Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses by country

Grouping by continent or region

There is a difference between the groupings in the main article and the groupings in the 2009 Yearbook. This is indicated by the regional summary boxes on pages 43, 47, 52, 55 and 60, which give the regional subtotals for population, average publishers and average Bible studies. I created two spreadsheets available to subscribers of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jwtalks/files which are named "2008 Report.xls" and "2008 Sorted.xls". I assigned each country a group number: 1 = Africa, 2 = the Americas, 3 = Asia & the Middle East, 4 = Europe, and 5 = Oceania. Using this arrangement, I have perfectly verified the subtotals for groups 2, 4 and 5 (all lands in those groups published a report).

For groups 1 and 3 the only remaining problem was where to put the Mascarene Islands lands (Réunion, Mauritius, and Rodrigues). That was solved by noting that if Réunion is counted in group 1, the total average number of publishers for named lands exceeds the number listed on page 43 (even without including unnamed lands); so I moved it, Mauritius and Rodrigues to group 3, and everything now lines up properly. --Glenn L (talk) 15:52, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Update: I have just uploaded the 2009 Service Report to the jwtalks Yahoo! group. The format for the Excel spreadsheets "2009 Report.xls" and "2009 Sorted.xls" is virtually identical to that for those for the 2008 Service Report. Whoever edits the main article may wish to use the spreadsheets to update the article to reflect the 2009 data. Or, if there is a way to embed the sorted spreadsheet into the article, that might work better. In the latter case, I should be able to edit it to incorporate the continental groups listed in the article. As with 2008, the Seychelles are still grouped with Africa; the Mascarene Islands with Asia; the Azores, Greenland and Russia with Europe; and all the Pacific Islands (including Hawaii, Guam and the Mariana Islands) with Oceania. --Glenn L (talk) 08:33, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I can't access your files. Perhaps you could put them somewhere that doesn't require signing up to a website.

It isn't really a problem that the article lists countries by their actual continents that don't correspond precisely with the groupings used by the Watch Tower Society. If a majority of editors agree that it would be a better presentation, it could be changed, though if so, it would be nice to add/amend footnotes to correctly indicate the actual continents for those countries/dependencies that are moved to the wrong continent lists. It may be nice to include some of the totals (e.g. publishers, congregations) by continent if the source material specifically includes them. The accuracy of figures in the Watch Tower source material for populations of countries are often rounded, resulting in significant compounding of error when attempting to give populations for continents or the whole world, so total populations by continent are inadvisable.

It isn't appropriate to embed an Excel file directly in a Wikipedia article.--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:02, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Understood. I'll update the info myself in the coming days, although it won't be as easy as creating the spreadsheets was. :( --Glenn L (talk) 20:19, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Service year 2010

I have updated the numbers for Africa with the report from the Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses 2011. The comming days I'll be updating more countries in batches. If one descides to update the numbers too, then please align the numbers to the right in the text. That doesn't change in the actual text, but makes it visible to us that these countries are allready updated. Not sure? then take a look at the Africa countries.

The next continent I'll start on is Europe, so if you want to update some countries aswell, I suggest tht you pick another continent. --Rodejong (talk) 22:58, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I've condensed the intro of the section into a ref because the reference repeated the text in the section. I'm in two minds about it though. What do you think of the way I've done the ref?--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:14, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

The new numbers for Publishers don't match those at http://www.watchtower.org/e/statistics/worldwide_report.htm, but the rest of the details seem to match. Is the Yearbook listing something other than 'Peak Witnesses/Publishers'? Maybe it's a monthly average?--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:26, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

oldid_422759217 (last undid)

• (Moved from User Talk)--Jeffro77 (talk) 22:42, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Hello again, Jeffro77,

I just curious about my 11 edits during 6th April, 2011 on this article

April 7th, 2011 are just unsound revisions from many editors including me.

