Talk:Jinn/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Reverting of WP:BOLD after closing of Dispute Resolution discussion

Dispute Resolution discussion closed "due to lack of response by one editor". i.e. VenusFeuerFalle. Volunteer moderator Robert McClenon ended with this:

Closed due to lack of response by one editor. The filing editor has stated that he wants to make three edits to the article. The other editor did not reply. The filing editor should make the edits boldly. If the edits are reverted, he may follow the advice in the discussion failure essay, and may note this proceeding, or they may submit a Request for Comments,which should be neutrally worded, and preferably in three parts. I am willing to provide assistance in submitting an RFC if requested. Do not edit-war. Report disruptive editing at WP:ANI after reading the boomerang essay. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:45, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

So I, the filing editor (Louis P. Boog), made the edits boldly here and ... VenusFeuerFalle, who couldn't be bothered to make a response to the Dispute resolution discussion, reverted the edits with the summary "this was not the resolution".

My questions for the deleter @VenusFeuerFalle:

1. "this was not the resolution"? how so? the resolution started with "The filing editor should make the edits boldly."
2. wikipedia help page gives a number of suggestions to avoid wholesale reverting, such as "Reverting is appropriate mostly for vandalism or other disruptive edits" (Wikipedia:Reverting#When_to_revert). How is following the advice of the Dispute resolution volunteer disruptive??? --Louis P. Boog (talk) 00:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

@Louis P. Boog and @TheEagle107 Pl. take note that WP:DRN is not a binding solution so win by absence of other side at WP:DRN is of very temporary nature. So advice all the sides not to engage in any further reverts.

The final step for you to go for WP:RfC (also follow WP:RFCBEFORE)

Or you can take pause in discussion here and request inputs at WP:NPOVN (this being primarily WP:DUE issue or at WT:ISLAM. And there after go for WP:RfC. (My personal recommendation is you take a chance at WP:NPOVN for more inputs before going for RfC for wider feedback.

Bookku (talk) 01:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I also suggest all to go through or re-read policies WP:DUE, WP:BALANCE, WP:RNPOV, WP:PROPORTION.

• • I suggest to check already available refs in the articles Abul A'la Maududi and Nasr Abu Zayd for RS and also check if their importance has been cited in any reliable journals and academic books available at google scholar and google books. Take input help of WP:RSN forum to confirm if any source can be considered RS or not.
  • I suggest read the article body again and write down your own lead in your own sand box and then compare if you find the present lead has a proper weight from reliable contents made in the rest of the body. Such an exercise may help you in RFC discussion and during good article and feature article nomination reviews.
  • I suggest @TheEagle107 to take their references at WP:RSN to have community inputs which of their references can be considered as reliable.

Last but least to all incl. @VenusFeuerFalle please confirm you are signing your comments properly so other visiting users do not get confused by mistake.

Bookku (talk) 01:54, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I do sign my comments, I just respond rarely, since I mostly response then there is new information. Until now, I am still waiting for my initiate objection (I this time even repeated) to be adressed. Until then, I will be waiting. I repeat it here again: Religions scholars, unlike scholars of religions, are not reliable sources, sources need to be understood in context, the lead is a sumamr yof the article. Whether or not jinn are a dogma, is no promiment element in the article and thus giving undue weight in the lead. I am still waiting for a proper response, instead I get revert after revert with the claim "but authentic source how dare you!". And no matter how often I talk to them on talkpages, they just ignore whatever I say, keep on quoting sources with no relevance, express indignation, and then go to an admin or disappear for a month. Last time, the source provided did not even supported their statement, similar thing happened with the other user last year on another article. For unexperienced users who do not want to engage in civil discussions, we have the Sandbox function. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 02:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Give them time to find academic sources at google scholar / google books approach WP:RSN, WP:NPOVN then WP:RFCBEFORE then WP:RFC many times inputs from different users help as I said earlier. Bookku (talk) 02:28, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I will probably not be online for a few days or a week. Maybe I have time for a quick check in. In case once again, my absense is taken as an agreement to edits my objections are left unanswered in the first place. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 02:15, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Fyi: As a discussion facilitator I placed an input request at WT:ISLAM with a note to provide inputs @ this article talk page itself. Bookku (talk) 02:23, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

As a discussion facilitator Input request also posted @ WP:NPOVN, WT:MYTH, WT:ARAB, WT:WikiProject Middle Ages, WT:WikiProject Religion project talk pages. Bookku (talk) 03:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Input request made @GliderMaven since the article falls under :Category:Supernatural and GliderMaven seem to have substantially contributed to the article Supernatural as per xtools Bookku (talk) 04:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Have you actually read what bold means or have you just taken it literal? VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 02:07, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I'll take the liberty to ping some users here who are often editing Islam-related articles, and are recently active: @Yasinzayd:, @Apaugasma:, @DivineReality:, @Aqsian313:, @Albertatiran: and @Aafi: Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!--TheEagle107 (talk) 02:54, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the last "undo" of edits under exegesis, I think it is fine to leave @TheEagle107's edits there. They are indeed relevant. Regarding Islamic studies, we must understand that in Islam, the opinions of great scholars hold much weight. So citing them as a source should be acceptable. Whether or not one chooses to follow that opinion is another story. But being exposed to different opinions and knowing who different scholars are is an important element in studying Islam.

