17:19, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi Mellk, ”Editors who revert a change proposed by an edit should generally avoid terse explanations (such as "against consensus")“ Please explain your thinking, rather than simply shooting edits down. It comes across as you playing to an agenda. Bigshlomo (talk) 17:30, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Did you read the rest of that sentence? I already told you look above. Clearly there is no consensus to change the nationality. But then again you are already said no consensus needed. Mellk (talk) 17:48, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Again, Malevich being Ukrainian is not a debatable topic. You cannot “change“ his nationality through a consensus because his nationality is already known. Bigshlomo (talk) 17:56, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

The sources seem to disagree with you. Mellk (talk) 17:58, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

The ones from the century don’t! Bigshlomo (talk) 18:11, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

this* Bigshlomo (talk) 18:11, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

I can appreciate the confusion of his nationality due to the interchangeability of Russian and Ukrainian culture in 20th Century academia, but to deny his Ukrainian identity is plain academic dishonesty. Looking through the talk and edit history, you and a few other individuals have continued to cling to sources from a time period in which the distinction between Ukraine and Russia was barely realized. To deny the countless new sources and the self identification of Malevich himself isn’t just academic dishonesty, it’s outright disinformation. Bigshlomo (talk) 18:52, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Please also read WP:ASPERSIONS before making absurd claims. Mellk (talk) 20:11, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Hello Mellk, sorry about my absence. I wasn't making a claim, I was pointing out your behavior. To deny Malevich's self identification as an integral part of his identity and to stick it into a sub category for no one to see is disrespectful to Malevich and his legacy. I don't know why you've repeatedly refused to meet a consensus regarding this, myself and others in this talk page have offered logical and perfectly reasonable compromises. Both of us know that late Cold War era writing can't be used to distinguish Russian culture v Ukrainian one. If you continue to impede the consensus building process im going to bring this issue to a DRN. Bigshlomo (talk) 14:33, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

This does not follow MOS:CONTEXTBIO. Where is "self-identification" mentioned in the guidelines? If your argument is it is disrespectful, sorry, you are not going to convince anyone. The documents are already mentioned in the body, this does not belong in the lead. Of course your original claims of "consensus not required" is not a good look anyway. Mellk (talk) 19:26, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I’m a changed individual Mellk, I have come to understand the importance of consensuses in upholding Wikipedias rule based order. Anyways, MOS:CONTEXTBIO pretty clearly states that it is a guideline. We still have discretion in this matter. Also, self-identification is mentioned! If Russian born Isaac Asimov is listed as an American artist, it is implied that people who immigrate and continue to identify with their country of origin should be listed as so. It also insinuates that self identification is more of a factor in deciding nationality than you are making it out to be. Bigshlomo (talk) 23:03, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

This is part of the manual of style, which should generally be followed. Isaac Asimov's birthplace or heritage is not relevant to his notability so this is not mentioned. In this case nationality should be mentioned rather than ethnicity or birthplace. If you find that a lot of RS emphasise his birthplace then you can start a discussion on this. Mellk (talk) 19:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

I think you’re missed the point of my example in regards to self identification. However, I will say that my example of Asimov was a bad one. Because Asimov was 3 when he immigrated, he probably wasn’t influenced by his time in Russia. I cant say the same for Malevich, who (I’ve said it before but I’ll continue saying it) was born in Ukraine, spoke Ukrainian and wrote several works in Ukrainian, and who’s art was profoundly influenced by his time in Ukraine and aspects of Ukrainian society ranging from childhood until the Holodomor. Both in appearance and by his own admission. MOS:FIRSTBIO and MOS:LEADBIO state that the lead sentences should describe and summarize the life of an individual with due weight. In this case, Malevich’s Ukrainian identity is undoubtedly an integral part of his notability. Bigshlomo (talk) 21:36, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

If most RS call him a Russian artist, then this is not the case. There are other figures from this time who are instead called Ukrainian because it is relevant to their notability. He is also mentioned as Ukrainian-born in the first paragraph here which is already stretching it. Mellk (talk) 21:42, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

The majority of these sources either stem from or are older academic works which don’t recognize the difference between Ukraine and Russia, let alone their respective cultures. The sources used to justify Malevich as Russian can no longer in good conscious be used to describe him. The process of decolonizing Ukrainian culture is taking place, and new articles reflect that change. Bigshlomo (talk) 21:50, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

That does not sound accurate. Mellk (talk) 21:57, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

I’d be happy to help clear up whatever it is that you aren’t understanding Bigshlomo (talk) 22:10, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

All sources that you think say the incorrect thing cannot simply be dismissed. You have not shown that most of these sources are unreliable in this situation. Also if the so-called "decolonizing" process is ongoing then such a change cannot be made based on what sources might say in the future, see WP:CRYSTALBALL. Mellk (talk) 22:51, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

