Talk:Kabul/Archive 1

Inaccuracies and verification

I am surprised that the comments on this page date to at least 4 years ago, whereas Kabul is a current and centrally important subject. Moreover I am also surprised that inspite of being viewed by the "Version 1.0" team, this article has been passed and hasn't been tagged for unsourced statements. Virtually all its statements are unsourced; one such statement says that King Nadir was King Amanullah's brother and that is patently untrue. Will someone from the Wiki community please tag these unsourced statements and deal with the errors? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.27.165.178 (talk) 00:36, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Some info from website

Here is an interesting news item someone could incorporate into this article [1] . Kingturtle 18:52, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

---

From Khulm:

Kabul, city in east central Afghanistan, capital of the country and Kabul Province. Kabul is on the Kabul River, situated at an elevation of about 1800 m (about 5900 ft) making it one of the highest capital cities in the World. The population is around 1 million people. The nation's chief economic and cultural center, it has long been of strategic importance because of its proximity to the Khyber Pass, an important pass in the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Manufactures of the city include textiles, processed food, chemicals, and wood products. Tajiks are the predominant population group of Kabul, and Pashtuns are an important minority. Kabul University (founded in 1932) had been the country's most important institute of higher education prior to its closure due to war in 1992. The university was the best known in the region in the 1970 and 1980's. The university now is being partially reopened and only a few students are returning. The University needs much reconstruction in order to operate normally.

An ancient community, Kabul rose to prominence in 1504, when it was made the capital of the Moghul Empire by the conqueror Babur. Delhi replaced it as the imperial capital in 1526, but Kabul remained an important Moghul center until it was captured, in 1738, by the Persian ruler Nadir Shah. In 1747 Kabul became part of an independent Afghan state, and in the 1770s it replaced Qandahar as the capital of Afghanistan. It was a focus of British, Persian, and Russian rivalry for control of the Khyber Pass in the 19th century, when it was twice occupied (1839-1842 and 1879-1880) by British troops. The city grew as an industrial center after 1940.

Kabul was occupied by troops of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) in 1979; the USSR withdrew from Afghanistan on Feb. 15, 1989. The city has gone through the toughest and most disastrous civil war in its history between 1992-1996. Over 50,000 people lost their lives during the Mujahideen infightings on the streets of Kabul in 1992-1996 period. The city has been under the control of the Taliban government since 1996 and ended in 2001. The Northern Alliance took over the city as the Taliban withdrew from Kabul and retreated southwards. The fate of the city is yet to be known. The role of UN and World community is important in bringing a stable government in Kabul.

Infrastructures such as roads and traffic system, telephone system, electricity, water sanitation, renovation of buildings are in shambles and the need for reconstruction is very much needed to bring back the city of Kabul to a better place for living. http://www.afghan-network.net/Culture/kabul.html

removed as it seems to be about Kabul. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Khulm. Andrewa 06:23, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Total Revamp

I'm gonna try and totally revamp the page as the information provided is both out of order and seriously lacks images. I'm still learning how to use images on wikipedia and I have a huge number of photos myself. Let me see what can be done. For the moment I just added one picture. More coming probably before Thursday.

P.S. Sorry if I'm messing up a bit. I'm a newbie ;) Casimiri 20:16, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Land area

Does anybody know the land area of the city proper of Kabul? Thanks. Polaron 00:05, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Hindi

Someone has been adding the Hindi translation of Kabul and someone keeps taking it out. I have no stance on whether or not it should be in the article but perhaps we discuss it here before we start an edit war. --MarkBuckles 22:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I just saw that too. As an Afghan, I'm almost offended because it seems to imply some sort of Hindu/Indian claim to the city, which is ridiculous. Afghanistan has nothing to do with India and Hindi is not a language of Afghanistan. Adding a Hindi translation of Kabul makes as much sense as adding a Hindi translation of New York. I'm going to remove the translation. Dawud —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.74.218.59 (talk) 05:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Kabul big catching up to do

Casimiri...you took very long time...so I decided to do your work. I hope you don't mind me taking couple of your pictures and placing them on the Kabul article? well...I'm sure you don't mind but I wanted to explain this so you know. I would like to see more latest images of interesting places added to the tourism and sightseeing section. The ones I'm hoping to find should be related to the Gardens in Kabul. The reason is that most of the city is under construction so it looks bad to see gray cement buildings with people doing construction work...not good. But trees, flowers, people just enjoying their selves in the famouse parks would be good to show in the tourism section. NisarKand 8:13 AM, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Kabul City

User:Ariana310, I noticed that you are confused here. This article is about the city Kabul, NOT ABOUT Kabul Province. Therefore, your recent-added statements are refering to the Province of Kabul, not to the city of Kabul. Please try to understand between the city of Kabul and the Province of Kabul. Your statements should be removed from this article and added to the article Kabul Province. Thanx! Pashtun Nov. 28, 2006

No, in fact, Kabulistan refers to the old city of Kabul. The term "province" is a new Political and Administrative term. The case of Kabulistan is in a right article. Ariana310 00:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

You've indicated lots of statements without any reliable sources. You've also indicated that Kapisa, Peshawar, Chitral and Nurestan were all included in the city of Kabul. That's like saying Connecticut, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washington DC were all included in the vicinity of New York City at once. Again, you are confused between the city of Kabul and Kabul Province. This article is ONLY about the Kabul City and has nothing to do with the Province of Kabul. I guess you are not willing to learn or acknowledge anything I say to you. So therefore, I will go find administrators so that they can solve this dispute here. Pashtun Nov. 28, 2006

I will soon provide sources for each point that I have written, at the moment I am busy with my exams at university. I already told you that the Kabul Province is a new Administrated and Political section within the new government of Afghanistan, or even let's take it since 1919. So that's the reason that I did no mention Kabulistan in that article.

Moreover, if you read the historical books, you observe it directly that Kabulistan was used to attribute for a region covering a vast territory. I will soon provide you the sources about Kabulistan, Kabulshahan or Ratbelshahan, etc.

As for resolving the discussion, if you really think that the only way to come to an agreement would be the interference of an Administrator instead of waiting to see my arguments and sources, then you are free for it. Thank you Ariana310 13:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I just added two sources: one for the term Kabulistan and another in which it shows that Kabul covered a larger region, you can see in that book that the author even talks about Peshawar under the title of Kabul. Ariana310 13:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Sources

I added the following sources for what I wrote in the article:

• In most of the historical books as well as the Dari (Persian) literature books, the word Kabulistan has been used HERE Just in the beginning, it has been mentioned the definition of Kabulistan.
• Kabulistan comprised cities like Kapisa (to the north) and Peshawar (to the south) HERE This is an old book. The author talks about Peshawar under the section of Kabul, and takes Peshawar as part of Kabulistan. Even he has given the title as the country of Kabulistan.
• From the Memoirs of Babur: Although Bajour, Sawād, Pershāwer, and Hashnaghar* originally belonged to Kābul; yet at the present date some of these districts have been desolated, and others of them entirely occupied by the tribes of Afghans, so that they can no longer be properly regarded as provinces. HERE

Here are other sources for my other points, but I didn't put them in the article because they weren't direct:

• From the end of 6th century until the Islamic invasion in late 7th century, Kabulistan had its own kingdom called Kabulshahan or Ratbelshahan. Here It says: the ancient Kabul city walls constructed on the ridges of the Asamaii and Shair Darwaza mountains during the reign of Kabul Shahan against Arab invasion
• This article gives a good definition: Arabs in Afghanistan
• Another article from PashtunFoundation.org CHECK HERE
• Article from afghanan.net about Pashtuns HERE

Now, I would like to ask you to remove the TotallyDisputed Tag. I did not remove it, despite that I provided sources for each point that I wrote, and let it for you as you yourself added the tag. Thank you Ariana310 18:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Sweety, I'm not at a war with you, just trying to help you as much as I can. Almost everyone get confused with Kabul city and Kabul Province, so that's not a big thing. I am explaining to you that Kabulistan does not mean city. It could've been a name of a country, state, nation, county, province, anything except a city. This article is only limited to the city of Kabul. If you were looking from the sky, and you focused only on the city limits of Kabul and writing an article about it, then I'm sure you would not be mentioning far away place from Kabul city. You've even inluded or mentioned names of places as faraway as Peshawar in Pakistan, as if Peshawar was once the other end of Kabul city. LOL, that's just crazy. It's something like 8 hours drive from Kabul city to Peshawar city, with nothing but deserts and mountains in between. What you want to say is that Kabul once belonged to a place called Kabulistan. That makes more sense, and there is no need to try to explain how huge Kabulistan was because that has nothing to do with the city of Kabul. You may add more about Kabulistan into the article of Kabul Province. I will try to help you with this but give me some time because I am also busy on other things. About the total dispute, what's the big deal if it's there, let others join our discussion here. By the way, I hope you pass your exam. Pashtun Nov. 29, 2006

"Sweety"?!!.....Never mind ! So the only disputed point for you is the case of Kabulistan. And the tag of totally disputed is only for that? Can't you tolerate 4 lines about Kabulistan in the article of Kabul? Here are my reasons for adding Kabulistan in Kabul article:

• This article (Kabul) only deals with Kabul, nothing has been fixed as Kabul City or Kabul Province. It (Kabul) is a general article about Kabul, that's all.
• Kabul Province is a new Administration and Political division within the new government of Afghanistan. It only deals with today's province of Kabul.
• The history about Kabul has been written in the article of Kabul and not in Kabul Province. So since the full history is in the article of Kabul, it would be appropriate to add it in Kabul article.

