Talk:James Douglas, Lord of Douglas

Untitled

Why do we feel the need to hide the physical descriptions of the Good Sir Douglas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Parrish Smith (talk • contribs)

What is Sir James Douglas' Gaelic name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.226.110.226 (talk • contribs)

I'd wager something like "Seumas Dubhglas". I'm not so sure about that, though. -- Ashmodai 07:16, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Not really relevant. As the son of a Flemish knight, it is more likely he spoke French and Middle English. He might have learned Gaelic from his nurse. 86.152.101.254 (talk) 10:11, 2 June 2010 (UTC) He was not the son of a Flemish knight. he may have had Flemish ancestors at six or eight generations remove. he would certainly have spoken the Scots of Barbour, which developed alongside, but is not derived from, Middle English. Growing up in Lanarkshire there is no reason to think his nurse would have spoken Gaelic. As an educated man he would have probably learned to read French in childhood and presumably would have become practised at speaking it when he was resident there.

Coat of Arms

Should we put Sir James Douglas' coat of arms on this page? It seems to be something like [1]. The heart was only added after he received the heart of Bruce, but can be found in most coats of arms that are based on Sir James Douglas'. I could throw something together in Paint Shop Pro, but I'm not sure whether there are any Wikipedia guidelines for that. -- Ashmodai 07:16, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Black and White

This is a poor, badly paced article about one of the most significant soldiers-and guerilla fighters-in Scottish history. Too much space is devoted to his experience in Spain and not nearly enough on his early career. In general it requires a wholesale rewrite to let the world understand his true significance, but for the time being I have confined myself to correcting several highly irritating errors and misconceptions. For those who wish to follow the path these are as follows:

DOUGLAS LARDER. Warfare at this time was barbaric by its very nature, and it is pointless to make specific reference to it, or to explain, or to excuse. The point about the 'Douglas Larder' was not that it was 'barbaric' but that it was unique, and therefore far from being 'common practice.'

CHAPTER OF MYTON. Bruce did not send Douglas and Moray to 'lift' the siege by direct attack, as the wording of this piece implied; he had much better military sense than that. The two commanders were sent on a diversionary raid into Yorkshire, intended to draw the English away from Berwick. How Douglas was able to 'see' that that most of the English army was from the north is beyond my comprehension (do northeners look different?). There was no 'Archbishop of Melton'. William Melton was Archbishop of York. Melton most certainly did not form an army of 'prelates' (where did all those bishops come from?), but an army in part made up of priests, monks friars and other minor clerics. We should not assume that the clerics were incompetent as soldiers. Virtually all of them would have been born into noble families and the use of arms would nave been part of their education. Also, a good many clerics - and prealtes too - spent a considerable part of their lives soldiering - Antony Bek of Durham for example. OLD BYLAND. Edward III did not 'lead' the army of 1322 into Scotland for the simple reason that he did not come to the throne until five years later (Prince Edward was only ten years old in 1322). I would have excused-and corrected- this as a simple typo, but it appears again a little later, and even more absurdly. The army of 1322 was, of course, led by his father, Edward II, who was not present at and therefore did not 'flee' from the battle of Old Byland.

WEARDALE. The reference to the near capture of Edward III is hopelessly out of place and under narrated. This incident occured in the Weardale campaign of 1327, which deserves much fuller treatment, and is infinitely more important than some of the other incidents alluded too here. The English army was never sent specifically to capture Douglas. This should not need saying; but it clearly does. Rcpaterson 01:29, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Should something be added about the Logan clan with the heart of the Bruce thing? Highlandlord 18:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Systematic rewrite now underway. Rcpaterson 02:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Finished, saving any minor amendments. Rcpaterson 00:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Move

If there are no complaints, this article is being moved to Sir James Douglas. He was possibly the first and certainly the most famous to take this article name. Even tho' he was known as the Black Douglas to his enemies, it was only his great nephews that differentiated between Black and Red. Brendandh 02:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