I don’t believe the sources say the wrong thing. I know the sources reflect beliefs which cannot be applied to this Wikipedia article. Sure, in 1980 it would have been fine to group Ukrainians as being Russian. The distinction wasn’t realized among the majority of academia, because it didn’t matter. It does now, we are aware of said distinction, and we have seen the decolonization of Ukrainian culture actively taking place for the greater part of the 21st century. I don’t know if you misunderstood me, or just wanted to throw a WP around. If so, see WP:NOTHERE Bigshlomo (talk) 23:33, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

If you are trying to say there was no such distinction in 1980, then sorry, but this is not true. You need to demonstrate that all these sources are unreliable rather than making these kind of blanket statements. The nationality was indeed Russian, this is not made up. And should not be confused with something else. Like I already said, the birthplace is already mentioned in the first paragraph. Mellk (talk) 20:17, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Almost all of the current sources simply list Malevich as being Russian. They don't look into the Cultural and artistic impact Ukraine had on Malevich, nor do they bring up his self identification or family history and usage of Ukrainian language. Just picking a handful of citations at random, 4, 11, 15, 16, 26, 34, and 47 are guilty of this. These sources are also very intertwined, use similar (if not the same) references, and each other in some cases. I found The Non-Objective World listed as reference in a lot of these sources, and if you're going to tell me that a source from 1959, just after the height of the Russification of Ukraine and the violent destruction of its culture can distinguish Russian culture to Ukrainian one... you need to take a break from Wikipedia. I even found RT's very own "Russiapedia" listed as a reference of Britannica (Which so happens to be another popular reference for a number of this article's citations). And yes, there very much was a blurry line of distinction for Ukrainian culture vs Russian one, even now. Here's just some of the information I found on the Failure to differentiate Russian and Ukrainian culture

"When Ukraine was subjugated by the Russian and Soviet empires, so was its culture and heritage.

As part of what is known as the Ukrainian genocide, the Soviet regime lead by Josef Stalin quashed a rising independence movement by purging cultural figures and outlawing the Ukrainian language"

"The Russification of Ukraine meant it was difficult to discern Ukrainian culture following independence in the early 1990s"

"In the media mainstream, few can discern whether an artwork was created in the Ukrainian, Georgian, Estonian, or the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic..."It just seems, to the general public, like Soviet art and therefore Russian.""

Or on the Interchanability of Russian and Ukrainian culture which continues to take place today

"Platt presents a fallacy that is tantamount to upholding the idea of the “Russian World” (russkii mir), a political brand or label heavily promoted by the Kremlin that appropriates as its own “anyone and anything Russian” beyond the borders of the Russian Federation."

"This sort of ruse to obfuscate the inflated use of “Russian” is nothing new. Platt seems utterly oblivious to, or ignorant of, the long history of Ukraine’s protestation of Russia’s imperialist appropriations of things Ukrainian."

"Michael Ignatieff, a prominent Canadian academic and politician whose Russian family was from Ukraine, frankly admitted that he had “difficulty in taking Ukraine seriously” and that he had “just a trace of old Russian disdain for these ‘little Russians’."

etcetera! Bigshlomo (talk) 22:33, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

If you're not going to make an attempt to reach consensus and instead stonewall me i'm just going to revert your edit and report you for edit warring. I'd also be happy to submit this issue to a DRN if you don't feel we can resolve this . Bigshlomo (talk) 14:59, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

See WP:BRD for example. If you are trying to repeatedly change long-standing text which has been discussed time after time, then that can be considered disruptive. Until you have consensus to change the nationality, it is not a good idea to go ahead and change it again. I have nothing else to add. Mellk (talk) 16:33, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

“I want you to reach a consensus but I’m actively refusing to reach a consensus”. Who do you want me to reach consensus with? You are the only other active member on this page, and the other ones who drop in tend to support the position of Malevich being Ukrainian. You are filibustering the consensus process by refusing to take part of the consensus process, but then shooting down the general consensus when it is reached. Bigshlomo (talk) 18:22, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Where is this general consensus? I see a number of driveby IPs/new accounts who did not cite policy and came as a result of online campaigns (probably also meatpuppetry). But this is not based on a vote. See WP:CON. Such edit requests were already answered. Mellk (talk) 07:22, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Since January 2023 there has been one proposal on this talk page to keep Malevich as Russian. Including this editor, there have only been 4 editors defending Malevich staying Russian. 2 of those no longer edit, 1 of them is no longer active on this page, and the other one is you. Listing Malevich as Ukrainian is clearly NOT a controversial decision. if you don't know what stonewalling is, its described as "repeatedly pushing a viewpoint with which the consensus of the community clearly does not agree, effectively preventing a policy-based resolution". For more, see WP:FILLIBUSTER. You've already stated you're not going to refute my points. A consensus "arrives with an absence of objections", and because you are not longer objecting, we have a consensus, correct? Bigshlomo (talk) 13:09, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