If you copy all the history related to Kabul to the article of Kabul Province and take all the related responsibility, then I will remove the Kabulistan paragraph from the article of Kabul. ::Thank you Ariana310 07:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Ethnic composition of Kabul

Does anyone here know the ethnic compostion of Kabul? Does it have a definate majority? Tajiki

Tajiks are the majority, followed by Pashtuns. Then the minorities are Hazaras and Uzbeks. Parsiwan 20:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The majority are indeed Tajiks, followed by Hazaras and Pashtuns. Please see the map:

[2]

Tājik 00:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't object to or dispute this information since it is a latest map that can be used to determine the latest information of the ethnic distribution of Afghanistan as a whole. Therefore, this map should replace the older one (1980 map) used in Demographics of Afghanistan. This map showes exactly where each ethnic groups live.--NisarKand 22:26, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The map is copyrighted, see [3]. I have deleted it as it's definately not from the BBC, but from National Geogrpahic. Khoikhoi 05:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The population of Kabul is estimated in all regards until a proper census is conducted, which right now is the least of Afghanistan's worries. Most reports do estimate a Persian-speaking majority (Tajiks and Hazaras combined) with Pashtuns as the largest minority at this time (how this will be impacted by the return of more refugees is speculative). Tombseye 21:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

You're right. In 2002, Kabul had a population of anywhere between half million to 1 million...according to reports. Now, the population has risen to anywhere between 3 million to 4 million. This obviously makes the 2002 map unreliable. The problem is that most ethnic Pashtuns in Kabul speak Persian language (Dari or Farsi)...it makes it more difficult to know who is an ethnic Pashtun and who isnt. At the same time, many Tajiks, Hazaras, Uzbeks can also speak Pashto very well and this further makes it difficult. I don't think it's that important anyway...as I am Pashtun and if it satisfies you non-Pashtun people by placing my ethnic at the very end....you may go ahead and it doesn't change the reality in Kabul. I knoticed among some people, always wishing to see less Pashtuns everywhere. I say...God is in control and he will take care of these evil thinkers or evil wishers.--NisarKand 17:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I totally and very strongly dispute Tajiks and Hazaras being the majority in Kabul City, on latest gathering of important information. There are close to 4 million people living in Kabul city which makes it over 10% of the entire population Afghanistan, so how is it possible for Tajiks (minority) to be the majority of Kabul's up to 4 million people? and Hazaras (9% of entire population of Afghanistan) to be higher then the 42% of majority Pashtuns. This does not in any way make sense.--NisarKand 20:58, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Just accept the sources, NisarKand! You have been given a source (National Geographic, and simply ACCEPT that. If you have a better source, then it's fine. But as long as you have nothing else but your own nationalistic-motivated POV, keep quiet and accept the source! Tājik 01:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

If Pashtu speakers make 60% of Kabul Province's population and Kabul city is home to 80% of Kabul Province's population, than how can Tajiks make more than 45% of the population? According to MRRD, 37% of the population are Farsi speakers.

Tājik has given us "National Geographics" as his source while I will provide "Ministry of Rural Rehabilitation - Afghanistan" as my source.

[4]

(Ketabtoon (talk) 00:30, 23 July 2009 (UTC))

I have no problem with getting sources to the truth....the Internet is full of it and I know how to read and write in English language. I will get sources soon. In fact, I will get sooo much sources and hit you with it so hard that you will have depression for a whole year. You have you nationlistic name "Tajik" as your User:Name and telling me I am nationalistic. Besides, you are not considered a Tajik anyway but a small tiny minority of Kizilbash. As a Pashtun...we Pashtuns rule Kabul and the whole country...along with half of Pakistan....you want to say that the leaders of Afghanistan are Tajiks, which is false. Anyway...Kabul now has 3 times more population than what it was in 2002. Don't burn yourself when you see higher number of Pashtuns, it's not healthy.--NisarKand 03:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Nisarkand, might I remind you that this is not an internet forum. You seem very emotinal, this is not a place for feelings but for facts and truth. Also, you seem to be arguing rather than discussing, this section is for discussion not emotional arguments. I just wanted to remind you of that. Also, I will now add the following header: User:Beh-nam 03:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Kabul Province's districts and its population

Let me copy the list of Kabul Province's districts, with its population and ethnic composition. I thought it will be helpful for others if they came across this page.

The estimation of Kabul province's and its districts population is made by the Central Statistics Office of Afghanistan (LINK) (2006), followed by the ethnic-composition estimations (1990) by AIMS (Afghanistan Information Management Services) (LINK):

1. Kabul (district) - 2,536,300 (45% Tajik, 25% Pashtun, 25% Hazara) [taken from here ]
2. Deh-sabz - 47,900 (70% Pashtun, 30% Tajik)
3. Mir-bacha Kot - 46,300 (95% Tajik, 5% Pashtun)
4. Kalakan - 26,900 (90% Tajik, 10% Pashtun)
5. Qara Bagh - 67,700 (60% Tajik, 40% Pashtun)
6. Farza - 19,100 (50% Tajik, 50% Pashtun)
7. Istalif - 29,800 (98% Tajik)
8. Guldara - 20,300 (50% Tajik, 50% Pashtun)
9. Shakardara - 72,900 (90% Tajik, 10% Pashtun)
10. Paghman - 106,6 (70% Pashtun, 30% Tajik)
11. Chahar Asyab - 32,500 (50% Tajik, 50% Pashtun and Hazara)
12. Musahi - 20,700 (95% Pashtun, 5% Tajik)
13. Khaki Jabbaar - 12,800 (95% Pashtun, 5% Tajik)
14. Bagrami - 49,200 (80% Pashtun, 20% Tajik)
15. Suroobi - 49,200 (90% Pashtun, the rest Pashai)

TOTAL - 3,138,100

What I calculated, I found the proportions as 50% Tajik, 25% Pashtun, 20% Hazara and 5% other ethnic minorities. Only the Kabul city makes the 80% of the entire population of Kabul province.Ariana310 10:04, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

My friend go to aims.org.af and then do your calculations with the correct numbers not with the innacurate numbers posted here. Also can you ask the person who posted the numbers according to statistic Afghanistan provide the exact number on their website. For the past 4-5 years I haven't noticed anything there. IDIOTS!--209.202.115.142 (talk) 21:43, 23 November 2007 (UTC)THETRUTH

If Pashtu speakers make 60% of Kabul Province's population and Kabul city is home to 80% of Kabul Province's population, than how can Tajiks make more than 45% of the population? According to MRRD, 37% of the population are Farsi speakers.

