Talk:Judea and Samaria Area/Archive 2
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A note on the terms "Judea" and "Samaria"
Usage of the terms "Judea" and "Samaria" in article space appears to contravene 3 key Wikipedia policies: Naming Conventions, Undue weight and Neutral Point of View. [2][3] A large body of evidence has been collected during extensive discussions [4][5] (see list below) that unequivocally shows that these terms, alone and in combination, are almost entirely peculiar to Israel. As of today, no sources, reliable or otherwise, have been put forward that contradict this finding.
Discussion links (most closed, included for reference only):
MeteorMaker (talk) 16:33, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
- Here you've proven that you simply are not paying attention. The article is about Judea and Samaria, you want to rename is West and Bank? --Shuki (talk) 21:54, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
- You misunderstand. I'm not suggesting renaming, I just post the facts here for posterity and future reference, and this article is appropriate since much of the discussion referred to above took place here. The reason I posted it now is that I'm among a large group of editors who will become topic-blocked collectively within a couple of days due to an unfortunate ArbCom decision, and I don't want the painstakingly collected sources and our findings to sink into oblivion as a consequence. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:04, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Do NOT move without discussion and consensus
This article was moved to Judea and Samaria Area following the above closed discussion. Do not move it away from here withotu achieving a consensus.--Peter cohen (talk) 19:07, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- There wasn't much of a "discussion". It might not have been that prudent to initiate a page move in the midst of a raging arbcom case. Is the "Judea and Samaria Area" a popular term or is it some name that some Wikipedians thought was cool?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:46, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- I did not exactly make it a secret that I was making this suggestion, mentioning it at IPCOLL and on a page related to the Arbcom case. The wisdom of the timing of the move was questioned elsewhere, but people were free to raise that issue under the heading of the proposed move. As it was, nobody who either opposed the move or the timing bothered to record their view in this talk page during the three weeks between my initially questioning the name and the uninvolved admin closing the formal proposal I made after no one had replied to my initially question. The admin made a judgment of consensus and those who remained mute in the debate cannot blame that admin or myself for their not bothering to make their views known.
- If you think that there is the potential for a consensus for the original name, then raise a proposal here for a move back. Or go to the IPCOLL discussion on the use of the terminology and raise it there.
- I chose the name itself because that is what the Districts of Israel lists as the official name for the administration that covers the settlements in the area. All the articles on districts and this area are now named per the names given in that article. I am perfectly open for there to be another article that discusses ther term Judea and Samaria which discusses who uses it, who objects to it and the various scopes of its meaning - the settlements, the West Bank excluding those parts in Jerusalem District or a larger area. Given the controversy, I would expect that article to be extensively referenced.--Peter cohen (talk) 10:51, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Judea and Samaria" = "West Bank" ? WP:SYNTH!!
This is what happened when I added a ref to UNSC 242[1] in support of a longstanding assertion that the occupation of J+S isn't recognized by the UN:
- CanadianMonkey: Cited source makes no mention of Judea and Samaria
- MeteorMaker: Nothing strange, very few use the term "J+S". The UN refers to it as "territories occupied in the recent conflict".
- CanadianMonkey: If the UN does not use the term, it is original research, Find a source that explictly makes your claim
- MeteorMaker: Added cites that identify "occupied territories" with West Bank [2][3].
- CanadianMonkey: That is WP:SYNTH, or rather would be, if in fact the new source mentioned J+S, which it does not
In a nutshell: In order for User:CanadianMonkey to accept the fact that the UN has not recognized the occupation of the West Bank, he demands proof that Judea and Samaria = the West Bank, which strikes me an odd request from somebody with a moderate insight in world events in the last 50 years or so. Note that he doesn't express doubts of the reliability of the sources, only says it's WP:SYNTH as long as the ICJ doesn't use the exact phrase "Judea and Samaria" instead of "West Bank" — or maybe even if it did. Wikilawyering at its finest. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:13, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
- The argument you are making in the article is that "the UN does not recognize Judea and Samaria as a district of Israel". I had no idea that the UN was in the business of "recognizing" a member state's internal administrative districts, so I ask for a source for this. Instead, you have provided the following synthesized argument, incorporating many elements of original research not even found in the sources you have attempted to synthesize together, along the line of :
- "The UN says a resolution to the conflict involves Israeli withdrawal for territories it captured in 1967 " (source A, which does not mention J+S at all)
- "The West Bank is a territory captured in 1967 (source B)
- Synthesis of A+B, plus original research, to form :Israel must withdraw from the West Bank (original research conclusion C)
- Complete original research 'The West Bank and "Judea and Samaria" are the same thing (no source) (original research statement D)
- Synthesis of C+D, to argue that Israel must withdraw from Judea and Samaria, and finally
- If Israel must withdraw from Judea and Samaria, then the UN does not recognize it as an administrative district of Israel. (Pure original research)
- Please stop this doing this. If there is a source that says "the UN does not recognize Judea and Samaria as an administrative district of Israel" - simply quote it. If there isn't, don't use original research in order to place this into the article, and stop your edit war against consensus. Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:30, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
- The UN does not recognize Israel's claim to the West Bank, which Israel calls "Judea and Samaria". That Israel has declared it an "administrative district" is completely immaterial to the argument.
- The misunderstanding that there has been any undue synthesising on my part may be my own fault, since I didn't include the full quote from the Lau&Cotran book (too lazy to type from Google Books):
First, it is now legally decided that the area between the Green Line and the Mandatory eastern border of Palestine is "occupied" and Israel remains a belligerent occupant. [...][The Court] defined where the territories occupied by Israel are. Second, the widely-circulated argument that [UNSC 242] does not call for withdrawal of all Israeli forces from all the occupied territories should now be put to rest.