Last proper edit is oldid_422759217 from (21:31, 6 April 2011). That several edits was deeply changed or naturally annihilated. Difference is here.

Recently talking about several insights at my newly created talk page here.

What is Your viewpoint?

--89.176.227.251 (talk) 10:29, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

The edits were changed for the reasons already stated in my edit summary. For example, 'average' means what 'average' always means, and the elaboration was unnecessary. There were similar reasons for other edits which did not require the degree of elaboration you added, as well as some minor edits relating to quality. You are welcome to discuss at the article's Talk page to get the views of other editors.--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:57, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

To yesterday I just thought that average types are more than one (for example and other types as well). Moreover I didnt know which systematically calculation usually use Wachtower (WTBTS) to yesterday evening. There are many calculation types like monthly, yearly, or system with temporarly publisher for average (for exmaple ... average publisher are only those, who get service reports 6 months continusly. Same difference when talking about "peak publishers". What is peak? Precisely what number of publishers during time periods or highest number serviced in single month of year or even any other conclusion? Many other observation like about Bible studies, Publishers, Christ´s Memorial ... I know just since yesterday and here at Wikipedia are no similar statements (or I missed somewhere?), which clearly explain that terms. (with not allowing any disambiguation!!). Many headlines (which I believe are correct) you recognized like grammar fault. (from publications - upper case character in most cases ... but surely at least in word "Bible" in english phrases). etc. That corrections what was dubiousness about are more. Other things like states and map coherence with appeal on human liberties, or several other edits which is technically maybe not so sure source, but relevant. But Ok. Not discuss about if You want not proper knowledge about. --89.176.227.251 (talk) 12:29, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Though there are other terms (such as the median or mode) that are sometimes referred to as average, the typical meaning of the word 'average' is the sum of the samples divided by the number of samples (the mean), and this is the usage employed in the article in question; unless using one of the less typical forms, it does not need to be explained (and the median or mode are not practical in the context of the information).

JWs who report preaching for "6 months continuously" are not called 'average publishers'; if they skip a month, they're called "irregular", and if they don't submit a report for 6 months, they're called "inactive". (Your misunderstanding seems to be related to the fact that the words average and regular can both mean typical, however "regular publisher" refers to the frequency of preaching, not the mathematical average.)

The peak is obviously the highest reported value during that year.

Terms such as 'Bible studies' and 'publishers' are elaborated on at Organizational structure of Jehovah's Witnesses; the Memorial is discussed at Practices of Jehovah's Witnesses; explanation of these special terms is beyond the scope of the 'countries' article (I have now linked the first instance of 'Memorial' to the relevant article).

I've restored the capitalised headings.

The source referring to the map was not removed.

In future, please discuss edits related to a specific article at that article's Talk page rather than my Talk page so other editors can also provide input.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:54, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

You could move this one to JW´s by country talk page.

In case of publishers and in case of studies, there are aritmetic mean from 12 months.

In case of "peak publishers" ... are you sure, how they recognized this peak? ... I´m not, but probably is based on numbers from "most active month" within a year. (for example April has usually higher numbers than January). So its used "peak month". But this is not yet confirmed.

Perhaps also sum of all publishers, who join in service during all 12 months. (someone in January, other one in February etc. ... and sum total of all people try its own service during a year) = This could may be sense of "peak". :))

I will left from this IP for few days since today. Greetings --89.176.227.251 (talk) 13:13, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

The logical conclusion for the peak, which you have indicated here as your own conclusion, is the highest reported monthly value.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:17, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I think so, but not confirmed yet.

OK, but are You sure?