Regarding this in the intro: "Many Muslim scholars, believe that belief in Jinn is essential to the Islamic faith, since jinn are mentioned in the Quran." First of all there are some typos and also I think there is ijma' anyways and it's not a matter of ikhtilaf to my knowledge. I would change it to: "Belief in the Jinn is essential to the Islamic faith, since jinn are mentioned in the Qur'an." I think it's fine to include that. Regarding this topic: if one disbelieves in any part of the Qur'an, they have left Islam entirely according to Sunnis. Also it is mentioned in Aqida Tahawiyah upon which there is ijma': https://www.abuaminaelias.com/aqeedah-tahawiyyah/ So yes, a Muslim must believe in the existence of Jinn to be a Muslim to my knowledge and I am unaware of any opinion to the contrary. I think citing Aqida Tahawiyah as a source is a good idea. That's my view. Take the best of it.

DivineReality (talk) 03:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Regarding Islamic studies, we must understand that in Islam, the opinions of great scholars hold much weight.

Not really, since in Islam there is no official clergy and who is trustworthy and who is not is eventually up for the individual. Apart from this claim to be factually wrong, it is besides the point since it is against the neutral point of view policy mentioned above. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 14:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I oppose the insertion into the lead. The lead is a summary and should not contain anything not already present in the body of the article. But these facts have not been added to the body of the article. I suggest that the adding editor find an appropriate place in the body of the article to add the fact, work with other editors until it is done in a place and a way that other editors do not object to. Only then would it be appropriate to start as discussion as to whether it should be in the lead and if so, how much weight it should be given. Skyerise (talk) 10:17, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

@Skyerise But it is present in the body of the article. In the Exegesis section.

... many Muslim scholars, including the Hanbalī scholar ibn Taymiyya and the Ẓāhirī scholar ibn Hazm, believe they are essential to the Islamic faith, since they are mentioned in the Quran. ...

The dispute being discussed or that was discussed, includes adding a bit more to this section. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 20:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Typically, if there is only one sentence about something in the body, that's not enough to give it enough weight to also add it to the lead. If the article goes more in depth about a topic, say a paragraph or two, then a sentence in the lead might be considered. But you are going to need more than one proponent of the position and of course sufficient third-party sources to support more material in the body before it makes sense to bring it up in the lead - otherwise the lead would be the size of the body, if every sentence was equally important! Skyerise (talk) 21:57, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

The lede is pretty long. The sentence

Many Muslim scholars, believe that belief in Jinn is essential to the Islamic faith, since jinn are mentioned in the Quran.

... not so much. The issue -- a requirement to be a true Muslim -- pretty important. But I will drop the issue for now. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 01:49, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I would suggest adding this paragraph to the lead: "The word 'jinn' and its variants are mentioned 29 times in the Qur'an, and one of its chapters is even named after them." Or at least it should be mentioned in the lead that there is a whole chapter in the Qur'an that talks about the jinn.

Here are some sources that might be of interest:

... These two passages provide the strongest textual verification of the existence of jinn within Islam. Belief in the existence of jinn is considered equivalent to belief in the existence of angels, one of the primary articles of faith in Islam, and consequently, to disbelieve in them would be heretical. The majority of Muslims believe jinn to be a species of spiritual beings created by God out of smokeless fire long before he created humans out of mud. God gave jinn the earth to inhabit. They are drawn to both good and evil.

In Islam the existence of jinns is axiomatic: according to Muslim belief, jinns were created of fire, in contrast to the angels, who were created from light. They are considered more powerful than men, but less powerful than angels. The jinn is capable of humanly impossible tasks, and the intelligence of the jinn is considered much superior to that of humans. The belief in jinns is so strong in Muslim and Arab thought that Muslim theologians judge disbelief in jinns as heresy – except for the Mu'tazila, who dare to question their existence.

The jinn are considered by some authorities to be an integral part of the Islamic faith due to their inclusion in the Quran.

Jinn are an integral part of both traditional and Gnostic Islamic belief. They are referred to 25 times in the Qur'an, not counting surah 72 (“The Jinn”).

