Talk:Jumping (horse)

Oops, well...

Well, I didn't really mean to create this page just yet, but I suppose it's not a tragedy. More to come. Do feel free to leave suggestions about how to phrase the introduction. Countercanter (talk) 16:37, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gallery

World record high jump.
Refusal
Refusal
Jumping crooked.
Approach
Bascule.
Bascule.
Retroflexing the hindlimbs.
Landing.
Recovery
Animation
Stills of the animation.
"Phases of jumping"
Steeplechase
Hunt race/Point-to-point
More steeplechase
Point-to-point
Style fault: legs crossed
Style fault: hanging legs
Style fault: poor foreleg technique
Style fault: jumping flat, no bascule (contextualize; OK for cross country)
Show hunter
Style fault: poor foreleg technique
Free jumping or loose jumping

To Do

Wikilink between this article and the many articles that refer to jumping. These articles include equestrian sports such as show jumping, eventing, fox hunting, steeplechasing, modern pentathalon etc; breed profiles that select for jumping form such as Belgian Warmblood, Holsteiner, Selle Francais, Hanoverian, etc.; and the Studbook selection article.

The "Bascule" article should also be merged into this one, as bascule will be covered as part of jumping form.

This article will address at least the following questions:

How do horses jump?
What makes a "good" jump, or "good" jumper? Including conformational characteristics, movement characteristics, interior qualities; evaluating jumping by free jumping.
How does one breed for "good" jumpers?
"How do I make my horse jump?" (I have heard this out of people's mouths!) or, training horses to jump. This section will include a warning about the dangers of jumping, especially for novices w/o professional instruction.
What are common injuries and lamenesses in jumping horses?
Do wild horses jump? Do horses like to jump?
When did people start asking their horses to jump?
How high/far can horses jump?

Comments and recommendations of things to ad, or people to keep in mind, are appreciated. Countercanter (talk) 15:18, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notes and sources

KWPN Linear Scoresheet [1]

Jumpers need a more horizontal position of the neck in order to collect themselves just before and during take-off.
Strong muscling [of the line of the loins] is needed to stretch the back and hindquarters during the second phase of the jump.
Take off: direction (upwards - forwards): The measure in which the horse is able to push the withers upward.
Take off: quickness (quick - slow): The time elapsed during the last canter stride before the jump—the time between when the forelegs and the hindlegs hit the ground and the moment when the horse actually leaves the ground.
Technique: foreleg (bent - stretched): The measure in which the shoulder bends, in combination with the upper arm, forearm and the cannon; ‘tuck’.
Technique: back (rounded - hollow): The measure in which the neck and back follow the arc over the jump; ‘bascule’.
Technique: haunches (open - fixed): The measure in which the angles of the haunches are able to open during the second phase of the jump.
Scope (much - little): The ability of the horse both to jump with upward power while at the same time developing a forward direction.
Elasticity (supple - stiff): The measure in which the entire jump (including the landing) flows; the horse must be elastic through the body.
Care (careful - not careful): The natural ability of the horse to not make any errors over a jump; the horse’s desire not to knock down a rail.

Morteza Shahbazi Moghaddam & Narges Khosravi. A Biomechanical Approach to Modeling Horses Kinematics and Kinetics; Determination of Legs Muscle Stiffness Coefficients. European Journal of Scientific Research. 2008 22(1): 117-128. [2]

Unlike human athletes, horses are unable to significantly alter their body positions during jumping and therefore need to raise their CGs substantially, in order to clear the fence. The take-off is crucial to the jump outcome. Jumping requires the horse to raise its centre of mass high enough for all of its body parts to successfully clear the height and width of a fence. The jump should be viewed as an increased part of the suspension phase or an elevated canter stride as it occurs between the stance phase of the fore and hind limbs, for this reason jumping is mostly performed whilst cantering.