You are just refusing to WP:DROPTHESTICK. Mellk (talk) 15:48, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

No, I'm attempting to reach a consensus with a brick wall. You have been sticking to your viewpoint for over a year. Myself and the majority of other editors have given completely reasonable compromises and logical arguments which are in line with Wikipedia policies and evidence to go with them. Which you have repeatedly rejected through wikilawyering, or most recently, simply ignored. Bigshlomo (talk) 18:07, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

I have already given my argument. You keep claiming you have some kind of consensus, but there is no interest in this debate anymore. I do not have to agree with you. Let it go. Mellk (talk) 18:15, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

You don't have to agree, nor do I. That's what a compromise is. You have made no such effort. There is no more of a consensus on Malevich being Russian than him being Ukrainian. Bigshlomo (talk) 20:03, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

This article describes the POV pushing by a single Ukrainian person which resulted in MOMA's decision to label Malevich as Ukrainian.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:21, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
If you read the article you would know that what actually happened is that she presented her opinion to multiple experts and people far more knowledgeable on this topic than us, who then decided that Ukrainian was the most representative nationality. To describe that as “POV pushing” is really, really, pushing it. Bigshlomo (talk) 02:00, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
The fact that they went from "Russian" to "Ukrainian" to "Armenian" for Ivan Aivazovsky in a matter of days shows this is simply as a result of online campaigns and nothing to do with experts. Mellk (talk) 16:05, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
Please get out of the “anything I disagree with is propaganda” mindset Bigshlomo (talk) 16:45, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
The source provided shows one person being behind a campaign against those museums. Where did you get she presented her opinion to multiple experts... who then decided that Ukrainian was the most representative nationality from? Seems strange they change their mind so often. Mellk (talk) 16:48, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
"Oksana made a presentation". And that wasn't even in regards to Malevich. Do you genuinely think MOMA changed the nationality of an artist without discussing it because of pressure from a twitter account with a minimal following? No. The nice and qualified people at MOMA discussed the change and came to the conclusion that Malevich is, infact, Ukrainian. Bigshlomo (talk) 17:07, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
You did not read the text properly. Mellk (talk) 17:11, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
I don’t think I did. Bigshlomo (talk) 17:26, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

@Bigshlomo@Mellk@Ymblanter

The Stedelijk Museum in Amsterdam now describes Malevich as Ukrainian.

https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2023/03/01/russian-or-ukrainian-museums-update-kazimir-malevichs-nationality Sinestro (talk) 08:04, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
Yes, indeed. It is unfortunate that they preferred to submit to political pressure and ignore academic literature, but, well, there is still a large amount of academic literature which does not call him Ukrainian. Ymblanter (talk) 08:35, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
Funny that none of the editors pushing for "Ukrainian" has more than 100 edits. May be because those who have been here long enough get blocked as socks. Ymblanter (talk) 08:38, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
And why do you think that your decision to stand before so-called "political pressure" is valued more than decisions of people who work at the museums?

About number of edits: we all need to start somewhere. Your insults are not the right way to conduct a conversation WP:PA! Sinestro (talk) 08:47, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
It is not an insult, it is a statement of fact. There are too many quasi-Ukrainian sockmasters in the topic area, new socks get blocked on a regular basis, and you seem to be a sock of one of them. This makes any comprehensive content discussion extremely difficult. Ymblanter (talk) 08:59, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
I provided you a link to the article. You didn't take the article into account, but accused everybody (museum workers) into submission to the political pressure.

Also, you constantly attack the new-comers to the Wikipedia WP:DNB and WP:FAITH. In my opinion, you're not conducting a civil discourse. Sinestro (talk) 09:22, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes! Everything that goes again your worldview is propaganda! There is absolutely NO chance that museums and art institutions could possibly know more about art than you with your infinite knowledge Bigshlomo (talk) 13:48, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Kazimir Malevich is Ukrainian!!!!!