Source: Ministry of Rural Rehabilitation and Development - Afghanistan

[5]

If Kabul City's population has increased in the past 2/3 years, than we can easily claim that the percentage of Pashtuns in Kabul has increased as well. Thousands of IDPs moved to Kabul from southern Afghansitan because of the on going unstability in that region and thousands of Afghan refugees returned back to Afghanistan from Pakistan (of whom majority were Pashtuns). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ketabtoon (talk • contribs) 00:40, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

History section disputed

Please show or provide credible information regarding that Kabul was part of or a state of Khorasan in the past. It must be (1)convincing information, (2) it must be in the English language and (3) it must not be from some unimportant or not well known person's personal point of view. Meaning it should and must be from well known scholars or any reliable encyclopedia. Finally, please do not remove the disputed tag until I am satisfied with the information requested. Thank you!--NisarKand 17:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

These people have no credable source nor do they rely on any reliable source to back thier fake information and self claimed fact. About 90% of thier information is based on lies and no such reliable source. They put down bunch of numbers and claim it to be from Statistic Afghanistan while I have visited the site million times and haven't come across any of those numbers. They copy and past district numbers from AIMS, but then change most of the numbers and have 'AIMS as its source. When you visit the site you can see the difference to those numbers.' The other day I came across GOVERNMENT SOURCE in MRRD SITE where it states all the important information needed.'

SIXTY-SIX PERCENT OF THE RESIDENTS SPEAK PASHTO IN KABUL, but in Wikipedia it has false information. Kabul Province with Ghazni which is put as Pashtun province in AIMS it is recorded as Tajik and Hazara Province. These people will do anything to spread lies but they forget truth always prevails. --209.202.115.142 (talk) 18:38, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

New City Infobox

User:MJCdetroit changed to the standardize City template. The previous template actually matches Indian city templates which looks a lot better than this generic template. There are also some problems with this one such as the current city location is incorrect. And even though this is a "standardize" template it neither matches neighboring countries or even other cities in Afghanistan. Do we want to use it? --MarsRover 05:00, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the previous one was better, both because of its design/appearance, and because it matches the infobox of other cities of Afghanistan. I think we should use the old one.Ariana310 09:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out, there does seem to be a problem with Infobox City's dot map when viewed using IE. I'll revert the changes that I made for now. The Infobox Afghan City was created about a month ago and is based on an automatic dot location map. Infobox city already has this feature if the map is available at Template:Location map (which Afganistan is not at the present). The idea should not be to develop infoboxes for every country but to use one standard template that functions and displays information in a similar fashion. Instead of developing a new infobox template, an Afgan map in orthographic projection should have been developed. That way a user can view different cities from different countries and see a similar looking infobox for each, London, New York, Montreal, Mexico City, Abu Dhabi, Amsterdam, Baghdad and close to 4,000 other page use {{Infobox City}} (or one of its aliases). The header color is nice on the Afghan City and I have tried to implement this feature at Infobox City but there were too many objections. —MJCdetroit 17:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Kabul Map

I did not find the author or the user who uploaded this map, but this map is incorrect in many places. It has traced incorrectly the location of the units which is shown and the plan of streets in many places is wrong. Although it is marked that it is based on the CIA Kabul map and Nancy Dupree's map of 1980's, the plan of the city has completely changed in these 20 years. Those who have been or who live in Kabul, can easily see the errors.

So would you like to keep this map? -Ariana310 09:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I uploaded the map which I think is needed for this article since not too many people have been to Kabul. Its based on old maps but it includes only major roads and places that I thought wouldn't have changed in 20 years (airport, downtown, etc). This map is a vector file so its easy to fix problems such as moving streets and changing labels. Can you tell me what is incorrect and I will see if I can fix it? MarsRover 17:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The map of the downtown is incorrect; some main grand streets have been omitted in the map. Plus, units like Ministry of Justice (now it is Ministry of Defense in that position, and Ministry of Justice is moved down to the Pashtunistan Square), Republican Palace (does not exist now, it is Ministry of Foreign Affairs but not exactly in that position because its main road is omitted in the map), and the name of some areas have been changed, for example Karta-e Denaw has been renamed to Khushhal Khan Mina. Anyhow, we can keep it for instance until we find or make a proper map, because it seems abit clean. -Ariana310 21:18, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I will try to fix those things. Let me know if you see anything else wrong. MarsRover 00:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

New map from AIMS

The Afghanistan Information Management System has released a new very detailed and accurate map of Kabul city. It can be seen here. Maybe you guys can do an update based on this new AIMS map? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.229.16.84 (talk) 05:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Chabolo

Chabolo is a reference to a town in Palestine which also happens to be called Kabul. It bears no relation to the city in Afghanistan. See, e.g., the text in the books that come up with the search "Kabul + Chabolo" Google Books. --Bejnar (talk) 22:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion on use of Christian or Common Era in this article (copied from John Hill's Talk Page)

Kabul

Hi John, I know this is a while ago, but I've just come across this edit of yours [6] at Kabul. The summary you gave was "a few additions", but the edit consisted for the most part of replacing the BC notation, used from the outset of the article, with the BCE notation. I think "a few additions" is stretching it somewhat, unless you meant the addition of 'E' to 'BC'. As I'm sure you know, changes such as the one you made don't comply with the Wikipedia policy, especially when the edit summary doesn't explain what's being done. Can you recall why this change was made? I'm thinking of reverting it, but would welocme your comments first. Thanks, 82.20.19.200 (talk) 00:20, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Reply on use of Common Era

Hi! Well, yes, this was indeed a long time ago - October 2005 as I discovered on serching - an edit I made early in my "Wiki career". I made 4 changes of era names in that edit (plus added a phrase of text) from the Christian era nomenclature, ie. I changed BC = "before Christ" and AD = Anno domini = "Year of our Lord" to the newer, but neutral and more widely acceptable BCE ("Before Common Era") and CE ("Common Era") for several reasons:

1. It does not seem seem appropriate to use a Christian-based era to date events in a country which is almost totally Muslim. This is rather similar to dating events in, for example, Roman history in the Hegira era - 622 CE (or AD) marking the first year of the Islamic calendar, or 1 AH (anno higirae)]. It would be surprising to me if Christian Italians (and probably other Christian groups) did not complain if someone started doing this.

2. Both Muslim and Jewish scholars have complained to me about the use of the "Christian Era" for dating, who preferred the use of the "Common Era" and several have suggested I use it in my writings.

3. The use of the "Christian Era" was introduced around the world by European imperial powers who made a point of ignoring local eras (such as the Saka Era in India or the Hejira Era in Muslim countries) and substituting their own era and system of dating on their colonies and in the scientific and historical literature.

4. The so-called "Christian Era" is misleading anyway as almost all scholars - including Christian ones - now agree that it is most unlikely that Jesus was born in 1 AD. But, because the "Common Era" has been decided to start in 1 AD, and this is just a convenient decision, it does not imply any particlar accuracy in relation to historical events and does not carry with it religious or imperialistic overtones.

I hope that explains my decision. I don't, myself, feel very strongly about the use of one over the other (and it is very easy to get used to both - as they are so similar), but I do think it best not to unnecessarily annoy people of other cultures and faiths. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 08:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi John, Thanks for getting back to me. Under the circumstances it would not now seem appropriate to change the long-standing edits on Kabul. I would, however, make a couple of points; Kabul is not a religious topic, it is a geographic topic. Secondly, when looking at issues such as these, it is the readership that matters rather than the subject. The English Wikipedia is aimed at English-speaking people, who, by-and-large are much more familiar with AD/BC than CE/BCE, and don't, so far as I am aware, generally object to its use. If there is a Hebrew Wikipedia then I would expect dates to be given using the Hebrew calendar, even for Christian-related events and subjects. I find it strange that Muslim and Jewish scholars should object to AD/BC when they have their own calendar that they are free to use. Regards, Chris. 82.20.19.200 (talk) 11:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Chris! Kabul is certainly not a religious topic per se, but it is the capital of a strongly Muslim country. I see BC and AD as inaccurate anomalies - although I agree they are widely recognised. However, it's up to you - either system is fine with me though the use of CE and BCE seem to be more widely used by scholars these days - particularly by non-Christian scholars. Anyway, whatever you do, I suggest having a look at the Wikipedia article on the Common Era and consider why the use of the so-called "Christian Era" may be offensive to some. Best wishes, John Hill (talk) 03:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I feel moved to add my experience on this matter and that is that BCE/CE is in no way a neutral convention and that it is simply false to state that it is more widely used. That is a red herring. The BC/AD system prevails almost everywhere in English writing and that is the system that is generally favoured. There is a tendency among some dogmatic editors to try and overturn this by persistent pressure including blatant removal of the apparently offending system without justification.--90.209.196.46 (talk) 21:17, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

kabul

u forgot to mention wzir-khan district —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zekeria Ebrahimi (talk • contribs) 21:47, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Hindi

I don't understand why the name of Kabul is now written in Hindi? As an Afghan, I am offended. Hindi is NOT an official language of Afghanistan. There may be Sikh people living in Kabul, however, that does mean that Hindi should be used to write the name of a Persian city. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.246.197.14 (talk) 20:20, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I'm likewise offended. There are at most just a couple of thousand Hindus and Sikhs in all of Afghanistan. We're talking about a couple of thousand people in a country of more than 30 million. What's more, these Sikhs and Hindus are not really Afghans. They are the descendants of Indian merchants who decided to settle in Afghanistan when India was still ruled by the British. To suggest that there is a Hindi or Sikh claim to the city just because there are some immigrant families from India living in the city doesn't make much sense. How about we add Devanagari translations for Berlin, Paris, Rome, Washington, and London? Those cities have many more Indian immigrants than Kabul does, both in absolute terms and percentage-wise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.74.218.59 (talk) 05:57, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Kabul is an ancient hindu and indian city as all of Afghanistan is a part of ancient india. Why are you denying this. We are spending so much money in aid and development of kabul and afghanistan. india is the real origin of Afghanistan. It is rightfully ok to have kabul written in hindi and in sanskrit as Afghanistan is really an ancient india.