The jumping process is broken down into five sections: • Approach • Takeoff • In flight/suspension • Landing • Getaway

The last stride before take off tends to be a shorter than the previous stride, the neck is stretched forward and downward in preparation for the take off. This is to help lower the horses' centre of mass. The forelimbs are stretched forward and initiate the upward movement; then the horse is propelled into the air by the hind limbs which have a large stance phase allowing them to generate large impulses of power. The airborne phase is larger than the initial departure or landing stride according to the width and height of the fence. Once the horse has taken off the body and limb segments are coordinated so that the angular velocity of the trunk remains constant. The fore legs should tucked up in to the under carriage with the hind quarters generating the power. It is widely thought that the rider has limited affect on this angular velocity. However, the rider affects the way in which the horse meets the fence which can influence the take off phase. The rider should aim to be in balance with the horse throughout the jumping phases. A poorly balanced rider on take off can be the cause of faults.

Bobbert MF, Santamaría S, van Weeren PR, Back W, Barneveld A. Can jumping capacity of adult show jumping horses be predicted on the basis of submaximal free jumps at foal age? A longitudinal study. Vet J. 2005 Sep;170(2):212-21.

The purpose of this study was to quantify performance characteristics of good jumping horses, and to determine whether these were already detectable at foal age. Kinematic data were collected of horses performing free jumps over a 0.60 m high fence at six months of age and of these same horses jumping with a rider over a 1.15 m high fence at five years of age. At five years of age the horses were divided into three groups on the basis of a puissance competition: a group of seven best jumpers that made no errors and in the end cleared a 1.50 m high fence, a group of nine worst jumpers that were unable to clear a 1.40 m high fence, and an intermediate group of 13 horses. Longitudinal kinematic data was available for all seven best jumpers and for six of the nine worst jumpers. Average values of variables for the best jumpers were compared with those of the worst jumpers for the jumps over 1.15 m.

In the group of best jumpers, the forelimbs were shorter at forelimb clearance due to increased elbow flexion, and the hind limbs were further retroflexed at hind limb clearance. The same superior technique in clearing fences with the limbs was also found in this group at six months of age. Nevertheless, for individual horses it turned out to be too far-fetched to predict adult jumping capacity on the basis of kinematic variables collected during submaximal jumps at foal age.

Meershoek LS, Schamhardt HC, Roepstorff L, Johnston C. Forelimb tendon loading during jump landings and the influence of fence height. Equine Veterinary Journal, Supplement. 2001 April(33):6-10.

Lameness in athletic horses is often caused by forelimb tendon injuries, especially in the interosseus (sic) tendon (TI) and superficial digital flexor tendon (SDF), but also in the accessory ligament (AL) of the deep digital flexor tendon (DDF). In an attempt to explain the aetiology of these injuries, the present study investigated the loading of the tendons during landing after a jump. In jumping horses, the highest forces can be expected in the trailing limb during landing. Therefore, landing kinematics and ground reaction forces of the trailing forelimb were measured from 6 horses jumping single fences with low to medium heights of 0.80, 1.00 and 1.20 m. The tendon forces were calculated using inverse dynamics and an in vitro model of the lower forelimb. Calculated peak forces in the TI, SDF and DDF + AL during landing were 15.8, 13.9 and 11.7 kN respectively. The relative loading of the tendons (landing forces compared with failure forces determined in a separate study) increased from DDF to TI to SDF and was very high in SDF. This explains the low injury incidence of the DDF and the high injury incidence of the SDF. Fence height substantially influenced SDF forces, whereas it hardly influenced TI forces and did not influence AL strain. Reduction of fence height might therefore limit the risks for SDF injuries, but not for TI and AL injuries.

Countercanter (talk) 14:01, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Be sure to make clear that the vertical component of take-off velocity is more important to successfully clearing an obstacle than the horizontal component. This jives with the practice of faulting horses who jump "flat" and use their momentum to carry themselves across an obstacle. Very Important Point.
Note: Better jumpers place their hindlegs close to the fence at take-off, have a take-off velocity vector with greater vertical component than horizontal component, draw their forelegs closer, retroflex their hindlimbs further, and land with their forelimbs closer. In other words, they rely on jumping POWER, not their own momentum. This data also suggests that the conformational qualities that enable a tight front end and retroflexed hind end do not counteract those conformational qualities that enable powerful jumping. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Countercanter (talk • contribs) 13:51, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dude, I found it!