--89.176.227.251 (talk) 13:19, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it's confirmed, and the numbers for the peaks compared to the averages fairly clearly indicate the context of the peak anyway. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Perhaps also sum of all publishers, who join in service during all 12 months. (someone in January, other one in February etc." It would be statistically meaningless to add the totals from each of the months and present the total as a peak, and the numbers don't support such an assumption. --Jeffro77 (talk) 13:25, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree. If its will be "really sum total" of all months, so probably around 10 million or more. Maybe aproximate of 3/5 or 4/5 of Memorial Attendance (from 18,7m) numbers. (But this is only my speculate). There are no concrete numbers, how many of MA are babtized, unbabtized, Bible students (applicants or interested persons) and how many of these attendance are friends, relatives, first-time persons, incomers, aliens, strangers and just normal out-of-JW people. Or are there any such estimates? For example "convention assemblies" also not indicate sure numbers (who are from inside, and who are from outside). Or are there? --89.176.227.251 (talk) 13:38, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

There are no attempts to separate the number of 'outsiders' from the number of members when counting attendance at JW events. However, the numbers can be estimated based on the number of 'baptized publishers' compared to the 'total memorial attendance. However, there is no point in speculating here. If you want to discuss current or proposed content, please start a section at the article's Talk page.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:47, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I am here now. --90.182.221.2 (talk) 18:34, 7 April 2011 (UTC) I think this comparation (MA numbers + newly babtized numbers) are not "close to truth" estimates. These numbers not include they which died in that year (how many from cca. 20 million could die every year?? How is stand for current real demographics? No-one know. ... and remember ... death-rate of "average people" haven´t to be similar to death-rate of JW´s. It could be significantly lower or higher.), those who are excommunicated (apostates because Bible´s or organization´s rules). These people are also divided to apostates for "self-desicioned leaving" from JW´s //or// exclusion for "withdrawal of a gregariousness" from JW´s. .... Few years ago I read that these "apostates" are aproximately 100,000 persons per year!!! (on apostasy website ... so unsure infos, but... what if it is truth?!). So the complete demographics of JW´s are much more sophisticated and complex than only sum of babtized and Peak Publishers //or// Memorial attendance. For exmaple, "conventions attendance" or "congregations attendance with study through The Watchtower study edition", is also another different numbers. // In the case of Memorial Attendance numbers, some of interested persons come in (only some of them....most of applicants not to come in), but some of babtized members maybe not! (surely all members not to come to MA) These numbers are not be using for estimation. //// There are always "active", "irregular", "inactive" and "leaving when unbabtized" or "exclusion or leaving after babtism" etc.
Move this complete topic to talk page of that article, please.

--90.182.221.2 (talk) 18:53, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Um... thanks for the link on "died", but I already know the word. This is all speculation and doesn't seem to be anything we can add to the article. If you have sources then more detail can be added to the article.--Jeffro77 (talk) 22:42, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this last edit was speculation only, but I´d like to know what is truth about real JW demographics. Its not so important, but very intersting to find some more details.

Demographics of Jehovah's Witnesses

Jehovah's Witnesses by country

List of magazines by circulation

Classification, Polity and Organizational structure we already discussed

Death and Apostasy rates are not included in any wiki articles, I guess.

So far only Africa numbers are up-to-date. (+30 others land + total). I will (maybe!) update rest of countries with 2010 service year numbers from yearbook. --90.182.221.2 (talk) 07:33, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

nice article about apostasy also here

maybe new article to do or some redirecting at least.

--90.182.221.2 (talk) 08:41, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

quote: "I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Perhaps also sum of all publishers, who join in service during all 12 months. (someone in January, other one in February etc." It would be statistically meaningless to add the totals from each of the months and present the total as a peak, and the numbers don't support such an assumption." ... I mean some single indvidual publishers may service only in few months or even single month (and rest of year not). If statistically taken these people join to numerical average of all 12 months, ... that peak should be signifacntly different. (perhaps higher)... because sum of total individuals people is IMHO more accurate than "easy average" of each month. (Most of publishers are taken all months, so duplicated in that "average" result in all 12 numbers. Rather calculate them as every single individual (with have no regard to how many months they serviced, ... but calculate them each as one single publisher) like clear 1 .. and from that calculate a "peak". ... so number of individuals in peak .... not only numerical peak ...) I know, maybe hard to understand. And harder to explain that difference between this calculation theories. --90.182.221.2 (talk) 08:56, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