The jinn are an integral part of the Muslim tradition from the Qur'an onwards and thus are inescapable even for the modernists (who often see them as internalized psychological states).

... Some Muslims educated in the modern Western tradition maintain that mentions of angels and jinn in the Koran should be taken allegorically rather than literally, but they are in a small minority, and even they never quite lose their fear of the jinn.

According to traditional Islamic faith, djinns were created by Allah out of smokeless fire (Qur'an 15:27). As such, Muslims generally consider these creatures part and parcel of the living world and believe that they actively participate in the lives and social interactions of humans, as do angels and Iblis (i.e., Satan) for that matter.

Jinn are supernatural entities created by God before the creation of Adam. Whereas Adam was created from clay, the jinn were created "from the fire of a scorching wind" (Q 15:27) or "from fire free of smoke" (Q 55:15). They are mentioned several times in the Qur'an as well as in numerous other genres, including sira (biography), hadith (tradition), kalam (theology), and adab (literature). Belief in their existence continues in many predominantly Islamic countries to the present day, and fascination with these creatures in the West is evidenced by their appearance in popular movies and novels. Although they feature prominently in folklore, jinn are also taken quite seriously by Muslim scholars, both medieval and modern. Like humans, jinn have free will, and although many of them were converted to Islam by the Prophet Muhammad, others despaired at the coming of the new religion.

Common narratives usually portray jinns as evil or mischievous, but they can also appear to be as morally complex as human beings. Muslim scholars have taken their existence seriously, even considering the legal question of whether jinns and humans could intermarry; Mālik, foundational figure for the Māliki legal school, argued that such a marriage was not itself a violation of sacred law, but added that it seemed undesirable. One hadith scholar in the eighteenth century presented a narration whose chain of transmission included two jinn reporters.

Peace.TheEagle107 (talk) 05:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Noone here disputes if the jinn are important or not. This is completely besides the point. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 15:20, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Can some of this information be included in the article? --Louis P. Boog (talk) 16:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Refs to this section

References

Suggestion for addition to Exegesis subsection

Following Bookku's suggestion that I do research in WP:RS I looked up Jinn in the wikipedia library and found material in Encyclopaedia of Islam New Edition Online (EI-2 English) I think should go in the Exegesis subsection. It seems to indicate pretty strongly that "the existence of the d̲j̲inn was completely accepted" in early Islam. I would just add parts of it to the article now but that would distract from the discussion at hand.

II. In official Islam the existence of the d̲j̲inn was completely accepted, as it is to This day, and the full consequences implied by their existence were worked out. Their legal status in all respects was discussed and fixed, and the possible relations between them and mankind, especially in questions of marriage and property, were examined. Stories of the loves of d̲j̲inn and human beings were evidently of perennial interest. The Fihrisl gives the titles of sixteen of these (308) and they appear in all the collections of short tales (cf., e.g., Dāwūd al-Anṭākī, Tazyīn al-aswāḳ , Cairo 1308, 181 ff.; al-Sarrād̲j̲, Maṣārīʿ al-ʿus̲h̲s̲h̲āḳ , Istanbul 1301, 286 ff.). There are many stories, too, of relations between saints and d̲j̲inn; cf. D. B. Macdonald, Religious attitude and life in Islam, 144 ff. A good summary of the question is given in Badr al-Dīn al-S̲h̲iblī (d. 769/1368), Ākām al-mard̲j̲ān fī aḥkām al-d̲j̲ān (Cairo 1326); see also Nöldeke’s review in ZDMG, lxiv, 439 ff. Few even of the Muʿtazila ventured to doubt the existence of ¶ d̲j̲inn, and only constructed different theories of their nature and their influence on the material world. The earlier philosophers, even al-Fārābī, tried to avoid the question by ambiguous definitions. But Ibn Sīnā, in defining the word, asserted flatly that there was no reality behind it. The later believing philosophers used subterfuges, partly exegetical and partly metaphysical. Ibn K̲h̲aldūn, for example, reckoned all references to the d̲j̲inn among the socalled mutas̲h̲ābih passages of the Ḳurʾān, the knowledge of which Allāh has reserved to himself (Ḳurʾān, III, 5). These different attitudes are excellently treated in the Dict , of techn. terms , i, 261 ff.; cf. also al-Rāzī, Mafātīḥ, lxxii.

--Louis P. Boog (talk) 16:09, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Please sign your posts, so we can properly reply to it and know who is participating in the discussion. I would ignore this comment entirely, for these reasons, if my comment made above does not apply here as well. I also recommand to read the entire article, since the article states multiple times that most Muslims believed in jinn from the very beginning up to the post-modern period and "even after graduating in medicine" this believe may not change.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 15:23, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

@Louis P. Boog I suggest you drop updates to Lead until you have improved consensus on rest of the article body and so first focus what updates you are looking in the rest of article body.