There is an objection, namely WP naming conventions concerning honorifics in titles (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Other non-royal names). Unfortunately, I moved it to the wrong name - I wasn't aware it had a previous name, but was acting on the discussion in James Douglas (disambiguation). I have removed it to what apparently was its former title. fishy 21:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I find this move back rather annoying, Sir James Douglas was the first of his name on historic record, a great hero of the wars of Scottish Independence, and furthermore was known as Sir James within his lifetime and by contemporary chroniclers, a name also by which he is known today. The disambiguation problems by calling him the Black Douglas arise because all Earls of Douglas and their close kindred from the 3rd Earl of Douglas to the ninth were known as Black Douglas. This to differentiate betrween them and the Red Douglas Earls of Angus. Sir James was feudal superior of the barony of Douglas, called commonly today a lairdship, but know then as the lordship of Douglas, this was not a title in peerage, as this had not been formally rationalised at this date. The name James which has been used as a common name throughout the history of the House of Douglas is in regard of this early warrior. The governor of British Columbia, although I am not sure of it exactly, was (great?) grandson of Dunbar Douglas, 4th Earl of Selkirk, therefore a direct male descendant of Sir William the Hardy, Sir James Douglas father. regards. Brendandh 13:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Response at User Talk:Brendandh (responding to crosspost on my talk page). fishhead64 18:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Still not happy with this page title, I'm moving it to James Douglas, Lord of Douglas. Brendandh 23:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Its a moot point now, I know, but another problem with using Sir James Douglas as the title is that is doesn't disambiguate very well from other James Douglases, at least five of which are knights or baronets with pages on Wikipedia. (I got here looking for Governor Sir James Douglas, who is the person most Canadians would mean if they said it. Stevecudmore 21:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Moved

Sir James Douglas was only known to his enemies as the Black Douglas, to his comrades and countrymen he was The Guid Sir James. John Barbour's panegyric describes him as such. Now the WP guidelines on titles (silly if you ask me), do not allow knightly rank in article title even if that is what someone is best known as, therefore I have moved this article to his other designation, that of Lord of Douglas. Furthermore the first person to consciously use the name "Black Douglas" was Sir James' bastard son Archibald the Grim, Black Archibald, Lord of Galloway and 3rd Earl of Douglas. Brendandh 23:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I've never done this before so please excuse me if I mess something up here. I am actually working on a connection in my ancestry to Sir James Douglas. The Black Douglas. Whom ever edited the above seems very knowledgable so I would like to ask you if you know if Robert the Bruce did in fact dub Sir James Douglas as "The "Good" Knight?" I see in the text he was known also as the "Guid" Douglas and later knighted by Robert Bruce. The reason for this question is that in our familial records we were led to believe that when Robert The Bruce dubbed Sir James Douglas "The Good Knight" his name was changed (at some point) to Goodknight. There was also mention to the Black Douglas family leaving Scotland for Ireland then on to Germany (years or even centuries later) and finally arriving in America from Germany as Gutknecht, The german pronounciation of Goodnight. I know James fathered 2 children and I have reason to believe that the line my family would possibly connect with would be Archibald Douglas, The 3rd Earl of Douglas. Also, The Black Douglas and the Red Douglas were thus due to the color of their hair? Can you authenticate any of this information? My e-mail address is Banjo227@bellsouth.net and I would be greatful for any information you may have regarding Sir James Douglas or any information that would lead me to more details on his blood line.

The connection you may be looking for is William Douglas of Nithsdale, bastard son of Archibald the Grim, himself the bastard of Sir James. The 'Blackness' is a reference to the deeds of the man rather than his colouring. See this for more information [2]

Companions of James Douglas at Teba - Sir William de Keith

According to http://www.burkes-peerage.net/articles/scotland/esnews/es0502a.aspx (retrieved Dec 30, 2007), which is an extract from The Great Historic Families of Scotland, by James Taylor, M.A., D.D., F.S.A, published in 1887, the companion of James Douglas was Sir William de Keith of Galston (in Ayrshire), not the William de Keith who was Marischal of Scotland. The Marischal of Scotland in 1330 was Sir Robert de Keith, who fell at Dupplin in 1332.

I believe (can't immediately find confirmation other than dubious websites) that the William de Keith who was Marischal died in 1293.

Accordingly, I have removed the reference to this William de Keith (of Galston) as Marischal of Scotland. Toddj (talk) 16:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Un-wikipedian section titles

"Patriot with a cause", "Douglas! Douglas!" - come on. I'm not even reading the content; whoever does - please replace these with something encyclopedic.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 20:06, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

P.S. Not to mention the relevance of concepts such as "patriotism" and "nation" in the early 1330s!--91.148.159.4 (talk) 20:11, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Douglas' death at Teba

See Discussion in Wikipedia Article: 'The Battle of Teba.'