You've used a lot of words to indicate the fundamental definition of the word "peak". Note sure why you felt the need to link "duplicated".--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:27, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Maybe is need to read once more to understand carefully. --90.182.221.2 (talk) 13:23, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

No, I don't need to read it again. I'm not really interested in continuing this discussion if you're not suggesting a change to the article. --Jeffro77 (talk) 19:03, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

OK. discussion ended. --89.176.227.251 (talk) 13:52, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I´m working on all continents update

Africa was correct. Its very hard work despite paradigm is ready. --89.176.227.251 (talk) 00:12, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

I have completed this using the report on the JW website.--Jeffro77 (talk) 02:29, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Wow! 14 edits! How could do so quick? Do yo have some automation like with MS Excel spreadheets or sth automatic? --89.176.227.251 (talk) 06:55, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I used string handling functions in Excel to sort by continent and add the Wiki table formatting. I can re-use the same sheet next time a new report is released. I still had to do a little bit of manual editing , but much much easier.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:43, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Could you send me that file with macros for my own personal using, please? to uloztoprome @ gmail dot com --89.176.227.251 (talk) 07:48, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

It's not using any macros, just functions. It's not fully automatic so I'm not really comfortable sharing it just yet. If I streamline the process a bit more I'll send you a copy.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:01, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank You :)) (for future help). --89.176.227.251 (talk) 08:18, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

The method I used also relies on the 'wikEd' gadget (in the Wikipedia Gadget Preferences page) for reformatting the Excel table into text that is usable in Wikiformat. Otherwise it will make a very bad mess.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:23, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Is it ready now? I registered here and join to WP:JW and other projects. Which type of help is or will be needed. I want to learn and help. --FaktneviM (talk) 20:28, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Is what ready now? I've updated this article recently, so it's currently up-to-date. You might like to look at the other JW-related articles listed at Wikipedia:JW#Articles related to Jehovah's Witnesses. JW articles are often controversial, so it is usually a good idea to discuss at articles' Talk pages before making significant changes. Of course, Wikipedia encourages editors to be bold, so you can also make an edit first, and then discuss if another editor objects. Information should be neutral and based on verifiable sources.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:52, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

An Excel file for JW by country and my e-mail.

Ok. Which sources have JW WikiProject users available to access for members? For example, have you or others in our JWproject access to all Watchtower Reprints, or Watchtower Library CD, all books, all Our Kingdom ministry, etc. and other sources, which most of people outside Wiki have not? What could I use? --FaktneviM (talk) 08:36, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

I created an Excel file for my own use to make it easier for me to update this page. I have decided not to make the Excel file available to others because the process is not entirely automated and I'm not interested in providing support for its use. The source data is available on the JW website, which anyone can access.

You can cite any reliable sources available to you. The Watch Tower Reprints are available online[1].--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:24, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Percentages

I noticed that there is no column for publishers per 100 population, which is how one might estimate what percent of people are JWs in each country. Would such a column be a good or bad idea? --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 01:24, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

The source material (the JW yearbook) provides ratios of JWs per population, and this information could possibly be provided in the charts. The source material does not provide percentages. Because the population figures provided by the source material are estimates and the JW source doesn't provide any further sources for those figures, percentages calculated therefrom would compound the error of the estimates, and would not themselves be sourced, which may constitute synthesis. Also, a percentage may not be particularly meaningful, as the percentage of JWs is less than 1% in almost all countries. Apart from Zambia (nearly 1.2%) the only countries where the number of JWs exceeds 1% are small islands with relatively low populations.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:10, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

'Peak publishers'

I have removed reference to 'peak publishers'. The numbers supplied are the average publisher figures as published by the Watch Tower Society. This is for two reasons:

1. The Watch Tower Society bases its growth rates based on the average yearly figures.
2. When members fail to submit a report in one month and then submit two reports the following month, the duplicate report affects the peak. This balances out the average publisher records, but can result in inaccurate 'peak' figures.

