Talk:Junbo-Ritsugō

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	This article was accepted from this draft on 24 September 2024 by reviewer Timtrent (talk · contribs).

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Comments left by AfC reviewers

Comment: also needs a lot of cleaning up but based off the sources so far, it has gng potential. brachy08 _{(chat here lol)} 04:38, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Hi Camillz, I see this more as a List of Junbo-Ritsugō but the issue I see is Junbo-Ritsugō is not mentioned in the main articles so there's a disconnect. (Apologies if I am not using the term/title correctly). S0091 (talk) 18:35, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How Princess Noriko is Emperor Tsuchimikado aunt.

Go to Emperor Tsuchimikado -> then his father Emperor Go-Toba -> then his father Emperor Takakura -> go to the Genealogy section of his page -> go down to the bottom to Court Lady: Kogō-no-Tsubone -> "Second daughter: Imperial Princess Hanshi/ Noriko" Camillz (talk) 13:48, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The source you have provided to confirm your added information that is citation 5 (Ponsonby-Fane, R. A. B. (2014-06-03). Studies In Shinto & Shrines. Routledge. p. 133. ISBN 978-1-136-89294-3.) states the following:

"Noriko-ns. (2). Takakura-Shinno. 4. (Resigned on her father's death ; became Jumbo to Tsuchimikado with title of Kogo and was called BOmooin. Known as lnukuma DO Saiin and Rokkaku no Miya.) Noriko-ns, (5). Go-Toba. 9. (Retired in Kcoryaku II on account of illness. but lived till 74; became a DUD: knOWD as Kayo-monin.)"

The source does not mention that Noriko was the aunt of Tsuchimikado and it does not provide the genealogical table that you are showing above. The source needs to contain the information you cannot just do original research. --Guest2625 (talk) 14:22, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a way then you'd recommend I word it to show how they're related. The average person isn't going to know about this title, it would probably be a person researching for a reason so they'd look at the other pages anyways (Although obviously Wikipedia themselves don't recommend you use this sight as a main source) Camillz (talk) 14:30, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Citation 6 which you found recently is a good source. The table in it should help you verify a bunch of your sourcing issues in regards to the empresses who were honorary consorts of the emperor. --Guest2625 (talk) 02:20, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Article should be in draft space until the introductory sentence is verified

This article is not ready for being in Wikipedia's main space. As I mentioned in an edit summary, at a minimum the introductory sentence of this article needs to be verified with a reliable source. The core of this article is the statement:

"Junbo-Ritsugō (Japanese: 准母立后), is a Japanese title referring to an honorary empress, or the honorary mother of the Japanese Emperor."

Not a single one of the sources in this article contain the term "Junbo-Ritsugō (Japanese: 准母立后)". If the term does not appear in any of the sources, how can an article be written on the term? How do you know if the term "Junbo-Ritsugō (Japanese: 准母立后)" exists? How do you know if "Junbo-Ritsugō (Japanese: 准母立后)" is a title or a term? How do you know if there are not other terms/phrases in Japanese meaning the same thing? And what is the common term for the concept?

In terms of the body of the article, the way the sourcing was done is not ideal. It is clear by clicking on the listed empresses that the sources were cut from the respective Wikipedia articles without regard to what the sources state. There are multiple reasons why this is not good practice. Citations can shift around in articles as they are edited with time. Citations generally verify only the material in the neighboring sentence. Also, sometimes other editors are simply not reliable. It is best practice to double check the sourcing. --Guest2625 (talk) 02:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The title is in Japanese. In English it is literally just the honorary empress to the emperor. If you believe it should be made a draft then discuss the issue with the page reviewer. Camillz (talk) 13:47, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I should clarify. Usually in English we use "Junbo" not the full title (see the Japanese version of the page https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%87%86%E6%AF%8D) Camillz (talk) 13:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank-you. I have already seen the Japanese Wikipedia article on Junbo (准母) that is where you got "citation 3" in this Wikipedia article. If you could provide the page number and a quotation from the book which confirms the statement in your article:

"The title was used when the emperor needed an honorary empress to perform certain tasks. The title was only used ceremonially, typically by a female relitive who was a previous empress. It could also be used for an honorary empress dowager, not just honorary empress."

That would be helpful. Here is the citation from this article

白根陽子「天皇家領の伝領と女院の仏事形態」『女院領の中世的展開』（同成社、2018年） ISBN 978-4-88621-800-1

And here is the citation from the Japanese article

白根陽子「天皇家領の伝領と女院の仏事形態」『女院領の中世的展開』（同成社、2018年） ISBN 978-4-88621-800-1

Page numbers are really important for verification purposes. Two other useful Wikipedia articles on the topic are the Japanese Wikipedia article on Empress (jp:皇后) and the Chinese article on Junbo (zh:准母).

The article still fails verification. No reliable source has been provided which defines the specific term "Junbo-Ritsugō (Japanese: 准母立后)". Also, the synthesis of citation 1 and citation 2 (WP:SYNTH) to understand what "Junbo" means is not ideal and verges on original research. If you could provide a reliable source which defines the specific term "Junbo-Ritsugō (Japanese: 准母立后)" that would be great. --Guest2625 (talk) 07:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you and I will do so. I can't right now as I will be busy for a few hours but I will get to it. Again thank you for viewing the Japanese page. I'm sure it clears a few things up. Camillz (talk) 08:05, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Page 187 in the reference "白根陽子「天皇家領の伝領と女院の仏事形態」『女院領の中世的展開』（同成社、2018年） ISBN 978-4-88621-800-1" seems to be the correct page. I will look more into it before I can confirm anything. Camillz (talk) 13:55, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have found many books with the title Junbo-Ritsugō! This is amazing progress. I will make sure all books validate the claim, thus this could take a few days as they are in Japanese. (Note when I say they contain the title Junbo-Ritsugō, I mean they have Junbo-Ritsugō but in Japanese, so "准母立后") Camillz (talk) 13:58, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Guest2625 Please see that WP:DRAFTIFY suggests that a return to Draft: space is not a correct approach. Please refer to item 6 in WP:DRAFTNO.

Your route to a return to draft is WP:AFD with a nomination to Draftify is you believe it belongs in Draft. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 07:23, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. The primary concern is the poor quality of the sourcing, which does not allow the article's content to be verified. There should be an article on Junbo (准母), so deletion is not what is wanted. One source has been provided that has the word Junbo in it, while zero sources have been provided for the phrase Junbo-Ritsugō. The citation needed/failed verification tags will warn the reader of the issue. --Guest2625 (talk) 08:31, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]