Hi CC. Found the article. Question: How should this dovetail with show jumping? Clearly a different topic, but I wonder how they should interrelate...some of the concepts may work better in the competition articles...? Don't know, only raising food for thought. By the way, another way to work on a rough draft is with a sandbox off your user page (see my talk page for the links to most of mine...) Montanabw^(talk) 03:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 10 September 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Problem solved by the addition of a hatnote to Show jumping. – Wbm1058 (talk) 13:17, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jumping (horse) → Horse jumping – The page title should use natural title disambiguation instead of parenthetical disambiguation. Moreover, the move would reduce confusion; Horse jumping is currently a redirect to Show jumping, which makes finding this page difficult. I take no position on whether the two articles in question overlap in topic, but since we do have two separate articles they should both be findable. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 00:52, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support this is about "horse jumping" in sports, not "jumping" of horses in all its aspects. -- 70.51.202.113 (talk) 04:57, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: This article IS about jumping horses in "all its aspects" but people who don't know the technical terminology and are looking for show jumping info will search for "horse jumping." (People interested in the sport will actually most likely search for "jumping" or "jumpers" and then when they go to jumping will add "horse" to their search.) While I am normally a proponent of natural disambiguation, here WP:PRIMARY is the competition; this is about the biomechanics, with the show applications mentioned primarily in the lead... unlike the more unique words for equine gaits, trot, canter and so on, we need to disambiguate here. I'm not vehement on this issue, but I think that the sport will be the most likely target for the search phrase "horse jumping." I did add a hatnote to the show jumping article for those seeking this one. That should solve any findability problem. Montanabw^(talk) 05:20, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- It is most certainly not jumping in all its aspects, it clearly has a rider. Horse do jump when they are wild, and this article has nothing to do with any of the aspects of a jumping horse in most contexts that are not related to the equestrian sports. It is not a cavalry charge and jumping an obstacle, or a fox hunt on horseback and jumping obstacles. The described process is clearly for equestrian sports events. -- 70.51.202.113 (talk) 04:25, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  - You haven't read the article very thoroughly and you really don't know much about horses, do you? Certainly, horses will occasionally jump an obstacle in the wild, but they are not antelope or deer (for one thing, the wild subspecies are native to steppe terrain, not forests). You clearly didn't note the see also section. We already have about a dozen horse jumping sport articles, not only show jumping but show hunter, eventing, fox hunting, field hunter, steeplechase, Hurdling (horse race), and so on. As for light cavalry and heavy cavalry, both prefer to avoid jumping during a charge, where possible. I fail to see what you would add to this article and, more to the point, why it has anything to do with a rename. Montanabw ^(talk) 05:15, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The page is at a perfectly good title that adequately describes its content. There is absolutely no reason to move it, nor any reason that it "should" be titled differently. If it isn't broken, why try to mend it? The Horse jumping redirect is also correct; if there were a third possible target for it (which I think there is not?), it would need to be made a dab page. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:09, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support - WP:NATURAL. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 17:55, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, fine title for the content, + people searching for jumping should find this easily, - who would search starting with "Horse"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:59, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. It's perfectly fine the way it is, and moving it would just make it harder to find it, especially for people who don't know much about jumping horses in the first place and are trying to find the article so they can learn.White Arabian mare (talk) 19:39, 12 September 2015 (UTC)White Arabian mare[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Comment on Muybridge horse film

Hi I modified the caption on the Muybridge film to emphasise the fact that the film illustrates perfectly the old style of jumping that was considered correct before the modern 2 point stance was brought in. The poor form of the rider is to be put into context especially for those interested in the historical aspects of jumping. Federico Caprilli's style went against the way that jumping was being taught for centuries. Almost all the paintings and early photos of jumping on a horse that I have found show the rider sitting back and leaning back pulling the horse's head up. This is why I cancelled the good faith modification by Montanabw Domdeparis (talk) 12:11, 6 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