He wasn’t russian artist. He was half Ukrainian and half Poland ( his mother was Ukrainian, father - Poland). He was repressed by russia. 213.81.211.70 (talk) 21:55, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

We use citizenship, not ethnicity. He was born in the Russian Empire (Russian) and lived died in the USSR (Soviet). Per WP:ETHNICITY, parentage and parent's ethnicity are typically described in the early life section. The "nationality" in the lead sentence is the country of which the subject was a citizen. Those are our standards. Sorry they don't correspond to your anachronistic sensibilities. Skyerise (talk) 16:20, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Malevich is Ukrainian just as other Ukrainian politicians of the era are listed as Ukrainian; their Ukrainian identity is a key aspect of their notability. Besides identifying as Ukrainian, he was born in Ukraine, spoke Ukrainian and wrote several works in Ukrainian, and who’s art was profoundly influenced by his time in Ukraine and aspects of Ukrainian society ranging from childhood until the Holodomor. Both in appearance and by his own admission. MOS:FIRSTBIO and MOS:LEADBIO state that the lead sentences should describe and summarize the life of an individual with due weight. In this case, Malevich’s Ukrainian identity is undoubtedly an integral part of his notability. Myself and my very good friend @Mellk have already debated this topic and we came to the conclusion that Ukraine is key to his notability. He didn't explicitly agree with me but he stopped responding which is an admission of concession. You should read the section above this one. Bigshlomo (talk) 17:03, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

I did not say this. I said that "Ukrainian-born" is already mentioned later in the lead (which is already a stretch in regards to the MOS). Mellk (talk) 17:07, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

It's real simple - if Ukraine did not exist as an independent country during the subject's life, retroactively applying current national boundaries is anachronistic and make us look stupid. There's a guideline on this: we use the national boundaries which existed during the person's life. We don't use state names to describe people in the US, we call them American. Similarly, we use the name of any Empire or Union as they existed during the subject's life, not individual states (SSRs) within those boundaries. Historicity wins! Skyerise (talk) 17:36, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

This just isn’t true, but if it were, why are Taras Shevchenko, or Mykhailo Hrushevsky, or Volodymyr Vynnychenko listed as Ukrainian? I thought Ukraine wasn’t a real country during their lifetime. (Spoiler alert: it was) Bigshlomo (talk) 16:58, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

PS. Before you ask, we're not going to rename "Back in the U.S.S.R." to "Back in Georgia" either. LoL. Skyerise (talk) 17:42, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Nice Strawman Bigshlomo (talk) 16:59, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I added a paragraph which details the issue based on a reliable source.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:07, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't think there's a consensus for that Bigshlomo (talk) 12:49, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Nationality continued

The matter has been discussed extensively above. We follow reliable sources in describing Malevich as a Russian artist; ULAN for one example is considered authoritative [3]. For the spelling of his birthplace, Kyiv is now favored according to Talk:Kyiv/naming. Ewulp (talk) 01:04, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

The history shows continuous disruptive editing by IPs and newly created accounts making unsourced changes related to this. The page is currently semi-protected (and was semi-protected earlier) but I imagine that it will still continue after it expires. If it continues, long-term or indefinite semi-protection will probably be needed. In the case of Kyiv/Kiev, there is a consensus to use Kiev in historical contexts: Talk:Kyiv/Archive 9#RfC: Kyiv/Kiev in other articles. Mellk (talk) 02:18, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Why is he russian artist if he is Ukrainian, from Kyiv and he spoke Ukrainian language? 2003:E1:5748:F801:FD65:2178:8F5E:F5AF (talk) 11:47, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Because he was national of a nation called Russian Empire for most of his life. In Wikipedia, we primarily define people by their nationality, see WP:ETHNICITY. Vanjagenije (talk) 22:17, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Should we correct the nationality of the writer Jovan Sterija Popović? Because he was national of a nation called Habsburg Kingdom of Hungary for most of his life.

Therefore, according to your logic, he is not a Serbian writer, but a Hungarian one. Cesare Urbino (talk) 23:37, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I think soon we will start getting questions like why is Malevich listed as Russian if he was born in independent Ukrainian state to ethnic Ukrainian parents, never left Ukraine, and only spoke Ukrainian. People somehow get detached from reality. Ymblanter (talk) 07:37, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I think you are still living in an imaginary imperial reality with convenient sources manipulated to fit it.

Meanwhile, The Stedelijk Museum in Amsterdam now describes the abstract painter Malevich as Ukrainian See the article

Also, curators at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York have reclassified three artists as Ukrainian; the artists—Ivan Aivazovsky, Arkhyp Kuindzhi, and Ilya Repin—were previously labelled as Russians, according to a report in ARTnews.