Kabul is Pukhtun/Pashtun

Kabul is and has always been predominately Pukhtun. National Geographic and other Western sources know nothing with regards to the Muslim world, so please stop trying to use them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pukhtunman (talk • contribs) 23:10, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Kabul is a city with Tajiks majority. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.7.213.69 (talk) 19:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Kabul

Why are people constantly editing this page and making Kabul look "ghetto." There is no need to emphasize that Kabul is the "capital city of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan." People are aware that it is the capital city. Perhaps we should learn from Iranians and be a bit more classy about how we present our capital city. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.199.123.90 (talk) 03:14, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The Road To Iran

In the first paragraph the last sentence is; "A highway is being rebuilt in the west to modern standards to link Afghanistan to Iran."

What has that got to do with Kabul? Surely that's an Afghan / Afghan Transport matter? It's confusing having that in the lead! --LookingYourBest (talk) 18:37, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Bunch of Iranians and Persian speaking Afghan wikipedia editors who feel inferior are working desperately to connect Afghanistan and Iran, to make it appear as if these 2 nations are brothers. The truth is they are the worst enemies of one another. The Persian empire was destroyed by Hotak tribes of Afghanistan in early 1700s, so relations between Persians and Afghanistan became sour since then. Today, Iran is trying to have influence over Afghan politics as Iran is being destroyed slowly by the west.[7], [8] The Persians who edit wikipedia are leaving clues to the western people on how they think.--119.73.6.235 (talk) 20:01, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Population of Kabul

The most reliable source we can trust for population count is USAID because that organization is the leader of development and data gathering in Afghanistan. According to them the population of the entire Kabul Province is 3,450,000. How do we get 5 million for the city of Kabul only? I've been to Kabul and it's a very small city. I also been to New York City which has about 8 million people and that's a very giant city in which most people live in high rise buildings. So how can Kabul, which doesn't have any buildings, be almost like NYC? This is ridiculous and doesn't make any sense. I live in Islamabad, Pakistan, which is very huge than Kabul and has less than 1 million people.--119.73.2.116 (talk) 13:51, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

the USAID data (on the population of the provinces and the cities) are too old. Its data is not even self-consistent. It gives the estimate of more than 32 million for the population of the country (based on the CIA factbook for 2008). But if you add the population that it gives for individual provinces, the sum is much less than that. The source of its data (about the population of cities and provinces) is not known (and it's not known whether it's based on a new estimate or based on an old census, in 80s). The only thing that is obvious is that its data is not self-consistent. Alefbe (talk) 15:53, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

At the very bottom of USAID Afghanistan page it states "Last updated May 23, 2009". As I said USAID is the leader in developing Afghanistan. They have been involved in executing projects in every village, district, and province of the country. Before doing anything they get complete data on the population of every province. Like they count the people of every village before they dig wells or build a school. So, their information is more reliable. We cannot rely on a news reporter because they make errors and write POVs in their articles. That ABC news article does not give any references. Stop being hard headed. This is not even worth arguing over.--119.73.2.116 (talk) 17:31, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

The phrase "Last updated May 23, 2009" means that they have updated something in their website, on May 23, 2009. It doesn't say anything about the source of the population estimates (for provinces and cities) or their dates. The only thing that is obvious is that this data is not consistent with its estimate of the population of the whole country for 2008. Alefbe (talk) 17:39, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I know that. The reason I mentioned is to explain that USAID's team is busy adding new information to its website. The USAID is USA's top agency in Afghanistan. The CIA factbook is just a website that gives us general information about countries. It may not be true in some cases. How reliable is CIA factbook? Who edits the CIA factbook? Where do they get the 30 million people living in Afghanistan from? At least we can see how USAID gets their information. If USAID was not sure about the exact population of Afghanistan then it would have used CIA's info.--119.73.2.116 (talk) 18:01, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

No matter how accurate the estimate of the CIA factbook is, the USAID website has used it for the population of the whole country [9]. So, the estimates that NSAID has reported in its website are not even self-consistent (and self-consistency is a minumum criterion to rely on a source). Alefbe (talk) 19:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, no matter what the real population of Kabul is, removing useful information (about its sister cities) and unjustified moving of irrelevant stuff to the lead like this edit is more like vandalism. Alefbe (talk) 17:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

You have to provide sources for the sister cities because anyone can add any city as a sister city. You making the page look sloppy and messy, adding too much unnessary information about how people first land in Istanbul and then come to Kabul. That's not even true because most flights to Kabul come from Dubai. I am trying to clean the page from mess so people will take time to read it instead of leaving it.--119.73.2.116 (talk) 18:01, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

It seems that discussion with you is useless. I'm talking about your edit and and the information about the roads that you moved from the transport section to the lead. instead of addressing that, you are now talking about the flights, which have nothing to do with that edit of yours (and my revert after that). Alefbe (talk) 18:45, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I was not understanding you. I removed unnessary titles such as "Engineer" and "Mir" (King) from names, fixed wiki-links, removed deleted or double photos, and other cleaning up. The intro needs to mention the most important things about Kabul, like where the city is located on earth, it's population, and to which cities it is connected by highways. I removed language info from the end of intro because there are many non Persians in the city. I agree that the Persian language is used more widely in the city, especially in government and business districts, but I also know that majority of Kabulis are fluent in both Persian and Pashto. Many of them also speak Urdu as well. If you insist on adding this language info, which creates confusion to readers, you may go ahead.--119.73.2.116 (talk) 00:58, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

New Tram Network

One day, I was watching Ariana TV (an Afghan TV channel), and in the news, it said that there is going to be a new tram network. They said it is currently under development and will serve all of Kabul by 2015.

I have been adding this, but someone keeps reverting it.

--AimalCool (talk) 17:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The pronunciation /kɑː'bol/ seems reasonable to me given Persian orthography. However, http://www.forvo.com/word/%DA%A9%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%84/ has something more like /'kɑːbl/ for Persian. What is the status of these different pronunciations? How is the word pronounced in Pashto?

Millercor (talk) 17:54, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

That's a different word. /'kɑːbl/ means cable (it's a French loanword in Iranian Persian and Afghans use its English pronunciation). In absence of showing short vowels, both /'kɑːbl/ and /kɑː'bol/ are written as کابل. Alefbe (talk) 18:16, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

/'kɑːbl/ is indeed a pronunciation of the name, especially in Kabul itself. But the correct way to pronounce the name (as it is done in the media and so forth) is /kɑː'bol/. Tajik (talk) 18:26, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

In Kabul itself, people pronounce it as something close to /'kɑːbəl/ (not exactly /'kɑːbl/). Alefbe (talk) 18:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

RV

I have reverted the edits by Akbabinnafih (talk · contribs) because they were unencyclopedic (he spelled Muawiyah wrong) and unsourced. Tajik (talk) 00:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted the latest edits by 119.73.6.117 because it was not a clean-up. Quite the contrary. Tajik (talk) 23:38, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Notable residents/people