- So, as you see, the only claim that remains to be sourced is that "Judea + Samaria" = the West Bank. I believe most editors would consider such a demand blatant wikilawyering MeteorMaker (talk) 23:14, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
- What is this supposed 'claim to the West Bank' that Israel has, and which the UN does not recognize? Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
- The kind that makes them set up administrative districts? MeteorMaker (talk) 00:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- So Israel's claim is that it can administer the West bank? And this is something that the UN does not support? The UN says Israel does not administer this territory? That's a pretty novel claim. Where can I read about it in a reliable source? Canadian Monkey (talk) 00:29, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Setting up a military administration appears to be a bit out of line with the 242's demands of "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict" and "Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force". Yes, you are going to respond with demands that I dig up a source that explicitly says so, but I've already shown what needs to be shown — that the UN wants the IDF and with it, their occupation administration out of the West Bank. MeteorMaker (talk) 01:25, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Please review WP:SYNTH: "Synthesis occurs when an editor puts together multiple sources to reach a novel conclusion that is not in any of the sources. Even if published by reliable sources, material must not be connected together in such a way that it constitutes original research. If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited are not directly related to the article subject, then the editor is engaged in original research... Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to come to the conclusion C. This would be a synthesis of published material which advances a new position, which constitutes original research." Jayjg (talk) 02:15, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Setting up a military administration appears to be a bit out of line with the 242's demands of "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict" and "Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force". Yes, you are going to respond with demands that I dig up a source that explicitly says so, but I've already shown what needs to be shown — that the UN wants the IDF and with it, their occupation administration out of the West Bank. MeteorMaker (talk) 01:25, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- So Israel's claim is that it can administer the West bank? And this is something that the UN does not support? The UN says Israel does not administer this territory? That's a pretty novel claim. Where can I read about it in a reliable source? Canadian Monkey (talk) 00:29, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- The kind that makes them set up administrative districts? MeteorMaker (talk) 00:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- What is this supposed 'claim to the West Bank' that Israel has, and which the UN does not recognize? Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
- When a map (Image:We-map.png) with one narrative is virtually the same geographic area as another map (Image:WestBankGovernatesNonLabeled.png), with a different narrative, it seems quite obvious that stating so is both factual, NPOV, and something like what Wikipedia is to strive toward. That naturally assumes one can read a map, is sufficiently aware of history and of course, neutral enough to accept it. Take a look at Wikipedia:Gaming the system, Jay, hopefully in an effort to follow policy, rather than perfect it as a wiki-art. I shall await your WP:OR rebuttal. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 04:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Which one of these maps makes the claim that "the UN says Israel does not adminsiter this territory"? I looked and couldn't find any mention of the UN on them. Please help me find it, perhaps it is in very small print. Canadian Monkey (talk) 16:50, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Your strawmen are getting stranger and stranger, as does your demand for proof of the whole basis of this article. Your original request, a source for the statement "the UN has not recognized Israel's claim to the West Bank", was fulfilled with the link to UNSC 242 I posted several days ago. Your request then morphed into "prove that the UN was talking about J+S", which was done with the Lau&Cotran quote I gave you above. Then you asked for proof that the West Bank = J+S, which was demonstrated to you in the post before yours. Now you're asking for a map that makes the claim that "the UN says Israel does not adminsiter this territory". Amusing as it may be to you, I ask you to stop this pointless game now. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- You've explained that by 'Israel's claim to the West Bank' you mean its ability to administer the territory. Please point out where, exactly, does UNSCR 242 refer to recognizing Israel's administration of the West Bank, and the UN's lack of recognition of this. Please refer to specif clauses and/or line numbers in UNSCR 242, not to personal research as to what certain terms in 242 "really mean", or how they should be interpreted. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Either I expressed myself unclearly, or you have indulged in some personal research what I "really mean". Your original requests have already been fulfilled as per above. I see no point in defending a weird argument I never made in the first place. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- The argument you have made, through the editsyou are attempting to edit war into the article is that "the official Israeli name of the seventh District of Israel, [is] unrecognised by the UN". Please provide a source for that argument. Not original research, not any synthesis of other arguments, not personal commentary. Just provide a reliable source that makes that exact claim. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Apart from not spelling out "J+S = West Bank", what fault do you see with the ones already provided? Also, the claim was there already [12], all I did was to provide a source. Then you deleted the longstanding "for historical regions, see Judea and Samaria" and inserted your own unsupported WP:OR that the regions are "geographical" rather than historical. Unless you can provide a source for that claim, it must be deleted per WP:V, and your persistent edit warring is clearly disruptive. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:47, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- the claim you are being asked to support is that "the official Israeli name of the seventh District of Israel, [is] unrecognised by the UN". Please provide a source for that argument. Not original research, not any synthesis of other arguments, not personal commentary, not semantic games or other forms of sophistry. Just provide a reliable source that makes that exact claim, thanks. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:55, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- You may have missed the post above. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:58, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- the claim you are being asked to support is that "the official Israeli name of the seventh District of Israel, [is] unrecognised by the UN". Please provide a source for that argument. Not original research, not any synthesis of other arguments, not personal commentary, not semantic games or other forms of sophistry. Just provide a reliable source that makes that exact claim, thanks. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:55, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Apart from not spelling out "J+S = West Bank", what fault do you see with the ones already provided? Also, the claim was there already [12], all I did was to provide a source. Then you deleted the longstanding "for historical regions, see Judea and Samaria" and inserted your own unsupported WP:OR that the regions are "geographical" rather than historical. Unless you can provide a source for that claim, it must be deleted per WP:V, and your persistent edit warring is clearly disruptive. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:47, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- The argument you have made, through the editsyou are attempting to edit war into the article is that "the official Israeli name of the seventh District of Israel, [is] unrecognised by the UN". Please provide a source for that argument. Not original research, not any synthesis of other arguments, not personal commentary. Just provide a reliable source that makes that exact claim. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Either I expressed myself unclearly, or you have indulged in some personal research what I "really mean". Your original requests have already been fulfilled as per above. I see no point in defending a weird argument I never made in the first place. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- You've explained that by 'Israel's claim to the West Bank' you mean its ability to administer the territory. Please point out where, exactly, does UNSCR 242 refer to recognizing Israel's administration of the West Bank, and the UN's lack of recognition of this. Please refer to specif clauses and/or line numbers in UNSCR 242, not to personal research as to what certain terms in 242 "really mean", or how they should be interpreted. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Your strawmen are getting stranger and stranger, as does your demand for proof of the whole basis of this article. Your original request, a source for the statement "the UN has not recognized Israel's claim to the West Bank", was fulfilled with the link to UNSC 242 I posted several days ago. Your request then morphed into "prove that the UN was talking about J+S", which was done with the Lau&Cotran quote I gave you above. Then you asked for proof that the West Bank = J+S, which was demonstrated to you in the post before yours. Now you're asking for a map that makes the claim that "the UN says Israel does not adminsiter this territory". Amusing as it may be to you, I ask you to stop this pointless game now. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Which one of these maps makes the claim that "the UN says Israel does not adminsiter this territory"? I looked and couldn't find any mention of the UN on them. Please help me find it, perhaps it is in very small print. Canadian Monkey (talk) 16:50, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- When a map (Image:We-map.png) with one narrative is virtually the same geographic area as another map (Image:WestBankGovernatesNonLabeled.png), with a different narrative, it seems quite obvious that stating so is both factual, NPOV, and something like what Wikipedia is to strive toward. That naturally assumes one can read a map, is sufficiently aware of history and of course, neutral enough to accept it. Take a look at Wikipedia:Gaming the system, Jay, hopefully in an effort to follow policy, rather than perfect it as a wiki-art. I shall await your WP:OR rebuttal. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 04:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
