Talk:Jack Armstrong (artist)

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Luxlife (talk · contribs) This user has contributed to the article. This user has declared a connection. (declared here)

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Images

add image (The Last Wizard) - the artist (Jack Armstrong) sent me the .jpg file to post. Luxlife (talk) 20:39, 10 December 2021 (UTC)Luxlife add image (Warhol Naked) - the artist (Jack Armstrong) sent me the .jpg file to post. Luxlife (talk) 20:39, 10 December 2021 (UTC)Luxlife[reply]

Those images have been tagged as possible copyright violations - discussion is taking place here. Wikignome Wintergreen^talk 20:44, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requests/discussion from Luxlife

FYI

– Copied from Luxlife's user page. Wikignome Wintergreen^talk 03:50, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1) I can change the text to "His paintings are currently for sale between $10 million to $113 million" T

2) I tried to remove the text regarding the rape case in the "Life" section. It was an extortion attempt by the accuser, 4 years after she first reported. Jack refused to pay her. She then went to the police and he was arrested. The Beverly Hills PD privately dropped the case, since they lied about the date drug being used, then leaked the arrest to DMZ for publicity. No test was ever done. But neither Jack or I have seen any published articles stating that, so I can't add a citing. Can that line please be removed. It's a bitter subject for Mr. Armstrong to see that lie still out there.

3) I will not add citing links to my The Life of Luxury site, even though I am not being paid for this. I can reference other sources. We both have serious health issues and are helping each other.

4) Jack also wants to add more to his "Life" section. A new third-party site was built to sell his artwork. - http://artgallery.shrinkstack.com/ The "About" page has wonderful facts about his amazing career. He supplied the content to that site and he has told me the same stories. Can some of these facts be added and cited to that website? I'm just trying to help him since he's not computer savvy.

5) Jack used to have a Wiki page about his unique art style that we created called "Cosmic X" (Cosmic Extensionalism). He doesn't know why it was deleted.

6) Can this "Art & Museum Magazine" (pg 34-37) be used for various sources of his content? https://issuu.com/familyofficeelitemagazine/docs/art-museum-summer_17

7) in the "100 Paintings on Canvas" section, he wants the reference to film biopic" to be removed. That will never happen. Jack does have a role in an upcoming movie "Mirroring Michael Jackson" (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7643430), who Jack knew. I know Kira Madallo Sesay the writer / director. www.imdb.com/name/nm1690608/?ref_=tt_cl_wr_2 Can this be added?

Kira has talked to Jack about doing his film biotic. www.imdb.com/title/tt7117214/?ref_=nm_flmg_prd_1 Can this be added?

A lot of articles, paintings are shown on Jack's own site - www.jackarmstrongartist.com Can that be referenced?

Do you approve of these requests?

@Luxlife:

1) I can change the text to "His paintings are currently for sale between $10 million to $113 million" T

Wikipedia avoids the use of 'currently', because it will become outdated. I suggest "His paintings have been offered for sale at prices of up to $113 million".

2) (The rape case)

The relevant Wikipedia guideline is at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#People accused of crime. We should be careful to avoid any implication that anyone is guilty of criminal acts for which they has not been convicted, and you may have broken this principle with your unsourced claims about the complainant and your claim that the police have lied. The guideline indicates that we can include well-sourced material that relates to public figures, and we source this to reports in the LA Times [1] and a CBS website.[2] There were similar reports in several news outlets, including NBC.[3] I think we should keep this paragraph, but I would welcome other editors' opinions.

3) (The Life of Luxury site)

It is sensible for you to not cite your own website, although this is sometimes permissible, see WP:SELFCITE.

4) (http://artgallery.shrinkstack.com/)

The "About" page at http://artgallery.shrinkstack.com/ links to a page on Armstrong's own website, so it is clearly not an independent source. It could be used for basic biographical information such as his date of birth, but not for anything that could be seen as promotional.

5) ("Cosmic X" (Cosmic Extensionalism))

The article was deleted because it was assessed as not meeting Wikipedia's general notability guideline. This was discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cosmic Extensionalism "X".

6) (Art & Museum Magazine)

This magazine appears to be an acceptable source. However, their article is mainly an interview with Armstrong, and we should not report Armstrong's unsupported statements as facts. At the end of the article it states 'Source of Biographical Data & answers: "Cosmic Dream Machine" www.jackarmstrong.com' , this indicates that the article is not an independent source.