How can Saad Mohseni and Wasef Bakhtari be notable people from Kabul if they one of them is born in London while the other is born in Balkh? If their names are in the list just because they currently live in Kabul (resident of Kabul), then 1) how can Raziq Faani's name be in the list because he died in California in 2007? 2) there are more notable residents of Kabul than those two. For example Hamid Karzai, Ramazan Bashardost, Abdullah Abdullah, Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai, Burhanuddin Rabbani, Ismail Khan, Ehsan Bayat etc. The section should be about "Notable People" who are from Kabul, because there are countless of "Notable Residents". (Ketabtoon (talk) 01:05, 2 February 2010 (UTC))

All three of them are native Kabulis. Raziq Faani is a native Kabuli from Barana, Saad Mohseni is Haji Mohsen's son who is from Asheqan-arefan and Wasef Bakhtari is from Kuche Qazi of Shoor-bazaar. You have done the same in this article[10]. Ahmad Zahir was born in Kabul but he was a native Laghmani so you did the right job by including him in that article rather than in here.--Inuit18 (talk) 04:35, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

The recommended title for sections like these, according to WP:WikiProject Cities/Guideline, is "Notable natives and residents". (I'll adjust it accordingly.) Such sections are to provide information, in prose form when possible, on "any famous or notable individuals that were born in, or have lived for a significant amount of time, in the city... If there are a lot of notable individuals, such as for larger cities and major metropolitan areas, it is common to link to a separate List of famous people from _ article." AtticusX (talk) 11:23, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Kabul city's population

The article writes that the population of Kabul city is around 3,568,500 however according to 2 of the 3 sources provided, the number is for the entire Kabul Province, not just Kabul city. We need to correct the population. It would be a good idea to use MRRD's stats at the moment. (Ketabtoon (talk) 04:06, 27 February 2010 (UTC))

The province is not a metropolitan area, province is more of a rural area. The Naval Postgraduate School is an accredited research university operated by the United States Navy and it states that the urban area (or inner city) of Kabul is made up of 615,900 residents.[11] The Afghan government (MRRD) states that the population of Kabul City is 1,925,548.[12] MRRD is refering to the Kabul District (metro area), which includes the small towns that are outside the urban area but still counted as part of the city. All the sources agree on the approximate 3.5 million population of Kabul province.Ahmed shahi (talk) 15:51, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

There are several sources which are more reliable or at least as reliable as yours source (US Navy report) and almost all of the report a population of at least 2 million for the city of Kabul. The number which your source mentions (615900) doesn't make sense at all (unless it only refers to the population of downtown). To report this number (which contradicts other reliable sources), you need to provide multiple independent reliable sources. Alefbe (talk) 22:39, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

615900 is only the population of the urban area of Kabul city, which is information provided by a research university.

Ahmed shahi (talk) 06:28, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

NPS is the only source which claims that the population of Kabul city (urban area of Kabul city) is around 600 thousand. And, it is not the most accurate or reliable source out there. It is an American research university, but the main question is "where did they get their estimate from?" (Ketabtoon (talk) 13:32, 13 April 2010 (UTC))

Are you government workers, researchers, or just Wikipedia editors? Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable "secondary sources".[13] NPS is a reliable secondary source. If the NPS estimate is unacceptable by you it's not difficult to contact NPS, send them an email and ask them to explain how they made this estimate. And no, NPS is not the only source which gives the 600 thousand figure, I've read some news reports years ago which also stated that in 2001 the population of the city was 500,000 [14], which was for the urban area, and there isn't that many buildings to house more than that.Ahmed shahi (talk) 14:51, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

• List of American cities with same population as Kabul
  • Boston (620,535)
  • Baltimore (636,919)
  • El Paso (613,190)
  • Memphis (669,651)
  • Milwaukee (604,477)

This gives you some idea what American NPS is trying to explain. Ahmed shahi (talk) 15:27, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Once again you are ignoring Wikipedia:Undue_weight#Undue_weight. At the moment, NPS is the only source which supports your claim and that is it. When it comes to population of a region, government of the region is the only acceptable source. Based on estimates from Central Statistics Office of Afghanistan, Ministry of Rural Rehabilitation and Development of Afghanistan and the United Nations, Kabul City's population was around 1,925,548 in 2003/2004 (most of the estimates are from that date) [15]. (Ketabtoon (talk) 18:35, 13 April 2010 (UTC))

I'm not here making own claims about the population, and NPS and I are not disagreeing with the 1,925,548 numbers, which is for the whole metro area of Kabul. You fail to understand that all Wikipedia articles about cities give 2 separate numbers for the population, one is a low number for the urban area only and another is higher for the whole metro area. The same must be done for Kabul city.

Ahmed shahi (talk) 00:55, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Discussion between User:Ahmed Shahi and User:Ariana310

Hi, The figure given by the MRRD of 3.4 million for the Kabul province, is not high at all. Many others sources give a figure around that number. However, I suggest using the official figures published by the CSO. For two reasons: first because it is the official statistics agency of Afghanistan (and there is no question of unreliability or whatever else), and secondly, because it is the most recent population estimation available. The CSO estimation is as of 2009, while the MRRD's is as of 2007 and the CSS's might be as of 2008. Please check this link: http://www.cso.gov.af/demography/population.html (the bottom row gives the estimation for the year 2009)

The source which you provided, CCS or NPS, is a secondary source. It is not like CSO and has no credibility. It has gathered all those information from other sources, probably from the UN, and has then prepared Kabul's profile. The figure which it gives for the Kabul city's population at 615,000 is obviously too low and unacceptable. First, it has not given any definition for "Urban area", what does it mean by that? Kabul PROVINCE has 15 districts, and Kabul city is one of its 15 districts. Kabul city is again divided into 18 districts called "Naahya". Now what does the term "urban area" refer to? Does it refer to the first and second districts or Naahya's of Kabul which are situated in the center of the city as the downtown? If it is, then it is imperfect. Kabul "city" is obviously larger and the urban population is certainly bigger. The term "urban" in the western countries has another definition according to different administration systems.

Now, I suggest using the CSO's official statistics of 3,568,500 for the Kabul province, and we can use the statistics of MRRD for the Kabul city (as a whole one district of Kabul province) of 1,925,548; which sounds totally reasonable. If you have lived in Kabul and have ever visited Kabul, you will agree that 615,000 is too low for the city, and the population is much more dense than that. Ariana (talk) 09:15, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree, it is not high. The province is not a metropolitan area, province is more of a rural area. The Naval Postgraduate School is an accredited research university operated by the United States Navy and it states that the urban area (or inner city) of Kabul is made up of 615,900 residents.[16] The Afghan government (MRRD) states that the population of Kabul City is 1,925,548.[17] MRRD is refering to the Kabul District (metro area), which includes the small towns that are outside the urban area but still counted as part of the city. All the sources agree on the approximate 3.5 million population of Kabul province. I hope you understand all this. Thanks, Ahmed shahi (talk) 15:48, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

The years (2007, 2008, 2009, and etc.) you mentioned doesn't affect the total numbers much. So don't let that worry you.Ahmed shahi (talk) 16:22, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Can you please give me one good reason why do you move to secondary sources instead of sticking to the primary and official sources? The Central Statistics Office is the primary source of statistics and data in Afghanistan. It itself conducts the surveys and makes appropriate estimation. While NPS or CSS is a secondary source. It does NOT make the estimation by itself. It reports from other sources such as CSO, UNHCR, UNDP or other institutions.

Can you also please specify which areas of Kabul district the "urban area" that CSS/NPS mentions encompasses? And which are the small towns that the metropolitan area include? There is no small town within the Kabul district. There are 18 Naahya within the Kabul district as a city, but no small "towns".