(Outdent) No, I did not. I don't care who originally put that statement in - unsourced claims may be challenged and removed at any time,which is what I did, and then you re-inserted that claim. Now, Please provide a source for that argument. Not original research, not any synthesis of other arguments, not personal commentary, not semantic games or other forms of sophistry. Just provide a reliable source that makes that exact claim, thanks. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:00, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe you just ignored it then. I repeat the question: Apart from not spelling out "J+S = West Bank", what fault do you see with the ones already provided? MeteorMaker (talk) 20:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- No, I did not ignore it. I am not askingfor a source that says "J+S = West Bank", I am asking for a source for that states "the official Israeli name of the seventh District of Israel, [is] unrecognised by the UN". None of the argumentative sources you've stitched together in a violation of our policy against original research make that claim. Just provide a reliable source that makes that exact claim, thanks. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- UNSC 242 clearly demands a termination of all claims or states of belligerency and withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict. That is enough. For the willfully obtuse who still have "difficulties" comprehending which territories that might be, the Lau&Cotran quote above makes it clear that the ICJ has defined "territories occupied in the recent conflict" as the West Bank. I honestly don't understand how anybody can still claim it's unclear what the UN's position on Israel's occupation is. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:35, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, UNSC 242 clearly requires a termination of all claims or states of belligerency and withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict. It does not however, state anything like "the official Israeli name of the seventh District of Israel, [is] unrecognised by the UN", which is the claim you've made and sourced to UNSCR 242. Please provide a reliable source that makes that exact claim, thanks. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:39, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- I see what the misunderstanding is now. "Unrecognised by the UN" refers to "the 7th district of Israel", not the name "Judea & Samaria". The UN has not said anything specifically about the name (apart from not using it), only that Israel has no claim to the West Bank, which is what the sentence is intended to express. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:56, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Which reliable source supports the statement '"the 7th district of Israel is unrecognised by the UN"? Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:30, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- UNSC 242, that's why I put it in. Assuming we now have solved the problem of identifying J+S with the WB, it's pretty clear: Israel has no claim to the WB, and its army, including the military administration, has no business there. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:41, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- No, UNSCR 242 nowhere mentions 'the 7th district of Israel', nor any recognition of it by the UN, or lack thereof. Again, which reliable source supports the statement '"the 7th district of Israel is unrecognised by the UN"? Please provide a source for that statement. Not original research, not any synthesis of other arguments, not personal commentary, not semantic games or other forms of sophistry. Just provide a reliable source that makes that exact claim, thanks. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- "The 7th district of Israel" = the West Bank. UNSCR 242: "Terminate all claims, withdraw army from West Bank". I'm sorry, I can't express it any simpler. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:57, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- if you want to include a statement that says '"the 7th district of Israel is unrecognised by the UN', you will need to find source that says just that. I'm sorry, I can't express it any simpler. Have a read of WP:SYNTH. Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- UNSC 242 says just that, and you have been shown a reliable source that confirms it. In case you have just invented a new WP rule that says no sentence can go in an article unless that exact sequence of words has been said by a reliable source, you'd have to scrap 99.997% of the text on Wikipedia. Kindly stop your wikilawyering now and move on to something more productive. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- UNSC 242 says the resolution of the conflict should involve Israeli withdrawal from territories it captured, and the end of all claims of belligerency. Those items of fact are already in the article. UNSC 242 says nothing whatsoever about "The 7th district of Israel" , or about "Judea and Samria", or even about the West Bank. It most certainly does not say anything about recognizing Israel's administrative districts, or not recognizing them. Please stop this attempt at pushing a POV into the article based on your ideas about how we should interpret UNSC 242 - and please, please read WP:SYNTH, which you continue to violate. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:45, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Again, you have been shown a cite from a reliable source that explains that the territories in the 242 have been conclusively identified with the West Bank, by the ICJ. Have you seen it or have you missed it? Has Israel been admonished to leave that territory or not? MeteorMaker (talk) 00:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- And again, I am not looking for references that the ICJ has identified the West Bank with the "territories" named in 242 (notwithstanding the fact that the source you quoted does not do that at all - it just states the West bank is occupied). I am looking for a single source, not a synthesized argument, that "'the 7th district of Israel',is not recognized by the UN". Do you have such a source or not? Please do not repeat the nonsense about UNSC 242, as it is plainly obvious that UNSCR 242 does not mention "The 7th district of Israel" , or "Judea and Samria", or even the West Bank. It most certainly does not say anything about recognizing Israel's administrative districts, or not recognizing them. Please, please, please read WP:SYNTH - as your constant violations of it will eventually lead to your editing privileges being restricted. Canadian Monkey (talk) 00:11, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- I honestly don't understand how you can demand that the 242 should use terms like "The 7th district of Israel" or "Judea and Samaria" long before those terms were invented. In case you still haven't read the cite from the Lau&Cotran book I provided that makes clear just what territories the "territories occupied in the recent conflict" are, here's a new opportunity (but mind you, I'll only repost it one more time):
First, it is now legally decided that the area between the Green Line and the Mandatory eastern border of Palestine is "occupied" and Israel remains a belligerent occupant. [...][The ICJ] defined where the territories occupied by Israel are. Second, the widely-circulated argument that [UNSC 242] does not call for withdrawal of all Israeli forces from all the occupied territories should now be put to rest.
- Like, hopefully, your wikithreats and persistent WP:SYNTH-waving. MeteorMaker (talk) 00:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- Please review WP:SYNTH: "Synthesis occurs when an editor puts together multiple sources to reach a novel conclusion that is not in any of the sources. Even if published by reliable sources, material must not be connected together in such a way that it constitutes original research. If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited are not directly related to the article subject, then the editor is engaged in original research... Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to come to the conclusion C. This would be a synthesis of published material which advances a new position, which constitutes original research." The sources you have used don't mention Judea and Samaria, nor come to the conclusions you invent for them. Please take the WP:NOR policy seriously. Jayjg (talk) 01:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- Again: UNSC 242 is a sufficient source in itself. Additionally, for those who have difficulties understanding what territories "the territories captured by Israel in the recent conflict" might be, the Lau&Cotran quote is a sufficient source in itself. Either is a sufficient source in itself. Hope that cleared it up for you. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- Except that they don't discuss "Judea and Samaria". Don't invent claims for the UN that it hasn't made, much less POV-push them into the lede. Jayjg (talk) 13:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- Is it "POV-pushing" to say that "Judea and Samaria" = "the area between the Green Line and the Mandatory eastern border of Palestine" = "West Bank" now? What exact WP policy do you refer to this time? MeteorMaker (talk) 13:29, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- The edit you are inserting is not '"Judea and Samaria" = "the area between the Green Line and the Mandatory eastern border of Palestine" = "West Bank"' (which 242 is not a good source for, in any case, but is a moot point), but rather "the UN does not recognize Israel's administration of Judea and Samaria". Please provide a source for that claim, not for any other one. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:29, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- For the 20th (or so) time, the source is the 242. For the small subset of people who don't understand what territories "the territories captured by Israel in the recent conflict" might be, the Lau&Cotran quote is an additional source that states the same thing, only more explicitly. For the exceedingly small subset that still don't understand, I'm afraid I can't do much. Is your problem with the fact that the UN doesn't use Israel-specific terminology, or don't you honestly understand what the sources say? MeteorMaker (talk) 19:43, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- For the 20th (or so) time, 242 says nothing about "Israel's 7th district", or about "Judea and Samaria" , or about "west bank", and does not say anything at all about recognizing the Israeli administration of those territories, by whatever name. Please read WP:SYNTH. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- (<---Outdent)
- For the 20th (or so) time, 242 says nothing about "Israel's 7th district", or about "Judea and Samaria" , or about "west bank", and does not say anything at all about recognizing the Israeli administration of those territories, by whatever name. Please read WP:SYNTH. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- For the 20th (or so) time, the source is the 242. For the small subset of people who don't understand what territories "the territories captured by Israel in the recent conflict" might be, the Lau&Cotran quote is an additional source that states the same thing, only more explicitly. For the exceedingly small subset that still don't understand, I'm afraid I can't do much. Is your problem with the fact that the UN doesn't use Israel-specific terminology, or don't you honestly understand what the sources say? MeteorMaker (talk) 19:43, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- The edit you are inserting is not '"Judea and Samaria" = "the area between the Green Line and the Mandatory eastern border of Palestine" = "West Bank"' (which 242 is not a good source for, in any case, but is a moot point), but rather "the UN does not recognize Israel's administration of Judea and Samaria". Please provide a source for that claim, not for any other one. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:29, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- Is it "POV-pushing" to say that "Judea and Samaria" = "the area between the Green Line and the Mandatory eastern border of Palestine" = "West Bank" now? What exact WP policy do you refer to this time? MeteorMaker (talk) 13:29, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- Except that they don't discuss "Judea and Samaria". Don't invent claims for the UN that it hasn't made, much less POV-push them into the lede. Jayjg (talk) 13:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- Again: UNSC 242 is a sufficient source in itself. Additionally, for those who have difficulties understanding what territories "the territories captured by Israel in the recent conflict" might be, the Lau&Cotran quote is a sufficient source in itself. Either is a sufficient source in itself. Hope that cleared it up for you. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- Please review WP:SYNTH: "Synthesis occurs when an editor puts together multiple sources to reach a novel conclusion that is not in any of the sources. Even if published by reliable sources, material must not be connected together in such a way that it constitutes original research. If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited are not directly related to the article subject, then the editor is engaged in original research... Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to come to the conclusion C. This would be a synthesis of published material which advances a new position, which constitutes original research." The sources you have used don't mention Judea and Samaria, nor come to the conclusions you invent for them. Please take the WP:NOR policy seriously. Jayjg (talk) 01:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- And again, I am not looking for references that the ICJ has identified the West Bank with the "territories" named in 242 (notwithstanding the fact that the source you quoted does not do that at all - it just states the West bank is occupied). I am looking for a single source, not a synthesized argument, that "'the 7th district of Israel',is not recognized by the UN". Do you have such a source or not? Please do not repeat the nonsense about UNSC 242, as it is plainly obvious that UNSCR 242 does not mention "The 7th district of Israel" , or "Judea and Samria", or even the West Bank. It most certainly does not say anything about recognizing Israel's administrative districts, or not recognizing them. Please, please, please read WP:SYNTH - as your constant violations of it will eventually lead to your editing privileges being restricted. Canadian Monkey (talk) 00:11, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- Again, you have been shown a cite from a reliable source that explains that the territories in the 242 have been conclusively identified with the West Bank, by the ICJ. Have you seen it or have you missed it? Has Israel been admonished to leave that territory or not? MeteorMaker (talk) 00:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- UNSC 242 says the resolution of the conflict should involve Israeli withdrawal from territories it captured, and the end of all claims of belligerency. Those items of fact are already in the article. UNSC 242 says nothing whatsoever about "The 7th district of Israel" , or about "Judea and Samria", or even about the West Bank. It most certainly does not say anything about recognizing Israel's administrative districts, or not recognizing them. Please stop this attempt at pushing a POV into the article based on your ideas about how we should interpret UNSC 242 - and please, please read WP:SYNTH, which you continue to violate. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:45, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- UNSC 242 says just that, and you have been shown a reliable source that confirms it. In case you have just invented a new WP rule that says no sentence can go in an article unless that exact sequence of words has been said by a reliable source, you'd have to scrap 99.997% of the text on Wikipedia. Kindly stop your wikilawyering now and move on to something more productive. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- if you want to include a statement that says '"the 7th district of Israel is unrecognised by the UN', you will need to find source that says just that. I'm sorry, I can't express it any simpler. Have a read of WP:SYNTH. Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- "The 7th district of Israel" = the West Bank. UNSCR 242: "Terminate all claims, withdraw army from West Bank". I'm sorry, I can't express it any simpler. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:57, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- No, UNSCR 242 nowhere mentions 'the 7th district of Israel', nor any recognition of it by the UN, or lack thereof. Again, which reliable source supports the statement '"the 7th district of Israel is unrecognised by the UN"? Please provide a source for that statement. Not original research, not any synthesis of other arguments, not personal commentary, not semantic games or other forms of sophistry. Just provide a reliable source that makes that exact claim, thanks. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- UNSC 242, that's why I put it in. Assuming we now have solved the problem of identifying J+S with the WB, it's pretty clear: Israel has no claim to the WB, and its army, including the military administration, has no business there. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:41, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Which reliable source supports the statement '"the 7th district of Israel is unrecognised by the UN"? Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:30, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- I see what the misunderstanding is now. "Unrecognised by the UN" refers to "the 7th district of Israel", not the name "Judea & Samaria". The UN has not said anything specifically about the name (apart from not using it), only that Israel has no claim to the West Bank, which is what the sentence is intended to express. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:56, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, UNSC 242 clearly requires a termination of all claims or states of belligerency and withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict. It does not however, state anything like "the official Israeli name of the seventh District of Israel, [is] unrecognised by the UN", which is the claim you've made and sourced to UNSCR 242. Please provide a reliable source that makes that exact claim, thanks. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:39, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- UNSC 242 clearly demands a termination of all claims or states of belligerency and withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict. That is enough. For the willfully obtuse who still have "difficulties" comprehending which territories that might be, the Lau&Cotran quote above makes it clear that the ICJ has defined "territories occupied in the recent conflict" as the West Bank. I honestly don't understand how anybody can still claim it's unclear what the UN's position on Israel's occupation is. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:35, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- No, I did not ignore it. I am not askingfor a source that says "J+S = West Bank", I am asking for a source for that states "the official Israeli name of the seventh District of Israel, [is] unrecognised by the UN". None of the argumentative sources you've stitched together in a violation of our policy against original research make that claim. Just provide a reliable source that makes that exact claim, thanks. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Arbitrary section break 1
Yes, I've heard that probably 20 times. Maybe I can help you better if you answer this question: Would you still have a problem with making sense of the 242 if it said "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from Judea and Samaria"? MeteorMaker (talk) 22:28, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- If what you wanted to say instead of 'The UN does not recognize Israel's administration of Judea and Samaria" was "The United Nations has declared that Israel must withdraw from territories captured in the conflict", and base that on a reference to 242, I would certainly not have a problem with that. I'd point out that this text already appears in the article, though, so I'm not sure why we'd want to repeat that. Canadian Monkey (talk) 00:01, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
- The extraordinarily shaky legal status of this administrative district is probably the most important fact in this article, so it definitely belongs in the lead. I will rewrite it according to your suggestions. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
- there is nothing "shaky" about the legal status of this district - it is governed by a military authority, as occupied territory. You seem to be under the impression that every military occupation is, by definition, illegal - but that is simply not so. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:32, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's an unwarranted conclusion. Israel's occupation of the WB is illegal per UN and ICJ and has not been recognized by any country. That is a fact. Your legal gyrations to make it seem like it isn't so (by demanding that the documents say "Judea and Samaria" and similar exercises in sophistry) are not particularly convincing. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:46, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
- Please point out the relevant UN resolutions or ICJ rulings which claim the occupation is illegal. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
- Not "illegal" in the strict juridical sense (except East Jerusalem), but "in breach of UN resolutions" — as illegal as Saddam's WMD, and for more than 40 years now. The UN has stated pretty clearly that Israel's armed forces have no business there, and having the IDF even set up a 7th Israel district there is against both the letter and the intent of the 242.
- Your new 242 wording is fine with me, although maybe a little longish. Now, please restore the "historical" in the header that you replaced with "geographical" for unstated reasons. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:15, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
- Which reliable source claims that the IDF administration of the West Bank is against both the letter and the intent of the 242? Canadian Monkey (talk) 01:30, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
- The IDF is, by definition, the Israeli army. UNSCR 242 demands the withdrawal of Israel armed forces from what you have now conceded [13] to be the West Bank. Ergo, the presence of the IDF in any form is in breach of UNSCR 242. MeteorMaker (talk) 12:56, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
- I understand this is what you think, but I am not interested in more of your personal theories and original research. I am asking which reliable source claims that the IDF administration of the West Bank is against both the letter and the intent of the 242? Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
- Again, it's all in UNSCR 242. Since we're now on common ground regarding the extent of the territories that it says Israel must withdraw its forces from (the West Bank), I don't see why you need an additional reliable source besides UNSCR 242 that says "UNSCR 242 says that the IDF must withdraw from the West Bank". Maybe this time it's because the 242 doesn't mention the IDF explicitly, only the Israeli army? MeteorMaker (talk) 18:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
- UNSCR 242 obvioulsy does not say that the IDF is violating it. If you make that claim, you need to support it with reliable sources. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
- Is this the point where I'm supposed to break down and laugh maniacally? MeteorMaker (talk) 19:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
- If that's all you're capable of, yes. Alternatively, you could try to actually find a reliable source that supports your claims. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
- Seeing that you regard reliable sources as mandatory even for the most obvious statement: would you happen to have one on hand for this? MeteorMaker (talk) 20:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- If you're asking for a reference that Judea and or/Samaria is a geographic region, a reference would be the geographical map, by the CIA, which I've presented to you several times. Canadian Monkey (talk) 00:10, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Every time you bring up that CIA map, it has been pointed out that it's simply a map with the place names the locals use, and that the word "Samaria" is nowhere to be found in the entire body of online CIA document (except once, in a cross-reference list of little-used foreign toponyms). If you want to introduce country-specific terminology on Wikipedia, you have to have better evidence of widespread acceptance than that. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- It's a geographical map, and it labels the area "Samaria". End of story. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- It also labels eg. Nablus with the local names, Nabulus and Shekhem. It's clearly a map of local place names. Neither the CIA nor any other (non-Israeli) government uses the term "Samaria", a fact that has been pointed out to you numerous times and which renders your interpretation of the map a violation of WP:FRINGE. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:52, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- it does not label "Samaria" with a local name - which would be "Shomron" or "as-Samarah". It uses the non-local, English toponym "Samaria", which is all the references we need for the claim that Samaria is a geographic region. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- <----Outdent>
