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Archive 5Archive 6Archive 7Archive 8

Sentence partially supported by the cited source

The following sentence is only partially supported by the cited source: In the 21st century, the Ivorian economy still relies heavily on agriculture, with smallholder cash-crop production predominating.[1]

The source says Cote d'Ivoire is heavily dependent on agriculture and related activities, which engage roughly two-thirds of the population. The source does not use the phrase "cash crops", but it talks about cocoa beans... coffee and palm oil, which are cash crops, so the phrase is supported.

I do not see how the source supports "smallholder" in smallholder cash-crop production predominating.-- Toddy1 (talk) 11:01, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Move to Côte d'Ivoire

Not for nothing but did any of the above editors in the above votes actually look at the relevant data?

Per Google Ngram, Côte d'Ivoire is the WP:COMMON WP:ENGLISH name of the place now and has been for several years. — LlywelynII 23:59, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

The reasoning given by many of the above commenters seemed to be to oppose the move on principle simply because of the government decree, with the assumption that "Ivory Coast" must of course be the most common name. It's arrogant, not supported by the evidence, and exactly the kind of rubbish that we used to see at articles on Chinese topics with Pinyin. It's pretty disheartening to see. Theknightwho (talk) 17:39, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
I suspect the best course of action is not call for a new request to change until July/August, but, in the meantime improve notes e and f and prepare your arguments. Emphasize what weighty news sources like The Economist or academic style guides recommend using it (but find good references). I note the relatively recent move of Kiev → Kyiv might give some insights. --Erp (talk) 03:22, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Just throwing in my two cents having come here on the back of recommending that Turkey be moved to Türkiye - we should respect a country's right to determine their own name. Felixsv7 (talk) 09:16, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
That argument will be needed to be taken up at Wikipedia talk:Article titles, not here. CMD (talk) 09:27, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
We should honestly revive this if possible. AG202 (talk) 13:47, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
Googling Côte d'Ivoire yields about 206,000,000 results, Googling Ivory Coast yields about 167,000,000 results. This might not be expert linguists research or anything, but this is another very simple indicator that Côte d'Ivoire is now the common name as well as the preferred name. 75.164.37.9 (talk) 05:37, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
It's certainly a helpful glistening sign as to which of the two is more popular, but regardless, an ebb back to Côte d'Ivoire will require a discussion vote (proposal? discourse? RFQ? debate? What do they call the voting discussion things here...), as the original flow towards the English name of "Ivory Coast" was the result of one of those. From what I can tell, "Côte d'Ivoire" is omnipresent in governmental websites and academic organizations, but much more droughted in mainstream media, where "Ivory Coast" has more of a presence. Do-Droppy (talk) 13:37, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Côte d'Ivoire". The World Factbook. CIA Directorate of Intelligence. 30 March 2022. Retrieved 16 March 2022.

Traditions

maybe u could add the cultural things they do 79.68.148.4 (talk) 11:50, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Could you condense that question into something more specific? "Cultural" is a big umbrella term that can contain many different drops of ideas in it. Do you mean recreational things that formed in Turkiye, that later dribbled down into other countries? Do-Droppy (talk) 12:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:07, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Requesting for this page to be moved to Côte d'Ivoire on 4/23, 2023

This was opened in April, likely intended as an RM. Since then it has attracted sporadic comments over the months in the style of RMs, although if this was an RM it would have closed long ago, and some editors who are interested in the topic may not have commented given there was no formal RM. Continued sporadic comments seem unlikely to lead to much in any direction, so I am boldly closing this without prejudice to an actual RM (keeping in mind all the previous RMs and discussions of course). CMD (talk) 04:34, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There are some reasons why it should be moved to Côte d'Ivoire:

  • Côte d'Ivoire is more commonly used than Ivory Coast.
  • It's true name is in French.
  • The government of the Republic of the Ivory Coast requested to the international community in 10/1985 that Côte d'Ivoire should be used as the official name of the coastal country in all languages.