I still suggest that we can add 1.9 million of MRRD for Kabul city/district and 3.5 million for the metropolitan area which would be the Kabul province. Let's see what other editors have to say on this. Then we can make a decision. Thanks. Ariana (talk) 09:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

The reason is Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable "secondary sources".[18] The towns are located on the outskirt of urban Kabul, and they may not be called towns in Afghanistan but only I call them that. They are part of the city because you can still see the main buildings of Kabul from there, this is the meaning of a metropolitan area. In the western world those towns I'm referring to would be the suburbs, but in Afghanistan they are more like villages or towns within close proximity of the main urban city. Adding 3.5 million for the metro area is clearly misleading and an error because the province is not the metro area of Kabul. Read the article Metropolitan area and learn more about what it refers to. I agree, others may share their comments here. Thanks, Ahmed shahi (talk) 15:07, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Still we haven't got any precise definition for Kabul's "urban area". Which sectors of Kabul district are included in its definition? What you said "...because you can still see the main buildings of Kabul from there" is pretty much meaningless. The towns which are situated in the outskirts of Kabul city, let's say the suburbs, are covered in other districts of Kabul province. The Administration system in Afghanistan is not the same as in the western countries. 615,000 is too small and unacceptable. I am sure you will not find another single source which would support this figure. 1.9 million for Kabul City seems factual. Ariana (talk) 17:12, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

If figures from reliable sources are unacceptable by you then you must be here trying to push POVs, and, some of the things I mention here may sound meaningless to you but not to other editors, so keep such thoughts to yourself please. My point about the buildings of Kabul being visible from the towns on the outskirt of the city indicates that you're in the metro area but not in the urban area of the city. Villagers from the rural areas of Kabul province are not part of the Kabul metro area. The metro area only covers the "Kabul District", which includes the outskirt of the city and the main urban section. See the map on the right. Some of the mountains also divide the urban area from other parts of the city. You should read about other major cities of the world so you can understand things better may be then you'll learn to accept the government figures.Ahmed shahi (talk) 18:11, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Latest

You earlier did not accept User:Ketabtoon's and my statement that 615,000 for the Kabul city's population is TOTALLY inaccurate. And you kept denying the original sources that we presented from the Central Statistics Office of Afghanistan. I guess you have never been to Kabul, so it is hard for you to see a bold number for Kabul's urban population. I just came across the following paragraph of Encyclopaedia Britannica:

"Kabul's population is mainly Persian- (Dari-) speaking, although there is a large proportion of Pashtuns. Pop. (2006 est.) city, 2,536,300; metro. area, 3,138,100."

As you can see Britannica give 2.5 million for Kabul City's population and 3.1 million for the metropolitan area (which is the Kabul Province). I am going to modify the statistics in the article according to the latest estimations. Ariana (talk) 13:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Here is the exact estimated figures by the CSO (Central Statistics Office of Afghanistan) about the Urban and Metropolitan area's populations as of 1387 (2008/2009), taken from CSO Statistical Yearbook 2008/2009:

Kabul: Rural (599,800), Urban (2,850,000), Total (3,449,800)

So the Urban population is the same Kabul city's population, and the Total population is the Metropolitan area's population. Britannica has also acquired the same approach. It has considered the Urban population figure as Kabul city's population, and the Total population as the Metropolitan area's population; that was based on 2006 (1385) population estimates of the CSO.

To obtain the copy of the CSO Statistical Yearbook 2008/2009, go the CSO's website ([[19]]) and on the left bar, there is a link to the Statistical Yearbook. Or let me give you the direct link to the zip downloadable folder Here. You will see the PDF copy-image of the Population chapter in the sub-folders. Ariana (talk) 13:49, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

The same fact has been clearly explained in the same source which you provided, but none of us noticed it. In the MRRD's provincial profiles ([20]), it's written: "Around 19% of the population of Kabul lives in rural districts while 81% lives in urban areas." So the urban population is concentrated mainly in the Kabul district.

Or in the latest report (March 2009) by the Cooperation for Peace and Unity ([21]), it is mentioned (page 5): "Kabul city is home to nearly 80% of the provincial population of between two and a half and three and a half million people (MRRD Undated; NPS n.d.)........ Kabul province’s population, excluding Kabul city, is around 500,000 people, with the majority (some 70% speaking Pashto has their first language, and 30% speaking Dari)."

So most of the sources affirm that Kabul city's urban population make up almost 80% of total Kabul Province's population. The figure 2.8 million for Kabul city is exactly the 80% of total Kabul Province's population (3.5 million). Furthermore, most of the sources also confirm that the population of Kabul province excluding the Kabul city is around 500,000 inhabitants, exactly the opposite of what you were saying (615,000 for the Kabul city). I hope everything is clear now. Ariana (talk) 17:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Ariana310, if this is to me, visiting Kabul is not the way to determine the population. I agreed with the 2 million for the city and 3.5 million for the province, which is reported in all sources. You're still confused and wrongfully see Kabul (Capital city) and Kabul Province as one. You're in college in Europe and you can't figure this simple thing out? 3,449,800 for the metro (city) is false and misleading because that is the provincial population, which includes rural residents. "Metropolitan area" is not Kabul Province. Since Taliban removal in late 2001 to now the population has fluctuated with everyone running to the capital for security or financial reasons but then many went back to their native areas after development began there. So, it will be best that we use the latest figures instead of older. This is how all articles are edited. The reason why Kabul appears over-crowded in some images is because most of the people don't stay at home, they all come out in the day and walk around.

Ahmed shahi (talk) 22:36, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Was that your answer for all those points I made?? So are you suggesting that Encyclopaedia Britannica's denotation of Urban and Metropolitan population based on CSO's figures is wrong? When it comes to the History Section (Durrani Empire being the First or the Last empire), Britannica gains accuracy. But when it comes to the population or other areas, then it has mistaken?!

You could not provide any reliable source for your arguments. You cannot even provide another single source which says that Kabul city's population is 615,000. If you agreed with the 2 million, then why did you revert my edits? I am providing here the latest estimates available and you are reverting them to the old ones. You have a complaint pending on in the Administration's noticeboard for not respecting the Wikipedia guidelines and rules, and reverting well-sourced and accurate edits. Now you are repeating it. And furthermore, making a personal attack (You're in college in Europe and you can't figure this simple thing out?) will not help you anymore. I am reverting the edits back. If you didn't agree, then I will ask the view of other editors to see what they have to say on this issue. Till then, please don't revert. Ariana (talk) 00:02, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The sources you're relying on for the information are unreliable. You're pushing your POV which is too obvious because you're very much trying to raise the population to as highest and ignoring any reliable source that gives lower numbers. Encyclopedias are mainly used for history but when it comes to data on population we should use government sources. The Kabul article in Britannica gives a 2006 estimate and I have included that information in the demographic section but you decided to remove it. You also removed my latest edit regarding Kabul being 3,500 years old, with a reliable sources being cited next to it.

You are ignoring me everytime I say to you that Kabul Province is not Metropolitan area so stop putting the population of the province in the metro area's population because this is misleading and POV pushing.

I was reported by (User:Tajik) who is a trouble maker himself [22] and you're his associate. Your personal page says that you're studying at the University of Strasbourg in France (Europe) and if you find that as a personal atatck then you shouldn't reveal such information to the public. You misunderstood this: "Around 19% of the population of Kabul lives in rural districts while 81% lives in urban areas." The urban area[s] used in that line is not refering to Kabul city only, it is refering to all the town centers and cities across the Kabul province. I figured that since you are in France, where most people speak French language, you may be having trouble understanding the English vocabulary, but then again you've indicated on your personal page that you know English in its advance form so I don't know what's going on.

Editing Wikipedia is suppose to be fun, not a place to fight. It'll be a splended idea to ask for assistance from other editors who specialize in the demography of cities and seek their view point on this before you start removing important information from the article.

Ahmed shahi (talk) 12:31, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

@User:Ahmed shahi: You are continuously making Personal attacks and you are making no effort in scientifically and academically resolving the issue. PLEASE STOP FALSIFYING MY COMMENTS, AND PLEASE STOP CHANGING YOUR POSITION EACH TIME. Let me give you the answer point to point:

• (Encyclopedias are mainly used for history but when it comes to data on population we should use government sources.) Now this is changing position! In the earlier section, when I said "Can you please give me one good reason why do you move to secondary sources instead of sticking to the primary and official sources?", you replied by saying: "The reason is Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable "secondary sources".". Please be direct and honest in a debate.

If you are saying that "we should use government sources", then the official statistics agency of Afghanistan is the CSO. It clearly gives a figure of 2.8 million for the Urban population of Kabul.

• (The Kabul article in Britannica gives a 2006 estimate and I have included that information in the demographic section but you decided to remove it.) Please stop stating what is false. You did NOT add Britannica's figures, but you added your old figure (615,000). Here check once again.

• (You also removed my latest edit regarding Kabul being 3,500 years old, with a reliable sources being cited next to it.) It was definitely NOT me. Check the page history, you will find who exactly removed that sentence.

• (You are ignoring me everytime I say to you that Kabul Province is not Metropolitan area) You cannot compare countries with different territorial administrations. You cannot compare Afghanistan with the country you are living in. Encyclopaedia Britannica took the Kabul Province's TOTAL Population as Metropolitan area population for the Kabul city. In case, if you are reasoning that Britannica has mistaken, then that's your own POV. It's a reliable source, and according to the wikipedia guidelines we can use it.