I am considering adding a ratio column to each table indicate the number of JWs per population (as provided by the Watch Tower Society). It would be nice if other editors could comment on whether this may be worthwhile.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:32, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

2016

I have reverted the recent edits by User:Per excellence, who changed the values for some sections to the 'peak publisher' values. This is for the same reasons as last year, noted above.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:30, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

2017

Per excellence (talk · contribs) has now added a column for 'peak publishers' (rather than previously replacing the figures). The peak values are not especially helpful for the reasons previously explained. But perhaps Per excellence may be able to provide some rationale for retaining these values.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:10, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

2018 updates

As the available source data has changed significantly, I have changed the columns accordingly. 'Peak' figures are no longer provided in the source data. 'Bible study' figures are no longer provided, making the corresponding paragraph in the lead redundant, so it has also been removed.

I have also added the list of sovereign states for which no statistics are reported. This is provided simply to aid readers so they don't have to scour the individual lists to determine that a particular country isn't listed. The list does not purport to precisely identify the "33 other lands", which should be obvious since there are 35 countries with no specific statistics (and JW use of the term 'land' is undefined). Countries that are not broadly recognised as independent sovereign states (e.g. Abkhazia, Transnistria), are not listed, as disputed political boundaries are outside the scope of this list article.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:44, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for that, —PaleoNeonate – 15:01, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Latest Update

Is this following the latest stats? If not, you can find the latest stats on their website. Here is the link: https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/worldwide/ Ghinga7 (talk) 15:53, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

The data is the latest available. The source you have provided has links for individual countries, which is somewhat more cumbersome than the collated source already used as indicated in the article.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:29, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

2020 updates

I have updated the list with details from the 2019 Service Report. As the 'average publishers' have been provided in the source data this year, I have used those figures in this list instead of the less reliable "Peak Publishers", which can count individuals more than once, as stated in The Watchtower, 15 August 2011, page 22: "“Peak publishers” is the highest number reporting for any one month of the service year and may include late reports that were not added to the preceding month’s report. In this way some publishers may be counted twice."--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:09, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

2021 updates

The figures for 2021 have now been released. I currently only have mobile access which is not particularly convenient for updating the data here. I will update the page later in January if the figures are not updated by others sooner.—Jeffro77 (talk) 12:22, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done I have added the Bible Study figures (and related preamble in lead) that have been included this year in the source data after having been removed for the last few years (see 2018 updates section above).--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:33, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

2022 updates

Figures for 2022 have been updated.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:38, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

2023 updates

I have updated with the figures for 2023. I have also added columns for the 'peak' and 'baptism' figures. Notes have also been added about how the 'peak' figure is determined.--Jeffro77 Talk 09:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Country order

An editor has recently objected to the presentation of the name of South Korea as "Korea (South)" (though the country name is now actually presented as "Korea (Republic)", which better reflects both the source and the official name of the country). The current presentation reflects the official name, and despite the editor's claim in an edit summary, it is not difficult to find in the list. The only entries in the lists that use "North" or "South" as part of the name are countries where the word appears in the official name (in English). (Another editor also recently prepended "The" to some country names; however, this unnecessarily interferes with the sort order.)--Jeffro77 Talk 08:47, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

The Congo, The Gambia

I tried to change it, but Jeffro77 removed it. In English, we say "The Congo" and "the Gambia". Excuse my bad English, it's not my mother tongue. Tsinguidi (talk) 12:41, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

It is quite common to remove “The” from the start in such lists, as it improves the sorting both programmatically and visually. For example, see List of sovereign states, List of African countries by population, List of African countries by area.—Jeffro77 Talk 20:52, 7 May 2024 (UTC)