"This article contains much inaccuracy and error and therefore should not be relied on... It relies principally upon uncritical paraphrases of the mediaeval chronicles and, judging by the language, borrowed principally from the out-of-date and old-fashioned secondary accounts cited."

Any account of Douglas death at Teba castle that draws on the Spanish accounts of Alfonso's victory, as this article does, should mention the possibility that, according to the Spanish sources, Douglas had already been killed in a skirmish on the river some days previously. The death of an unfortunate 'foreign count' is mentioned (Described as being his own fault, for leaving the ranks of the Christians and attacking the Moors 'inopportunely') although there is no reference to Douglas by name. Including his death as described by the Scoto-French chronicles in an account of the decisive battle without discussing the conflicting sources would be to mislead the reader.

I have inserted a more accurate version of the battle. See 'The Battle of Teba' article.

Some of the more glaring errors:

Montrose It is more likely Douglas' contingent sailed from Berwick than Montrose, as related in John Barbour's 'Bruce'.

Sir James Balfour Paul states otherwise. "out of date and old fashioned", hmmm! Isn't this the point of history? I would also consider a Lord Lyon of thirty years standing to have an idea of what he is talking about. Brendandh (talk) 16:51, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

In matters of heraldry, one would of course defer to the Lord Lyon. Regarding Douglas' port of departure I would be more inclined to trust I.M. Davis, 'The Black Douglas', 1974, p.160 note* and A. McQuarrie, 'Scotland and the Crusades', 1985, p.77, n.42. These are by no means infallible but are at least reasonably contemporary and detailed analyses of Douglas' last trip. The map and logic, to my mind, support the observation that Berwick is more likely. Ultimately, it is a matter of opinion but, in my reading, a reference to Montrose generally indicates an uncritical reading of Froissart in ignorance of Barbour's alternative. In that context, Caroline Bingham's unqualified citing of Montrose in her 'Robert the Bruce'(1998, p.327) is difficult to explain.

As for 'out of date and old-fashioned', surely we are moving beyond the Romantic narrative in history. New data or re-evaluation of the old with fresh ideas means that with every generation we see more clearly, even if it means admitting sometimes that there are fewer certainties.

Perhaps you are confusing history with saga. JF42 (talk) 22:26, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

The party stopped first at Sluys There is no record of any other knights joining the Scots during their stay at Sluys. A letter of recommendation from Edward III to Alfonso XI of Castile in Douglas' possession indicates that Spain was a possible destination, if not intended from the outset.

The Moorish king. Muhammad IV was not present. The Berber general Uthman bin Abi-l-Ulá ('Ozmin' in Spanish sources) was in command and devised the stratagem to lure the Castilians away from their camp in order for him destroy their supplies.

The thrown heart account of Douglas' death is only found in Barbour. The 'legend' of the thrown heart is in fact a literary addition from the 16th century inserted in the 14th century original. The true legend is that this is now generally believed to have been Douglas' dying gesture. In fact, in the first printed versions of Barbour's poem where the story appears, Douglas threw the heart at the beginning of the battle to inspire his men. He recovers the casket and carries on fighting.

His body and the casket According to Barbour, the bodies of Douglas and his companions were recovered, not by Muhammad who was not present, but by the surviving men of the Scots contingent. As was customary when knights died in hot foreign lands, the flesh was boiled off the bones and these were then sent back to Scotland, along with the casket containing Bruce's heart. JF42 (talk) 23:34, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Simon Locard

"but can be assumed by the Lockharts' change of name and their arms." I have cut this amendment. It is not grammatical and without more detail is obscure. Locard's presence may be 'assumed' but without any historical foundation. The tradition, based in part on the change in the family surname from Locard to Lockheart and the accompanying rebus in their heraldic blazon, is not supported by any of the sources and is not itself relevant to Sir James Douglas' story. The Lockhart article in Wikipedia can examine this topic.JF42 (talk) 09:05, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Date and place of Douglas' death

RE: My "amendment of over-specific references to time and place of death" and your "Undid revision 549404331 by JF42 (talk)Explain please. Douglas did die at Teba." - Brendandh, I don't know if this the place to post it but my explanation is this:

It is fair to conclude that Douglas died at Teba. However, to say Douglas died at the Battle of Teba as moot, since the Castilian sources suggest he may have died before the climactic battle which is identified on Wikipedia as 'The Battle of Teba'. The Castilian cronica makes it clear there was only one general engagement at Teba (We can of course to distinguish between the Battle of Teba and the Siege of Teba). Both the French sources (Le Bel & Froissart), as well as Barbour and Fordun are ambiguous and flawed in regard to the military circumstances of Douglas' death- and of course these do not mention Teba at all. Therefore I believe it is more accurate simply to say Douglas died at Teba.