• (Your personal page says that you're studying at the University of Strasbourg in France (Europe) and if you find that as a personal atatck then you shouldn't reveal such information to the public.) Yes, simply saying that I studied in Europe, it isn't a personal attack. But you attacked on me saying that I lack enough intellectual capacity to understand the issue despite me being enrolled in a European University. Here is what you said: ( You're in college in Europe and you can't figure this simple thing out?)

• My last point: PROVIDE ANOTHER SINGLE SOURCE WHICH CONFIRMS YOUR POINT THAT KABUL CITY'S URBAN POPULATION IS 615,000. You cannot even provide another single source except the NPS one. Two editors here,User:Ketabtoon and me, do not agree with you, and we have provided numerous sources, both official and non-official sources, and you still not agree to modify the article. This is your POV.

You just reverted again those edits, violating the Wikipedia:Three-revert_rule. I am going to report your non-cooperation, insisting on a single source, falsifying other's statements, changing your position during the debate, and making personal attacks instead of sound academic approach. I can see there would be no benefit in continuing this debate. Ariana (talk) 13:22, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but I haven't violated the 3rr, you should check your own edit history because maybe you've broken the 3rr. My latest edits were fixing stuff. I feel that you are here provoking me to an edit-war so then you can report me by acussing me of all sorts of ridiculous things, that's showing from your actions. First, your associate (User:Tajik) did this but since he failed now you want to go at it. If you were really interested in resolving this population dispute in a civil manner, instead of writing all this unnessary long stuff here about me, you should ask other editors who specialize in demography for help.

Ahmed shahi (talk) 13:39, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I am sure asking other editors will not have any positive result with you. Already, there are two editors in here who do not agree with you. User:Ketabtoon and me, and you are still insisting on your POV. Yes, I will shortly ask for the intervention of an administrator. Ariana (talk) 14:46, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Collage image

I propose a collage image be created especially for this article. This collage should have a panoramic view of the city itself, and photos or landmarks or significant spots in the city. This is standard practice for national capitals or large cities, and will help to resolve or at least minimize future conflicts, as it has to be approved by consensus.--RM (Be my friend) 17:55, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Mediation

Following a recent thread at WP:ANI, I have offered to mediate in a dispute between editors.

I consider that the mediation process is open to everyone. In particular, it is open to editors who have not previously been involved in this dispute, and to editors who have never edited this article.

I will post this message at the talk pages of Kabul and Kabul Province, at WP:ANI, and on the talk pages of the editors who appear to be involved already.

You may, if you wish, re-post this message elsewhere. If you choose to do so I strongly recommend you post this message and not a new message. I would also strong recommend you read and understand WP:CANVAS before doing so!

The mediation process will take place at User:TFOWR/Kabul.

Thank you! TFOWR^{This flag once was red} 15:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Areas of city

The section "Areas of city" seems completely useless to me. Its main purpose should have been to enlist the principal areas and neighbourhoods of the city, but I am afraid such a listing would be imperfect and each IP address will continue adding one or two irrelevant names. First, we have to determine which areas and neighbourhoods to be added; according to which criteria; should we only enlist the historical and commercially-important areas?. If we continue adding all the areas, we will end up having around 100 names, which would be completely irrelevant. I just deleted a large number of entries (around 25 names) - some were redundant, some were the names of some Bus Stations (!!), and others were situated completely out of the city.

Secondly, the listing does not follow the logic of the administrative division of the Kabul City; so what's the point of that? Kabul city has been divided to 18 districts; and these namings are not compatible with that. Finally, the transliteration (spelling) of these names are all incorrect. For example "Kartey" is in fact "Karta-ye" (کارتهء) which is originally a French word "quartier" meaning "district". In addition, separate articles created for some of the areas (such as Murrad Khani, Dashti Barchi, Taimany, Kartey Parwan, Kartey Naw, Karte Seh, and Char Qala) do not meet up with the Wikipedia:Notability criteria.

I propose to delete the section, and to mention the notable areas such as Kharabat and Wazir Akbar Khan (Kabul) in other paragraphs in the article. Cabolitæ (talk) 23:00, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. AtticusX (talk) 12:00, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

In looking at other city articles (New York City, London, etc) they all have a section about areas of the city. So, I wouldn't just removed the section especially if the only reason is its a hard to maintain. Can we just add criteria so people can easily tell if a section is not notable. Perhaps just add the standard city districts and add a comment that says "don't change this" above them. --MarsRover (talk) 16:56, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, not all city articles has such a section (for ex. Islamabad, New Delhi, etc.). And I think, if New York city, London, or Paris articles have such a section, it is because there needs to be a section like that, as each of those neighborhoods are commercially and politically important; which is not the case with Kabul.

The main point is that the neighborhoods in Kabul are not officially or administratively defined or determined unlike Baghdad, for example. The official administrative division divides the city into 18 districts, that's all. Beyond that, there is no sub-division defined neither by the Kabul Municipality, nor by the Kabul Province Prefecture. These given names of the neighbourhoods are usually unofficial, and there is no exact definition over its coverage or area limit. Cabolitæ (talk) 20:00, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Errors in Map of Antiquity - replace

I am new to WikiPedia but immediately noticed that the map used in the antiquity section is very POOR. 1st, it has a question mark (?) in what is today Turkmenistan & 2nd, look any any map & you'll find Armenia to the northwest of Greece - NOT where it's shown here... I hope that someone who is more proficient w/ maps can find a better source for this image!

201.173.54.177 (talk) 06:32, 12 June 2011 (UTC) Gracias, R.

The map does not display the current political division of the region. It displays the name of the regions only in 5th and 6th centuries AD. Therefore, the question mark on the region what is now Turkmenistan simply means that the author does not know what it was called back then (in 6th century) -- not that the author does not know that it's Turkmenistan down there! The boundaries of regions bearing the same name as today were not exactly the same in 6th century as what it is now today. So one must not make a comparison of the map with today's political boundaries. Cabolitæ (talk) 09:37, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

File:New terminal at Kabul International Airport in 2009.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Panorama Removed?!

I have added a panoramic view of the city since there wasn't one available several months ago. I just noticed that Hazaraguy have deleted that with no good reason. This is the article of 5 minutes before and this is the edit that has removed the Panorama picture. Does anyone know who this Hazaragay is and why did he remove the picture?
If the panorama picture is good to go, please confirm and we can reapply it to the article, if not we can leave it out.

A panoramic view of east side of Kabul city during daylight.

SiarFisher (talk) 21:51, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I am sure it was an aesthetic judgement on whether to include the image or not. You can just include it again to see if it will stay. IMHO, Panoramas are not very good fit in most articles. They are usually not about anything in particular and take up more space than other images. --MarsRover (talk) 04:23, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Well I'm not saying it's a good picture but it's good to have a panorama here since almost every capital on WP has one. I'll try to add in again to see what would happen! SiarFisher (talk) 18:44, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Try to get a better, more representative image. That's just a bunch of apartment buildings on an anonymous street with some clouds in the background. It's not even a panorama. It's just a fisheyed photo. Of an anonymous street with some clouds. — LlywelynII 23:53, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

ancient kabul

pusya was a son of bharat,brother of lord rama.he found a city in memory of lord hanuman named kapisthala.kapi means ape and sthala means place.then it was called kapithalla,kapthila,kabila and kabul later at muslim era. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.47.115.254 (talk) 18:23, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

A, sign your posts. =)

B, source? "Place of Apes" seems both specious and vandaly. — LlywelynII 23:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Discussion of Etymology, Ancient History

Is a mash of poorly-sourced conjecture. The entire section could do with a new map and a good scrubbing by way of the good folks at the Encyclopedia of Islam's article on Kabul. — LlywelynII 00:00, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Age of Kabul

I've removed a suggestion it could date to 3000BC which was based on a false dating of the Rig Veda. I'm not at all clear that academic sources claim that the Rig Veda definitely mentions Kabul as a city. We aren't even sure about Ptolemy, and I can find no reliable sources that give it a definite BCE date. The BBC site used as a source despite saying the Rig Veda mentions it also says it was built up around the Bala Hissar fort, dating to around 500 CE. Dougweller (talk) 11:32, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Population figures

How do we get 2011 figures from a 2009 source? Dougweller (talk) 11:42, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