ok I'm not going to enter into a puerile battle with Montanabw about a couple of words that I added to clarify the caption. I maintain my comments and I consider the modification totally justified and I have given the relevant sources to back it up but it doesn't seem to matter to him/her...so be it... Domdeparis (talk) 13:14, 7 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So if you have a source from circa Muybridge era where it says that it's OK to hit the horse in the back and jerk them in the mouth, go for it. I don't see one. I agree that Caprilli's forward seat revolutionized jumping and that the upright seat was favored prior to Caprilli, but really, show me a source that justifies jerking the horse in the mouth upon landing. Seriously. Montanabw ^(talk) 17:43, 7 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry Montanabw I would suggest that it is useful to read little more instead of staying camped on one's own positions. Jerking or pulling (it's just a question of semantics really) WAS the "correct", accepted way of jumping at one time and Caprilli changed all of that notably because the "correct" style of jumping which was supposed to be kinder on the back of the horse actually hurt its mouth. Have a look and read of this web site http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/italian-cavalry-school-1906/ where it states "The old jumping seat involved the rider using long stirrups, keeping his legs pushed out in front of him, and his body leaning back, pulling the reins, as the horse took the fence. This position had serious problems, first and foremost because the horse was uncomfortable being hit in the mouth over every obstacle."

You are judging the photo with your knowledge of biomechanics and horsemanship of today. I am trying to nuance the remark with historical background. Here is another example if you like, in modern competition it is forbidden to wear spurs capable of wounding the horse (FEI RULE Article 538.1.3 Spurs) but not so long ago "prick" spurs were considered perfectly reasonable and were authorised. If you captioned a photo/painting of a competitor from this time by saying "note the forbidden spurs that he is wearing" you would be wrong. if you wrote "note the spurs that are forbidden by today's standards" you would be correct. Domdeparis (talk) 09:29, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Montanabw You said, and I quote ":So if you have a source from circa Muybridge era where it says that it's OK to hit the horse in the back and jerk them in the mouth, go for it."

Muybridge's photos date to 1872, Caprilli developed his theories from 1897.

If you want more references try reading the book published in 1932, Riding Reflections by Piero Santini who was a student of Caprilli where he explains

"At the time of Caprilli’s appearance on the scene of Pinerolo, horsemanship there, as elsewhere in the world, was based on severe bits and on leaning back at jumps with the feet thrust forward in such a way that the rider was practically dependant on the reins for keeping his seat, and on that most illogical of all theories, lifting the horse over the jump by violently jerking his head up…"

you can check the book at this site and when you have done I would ask you to revert to my edit, as a show of good faith.

https://books.google.fr/books?id=fyJ-CgAAQBAJ&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&dq=riding+reflections&source=bl&ots=ZuKhSR8X71&sig=7MbwYKkgzB_54K5hfvWZGapBLsk&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVw8zk2czMAhXC2xoKHWI5DKsQ6AEIVjAG#v=onepage&q=head&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Domdeparis (talk • contribs) 10:05, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. Well, that IS interesting. I do wonder how widespread that notion was. Nonetheless, I still think that in this context, it's important to note that the Muybridge film shows rider form that is wholly unacceptable in the modern world, if for no other reason than to avoid accusations that jumping horses constitutes animal cruelty or something (just had another round of dealing with PETA stuff on racehorse articles, the annual Kentucky Derby drama... sigh... ) Montanabw ^(talk) 18:35, 13 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So Montanabw no apologies ? No "ok my bad" despite the fact that I have found (in about 2 minutes worth of searching) a reference that backs up what I've been saying all along you still have found a way of pouring doubt on it "I do wonder how widespread that notion was" and just to show that you think you're still right a ridiculously long comment on the image to justify your stubbornness? Good grief...teenagers...sigh Domdeparis (talk) 08:33, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I see absolutely no reason to apologize to you or for you to apologize to me. We disagreed, you presented evidence for your view, I acknowledge it as legitimate evidence but question how far it can be generalized. Nothing unusual about that. We have to not have sensitive egos on WP, anyone can edit, anyone can discuss. As for Caprilli's time, there were many ideas about horsemanship over the centuries that were abusive, there were other ideas that were kind. Similarly, today there are "natural horsemanship" practitioners who like to claim that they have discovered humane treatment of horses and almost everything that went before was cruel and abusive. This is why I question the universality of Santini's observations, many "new and improved" methodologies start out either by criticizing what went before claiming to have found newly discovered ancient wisdom. My caption change was a good-faith attempt to address your concerns. Montanabw ^(talk) 17:01, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's not my ego that is in question I think. You maintained, without any evidence, that it was never normal practice to jerk the horses mouths by systematically undoing my modification despite my pointing you to relevant sources and when I quote a renowned expert and author, Piero Santini, a student of Caprilli, who wrote 5 published books on horsemanship and who wrote in both Italian and English saying that horsemanship there, as elsewhere in the world was based on a method ...of violently jerking his head up... you question the generality of this reference without any proof whatsoever just because it goes against your preconceived ideas...I would suggest that it is your ego that is in question. So as you so rightly point out anyone can edit so I will refer to my version which IMHO is more succinct and relevant than your long-winded addition.