7) (film biopic)

We can include abandoned projects, but this is sourced to IMDb which is considered to be unreliable (see WP:IMDB). We should delete this unless a reliable source is added. In the same way, IMDb is not an acceptable source for the "Mirroring Michael Jackson" film. We should also delete Andy Warhol's reported nickname for Armstrong, which is sourced to IMDb.

) Kira has talked to Jack about doing his film biotic. www.imdb.com/title/tt7117214/?ref_=nm_flmg_prd_1 Can this be added?

No, IMDb is considered unreliable, see WP:IMDB

) A lot of articles, paintings are shown on Jack's own site - www.jackarmstrongartist.com Can that be referenced?

We can add a link to Armstrong's site in an 'External links' section.

Regards, Verbcatcher (talk) 18:54, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To: Verbcatcher Why are redundant Cites 3,4 and 6 allowed? What is the point of listing "a man with no discernible source of income" and how is that contributing anything useful, other than to embarrass him? Can that sentence be removed? Luxlife (talk) 00:15, 13 December 2021 (UTC)Luxlife[reply]

The duplicate references were either a mistake, or someone was trying to make the sourcing appear to be more reliable than it is. I have resolved this. Describing him as "a man with no discernible source of income" gives an insight into his circumstances. However, the LA Times source indicates that this is from an attorney's statement in court papers in relation to an unidentified case, so there is insufficient context to include it. I have deleted the phrase, although another editor may restore it. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:43, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To: Verbcatcher 1) In the "Life" section, please add "and Jean-Michel Basquiat" after the Warhol reference. You can use this source (CNN Middle East) https://arabic.cnn.com/entertainment/video/2014/10/10/v1859-ent-101014-orig-ime-most-expensive-bike

2) In the "Cosmic X" section, the above video can also be used as Mr. Armstrong explains Cosmic X (Extentionalism)

3) In the "100 Paintings on Canvas" section, this PDF link (print magazine) can be used for the (citation needed) http://jackarmstrongartist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Jack_Armstrong_BelAir_Article.pdf

Thanks, Luxlife (talk) 22:56, 14 December 2021 (UTC)Luxlife[reply]

@Luxlife: The CNN Middle East source is a video of Armstrong speaking. As I wrote in connection with the Art & Museum Magazine article discussed above, we should not report Armstrong's unsupported statements as facts.

The PDF of a magazine article on Armstrong's website is a better source, although I am unfamiliar with Bel-Air Magazine. Are you proposing this as a source for the following sentence:

After reportedly destroying all of his original works in 1994, Armstrong vowed to create only 100 works of art on canvas using the Cosmic X style of extreme color, texture and light, with words appearing at different angles in the paint.

The magazine article does not mention the destruction of his earlier works or the Cosmic X style, so it is inadequate for this sentence. Regards, Verbcatcher (talk) 11:15, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To: Verbcatcher 1) Please reference the " ..... vowed to create only 100 works of art ...." with the Bel-Air Magazine (above link). 2) Per Jack, his birthdate is: January 6, 1957. Delete the #1 reference at the top. The "rape case" was a defendant lie and dismissed. 3) In the "Stolen works" section. It is confusing and sounds like it was Jack (car) who had his own art stolen. They were loaned to a seller/broker who had a potential customer. It was not Jack's car in Westchester, Los Angeles. There are many rumors this was a hoax for publicity. Luxlife (talk) 15:36, 16 December 2021 (UTC)Luxlife[reply]

@Luxlife:

1) I have rearranged the sentence to accommodate this source. The convention is that a citation applies back to the beginning of the paragraph or to the previous citation, whichever is later, so I moved the '100 paintings' to the start of the paragraph. Unfortunately this has resulted in somewhat stilted prose.

2) We need a reliable source for his date of birth. The date you give is consistent with the range that I calculated from the CBS source.

As I said above, in my view the current wording comes within the guidance at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#People accused of crime. However, my experience with this issue is limited and I will ask for for other views on this.