As far as the date 'August 25th 1330' is concerned, this appears in only one source, the comparitively late Bower in his C15th annotation of Fordun's Scotichronicon: "Apud castrum Tibris". Due to apparent scribal error there is also some confusion about whether the date should be 'Vii.kal.septembris or ‘viii kal.’

While a date in August 1330 is not unlikely, we really have no idea whether Douglas died on August 25th 1330 or not and, without confirmation from a reliable source, these being in short supply for the early C14th, it is surely more appropriate simply to say Sir James died in 1330. It prevents the many uncertainties, ambiguities and legends about Douglas' life and death being cut and posted as fact because they're on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JF42 (talk • contribs) 17:16, 15 April 2013 (UTC) JF42 (talk) 06:41, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Skirmish /Very big battle

With regard to the objection by 76.115.116.50 (crazy name, crazy guy) that the reference to Douglas dying in a minor skirmish "is simply inaccurate because the Gran Cronica refers to "a big battle in which a foreign count died"" - there are two points to make. First: I don't think anyone ever wrote "minor skirmish"- I could be mistaken but I think the phrase originally used was "fierce skirmish".

Secondly, the Castilian phrase used in the reconstituted "Gran Cronica" is "muy gran contienda." Contienda is a word which has a wide variety of meanings, only one of which is 'battle'. It also contains more nuanced references to conflict such as: confrontation, showdown, clash, a 'set-to' etc. Physical violence need not even be involved, although obviously in this case we can assume it was, but it is worth noting that the cronista(s) tend to use the words lid (pitched battle) or pelea (fight) when referring to military encounters between the Christians and the Moors.

During the siege of Teba, the Cronicas make it clear that there was only one general engagement, the two-pronged attack by Uthman that led to the rout of the Moorish relief force. It is stated specifically that Alfonso XI wanted to preserve his field force in order to meet any Moorish attempt to lift the siege with the maximum strength possible.

The "muy gran contienda" is depicted as the climax of a period of skirmishing. The Moors had been harassing the Christians as they watered their livestock outside the siege lines on the banks of Rio Guadalteba and to counter this Alfonso posted patrols to intercept the raiders. Describing the resultant clashes in the area of the river, the Gran Cronica goes on immediately to say "And one day on that river there was a very big {CONTIENDA} and from [among those serving in] the King's army, there died a foreign count...." Now, as we know, there was only one 'very big battle' at Teba, so it seems wholly appropriate to describe the 'muy gran contienda' as a particularly fierce skirmish or confrontation between the Christian patrols and the Moorish raiders, whether a more concerted Moorish interference with the Christian watering parties or a particularly forceful response by the Christians- or both, we can only speculate. The Gran Cronica ends the account of the death of the foreign count by relating it specifically to the defeat of Uthman's stratagem a few days later, the big battle, which is depicted as divinely orchestrated 'pay back' for the worthy but rash foreigner.

The distinction between the two levels of fighting seem to me to be clear and important to emphasise, particularly because of the insistence by some commentators that Douglas died during the defeat of Uthman's unsuccessful attack on the Christian siege camp which is questionable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JF42 (talk • contribs) 18:26, 15 April 2013 (UTC) JF42 (talk) 18:03, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

"Scottish warlord, landowner, and guerilla fighter"

It occurs to me this description is over specific and . I'm not sure 'warlord' is even appropriate. The Wiki link describes a situation which does not accurately describe Douglas' status, viz: "a person who has both military and civil[1] control over a subnational area due to the presence of armed forces who are loyal to the warlord rather than to a central authority."

Douglas was more accurately a feudal lord, even if at first the tenure of his family lands remained ambiguous. Thereafter his loyalty was unquestionably to the Scottish Crown and to the person of Bruce, who rewarded him with more land, though not a noble title.