- it does not label "Samaria" with a local name - which would be "Shomron" or "as-Samarah". It uses the non-local, English toponym "Samaria", which is all the references we need for the claim that Samaria is a geographic region. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- It also labels eg. Nablus with the local names, Nabulus and Shekhem. It's clearly a map of local place names. Neither the CIA nor any other (non-Israeli) government uses the term "Samaria", a fact that has been pointed out to you numerous times and which renders your interpretation of the map a violation of WP:FRINGE. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:52, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- It's a geographical map, and it labels the area "Samaria". End of story. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- Every time you bring up that CIA map, it has been pointed out that it's simply a map with the place names the locals use, and that the word "Samaria" is nowhere to be found in the entire body of online CIA document (except once, in a cross-reference list of little-used foreign toponyms). If you want to introduce country-specific terminology on Wikipedia, you have to have better evidence of widespread acceptance than that. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- If you're asking for a reference that Judea and or/Samaria is a geographic region, a reference would be the geographical map, by the CIA, which I've presented to you several times. Canadian Monkey (talk) 00:10, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Seeing that you regard reliable sources as mandatory even for the most obvious statement: would you happen to have one on hand for this? MeteorMaker (talk) 20:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- If that's all you're capable of, yes. Alternatively, you could try to actually find a reliable source that supports your claims. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
- Is this the point where I'm supposed to break down and laugh maniacally? MeteorMaker (talk) 19:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
- UNSCR 242 obvioulsy does not say that the IDF is violating it. If you make that claim, you need to support it with reliable sources. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
- Again, it's all in UNSCR 242. Since we're now on common ground regarding the extent of the territories that it says Israel must withdraw its forces from (the West Bank), I don't see why you need an additional reliable source besides UNSCR 242 that says "UNSCR 242 says that the IDF must withdraw from the West Bank". Maybe this time it's because the 242 doesn't mention the IDF explicitly, only the Israeli army? MeteorMaker (talk) 18:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
- I understand this is what you think, but I am not interested in more of your personal theories and original research. I am asking which reliable source claims that the IDF administration of the West Bank is against both the letter and the intent of the 242? Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
- The IDF is, by definition, the Israeli army. UNSCR 242 demands the withdrawal of Israel armed forces from what you have now conceded [13] to be the West Bank. Ergo, the presence of the IDF in any form is in breach of UNSCR 242. MeteorMaker (talk) 12:56, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
- Which reliable source claims that the IDF administration of the West Bank is against both the letter and the intent of the 242? Canadian Monkey (talk) 01:30, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
- Please point out the relevant UN resolutions or ICJ rulings which claim the occupation is illegal. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's an unwarranted conclusion. Israel's occupation of the WB is illegal per UN and ICJ and has not been recognized by any country. That is a fact. Your legal gyrations to make it seem like it isn't so (by demanding that the documents say "Judea and Samaria" and similar exercises in sophistry) are not particularly convincing. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:46, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
- there is nothing "shaky" about the legal status of this district - it is governed by a military authority, as occupied territory. You seem to be under the impression that every military occupation is, by definition, illegal - but that is simply not so. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:32, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
- The extraordinarily shaky legal status of this administrative district is probably the most important fact in this article, so it definitely belongs in the lead. I will rewrite it according to your suggestions. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
The names the locals are likely to use when speaking English, obviously. One (deliberately misinterpreted) map is also far from being "all the references we need" for widespread usage of a toponym. Please review Wikipedia guidelines for place names. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
- The locals speak Hebrew and Arabic. When speaking in foreign languages they use the terminology of those foreign languages. Jayjg (talk) 01:27, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's my point exactly. Israelis use the term "Samaria" rather than "Shomron" when speaking English, for instance with CIA operatives. From that doesn't follow that those same operatives, or anybody within the CIA, or for that matter anybody within any US gov't org uses the term. If that were, the case, we should be able to find examples of it. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:50, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- We have an example of it - the very map we are discussing. Your amusing contortions ("Oh, it says "Samaria" because that what the locals would call it if they were speaking to CIA operatives") are original research which is nowhere to be found on the map itself. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:30, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- On the contrary — under WP:NCGN you are required to show that a geographical term enjoys widespread acceptance in English before you present it as a valid toponym. One single map wouldn't suffice even if you had one whose function and purpose you didn't have to creatively misconstrue to suit your agenda. Also, drawing unfounded conclusions from single examples is against both WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:41, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- You're the one who came up with the imaginative "it says "Samaria" because that what the locals would call it if they were speaking to CIA operatives" and I'm the one "creatively misconstrue[ing]" things? Please, be serious. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- I've informed you that the CIA map is what is known as a bilingual map, with the local Arabic and Israeli names on it. You believe it's proof of some kind of conspiracy to suppress the real name of the area and that the CIA secretly endorses the term "Samaria", while outwards maintaining a clever façade of sticking unfailingly to "West Bank", which conveniently explains why there isn't one proper occurrence of "Samaria" in the entire online CIA archive. I think it's pretty obvious who's the one with the vivid imagination here.
- And again, even if your interpretation of the purpose of the map were perfectly accurate and not a total fabrication, you'd only have one isolated anecdotal example. WP:NCGN requires you to show that a term enjoys widespread acceptance in English. Do you have a reliable source that "Samaria" does? MeteorMaker (talk) 21:51, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- You've certainly asserted, several times, that this a bilingual map, with the local Arabic and Israeli names on it, only to have me and Jayjg point out to you that "Samaria" is neither a local Arabic name nor an Israeli name, and that "Samaria" appears on the map alone, not accompanied by any local name. Instead of imagining what I believe is the purpose of the map, please refocus on the matter at hand - you asked for a reference that "Samaria" is a geographical region, and I gave you one - a geographical map with the area labeled "Samaria". Let's move on. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- The place names aren't in Arabic or Hebrew letters either, so it's clearly intended for English speakers who need to familiarize themselves with what the places are called locally. What's your point, that the CIA released a secret map by mistake? What do you make of the fact that only one CIA online document (a cross-ref list of little-used place names) contains the name "Samaria", while the West Bank occurs 720 times [[14]]? Could your interpretation perhaps be a little inconsistent with reality?
- And again, even if your interpretation of the map were correct, one instance of a term hardly constitutes evidence of widespread acceptance, something you need in order to present a toponym as valid on Wikipedia. It's as if a hypothetical map with "Zionist Entity" on it would legitimize that as a proper NPOV alternative to Israel. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:31, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- again, if the intent was to familiarize English speakers with what the places are called locally, it would have been transliterated, as "Shomron" or "As-Samarah". My point is that if you are looking for a reference that Samaria is a geographical region, I've given you one. Move on. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:06, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, you will have to comply with WP:NCGN for geographical terms. One (creatively misinterpreted) map won't do. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:16, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- You're the one who came up with the imaginative "it says "Samaria" because that what the locals would call it if they were speaking to CIA operatives" as well as the alternative "it's clearly intended for English speakers who need to familiarize themselves with what the places are called locally and I'm the one "creatively misinterpret[ing]" things? Please, be serious. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- SInce you keep ignoring the important part, let's pretend I've never refuted your interpretation of the purpose of the map. Now, how many isolated examples would you say it takes to satisfy WP's requirements for presenting a toponym as valid? MeteorMaker (talk) 09:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- The important part, as far as I can tell, was your request (which started this exchange) for a reliable source for the claim the "Samaria" is a geographical region. One reference is enough for that claim - and I've given it to you. Time to move on. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- If one single map were enough, we'd have to accept "Occupied Palestine" as a synonym for Israel as well [15]. One instance of a toponym on a map (even if your interpretation of it had been correct) is clearly not evidence of widespread acceptance. Please review WP:OR, WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV and WP:NCGN. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm a little surprised that I have to actaully explain this to you, but The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a proven antisemitic hoax, is not a reliable source on wikipedia. Seriously, this game playing has gone on long enough. Further attempts to disrupt the project along [this line will be taken to the appropriate administrators' forum. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:24, 3 December 2008