As you can see, art historians around the world are already changing their point of view on this problem. Cesare Urbino (talk) 00:29, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

And I think you are evading a block. Ymblanter (talk) 15:28, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

A very balanced and reasonable decision you made )) Cesare Urbino (talk) 20:11, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2023

This edit request to Kazimir Malevich has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Malevitch was a Ukrainian artist. He referred to himself as Ukrainian and calling him a Russian artist is simply disrespectful. 178.155.185.114 (talk) 16:56, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I oppose this request as it is based on a personal opinion of the IP. Ymblanter (talk) 18:34, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Actualcpscm (talk) 18:44, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2023

This edit request to Kazimir Malevich has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Ukrainian city Київ must be transliterated in English as Kyiv (according to the law of Ukraine ( УКППТ 1996 ): https://intermarium.com.ua/pro-transliteratsiyu-imen-prizvyshh-ukrayintsiv-ta-geografichnyh-nazv-ukrayiny-z-ukrayinskoyi-movy-na-anglijsku/ , https://slovnyk.ua/translit.php) Kiev is outdated (it was used in USSR) Vgogh (talk) 12:35, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Moreover, it was already mentioned in this debate that despite being born in Russian empire, Malevich identified himself as Ukrainian. Being born in Russian empire, doesn't make you Russian. It's the same as with Arkhip Kuindzhi : "was a Ukrainian painter from the Russian Empire " ^[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vgogh (talk • contribs) 12:45, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Note: As in the infobox, "Kiev" is used throughout the article because the city as part of the Russian Empire is more accurately called Kiev (as opposed to the modern Kyiv). Actualcpscm (talk) 16:08, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Not modern. It arose long before the emergence of the Russian language and, accordingly, the transliteration of the name by it. Belcher.Jr (talk) 10:28, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

References

^ https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Arkhip_Kuindzhi

Nationality

So when are you guys gonna change his nationality to Ukrainian from russian or (are you for real?) soviet union? It is not even a nationality. Instead of simply blocking the editing mode, try giving it a moment to think why there was so much activity as to the question of his origin. His parents were Ukrainians, he was born in Ukraine but somehow ended up being russian, according to your page. FIX IT 193.219.187.226 (talk) 16:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

His parents were Polish if you please. For nationality, he had the Russian Empire followed by the Soviet Union. If you have difficulties understanding what nationality is pls look at the dictionary. Ymblanter (talk) 21:51, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Soviet Union as Russian Empire are non-existing countries. This isn't a page about his parents. Malevich himself identified as Ukrainian. Sinestro (talk) 08:15, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Many Russians were born in Ukraine, nothing to be surprised by really Marcelus (talk) 12:46, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

It seems like the bot archived the comment under which I started my answer, let me move it here...

Vote for! I mean I support your decision.

As a fan I wish I've seen here Kazimierz Malewicz - Polish painter. And that's how I personally find him. However, looking globally, that would not be really truth. As an individual he could had been whomever. Yet, we discuss because he was a great artist. And as an artist (and overall) he lived, worked and existed as a piece of bigger wholeness which is Russian culture. And it must be a background for our considerations.

I can popularize him to give him more significance in future Polish art books, but I can't take him from Russian ones... I do understand the "specific conditions" of "Ukraino-Russian debate" which is very emotional (thus - more propagandist then reasonable), but any -pedia is more about being academic which makes emotional arguments void of objective significance.

_{Describing Malevich as "a Russian avant-garde artist and art theorist", stating his "Nationality" as "Russian" and ignoring the Kyiv Art School}

And what just about both are correct? Kazimierz Puławski was certainly Polish but even here in English Wikipedia most likely I'll find him American general and hero of war of independence (who came from Poland) and that's absolutely okay. If we reworded, average reader would wonder what the hell Polish general might had been doing with Continental Army at Brandywine (and saving Washington's life? That sounds ridiculous).

Actually, I've even just checked - Polish nobleman and American Revolutionary War general. Nice.

_{Malevich was born in Ukraine, lived there, and what's most important he made artworks dedicated to Holodomor and suffering of Ukrainian people under russian oppression so considering him russian is absolutely not right}

And Lwów University was founded by Polish (fun fact, who actually was ethnically Hungarian, but see above) King. One of eldest and the best established universities of Poland. Immortalized in annals of Polish science as an academy, where e.g. the greatest Polish mathematicians developed ideas which directly led to breaking the German Enigma...

...do I need to carry on?

_{Nationality: Russian Empire → Soviet Union is wrong. The correct term here is citizenship. The Soviet passport's had special entry for nationality: russians, kazakh etc.}

Not really. Actually, it's a very common issue between English language and us, various Slavs (@Ymblanter - Russian as I see, @Sinestro - Ukrainian as I guess and myself - Polish as I confess) because there is no English word that would have exactly the same meaning as our narodowość/narodnost'/narodnist'.

However, for example in British passport there is field nationality: United Kingdom (so, which country you are citizen of, which nation state you belong to, thus, nationality is hromadyanstvo/grazhdanstvo), while in census you are asked your ethnicity which can be translated as our narodowość/natsional'nost'/natsional'nist').

Long story short, nationality: Russian Empire and then Soviet Union is ok. I'm not sure what about Ukraine.