Thanks! I wish page could get moved. 108.88.82.1 (talk) 17:12, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

1) Proof? 2) The true name of my country is in English, but you don't see me complaining about it being translated for the French wiki, 3)So? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:32, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
"Ivory Coast or Côte d’Ivoire?" by ECA International and https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Ivory_Coast/Archive_7#Requested_move_26_January_2022 108.88.82.1 (talk) 01:21, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Was there supposed to be a point to this post? Because an article that admits that Ivory Coast's request is rather odd and a link to discussio that decided against your position don't really help your case.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 05:21, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
No it's not. You did not capitalize "Ivory Coast" in the Ngrams seach you linked, which completely invalidates the results. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:55, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
True... if you flip it around and not capitalize côte d'Ivoire you'd get odd results the other way. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:35, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
@Fyunck(click) @Rreagan007 If you compare them fairly, by capitalising both, then Côte d'Ivoire is still in the lead. Theknightwho (talk) 17:51, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
As has been discussed many times before, including a year ago, the WP:COMMONNAME remains Ivory Coast. Sources such as the BBC, CNN, FIFA, and France 24 continue to use Ivory Coast, not Côte d'Ivoire. While the Olympics does use Côte d'Ivoire in an official capacity, sources reporting on it[1][2][3] are still using the English name.
For that reason, as has been the case the last 8 times this was proposed, I oppose this change. Wikipedia's job is not to document things as they officially are, but how they actually are in the modern English-speaking world.
-Asheiou (they/them • talk) 15:49, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
  • Agree: I agree to change Ivory Coast into Côte d'Ivoire because :

. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.215.65.24 (talk) 18:15, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not use official names for article titles, we use the most common name English language name. See WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:53, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