Would it not be sufficient to say "Scottish knight and feudal lord"? I would suggest that "one of the chief commanders of the Wars of Scottish Independence"- surely covers his role in the fighting. True, this mostly consisted of raiding and skirmishes of varying size and intensity and involved only one truly pitched battle- Bannockburn- but 'Guerilla fighter' strikes me as both a touch anachronistic and redundant. Most fighting in this period was on a small scale, with sensible commanders avoiding pitched battle whenever possible, unless circumstances appeared to be overwhelmingly in their favour.

If no-one objects I'll change this in due course JF42 (talk) 17:14, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 11 July 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 (talk) 17:55, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

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James Douglas, Lord of Douglas → Sir James Douglas – Wikipedia's (in my opinion wrongful) policy is that knights shouldn't be accorded their title. However, WP:COMMONNAME states that articles should use the common name, and I've always seen this man referred to as "Sir James Douglas" or "the good Sir James"; never "the Lord of Douglas". Zacwill16 (talk) 09:27, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose MOS:HONORIFIC, and the article already provides options Black Douglas and Good Sir James; "Good Sir James" redirects here, and doesn't fall afoul of attaching an honorific to a name, since "Good Sir James" is clearly a nickname and not a real name with an honorific attached. -- 67.70.32.20 (talk) 09:34, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. We have articles on two other Sir James Douglases. There are at least three more who are all, of course, notable enough for articles but who don't yet have them. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:33, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose He was the feudal laird of Douglas and elsewhere, knighthood, and the relationship between landholding and peerage had yet to coalesce in early 14thc. Scotland. Sir King etc.? Brendandh (talk) 14:59, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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"The poet and chronicler John Barbour provides us with a pen portrait"

The quotation giving the description of Douglas is not that given by Barbour in the Brus but from a modern English translation- I am not sure which- but that should be made clear and the source cited.

JF42 (talk) 16:44, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Source found and cited JF42 (talk) 18:03, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

'Sir James' heart casket'

Although it might be a reasonable supposition, apart from the conventional heart-shaped form and the name plates inscribed centuries after the deaths of both Sir James, Lord of Douglas and Archibald Douglas, Earl of Angus, is there any evidence that these two objects contain the hearts of those individuals? Is there a date attached to them?

As it is, there is no mention in the text to these artefacts, nor is there reference in sources to Sir James Douglas's heart being brought back to Scotland or to its being interred in St Bride's church. This subject would merit a section of its own rather than being introduced in that image, apparently illustrating an unquestioned fact. JF42 (talk) Amended. JF42 (talk)

Coat of Arms II

"Arms borne by of all successive Douglases after Sir James." This caption to the accompanying illustration might not be quite correct either in heraldic terms or the historical assertion. There is also a typo that should be corrected. It might be better to make a more general statement, "Heraldic device with heart borne by Douglas' descendants" JF42 (talk) 05:42, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

twenty six esquires

"Douglas set sail from Berwick upon Tweed, accompanied by seven other knights with twenty six esquires and gentlemen."

Le Bel states that Douglas and his seven knights were accompanied by "XX escuiers beaulx et jounes." Froissart in his later adaptation of Le Bel, perhaps conflating knights and squires, changes this to "jusques a XXVI escuiers fors et jeunees."

It is probably best to cite the figure of twenty esquires offered by Le Bel as the earlier source. JF42 (talk) 09:01, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Noble Family: Clan Douglas

I believe this classification might be questionable since the noble family of which Sir James Douglas was the most notable ancestor as progenitor of the Earls of Douglas, is distinct from the more recent notion of a Clan Douglas based on a shared surname rather than aristocratic lineage. For this reason I suggest the addition is misleading and would be better removed. JF42 (talk) 18:16, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Date of death

The infobox says he died 1330, but the article text says 1329. Which is it? Neither has a citation SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 15:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I have sourced his death date, this is now fixed SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 15:24, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Logan of Restalrig

It appears that the Logan family did not acquire the barony of Restalrig until 1385, fifty five years after the Scottish involvement at Teba. The location is not mentioned in Barbour's 'Bruce' and it is first found attached to Sir Robert Logan in the context of his death in Spain by David Hume of Godcroft in his 'History of the Houses of Douglas and Angus' from 1644: "Amongst the gentlemen of good quality, were Sir William Sinclair of Rosline, Sir Robert Logan of Restalrig, and Sir William Keith."

I shall amended the text accordingly JF42 (talk) 08:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)