Obviously, the record with blue-white miniature flag next to and linking to Ukraine article is not correct. I'm not expert on Soviet citizenship, but since Ukrainian SSR and Belarussian SSR were recognized by League of Nations and UN, I guess it was much like European one? So USSR could be kept as variant of Soviet nationality just like European citizenship is presented today? What do you think @Ymblanter?

_{There are a number of newer articles, that specificly tackle the question of re-positioning Malevich according to the newly discovered documents and to his own word}

_{More and more museums around the world acknowledge the ukrainian origin of Malevich. There are more and more news like this:}

Of course there are, it's simply trendy now.

_{Malevich self-identified himself as Ukrainian in his autobiography. He wrote:}

_{“Lev Kvachevsky was my very closest friend. my very closest friend. We couldn’t live without each another.... We’d walk thirty versts every day in summer, spring, and winter for our sketch sessions, arguing all the way.... We’d discuss other matters when we ate, or reminisce about the Ukraine. He and I both were Ukrainians.” . The reference along with the original source can be found here: (p.408)}

Putting the interpretation aside, I'm afraid you used your source a little selectively, because on next page 409 (p. 5 of .pdf scan) the source also quotes Malewicz who said "I no longer want to be a Ukrainian.¹⁴". And reference 14 is "from a letter to Kramarenko". Frankly, I have no idea who was that but not a Russian troll I believe.

_{Instead of simply blocking the editing mode, try giving it a moment to think why there was so much activity as to the question of his origin.}

Easy - because people try to claim Wikipedia for a propaganda theatre of your war. Nothing extraordinary, but has nothing in common with objective facts which should remain here.

Just like it is a fact that Russia attacked Ukraine. And it is fact that world condemns attacker and feels for attacked. And it's a fact that Malewicz was Russian painter of Polish origin who was born and raised where today is Ukraine.

_{His parents were Ukrainians, he was born in Ukraine but somehow ended up being russian, according to your page.}

Say what? His parents were Polish. His language he spoke at home was Polish. Actually, according to your page even ( 193.219.187.226 it's still @Sinestro, correct?). It says family was Roman catholic, however, his father sometimes attended Orthodox ceremonies as well.

And this is the point definitely must be fixed. English Wikipedia says: Both Polish, Ukrainian and Russian were native languages of Malevich [53], however, the source itself says only Both Polish and Russian were native languages of Malevich. It seems like someone just lied (on purpose adding Ukrainian) which seems to be confirmed by keeping the word 'both'. Both are two.

Polish Wikipedia elaborates that when Kazimierz was a boy (by the context he must had been about 7-12 yo) The Malewicz family frequently moved across Podolye and Volhynia Governorates and that's where he learned Ukrainian. Svetlan (talk) 02:14, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Oh, actually Soviet Union with its citizenship was established in 1922, wasn't it? Hence, further research seems necessary to find out whether Malewicz was citizen of Ukrainian SSR or Russian FSSR before Soviet Union established. During my research tonight I've read he met 1922 in Russia.

And to sum up my contribution, please consider it an edition request. Thanks. Svetlan (talk) 02:20, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 December 2023

This edit request to Kazimir Malevich has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change spelling of the capital of Ukraine from Kiev to Kyiv, please – on the basis of https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/KyivNotKiev Ukrainian pronunciation of the city. MakSpace (talk) 15:42, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

In progress: An editor is implementing the requested edit. Shadow311 (talk) 15:49, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Done Shadow311 (talk) 16:05, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

I reverted the edit as it explicitly contradicts the community consensus at Talk:Kyiv. There is a good reason why this page is protected. Ymblanter (talk) 21:39, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 February 2024

This edit request to Kazimir Malevich has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Ukrainian artist 173.70.150.80 (talk) 00:38, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Not done: see above Cannolis (talk) 01:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Kyiv

@Ymblanter to avoid reverting, I wanted to clarify why we should use "Kyiv" in the lead: 1) it is the primary spelling of the linked article, a romanized Ukrainian version that has been officially adopted by the United States Board on Geographic Names 2) spelling of "Kiev" is, as I am sure you know, Soviet-era Russian and has become a reflection of Russia's imperialism and colonialism. Ppt91 ^talk 16:13, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

The community consensus (see Talk:Kyiv) is to use Kyiv for everything after 1991, and Kiev for everything before, but definitely for everything pre-1918. Ymblanter (talk) 16:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Ymblanter Can you please point me to the specific discussion where these historical distinctions have been explicitly established with community consensus? This only affirms using the preferred spelling of Kyiv for the city article. Thanks. Ppt91 ^talk 17:55, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Kyiv/Archive 9#RfC: Kyiv/Kiev in other articles Ymblanter (talk) 18:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Ymblanter I am afraid this does not resolve the issue. The discussion does not mention a specific rule of definitely for everything pre-1918 at all.