- If one single map were enough, we'd have to accept "Occupied Palestine" as a synonym for Israel as well [15]. One instance of a toponym on a map (even if your interpretation of it had been correct) is clearly not evidence of widespread acceptance. Please review WP:OR, WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV and WP:NCGN. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- The important part, as far as I can tell, was your request (which started this exchange) for a reliable source for the claim the "Samaria" is a geographical region. One reference is enough for that claim - and I've given it to you. Time to move on. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- SInce you keep ignoring the important part, let's pretend I've never refuted your interpretation of the purpose of the map. Now, how many isolated examples would you say it takes to satisfy WP's requirements for presenting a toponym as valid? MeteorMaker (talk) 09:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- You're the one who came up with the imaginative "it says "Samaria" because that what the locals would call it if they were speaking to CIA operatives" as well as the alternative "it's clearly intended for English speakers who need to familiarize themselves with what the places are called locally and I'm the one "creatively misinterpret[ing]" things? Please, be serious. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, you will have to comply with WP:NCGN for geographical terms. One (creatively misinterpreted) map won't do. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:16, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- again, if the intent was to familiarize English speakers with what the places are called locally, it would have been transliterated, as "Shomron" or "As-Samarah". My point is that if you are looking for a reference that Samaria is a geographical region, I've given you one. Move on. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:06, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- You've certainly asserted, several times, that this a bilingual map, with the local Arabic and Israeli names on it, only to have me and Jayjg point out to you that "Samaria" is neither a local Arabic name nor an Israeli name, and that "Samaria" appears on the map alone, not accompanied by any local name. Instead of imagining what I believe is the purpose of the map, please refocus on the matter at hand - you asked for a reference that "Samaria" is a geographical region, and I gave you one - a geographical map with the area labeled "Samaria". Let's move on. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- You're the one who came up with the imaginative "it says "Samaria" because that what the locals would call it if they were speaking to CIA operatives" and I'm the one "creatively misconstrue[ing]" things? Please, be serious. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- On the contrary — under WP:NCGN you are required to show that a geographical term enjoys widespread acceptance in English before you present it as a valid toponym. One single map wouldn't suffice even if you had one whose function and purpose you didn't have to creatively misconstrue to suit your agenda. Also, drawing unfounded conclusions from single examples is against both WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:41, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- We have an example of it - the very map we are discussing. Your amusing contortions ("Oh, it says "Samaria" because that what the locals would call it if they were speaking to CIA operatives") are original research which is nowhere to be found on the map itself. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:30, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- That's my point exactly. Israelis use the term "Samaria" rather than "Shomron" when speaking English, for instance with CIA operatives. From that doesn't follow that those same operatives, or anybody within the CIA, or for that matter anybody within any US gov't org uses the term. If that were, the case, we should be able to find examples of it. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:50, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
![[15]](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/images/greater-israel-map1.gif){kind=link}
(UTC)
- (<---Outdent)
(Outdent) Just showing you where your "one map is enough, to hell with the context" technique would lead if it were allowed on Wikipedia. You are in fact required to evaluate the context, not just blindly embrace anything with a superficial similarity to proof. MeteorMaker (talk) 18:56, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- You have attempted to equate a CIA map, from a reliable source, with a known antisemitic hoax. Please read Wikipedia:Disruptive editing and Wikipedia:Point, specifically, this section. Further disruption will be dealt with appropriately. Canadian Monkey (talk)
- Wrong, I have demonstrated the potential consequences of further spreading of your lax source checking: "If something exists as a label on one map, any map, it's WP material, regardless of the purpose of the map itself". The CIA map is not what you purport it to be, or else the CIA would use the term "Samaria" on their web site [16] at least as many times as "West Bank" (turns out the actual numbers are 1 to 720). And I repeat, you need to show proof of widespread acceptance if you want to present a toponym as extant on Wikipedia. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- Quoting to you from the section I referred you to: 'Mischaracterizing other editors' actions to make them seem unreasonable or improper'. Other editors have previously warned you about this. Don't do it again. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- I apologize if I have mischaracterized your actions (and I will accept your apology as well for claiming that I "have attempted to equate a CIA map [...] with a known antisemitic hoax.") Still, you haven't yet commented on my repeated request to abide by WP:NCGN. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- I am following WP:NCGN, which states 'The same name as in the title should be used consistently throughout the article'. the title of this article is 'Judea and Samaria' - and that's the name I'm using consistently throughout the article. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- That's not what the dispute is about, it's about your promotion of Samaria and Judea to "geographical" rather than "historical" terms [17]. WP:NCGN requires you to show that a toponym enjoys widespread acceptance in order to use on WP, and I haven't seen a shred of evidence for that position. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see how WP:NCGN is relevant to this dispute Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:36, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia: Naming conventions (geographic names) apply to geographic names. You changed the text to "For the geographic regions of Judea and Samaria see Judea or Samaria"[18], where it before said "historical". MeteorMaker (talk) 13:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- Allow me to quote the lead of WP:NCGN, as it appears you have skipped over it: "our naming policy provides that article names should be chosen for the general reader, not for specialists. By following English usage, we also avoid arguments about what a place ought to be called, instead asking the less contentious question, what it is called." This article is named Judea and Samaria, because that is what the district is called. Other articles are also appropriately named, ad the text there makes clear the names are not only historical. I don't see how WP:NCGN is relevant to this dispute Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:29, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia: Naming conventions (geographic names) apply to geographic names. You changed the text to "For the geographic regions of Judea and Samaria see Judea or Samaria"[18], where it before said "historical". MeteorMaker (talk) 13:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see how WP:NCGN is relevant to this dispute Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:36, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- That's not what the dispute is about, it's about your promotion of Samaria and Judea to "geographical" rather than "historical" terms [17]. WP:NCGN requires you to show that a toponym enjoys widespread acceptance in order to use on WP, and I haven't seen a shred of evidence for that position. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- I am following WP:NCGN, which states 'The same name as in the title should be used consistently throughout the article'. the title of this article is 'Judea and Samaria' - and that's the name I'm using consistently throughout the article. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- I apologize if I have mischaracterized your actions (and I will accept your apology as well for claiming that I "have attempted to equate a CIA map [...] with a known antisemitic hoax.") Still, you haven't yet commented on my repeated request to abide by WP:NCGN. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- Quoting to you from the section I referred you to: 'Mischaracterizing other editors' actions to make them seem unreasonable or improper'. Other editors have previously warned you about this. Don't do it again. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- Wrong, I have demonstrated the potential consequences of further spreading of your lax source checking: "If something exists as a label on one map, any map, it's WP material, regardless of the purpose of the map itself". The CIA map is not what you purport it to be, or else the CIA would use the term "Samaria" on their web site [16] at least as many times as "West Bank" (turns out the actual numbers are 1 to 720). And I repeat, you need to show proof of widespread acceptance if you want to present a toponym as extant on Wikipedia. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
One week later: No new evidence has surfaced that would support the position that "Samaria" is a current term anywhere else than in Israel. Since attempts to insert it in WP articles thus violate WP:NCGN, [[WP:UNDUE], and [[WP:NPOV], [19], Canadian Monkey's edit that changed the reference to the articles on Judea and Samaria to "geographical" areas rather than historical will have to be reverted. MeteorMaker (talk) 15:31, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
- One week later, asserting what you have failed to establish and declaring victory is not the way Wikipedia works. Dozens of sources establish use of the term outside of Israel. Please edit according to policy. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:25, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
- Even if they were a dozen (scroll down for the refutals that decimate the list quite a lot), that wouldn't really constitute wide usage in the WP sense. Note that several of the sources do comment on usage, and all that do unanimously agree that the term is confined to Israel. Even your best evidence turns out to be better support for the opposite view, which I find telling. Please give up now and revert back. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:41, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- what you call "refutals" is referred to on wikipedia as self-serving original research. More than 3 dozen sources establish use of the term outside of Israel. Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:46, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- If you take off the proverbial blinders and actually read the "self-serving original research", you will find proof that most of those sources are, in order of prevalence, 1) Israelis/members of Zionist orgs, 2) references to the old British Mandate region name, or even older incarnations of the area, 3) misrepresentations of neutral sources like Newsweek and Ian Lustick. Only a couple remains, and anecdotal evidence is not enough for Wikipedia. Now, if you could find a source that actually says the term is in wide use outside of Israel... MeteorMaker (talk) 23:06, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia does not disqualify sources because they are Zionist. You have been presented with 40+ sources outside of Israel that use the term, so it is wrong to claim that it is used exclusively in Israel. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia does disqualify partisan views and partisan terminology. And as you've already been informed numerous times, the list of "sources outside of Israel that use the term" you keep referring to has been conclusively shown to contsist mostly of quotes by Israelis. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:54, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Guys, this is starting to get into WP:LAME territory. Instead of going back and forth like this, how about filing an RfC, and trying to get some comments from other editors? --Elonka 02:58, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
- It would also require a re-statement of the basic issue to avoid the copious indentations. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 05:16, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