My reasoning: I disagree that "Ivorian" NOT having a link somehow makes the article better. Before I added more, several African & South American country articles linked the demonym to the article with its exact name. Around half the time, it was a redirect to the people (e.g. Peruvian redirects to Peruvians). For countries that don't have an article for the people, the demonym redirects to "Demographics of [country]". (This is before I copied that format for the rest of the African countries.) The Ivorian article has multiple links, letting the reader choose, rather than me dictating by linking to "Demographics of Ivory Coast".   — TARDIS builder✉     •       05:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Y'all can't have it both ways. Either "Côte d'Ivoire" is an English term (as evidenced by it being the title) and it needs an English pronunciation, or it is a French term and it cannot be the title. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:54, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know who is y'all here, but that's the French name. It has nothing do with coats, including the English IPA is beyond silly. Do you want to request a move? Go ahead. I don't agree with your binary but I won't oppose it if there's consensus to move it. Rolando 1208 (talk) 13:06, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
I note Cambridge University Press has a pronunciation guide https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/cote-d-ivoire or to be exact two (UK and US). I would guess that counts as a reliable source. Erp (talk) 03:18, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
In English, it IS pronounced like "coat". That may be poor French, but that's irrelevant.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:12, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Since you keep insisting that it's English, tell me, which English dictionary has the word côte in it? Please, enlighten me. Rolando 1208 (talk) 13:20, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
I'm not insisting that it is. I was against the recent move to this title. But, the move to this title means that "Côte d'Ivoire" is perceived as being an English term now. And the pronunciation like "coat" is how English speakers actually say this name.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:31, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Google translate/converts the title to English...thus for many nothing has changed.....so lets stick whatever you guys pick be in a note. Moxy🍁 17:49, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
If you're from Quebec, I think your input would be greatly appreciated. Otherwise these two might just edit war each other lol. 178.120.67.56 (talk) 19:14, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sure where you get "the move to this title means that "Côte d'Ivoire" is perceived as being an English." The move is under heavy review but even so it was only perceived as being used more often, not that it is English. Do you realize that we have hundreds and hundreds of articles here at spellings that are never used in English media at all? Yet the articles are placed at these titles only because it's at a spelling used in the native land. 100% foreign 0% English. So it just depends here on Wikipedia but it is not etched in stone that it is now an English name just because it's at a particular title. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:25, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
If the term is what is most often used in English, then that makes it the English term for the thing.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 19:27, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
That may be true, but the fact it's at that title does not make it the English term at Wikipedia and never has. Titles are not always placed at the most commonly used English usage at Wikipedia. Many factors go into a title name, No. 1 being consensus. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:41, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
@Fyunck(click) @Khajidha @Rolando 1208 This whole thread is completely wrongheaded: "Côte d'Ivoire" is obviously an English term because it is very easy to find it in English-language text. That's what makes something part of the language in the first place. All of the following are irrelevant:
  1. That it is derived from French, or whether "côte" can be found in an English dictionary.
  2. Whether it should be the title of the article.
  3. Whether it is the most common English term.
We obviously need to give English IPA for it. Theknightwho (talk) 02:27, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
However, the English pronunciation may differ drastically from the French or Ivory Coast pronunciations. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:55, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
@Fyunck(click) Yes, it might. What's your point? Theknightwho (talk) 03:06, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
This was a post about pronunciation and whether to include it. That's my point. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:48, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
@Fyunck(click) I fail to see the relevance of "the English pronunciation may differ drastically from the French or Ivory Coast pronunciations" to that question. We include it regardless. Theknightwho (talk) 04:59, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
Often I see that we don't. I've seen consensus say we should be pronouncing it in the foreign tongue and nothing gets placed for English. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:00, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
@Khajidha exactly, it would be more consistent too. The Paris and France articles, for example, only include the French pronunciation. Rolando 1208 (talk) 12:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
This is a terrible justification for excluding it, because if the term is used in English (which it is), then we should include the English pronunciation. Excluding it only makes sense if it is truly never used in English, which does not apply here, or the term is so widely-known that the pronunciation is unnecessary. The fact that "Paris" and "France" don't give English pronunciations is not relevant, because those are extremely common English words that most people know how to pronounce; and even then, I wouldn't object to us including the pronunciation anyway. Theknightwho (talk) 14:59, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
Also just to follow-up on this; the relevant part of the manual of style is MOS:LEADPRON, which makes the exact same distinction that I did. Theknightwho (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
The French pronunciation is good enough. Easily pronounceable in English, save the R, which I don't mind (it's also common in African French to just not pronounce the last R in certain words, including this one). I don't think French speakers mind either. But English doesn't lack a monophthong O, in the word "for". Or even the word "awe".
And yes it's used in English sources but it's still French. It's composed of: Côte + d' + Ivoire. None of these are considered English, unlike Paris, Brussels, Toulouse, etc. Rolando 1208 (talk) 12:54, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
If it's generally pronounced different in English then the French pronunciation is certainly not good enough! That's silly. We simply source the English pronunciations. I doubt I'll ever use anything but translated Ivory Coast but if I did it gonna be like I'm reading a book today with the term, simply Coat Dvore and I move on. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:41, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Once something is used consistently in English, that form becomes English. Not the parts, the whole thing. And while the sounds used in French are present in English, the fact is that English speakers don't usually pronounce the sequence "Côte d'Ivoire" the French way. We should reflect that.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:49, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Also "for" and "awe" are VERY different sounds in my dialect of English. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:52, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Oh I see. Then the one in "for" the vowel IPA symbol being ɔ. Used consistently huh. Ok, besides dictionaries, is there any video or audio recording where they say 'Coat' d'Ivoire?
. Rolando 1208 (talk) 18:44, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