Rather, the consensus is to use Kiev for unambiguously historical topics, such as when referencing historical events like the 1920 "Kiev offensive", which makes sense and doing otherwise could be construed as anachronistic. Even in that article, however, the spelling of "Kiev" in the lead is followed by "(Kyiv)" in brackets.

Also worth noting is that the article about Malevich is a biography and we are linking a city (geographical location) where he was born, rather than an historical event, and some context for using "Kiev" needs to be provided. Two good examples are Mikhail Bulgakov (Kiev, Kiev Governorate of the Russian Empire) and Alexander Vertinsky (Kiev (now Kyiv, Ukraine)). I believe we should follow either of these two conventions for historical accuracy. Otherwise, it's just arbitrary spelling. Ppt91 ^talk 19:12, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Concerning your second point, the infobox says "Kiev <...>, now Kyiv, Ukraine". As far as I am concerned this is fully sufficient. Concerning the first point, I do not see your argument. If 1920 is unambiguously historical, everything pre-1920 is unambiguously historical as well. Malevich was born in Kiev, not in Kyiv, and the article reflects this. Ymblanter (talk) 19:18, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Ymblanter I must have missed that this information was included in the infobox, my bad. I think that works perfectly fine. On a related note, the article certainly needs a lot of editing and citations seem to be all over the place. I've started rewriting some of the stuff I thought was most urgent and I'd be happy to collaborate on gradually improving the rest of the article over the next several months (being realistic with my IRL commitments, as I am on a self-imposed semi-wikibreak), if that is something you'd be interested in. Malevich's work might not at the core of my research, but is definitely a critical reference point and he's also somewhat of a personal passion project. Ppt91 ^talk 20:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Sure, because the article was for many years under constant attack of driveby users who were only interested in stating that Malevich was Ukrainian and he had no relation to Russian whatsoever. This is why references had to be added. The article now is under indefinite protection, but if we remove these references and it gets unprotected sometime the same users would be quickly back. Ymblanter (talk) 20:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I figured that was a big part of the problem, also because of how politically charged this issue is right now. I am sure we can keep a good deal of current citations and only replace those for which more appropriate WP:RS can be found. Either way, it'd be great to work on improving it, even if that process takes a while. Ppt91 ^talk 20:33, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Citizenship and nationality

He identified himself as a Ukrainian. We read it from his data, filled in by himself. And that's all. Why do we need the opinions of modern scientists about his nationality, especially after centuries of appropriation of Ukrainian culture by the Russians? Why can a Russian administrator deny the valid rules of Wikipedia? And if it is so important for him to talk about citizenship (not nationality!) he can write "Ukrainian artist who was of Ukrainian and Polish origin and was a citizen of the Russian Empire, Ukraine and the Soviet Union", but not "Russian artist". However, I do not know of any examples where citizenship indicates the identification of a person. Belcher.Jr (talk) 10:24, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

In Wikipedia we are using secondary sources Marcelus (talk) 10:37, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I understand, but we must define a person's nationality first of all in terms of self-identification. Does it come from the Wikipedia rules? Belcher.Jr (talk) 10:48, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Let me repeat again: we are using secondary sources, first and foremost. Marcelus (talk) 11:02, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I will also duplicate it here so as not to get lost in a dispute with an engaged user. This is a Ukrainian source, but it is authoritative and widely discloses the topic, here about changes in the museums of the Netherlands and here. Here is ukrainian academic sources and here. It should be understood that these are not all sources. And what I was able to find on my own quickly. I ask you to also try to help establish justice, and at least point out that there are different points of view regarding nationality, but do not write "Russian artist". Belcher.Jr (talk) 11:29, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

FYI I am Dutch. At this moment, Ukrainian trolls escalated the situation to the point that every user in good standing who sees their edits just reverts them on sight. Ymblanter (talk) 10:42, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Your native language is Russian. Isn't it? Belcher.Jr (talk) 10:47, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, so what? The mothertongue of half of your compatriots is Russian. Ymblanter (talk) 10:49, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Your language shows your origin and therefore your bias towards the subject of discussion. Even in 2021, there were only 18% of them. Most of them are Russians. Belcher.Jr (talk) 10:55, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

And I ask you to refrain from labeling me as a troll. Belcher.Jr (talk) 10:51, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Do you see this t/p? Every week or two someone demands the change of Malewicz's nationality to Ukrainian, it's always answered the same way: provide sources, show its not a fringe view. Do you really think that one more post about the same topic will change anything? I'm not calling you a troll, but I understand why some may think that such a behaviour is close to trolling. Marcelus (talk) 10:53, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Especially if all edits of the user are on this page. Ymblanter (talk) 10:57, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