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Mirwais Mena

There is a community called Mirwais Mena in Kandahar.... (regarding the section listing communities whose location is as yet unspecified in Kabul) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.180.160.115 (talk) 11:35, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Unintuitive piped links

The section 'NATO presence and the Karzai administration' (stable link) contains several unintuitive piped links:

• [[2008 Kabul Serena Hotel attack|Serena Hotel]]
• [[2009 UN guest house attack in Kabul|UN guest house]]
• [[February 2009 Kabul raids|Ministry of Justice]]
• [[Attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul|Indian Embassy]]

Such links should be avoided or modified (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking#Piped links and Wikipedia:Piped link#Intuitiveness for additional information). Thank you, -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 17:30, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

File:Nader Khan Avenue in Kabul on a snow day.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Population

I've noticed the back and forth on this, and I think we need better sourcing. The cited sourced does not say anything about metro area, but assuming its 3.2 million figure for the city proper is correct, the metro-area population is larger. We shouldn't say it's 4 million without a source, but we certainly can't say it's 3.2 million. Rivertorch (talk) 22:18, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

The 3.2 million seems to be correct. The organization who does this work in Afghanistan gives "3,289,000" for the city of Kabul, [23], which is considered a metropolitan area if you look at how the city is laid out at google maps, and 3,950,300 for the entire Kabul Province (640,900 rural + 3,309,400 urban = roughly 4 million).--182.177.30.14 (talk) 18:21, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Hmm. That makes good sense. Still, we need to be careful to avoid synthesis. Rivertorch (talk) 19:55, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Timeline of Kabul

What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content. Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 15:48, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Reason for lack of safety

The article says, when talking about the bus service "Flying is safer, especially for foreigners." If the article could elaborate on that, and say why bus travel is less safe, and what the danger is. Vinay93 (talk) 18:43, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

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History section

I think there's too much content about the Afghan conflict in the History section (after "20th century") rather than things about the city of Kabul in particular. The detailed conflict stuff are already covered in their respective articles too. Is anyone willing to cleanup the section? --Drayqueen (talk) 15:58, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Afghanistan, landlocked multiethnic country located in the heart of south-central Asia. Lying along important trade routes connecting southern and eastern Asia to Europe and the Middle East, Afghanistan has long been a prize sought by empire builders, and for millennia great armies have attempted to subdue it, leaving traces of their efforts in great monuments now fallen to ruin. The country’s forbidding landscape of deserts and mountains has laid many imperial ambitions to rest, as has the tireless resistance of its fiercely independent peoples—so independent that the country has failed to coalesce into a nation but has instead long endured as a patchwork of contending ethnic factions and ever-shifting alliances — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.94.83.10 (talk) 04:03, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

New Mayor of Kabul is Ahmad Zaki Sarferaz

The last mayor who assumed office in 2010 resigned back in 2014. There is no article created about the new mayor yet. This link has details about new mayor http://ap.buffalo.edu/events/2019/mayorahmedzakisarferaz.html If someone is reading this can you create new wiki page for Ahmed Zaki Sarferaz and update the Kabul page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yungeditor (talk • contribs) 06:59, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Wrong informations

Can you please protect the kabul page because some pashtuns adding wrong information Antivirus20 (talk) 10:32, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Zarnagar Mosque - panoramio (1).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:17, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Edit warring

@131.111.185.15: Please read the guidelines. The responsibility is on YOU to show why the source is WP:RS and reach WP:CONSENSUS. Can you please explain why the source is WP:RS? The source is severely outdated, as it was published in 1868. Please read WP:AGE MATTERS as well.--HistoryofIran (talk) 23:38, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

The topic we are discussing has been aptly documented by Sir John William Kaye, a well know British military historian. please see vol 3 page 155. There are no extended claims, only a direct quote from an authentic well documented source. During the British occupation Indian subcontinent the boundaries between nations were much more porous and the modern day Kambojas have migrated eastwards over the course of many centuries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.185.15 (talk) 00:05, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

@131.111.185.15: Repeating yourself isnt much helpful. Saying that the source is reliable by claiming that x is a prominent historian (without even anything to back that up) is not really convincing. Also, are you gonna address the fact that this source is outdated (WP:AGE MATTERS)? --HistoryofIran (talk) 05:12, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

A couple of points: RE a publication in 1868, that doesn't make it invalid, especially in the context of etymology; Read [24] WP:AGE MATTERS - "With regard to historical events, older reports tend to have the most detail, and are less likely to have errors" Secondly, the onus is on you, to provide a rational explanation for refusing an authentic source and deliberately editing valid information on the subject. It is not sufficient to have a hunch, you need to specifically provide the parameter on the basis of which you claim the reference is not reliable. It is quite clear that the argument of age is arbitrary, By your logic, one should not refer to any sources beyond the past 50-100 years? Please take time to read the source before further discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.185.15 (talk) 16:10, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

This is about the etymology of a name, not historical events. The guideline is referring to primary sources, which this one isn't. You're yet to show why the source is WP:RS. Edit warring isn't gonna get you anywhere - you do realize you have to reach WP:CONSENSUS? --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:12, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

"Soviet occupation, civil war and Taliban rule", and then ...

What section titles should follow section "Soviet occupation, civil war and Taliban rule"?

"Governments heavily supported by occupation forces"?
"Occupation era (2001-2021)"?

(The section titles should reflect that something has happened since "Taliban rule (2001)" and Taliban rule now, twenty years later.) 89.8.152.94 (talk) 23:09, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Good enough?

• "conducting amputations against common thieves, and hit-squads from the infamous "Ministry for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice" watching public beatings of people".
  Not good enough, I think. 89.8.152.94 (talk) 23:43, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Boundaries

I understand that there is a Kabul Province, and it includes Kabul District, but is there a municipal level below the district with seperate boundaries? I ask, because he's the general shape I keep seeing for the district:

https://mapsynch.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=fe0f16a7b8da4157a7d7f9451a802d74&entry=8

But then I see that there are 22 "city districts" whose boundaries don't seem to correspond to those of the district:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Location-of-Districts-3-and-5-on-the-Kabul-City-district-map-Source-Ministry-of-Urban_fig3_325464117

I realize the whole administration isn't fully developed and there are disputes over boundaries, but do we have any maps showing the the city districts within the Kabul District, and the status of the areas in the district outside the city districts? Are those sub-districts? Is Kabul governed from the District level or a municipal level? --Criticalthinker (talk) 08:07, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Okay, reading more into this, it appears that that the province and district/wuleswali level are administrative divisions, and that the municipality/shārwāli is a political divisions which does not directly relate to the boundaries of the district and province. And, in fact, some of the municipal districts/nāhia actually span beyond the Kabul District into other districts. That still, however, leaves open my question about the status of areas in Kabul District outside the municipal districts. Do these rural areas have any separate status at all, or are they governed directly at the district level as some kind of unincorporated areas? I'm also curious if I got it correct that some of the territory of Kabul Municipality lies outside the Kabul District's boundaries?--Criticalthinker (talk) 10:06, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been forgetting to reply, here's what I think I know right now. Yes, there is a municipal level in addition to a district level. I've been trying to find a map of Kabul's districts and I've found a few at humanitarianresponse.info (that I haven't looked closely at, but they don't seem too useful). On how things are governed, my understanding is that there are three levels of subdivision: village (or city), district, and province. I don't know how much governing occurs in villages. Rural areas outside cities/villages don't have any special status, they would probably be governed at the district level. —Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 10:34, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

I just want to make sure that the article is very clear when giving figures if it's giving figures (area, population, mayors, etc) for the municipality, the district, or the urban area/metropolitan area (which doesn't completely cover the municipal boundaries, but also goes outside of them). For instance, it's not clear which of these the population and land area in the infobox explains. I imagine it's just the urban area and not some administrative or political subdivision, but that's just a guess. I realize these things aren't entirely ironed out by Afghanistan, itself. But if we know, we should clarify. BTW, this isn't just a problem with this article, but with a lot of large city articles since any given country may prioritize differently what they mean by "city". --Criticalthinker (talk) 07:22, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Incorrect word

This sentence seems to be incorrect: is watch the right word here?

"conducting amputations against common thieves, and hit-squads from the infamous "Ministry for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice" watching public beatings of people.[91]" --2601:600:A37F:F111:48D1:7829:9B17:742A (talk) 03:37, 9 September 2021 (UTC)