Domdeparis (talk) 10:01, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this seems to be a storm in a teacup. My thoughts:

edit-warring isn't acceptable in this project, and needs to stop right now
personal remarks do nothing but inflame the discussion
the caption of an image is not the place for an unreferenced comment on the interpretation of what is shown; whether correct or not, that just looks like WP:OR
the article desperately needs a historical section, where exactly this sort of thing could (and should) be discussed with references to reliable sources
of which Santini surely is one

I've completely removed the comment from the caption in the hope of ending this trivial dispute. Please ping me if there are sources in Italian that might be useful here and you'd like help with translation. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:39, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. I saw Santini did criticize the method of jerking the horse in the mouth, but I could not locate a page site where he made a historic claim, Domdeparis, your source for the "old jumping school" comment was this one, and as far as it goes, I do not dispute that the method was taught-- at one point in time. I also happen to agree that Caprilli's changes were revolutionary. What I am trying to point out is that just because someone in the 19th century, prior to Caprili cooked up the notion that "helping" the horse by jerking it in the mouth was a good idea does not mean that was a methodology that was universally practiced from the dawn of time until Caprilli, and a statement such as "by modern standards" is misleading as well (quick examples of people riding with shorter stirrups and/or leaning forward in the saddle prior to Caprili: [3], [4] ). But if removing the whole comment solves the matter, I can live with that for now. {[u|Justlettersandnumbers}}, if you want to augment the "rarehistorical photos" source (which is a blog, so not ideal) with sources on Caprilli's studies of jumping horses, that is a great idea and I'm all for it. Montanabw ^(talk) 03:23, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I did wonder if the caption was the place for subjective remarks, but seeing as I am a relative novice to Wikipedia editing I did not want to remove a seasoned editor's work but seeing as the caption was misleading I added a word to help clarify which was not appreciated apparently (I got the impression that I had infringed some kind of copyright). This is a subject that I know a bit about as I am a translator and I had researched it for some work I was doing and I confess that I did not understand why my edit was systematically removed. As is the case with so many subjects, Horsemanship has changed radically over the millennia, even over a few decades and also depending on the countries. The way I learnt to ride in the UK 40 odd years ago is quite different to the way my daughters were taught to ride in France. A historical section would be very useful I think and if Montantabw would like to start it I would be happy to contribute with some of the research that I have been using. My apologies for the multiple edits but I was frustrated that my message was not getting through despite the references. Anyway water under the bridge etc.

Domdeparis (talk) 08:34, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to propose some idea in a new section here at talk, go ahead. This particular article is not high on my to do list at the moment, though I'd be glad to help other folks. FWIW, I've been wanting to do an overall history of horsemanship article for a long time, but it always winds up on the back burner. But if you want to pop by my sandbox or its talk page, that's one little coffee spot. As for here, maybe first look at the Frederico Caprilli article and see if there is info better covered there first.

I think you're right most of what we could put in a history section is already there. BTW I'm thinking about doing a French version of the article so I may be back for some advice as it'll be the first time I create rather than edit!!!

Domdeparis (talk) 15:16, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to contact Tsaag Valren who lives in France and is very active on fr wiki. Montanabw ^(talk) 23:39, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. You can create in french with title Saut du cheval. Thanks to you ;) --Tsaag Valren (talk) 10:27, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Tsaag Valren I'll try and get that started soon ! I'm a bit tied up what with work, freelance translating and volunteer work for one of the legs of the Global Champions Tour in Chantilly so it may not be for a while yet.

Domdeparis (talk) 09:19, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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