This is a Ukrainian source, but it is authoritative and widely discloses the topic, here about changes in the museums of the Netherlands and here. Here is ukrainian academic sources and here. Belcher.Jr (talk) 11:05, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Your sources pretty much say that Ukraine considers Malevich to be a Ukrainian artist (and insists he is spelled as Malevych). We know that. The Ukrainian Wikipedia understandably states this as well. You are also not the first person to make this argument. Ymblanter (talk) 11:18, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

This is not directed at you. It’s answer for Marcellus. You have a political bias and a clear conflict of interest. therefore, discussing this topic with you is not interesting to me and is contradictory from the point of view of Wikipedia's rules. And you also offended me Belcher.Jr (talk) 11:22, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree with @Ymblanter, and see no reason to exclude his voice from the dicussion Marcelus (talk) 12:23, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

So, do I understand correctly that you ignore my sources and arguments, and agree with his subjective statements and manipulations, and also do not see the bias and political involvement of this user, which can affect the outcome of the discussion? Belcher.Jr (talk) 13:23, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree with this: Your sources pretty much say that Ukraine considers Malevich to be a Ukrainian artist (and insists he is spelled as Malevych). We know that. The Ukrainian Wikipedia understandably states this as well. You are also not the first person to make this argument. Marcelus (talk) 13:38, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok, can we then put it on the page that he identified himself as a Ukrainian and was born in Ukraine, but he also had citizenship of the Russian Empire and lived during the Posi occupation, so he is also considered Russian. Isn't this a fair interpretation given the sources and history, and not the manipulations of the Russian PSYOP? Belcher.Jr (talk) 13:46, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

There is no Russian manipulation; I think the article is good as it is. Marcelus (talk) 14:02, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I heard you. I am sorry that I and my sources could not convince you. Perhaps it will take time for the truth to prevail and everything to fall into place. Belcher.Jr (talk) 14:18, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

welcome to the club Bigshlomo (talk) 16:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

The same can be said if you substitute "Ukraine" with "Russia" in your reply. So why do russian sources have priority over Ukrainian ones? UApatriot69 (talk) 11:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Btw Kyiv Post 2023 is a pure propaganda outlet. All reasonable journalists left it in 2021.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:19, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Are there authoritative sources for such a claim? Are these your subjective politically engaged statements? Belcher.Jr (talk) 11:26, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

The majority of which went on to create the Kyiv Independent. I think you’ll be surprised to see their take on this issue. You yourself have confirmed that they are credible.

https://kyivindependent.com/how-russia-steals-and-rewrites-ukrainian-history-to-justify-its-claims-in-ukraine/ Bigshlomo (talk) 04:03, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Do we actually have a citation for the infobox claim that between 1917 and 1922 he was a Ukrainian national? If I read the article, it does not seem to say that he has been in Ukraine during this period. Immight be wrong on this one though and I do not currently have access to good literature.--Ymblanter (talk) 01:09, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

No, we don't. He wasn't in Ukraine, so he had no way to get the UNR citizenship, even if it at least had a citizenship law. UA0Volodymyr (talk) 17:02, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

[1] "Shkandrij, Myroslav. "Reinterpreting Malevich: Biography, Autobiography, Art." Canadian-American Slavic Studies 36.4 (2002): 405-420" (PDF). Retrieved 16 January 2023.

[2] "Malevich, Kazimir, and Alan Upchurch. "Chapters from an Artist's Autobiography." October, vol. 34, 1985, pp. 25–44. JSTOR,". Retrieved 16 January 2023.

[3] "Filevsʹka, Teti︠a︡na, and Wendy R. Salmond, eds. Kazimir Malevich: Kyiv Period, 1928-1930: Articles, Documents and Letters. RODOVID, 2017". Retrieved 16 January 2023.

[4] "Kazimir Malevich and Ukrainian Avant-garde". Retrieved 16 January 2023.

[5] "Shkandrij, Myroslav. "Reinterpreting Malevich: Biography, Autobiography, Art." Canadian-American Slavic Studies 36.4 (2002): 405-420" (PDF). Retrieved 16 January 2023.

[6] "Malevich, Kazimir, and Alan Upchurch. "Chapters from an Artist's Autobiography." October, vol. 34, 1985, pp. 25–44. JSTOR,". Retrieved 16 January 2023.

[7] "Filevsʹka, Teti︠a︡na, and Wendy R. Salmond, eds. Kazimir Malevich: Kyiv Period, 1928-1930: Articles, Documents and Letters. RODOVID, 2017". Retrieved 16 January 2023.

[8] "Kazimir Malevich and Ukrainian Avant-garde". Retrieved 16 January 2023.

[9] ttps://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Arkhip_Kuindzhi

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