- Guys, this is starting to get into WP:LAME territory. Instead of going back and forth like this, how about filing an RfC, and trying to get some comments from other editors? --Elonka 02:58, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia does disqualify partisan views and partisan terminology. And as you've already been informed numerous times, the list of "sources outside of Israel that use the term" you keep referring to has been conclusively shown to contsist mostly of quotes by Israelis. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:54, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia does not disqualify sources because they are Zionist. You have been presented with 40+ sources outside of Israel that use the term, so it is wrong to claim that it is used exclusively in Israel. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- If you take off the proverbial blinders and actually read the "self-serving original research", you will find proof that most of those sources are, in order of prevalence, 1) Israelis/members of Zionist orgs, 2) references to the old British Mandate region name, or even older incarnations of the area, 3) misrepresentations of neutral sources like Newsweek and Ian Lustick. Only a couple remains, and anecdotal evidence is not enough for Wikipedia. Now, if you could find a source that actually says the term is in wide use outside of Israel... MeteorMaker (talk) 23:06, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- what you call "refutals" is referred to on wikipedia as self-serving original research. More than 3 dozen sources establish use of the term outside of Israel. Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:46, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Even if they were a dozen (scroll down for the refutals that decimate the list quite a lot), that wouldn't really constitute wide usage in the WP sense. Note that several of the sources do comment on usage, and all that do unanimously agree that the term is confined to Israel. Even your best evidence turns out to be better support for the opposite view, which I find telling. Please give up now and revert back. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:41, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
One small question - how come nobody here points out the issue with UNSC 242 about "from territories" rather than "from the territories"? When confronted about this, the British ambassador to the UN who had originated this declaration stated that Britain did not expect Israel to withdraw to the armistice line, but rather to reach an agreement concerning its final borders. Especially considering the fact that most of the territory occupied by Israel following the six day war was the Sinai (recognized internationally as part of Egypt) and the Golan Heights (recognized internationally as part of Syria), the standing of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip would be less than clear and subject to negotiation. Obviously, many of you do not like this, but these are the facts on the ground. This embodies the meaning of controversy - one side says one thing and the other side says another. Denying the claims of one side in favor of another when there is no incontrovertible evidence is to utilize Wikipedia as a political tool. International parties discussing the conflict speak of borders BASED on the 1949 armistice line rather than IDENTICAL to the 1949 armistice line for a reason. 132.229.189.116 (talk) 11:12, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
References
- ^ UN Security Council resolution 242 [1]
- ^ "Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory" (PDF). International Court of Justice. 2004. Retrieved 2008-11-11.
[...] the Court notes that the territories situated between the Green Line and the former eastern boundary of Palestine under the Mandate were occupied by Israel in 1967 during the armed conflict between Israel and Jordan. Under customary international law, the Court observes, these were therefore occupied territories in which Israel had the status of occupying Power.
- ^ Lau, Cotran (2005). "Yearbook of Islamic And Middle Eastern Law". BRILL. ISBN 9004144447. Retrieved 2008-11-11.
First, it is now legally decided that the area between the Green Line and the Mandatory eastern border of Palestine is "occupied" and Israel remains a belligerent occupant. [...][The Court] defined where the territories occupied by Israel are.
Hi. I have some questions regarding these terms: 1) West Bank 2) Judea 3) Samaria 4) Judea and Samaria Area .
Regarding their geographical areas,
a) What's the difference between 2&3 combined, and 4?
b) What's the difference between 2&3 combined, and 1?
c) What's the difference between 1 and 4?
Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:41, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- (a) 2&3 can refer to pre-1948 historical areas which bear little relationship to the 1948 Green line. They can also be used by supporters of a Greater Israel to refer to the Northern and Southern West Bank.
- (b) similar answer to a.
- (c) 1 is larger. Part of the West Bank has been annexed into Jerusalem and is administered as part of Jerusalem District not the Judea and Samaria Area. Also beware that 4 is not a purely geographical term but an administrative one. 4 can be used to refer solely to those parts of the remaining West Bank that have Israeli settlements and are administered with them, as opposed to those that are run by the Palestinian Authority. --Peter cohen (talk) 09:40, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Thew change anon just made to the population reflects the population of settlements only. Is that what we want here Should we qualify it in the article? I think it is clear that "J&S area" excludes Greater Jerusalem. Zerotalk 12:10, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- If I understand things correct then I agree. The number should be the Israeli population in what they call the J&SA which I take to be the settlements outside GJ.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:55, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Area in infobox
In light of the clarifications above about population in the settlements only, and J & S A being not a purely geographical term: Isn't it inappropriate to state in the infobox that the area is 5878 sq km? As the infobox is now, it states that there is an area which is 5878 sq km large, which has a population of 304 569. Surely, neither Israelis, Palestinians or any others would claim that this is the case--Barend (talk) 15:21, 2 September 2010 (UTC)?
- I'm not sure I understand you. Please expand on your thoughts, you had a good eye to notice that. I think that Judea and Samaria 'Area' includes the entire area claimed, not only the Israeli populated places. Israel has legal and military jurisdiction over the entire area. The infobox should be updated to specify the 300k number refers to Israeli citizens, and the number of Arabs should also be included in the same field, hopefully from an RS. --Shuki (talk) 23:38, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- User Peter Cohen stated, in the above, that "[Judea and Samaria area] can be used to refer solely to those parts of the remaining West Bank that have Israeli settlements and are administered with them, as opposed to those that are run by the Palestinian Authority". This area is not 5878 sq km, as that is, apparently, the area of the whole West Bank. It has also been stated on this discussion page, that the existence of this article is not a "POV fork" from West Bank, because it covers a different topic than the geographical area covered by the article "West Bank". So if that is the case, either the infobox should state the area of the Israeli settlements and their population, or not state an area at all - or so it seems to me. I hope this was clearer. The whole topic is, of course, somewhat complicated.--Barend (talk) 09:51, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- I respect Peter Cohen, but don't know why you are quoting him as if to quote policy. J&S Area certainly does not mean only settlements land, and not even all of Area C land, but to encompass the entire area. This is not my opinion, it is fact. Currently Israel has sovreignty over the whole area. The article is definitely somewhat of a POV fork. The 'West Bank' article in current state is POV enough and mainly a place holder for Palestinian State, the main map includes Palestinian areas, not Israeli ones. A WP ceasefire made current status that J&S Area means the Israeli government administrative region and not a geographical area which pro-Arabs claim Judea and Samaria is an Israeli term only. J&S is 'allowed' to be refered to in the biblical sense, and also in off-hand mentions like Samarian/Judean Hills. --Shuki (talk) 14:09, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Fair enough, I got the impression that Cohen represented consensus. If this is infact a POV fork, than obviously it shouldn't exist, but I won't try to stir up that debate again. But if the article refers to the same geographical area as the West Bank, and not just the Israeli administrative structure and settlements in the occupied territories, than the population number here is wrong, as you say above. Because clearly, the area does not have 300 000 inhabitants, the number is a lot higher.--Barend (talk) 16:33, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Barend has a solid point, the article doesn't really keep in line with only covering the militarily administered/Israeli controlled areas of the West Bank and starts to look a lot like a POV fork. If the justification is that the article is on the administrative area (per the archives) then it doesn't make sense to include the areas not administered by the IDF in the land area info. I know it's a venerable hornets nest of controversy but it's a little confusing as it is. Sol Goldstone (talk) 15:18, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- The article is obviously a POV fork. It's the term the Israeli government and Israeli right use for the West Bank (not including East Jerusalem). That's all. I see no reason to have a separate article about it. john k (talk) 17:19, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- Ignoring JohnK's emotional comment...Sol, this article should be expanded instead and/or the WB article made less POV. Jurisdiction and administration are not the same and not mutually exclusive. Just because Israel has allowed self-administration with the PNA in certain areas does not mean it has relinquished anything yet/permanently. FWIW, many still claim that Israel occupies these areas including Gaza as well. and again, FWIW, this is an official term of the Israeli goverment, that in itself is notable enough for record. --Shuki (talk) 18:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- What was emotional about my comment? john k (talk) 18:56, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- Cuz you merely stated your dead-end vote/opinion without adding anything and we are having a decent discussion trying to get somewhere. Anyway, I did sort of answer you anyway that I agree with you and the government uses this term. --Shuki (talk) 19:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- Oh I'm not questioning if it's notable, it certainly is, but the land area seems off. If it's really just a reference to the administrative area then it seems weird to include the land not under Israeli control but omit the people living there. I'll at least try to find some government source that defines the J&S area as there doesn't seem to be one at the moment. Sol Goldstone (talk) 23:03, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- Cuz you merely stated your dead-end vote/opinion without adding anything and we are having a decent discussion trying to get somewhere. Anyway, I did sort of answer you anyway that I agree with you and the government uses this term. --Shuki (talk) 19:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- What was emotional about my comment? john k (talk) 18:56, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- Barend has a solid point, the article doesn't really keep in line with only covering the militarily administered/Israeli controlled areas of the West Bank and starts to look a lot like a POV fork. If the justification is that the article is on the administrative area (per the archives) then it doesn't make sense to include the areas not administered by the IDF in the land area info. I know it's a venerable hornets nest of controversy but it's a little confusing as it is. Sol Goldstone (talk) 15:18, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Compromise edit
From what I can gather, the opposition to following the sources in describing these as "Biblical terms" or "Biblical names" is that some Wikipedians understand this to mean "used only in Biblical times." This is certainly not what the sources mean when they explicitly say that Judea and Samaria are biblical names for the southern and northern West Bank, respectively. On the contrary, the scores of mainstream, contemporary, top-notch reliable sources that designate them as Biblical names do so explicitly in the context of the terms' contemporary use:
- CNN:"Israelis often refer to the northern West Bank region by its biblical name of Samaria."