3) I don't think the wording suggests that it was Armstrong's car that was stolen, or that it was a publicity stunt. If an intermediary's car was stolen then it still could have been a stunt. Is Westchester is an area that it would be embarrassing for Armstrong to have visited, such as a red light district? Can you suggest an alternative wording? Verbcatcher (talk) 05:40, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To: Verbcatcher Can you please add the following text in Mr. Armstrong's "Cosmic Starship" section: 1) In August 2022, Mr. Armstrong sold his $50 Million Cosmic X Painting titled: Star Key #733 to the Moran family, in exchange for the custom painted Harley Davidson motorcycle. ^[1] 2) Paul Jayson is a well-known and highly respected UK Motorcycle historian, curator and restoration expert. He states, “The Armstrong 'Starship' Harley is simply the finest art motorcycle ever made.” ^[2]

Luxlife (talk) 23:23, 23 August 2022 (UTC)Luxlife[reply]

@Luxlife: Neither of these sources is a reliable source for fine art topics. One is a motorcycle website and the other a small-scale motorcycle dealership. Neither has a Wikipedia article and I see no indication that a recognized art critic is involved in either. The sections on Jack Armstrong read like non-critical rehashes of Armstrong's publicity material. The opening phrase in one article "There are few artists with greater pull on the desire of art collectors than Jack Armstrong" does not stand up to scrutiny and devalues the article. I would expect an article surveying 'The Motorcycle as Art' to mention Grayson Perry's Kenilworth AM1.[4][5]

The Ultimate Motorcycling article is an inadequate source to establish the sale of a painting for $50 million – the business with the check may have been a stunt. However, I think it is sufficient to establish that Cosmic Starship has returned to Armstrong's ownership in exchange for a Cosmic X painting.

We need a better source, and I would like to see a major newspaper such as the Los Angeles Times, or a high-profile contemporary art magazine (with a Wikipedia article). Regards, Verbcatcher (talk) 03:08, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

Request for comment about arrest

Should the article mention that Jack Armstrong has been arrested for rape? Verbcatcher (talk) 05:55, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See the exchanges above. The issues are whether the article complies with the guideline at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#People accused of crime, and whether editorial judgement be used to remove the statement. Verbcatcher (talk) 06:00, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I believe the key issue should be whether Jack Armstrong is a "public figure" or not. If he is, then the information should probably be included. If he is not, then Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#People accused of crime should hold and the information removed. I honestly can't decide, personally, whether I think he would count as a public figure or not, so I will leave that to other responders to the RfC. Fieari (talk) 07:32, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No - I agree with Fieari, it is difficult to determine if he is a public figure. I don't personally believe he fits the definition of "public figure - a public official or any other person pervasively involved in public affairs". He does not seem to fit a "limited purpose public figure, those who have "thrust themselves to the forefront of particular public controversies in order to influence the resolution of the issues involved" If anything I think would qualify as "involuntary public figure" as the result of publicity, even though that person did not want or invite the public attention." So because at best he is an involuntary public figure and I can not find anything showing a conviction "innocent until proven guilty" I would side with caution and not mention this in the article. Tepkunset (talk) 16:35, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No - per BLP. It should have already been removed. This arrest is from 2013 and we still don't know the disposition of the case? Was it dismissed, was he convicted, have there been any updates at all since 2013? I can't find any sources covering this since 2013. An unfounded accusation this old does not belong in a BLP. Remove immediately. Isaidnoway (talk) 14:01, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No – per Tepkunset and Isaidnoway. --GoneIn60 (talk) 16:31, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments. It is clear that there is a consensus for 'no'. I will remove the material and close the RFC. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:08, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Moonstone bag

To:@Pyrrho the Skipper - I was told by the artist his new luxury Moonstone handbag is completed. The Esquire magazine interview was last month, so the wording is in the future. Can the submitted text be reworded to make it past tense and re-posted? Why was the Esquire Magazine - Middle East link removed from the "External Links" section? It is a major media source, so should be allowed. Luxlife (talk) 00:44, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We'll need a reliable source. Luxuryinvestmentmagazine.com is not a reliable source, as it's explicitly stated, MB Media Consulting has always made Publishing and editorial as one of its main communication channels available to the companies that entrust us their communication and their brand.

The Esquire Middle East is better, but it's a brief mention in an interview about something that was being announced for the future. Needs more time and better sourcing. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 02:32, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2022/08/15/the-50-million-v-rod-jack-armstrongs-cosmic-starship-harley/

[2] ttps://www.themotorcyclebroker.co.uk/the-motorcycle-as-art/

[1]

[2]