May be you copy the article body in your personal Sandbox update it and then propose specific changes.

Bookku (talk) 03:17, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Refs to this sub-section

References

Proposed rewriting of body of article

here (in my Sandbox).
Includes my version and bits from TheEagle107 --Louis P. Boog (talk) 19:55, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Note: all specific changes/proposed edits are in the blue highlight of {{talkquote| to distinguish them.
@Bookku: notifying you first Bookku for your comments before sending general notice to all involved users. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 20:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Noted, give me a day or two to go through. Bookku (talk) 03:32, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

There are some improvements, yet same parts need a more fleshed out spelling.

who "worked out" the consequences implied by their

reads like a subtile thread. Given that you previously tried multiple times to add that a Muslim received death-threats for stating that jinn do not form an external reality (a position definately present in Medieval Age Islam as cited in the article), it cannot be ruled out that this is exactly what you have in mind.

Jinn have been called "an integral part" of the Muslim tradition or faith, "completely accepted" in official Islam; prominently featured in folklore, but also taken "quite seriously" by both medieval and modern Muslim scholars

might also suffer from a citation overdosis and some weasal words. Ask yourself, what is "official Islam"? What is the difference between "Muslim tradition" and "Muslim faith"? What does "quite seriously" mean? Bad writing might decrease the quality of an otherwise pretty decent article, which could soon meet GA or even FA standards. The prominence of jinn in Islamic theology, jurisprudence, and the Quran, is made clear right below the paragraph you want to add. WIth other words, without your addition, it is exactly the next thing the reader is gonna read. The quesiton here is, how is this repeation an improvement? VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 21:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

According to the Qur'an 34:12–13, God subjugated the jinns under the control of Solomon so as to have their assistance in the construction of huge buildings. They used to perform tasks for Solomon that required great skill, wisdom, and technical expertise. I am not 100% sure if the text of the article mentions anything about this; if not, then it probably should. Good work anyway!

Here are some more sources for you:

Muslims accept the existence of the jinn as part of their faith.

The belief in jinn is very much alive in Morocco and like the belief in angels and the devil it is part of Islamic dogma.

Islamic dogma lists humans as the third spiritual creature created by Allah after angels and jinn.

And finally, here is an interesting article in Arabic about jinn in Islam written by one of the researchers of the Muhammadan League of Religious Scholars. Cheers!TheEagle107 (talk) 01:37, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Reply to VVF at the request of Bookku

@VenusFeuerFalle @ Bookku

Having trouble with your English. what is a subtile thread?

Given that you previously tried multiple times to add that a Muslim received death-threats for stating that jinn do not form an external reality (a position definately present in Medieval Age Islam as cited in the article), it cannot be ruled out that this is exactly what you have in mind.

Not sure what you are talking about. This seems to be in conflict with at least one scholar (Mark Sedgwick)

Openly expressing of doubt about the existence of j̲inn was not common even amidst the Muʿtazila; and among the erstwhile philosophers, al-Fārābī also, tried to skip the question with vague definitions. Ibn Sīnā was an outlier-- he outrightly rejected their existence. In present-day Islam, only a "small number" believes that jinn in the Quran should be understood symbolically instead of literally. (Mark Sedgwick (2006). Islam & Muslims: A Guide to Diverse Experience in a Modern World. Hachette UK. p. 72. ISBN 9781473643918.)

(and you might add that you were the one who deleted the incident about a Muslim received death-threats.)

"who 'worked out' the consequences implied by their"

'worked out' is a direct quote from the source (Jinn, Encyclopaedia of Islam New Edition Online (EI-2 English), D.B. MacDonald, H. Massé, P.N. Boratav, K.A. Nizami, and P. Voorhoeve)

Ask yourself, what is "official Islam"? What is the difference between "Muslim tradition" and "Muslim faith"? What does "quite seriously" mean? Bad writing might decrease the quality of an otherwise pretty decent article,

These are different terms different scholars used to describe the importance of Jinn in Islam. Again, these (mostly) quotes come from the sources, reputable scholars, all cited -- "an integral part" of the Muslim tradition from Mark A. Caudill (2006). Twilight in the Kingdom: Understanding the Saudis. Bloomsbury Publishing USA. p. 92. ISBN 9780313084850., etc. Is this "bad writing"? If a third party suggests rewriting it I suppose I might not mind as long as the substance of the text remains. I suppose we leave that to the RfC. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 01:45, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

references