- New York Times: "The operation began just before midnight, as the leaders of the regional council of Samaria, which takes the biblical name for the northern West Bank, gathered at a nearby army base."
- New York Times again: "In Samaria, the biblical name for the northern West Bank, and in Binyamin, the central district around the Palestinian city of Ramallah, settlers recently ousted their more mainstream representatives in local council elections, voting in what they called “activist” mayors instead."
- Washington Post: "Weiss has been one of Israel's most recognizable settler activists since 1975, when she moved from her home near Tel Aviv to a tent in the hills of Samaria, the biblical name for the northern West Bank."
- USA Today:"Physically, the mountainous settlements are harder for the army to close off. But ideologically, for settlers who only refer to this region by its biblical name, Samaria, this land is on an even higher ground."
In short, it is precisely in the context of the term's current use that the sources underscore that these are biblical names. Other, more in-depth and/or academic sources go further, and point out that the contemporary use of these terms is politicized and controversial, that they are used primarily by annexationists, and so on. But there is no need to add that sort of background information here.
By the same token, there is no argument for obscuring the key fact about these terms as they are used today: they are biblical names.
I am implementing a compromise edit, one that makes very clear that "biblical names" ≠ "used only in biblical times," that these biblical names are still used today:
For the geographical regions known by the biblical names Judea and Samaria, see Judea or Samaria.
This should clear up the confusion Jay, NoCal, and others have about what scores of top-notch sources mean when they say "biblical names," and ensure that readers do not suffer from similar confusion. If editors find the compromise edit unsatisfactory, please discuss your concerns in detail here, and please address my concerns in detail as well. If you want to go ahead and modify it, knock yourself out – just make sure that your version includes the fact that these are biblical names. That fact is relevant, undisputed, and sourced to the nines; and as long as it's phrased in such a way that the reader won't misunderstand it to be saying "used only in biblical times," there's no argument for removing it.--G-Dett (talk) 16:13, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
- That actually sounds very reasonable to me. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:48, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
- Ditto.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 00:09, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
- This works for me, as well. NoCal100 (talk) 02:21, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
- I'm touched, guys. Seriously. I could kiss y'all.--G-Dett (talk) 00:45, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- Me first!--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 04:56, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
- I'm touched, guys. Seriously. I could kiss y'all.--G-Dett (talk) 00:45, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- Neither NoCal nor I were "confused" by what the sources said; rather, we objected to your use of the sources to make inaccurate assertions. In the future, when proposing new wording, Comment on content, not on the contributor. Your current proposal more accurately reflects both reality and the sources, and seems reasonable. Jayjg (talk) 19:50, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
- My edits were always exactly and only and word-for-word what the sources said, so no kiss for you mister; but here's a tepid, half-assed high-five for not obstructing this marvelous-delicate thing we've got going.--G-Dett (talk) 22:19, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
> Judea and Samaria are found in the Hebrew Bible (and 'Jesus' was a Judean etc) but these names are in current daily use in Israel. So they are not 'biblical' in the sense that they are archaic. The implication is that they are no longer in common useage which is untrue. The 'West Bank' is a ridiculous alternative name for Judea and Samaria as the east bank of the Jordan river is only a few meters wide and so the west bank cannot extend for 20 or so miles! In any case all the land west of the Jordan river has been legally Jewish land since the signing of the San Remo Treaty and the British Mandate. The UNs resolutions pertaining to Judea and Samaria are in contravention of UN charter article 80. There are null and void. > —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.34.166 (talk) 16:54, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
why you dont talk about origin of name?
and say it is a biblical name , and have a link to the israel and juedea kingdom? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.180.110.40 (talk) 16:48, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
Occupied, Not Controlled
I screwed up my edit summary but the Israeli Supreme Court agrees that it's occupied territory.Sol (talk) 05:34, 21 November 2010 (UTC) And Hertz renders it a moot point. Nice work! Sol (talk) 06:41, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
from what country is it occupied from and when ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.180.110.40 (talk) 17:14, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
Multiple links to the same article
If an article is linked multiple times in an article, there is no justification for adding it to the "see also" list. My removal of a link was reverted by an editor. Apart from reading comprehension problems, I cannot see any reason for this action.--Geewhiz (talk) 09:04, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
- There is zero cost to the article of having the link in the see also section so it should remain as it is useful and pertinent to the reader. Dlv999 (talk) 09:33, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
- Per WP:ALSO: "As a general rule the "See also" section should not repeat links which appear in the article's body or its navigation boxes." Hertz1888 (talk) 09:43, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
- "reading comprehension problems"...charming...but you may have a point. My concern (other than the tiresome knee-jerk revert and vandalism label) was the removal of the Main| link to the subsection section of the West Bank article. Removing that makes no sense. That is the main article with the master copy of the information about the status. However, getting back to reading comprehension problems, the link should be to West_Bank#Legal_status rather than the non-existent West Bank#Status section. I don't have a preference for whether the link to Israeli-occupied territories stays in the see also section. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:54, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
- Per WP:ALSO: "As a general rule the "See also" section should not repeat links which appear in the article's body or its navigation boxes." Hertz1888 (talk) 09:43, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
East Jerusalem
East Jerusalem is considered part of the West Bank by the UNSC, the UNGA, the International Court of Justice, the EU, and numerous other international organisations. If we are going to mention that the "Judea and Samaria Area" corresponds to the West Bank, it important to clarify that it does not include EJ which according to majority world opinion is part of the West Bank. Dlv999 (talk) 15:27, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agree, because otherwise, it's like we are saying that E.J. administratively belongs to Judea and Samaria Administrative District, which is wrong. 3Princip (talk) 20:21, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed that it is wrong, but the size of the area as indicated in the infobox (5,878 km2) includes the part of the West Bank annexed to Jerusalem, if I'm understanding correctly what the CIA means, which states:
- “Area: total: 5,860 sq km
- land: 5,640 sq km
- water: 220 sq km
- note: includes West Bank, Latrun Salient, and the northwest quarter of the Dead Sea, but excludes Mt. Scopus; East Jerusalem and Jerusalem No Man's Land are also included only as a means of depicting the entire area occupied by Israel in 1967” [20]. Or am I mistaken? Ajnem (talk) 07:55, 4 June 2012 (UTC)