You mean like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ_-sgpL7ao&t=20s --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 09:42, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Or this one: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/w5K9jm2eqAM --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 09:43, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
@Rolando 1208 Being used in English sources in English running text makes it part of English. Denying that it's part of English, and then using that to claim we shouldn't include the English pronunciation, is bizarre, because it ignores the reality that English-speakers (speaking English) need to know how to say it. Bizarre. Also you're completely wrong on your last point: grande dame and nom de guerre (both in the Oxford English Dictionary) don't magically stop being part of English simply because "grande" and "nom" aren't English words. They're taken as a whole. Theknightwho (talk) 19:27, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
I find it odd that many native speakers of other languages seem to have no qualms about bending, folding, spindling, mutilating, and otherwise modifying words they adopt from English but expect English speakers to maintain the "purity" of words we borrow from them.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 23:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Boy that's true... but I'll bet that's mostly at Wikipedia, with Wikipedia editors. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:15, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
I just wanted to echo Theknightwho's comments. "Côte d'Ivoire" as a term is used by English speakers when they speak English, and it's included in English dictionaries and encyclopedias, so clearly it is an English term. We can debate how commonly it is used in English, but there is really no credible argument that it has not been fully assimilated as a loanword.
English speakers may not say it using the "correct" French pronunciation, but it isn't Wikipedia's role to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. As an English encyclopedia we should inform readers how it is commonly pronounced in the English language. TDL (talk) 03:37, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
It is not "clearly an English term". That is WP:OR. The source we have in the article explicitly says it is French. Is there a source that explicitly says it is English? Station1 (talk) 16:54, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
What part of included in dictionaries of English is confusing you? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:59, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Yes, Côte d'Ivoire is included in an English dictionary. Its verbatim definition is "French name of Ivory Coast". How is that confusing? Station1 (talk) 17:37, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
@Station1 Are you intentionally ignoring the Cambridge Dictionary citation further up the thread which doesn't say that? Stop being obtuse. The fact it's also a French term doesn't prevent it from being an English one, too. Theknightwho (talk) 20:10, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Please read WP:NPA. There's no need for name-calling. Station1 (talk) 00:09, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
??? What personal attack? Theknightwho (talk) 00:13, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Let's add the Cambridge Dictionary as a source for the English pronunciation once full protection expires in a few hours. Theknightwho (talk) 17:20, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
That's a good idea, except as Erp correctly notes below, that source shows the UK and US pronunciations, not the English pronunciation. Station1 (talk) 17:46, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
@Station1 What relevance does that have to anything? The Cambridge Dictionary is an English dictionary. In this link, which you've already been provided with, it literally states "Meaning of Côte d'Ivoire in English" at the top, then gives the UK and US pronunciations. Theknightwho (talk) 20:11, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
It says "Meaning of ... in English" at the top of literally every entry. Look up "auf Wiedersehen" for example. It gives the meaning in English, stating it is "a German expression ...". It does not state the phrase is English. In fact, there is a page of that dictionary titled Foreign words & phrases used in English. That source is fine for citing pronunciation of the phrase in the UK and US, but not for stating the phrase is English. Station1 (talk) 00:09, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
@Station1 It quite literally does state it's English, because it says "Meaning of Côte d'Ivoire in English" (emphasis mine), and gives two (English) pronunciations. Unless you're implying that it's giving UK and US French pronunciations?
Your argument against the source is WP:OR, since you have inferred it, but to argue the point: the fact that they include "Meaning of ... in English" is because they are an English dictionary, and therefore only include English terms. The fact that they include "auf Wiedersehen" (which, again, is easily attestable in English) does not change that fact. Also, the fact they haven't defined "Côte d'Ivoire" as "a French name..." (or similar) undermines your point, even if we do accept that logic. Please learn how language borrowings work. Theknightwho (talk) 00:17, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
They do not "only include English terms". Auf Wiedersehen is a "Foreign ... phrase used in English". Auf Wiedersehen is German. The source you cite says so. It also shows how the "German expression" is pronounced in the UK and the US. It does not specifically say Côte d'Ivoire is French or English, but the source currently in our article does explicitly say it is French. Station1 (talk) 00:54, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
@Station1 They're used in English, as they say - that means they are part of English: it's quite literally in the title of the list. Or are you seriously arguing that "coda", "maestro" and "smorgasbord" aren't English terms? Because those are in that list as well, and I can find all three in numerous English dictionaries, including the OED.
You are engaging in clear WP:OR at this point, aside from the obvious cherrypicking. Theknightwho (talk) 00:58, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Quite the opposite. It is OR to assume every entry in an English dictionary is automatically English, especially when the opposite has been demonstrated. WP:V is a pillar of WP. We have a source that explicitly says Côte d'Ivoire is the "French name of Ivory Coast". Your source is great for the pronunciations of the French name of Ivory Coast. Station1 (talk) 01:21, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
@Station1 It's not original research to take the statement "Meaning of Côte d'Ivoire in English" as stating that it's part of English, because it can't be interpreted any other way. That satisfies WP:V.
On the other hand, your attempt to undermine the source by pointing to a completely unrelated definition is WP:OR, however, because you're trying to synthesise disconnected facts to come to your own conclusion. You've just now engaged in yet more WP:SYNTHESIS by concluding that the Cambridge Dictionary is giving French pronunciations based on the definition of "Côte d'Ivoire" given in a different dictionary. That's aside from the fact that neither of the pronunciations given in the Cambridge Dictionary are even close to the correct French pronunciations.
Even if we accepted your conclusion as true, you've also failed to address the fact that your logic implies that "coda", "maestro" and "smorgasbord" aren't part of English, too.
Quite honestly, I've got better things to do than deal with your case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT over the statement "in English" in the article, and it's become impossible to WP:AGF on your part at this stage. Goodbye. Theknightwho (talk) 01:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
We are repeating ourselves now, but the point is it can be interpreted another way, ie. the meaning is in English, not necessarily the phrase. The example of "auf Wiedersehen" has the same automated standard template at the top as Côte d'Ivoire, but is not English. I never said the Cambridge Dictionary was giving French pronunciations. They are explicitly UK and US pronunciations of the phrase Côte d'Ivoire. It is not a good source as to whether that phrase is French or English, however. We have a different source that is clearer on that point. Station1 (talk) 01:59, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Given you're clearly happy to ignore WP:SYNTHESIS:

  1. Your alternative interpretation of "in English" doesn't work with the list of "Foreign words & phrases used in English", which is clearly stating that those terms are "used in English", which means they are part of English.
  2. If every page says "Meaning of ... in English", finding one edge-case that says the term is a "German expression" does not mean we can conclude that "in English" refers to the meaning, since that interpretation sounds very silly when you apply it to pages like apple. Clearly, it refers to the meaning of the word "apple", as part of the English language. Users don't need to be told that the definition is in English, since that's the part they're expected to be able to understand without assistance.
  3. They give "auf wiedersehen" as an alternative spelling of "auf Wiedersehen", which is not valid in the German language (which always capitalises nouns), so clearly "a German expression" refers to the language of origin, and is not stating that the term is only part of German, which is what you've concluded.
  4. The pronunciations they give (for both terms) only make sense in the context of English, as they use standard English phonemes, some of which don't exist in French or German.
  5. Both are taken from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus, which states that it is an English dictionary.
  6. The fact that another dictionary states that "Côte d'Ivoire" is French does not preclude it being English as well.

Theknightwho (talk) 02:15, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

1. A foreign word used in English is not necessarily part of English. There would be no need to note it as foreign then.
2. Agree. It's a weird and seemingly unnecessary boilerplate phrase. If every entry in this English dictionary is automatically English, as you claim, it's just as silly to have to say apple is an English word as it is to say its meaning is in English.
3. The source says it's a German expression. If I miscapitalize "A tale Of Two cities", it's still English.
4. No, a person from Chicago who speaks intermediate French likely speaks with an American accent discernible to a native French speaker. That doesn't mean he or she isn't speaking French.
5. It is an English dictionary that lists some words it claims are foreign.
6. True, but then we need a source that says equally clearly that it is English. Station1 (talk) 05:12, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
@Station1 You still haven't answered my question: are you claiming "maestro", "coda" and "smorgasbord" aren't part of English too? Because that's a logical extension of your argument. Every argument you are making is only plausible in isolation, but cherrypicking a single, unrelated definition and using that to claim that the dictionary contains non-English terms (even though they don't claim "Côte d'Ivoire" is a foreign term) isn't a good faith interpretation of the source. Theknightwho (talk) 21:02, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Also, this page on pronunciation states "To listen to the word, click on the [speaker] icon for UK English or US English." and this page specifically goes over the pronunciation of "Côte d'Ivoire" in detail with the statement "English pronunciations of Côte d’Ivoire". So yes, they do claim those pronunciations are English. There are other problems with your idea that they're transcribing French/German as spoken by an intermediate French-speaker, but the source is extremely clear about what those pronunciations are. We can easily resolve the issue of the "auf Wiedersehen" definition beginning with "a German expression" by concluding that they're referring to the origin of the expression (even though this still - I repeat - has nothing to do with Côte d'Ivoire), because we have to interpret the source in a reasonable way that doesn't lead to contradictions. Theknightwho (talk) 21:21, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
We shouldn't have to "interpret" a source at all. Because there can be different interpretations, as here. Especially when we have another source that says, in unequivocal terms, Côte d'Ivoire is the "French name of Ivory Coast". Station1 (talk) 05:00, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
@Station1 How is that mutually exclusive with a different dictionary making it very plain that the pronunciation they give is for "Côte d'Ivoire" in English? "Côte d'Ivoire" can be part of French and English, and English can have more than one name for the same thing. You have also been engaging in plenty of source interpretation to try to dismiss it, but the pronunciation page I linked in my previous comment does not need any interpretation, since it makes it very clear that it's English in plain language. You are trying to have your cake and eat it. Theknightwho (talk) 14:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I just wanted to note that the Paris article has the French pronunciation, even though we can easily source the English one. I don't really remember why some editors insisted on that, but the fact that it does will lead others to insist that the same principle should apply to other articles. M.Bitton (talk) 16:13, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@M.Bitton We have both at the moment, which is fine. What I object to is nonsense like trying to claim that the English pronunciation which the source states is English is actually French. Also note MOS:DUALPRON, which states we should give both (with the English first), and MOS:LEADPRON, which makes an exception for terms where the pronunciation is widely-known in English (and even uses Paris as an example), which isn't something that applies here. Theknightwho (talk) 20:31, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
However regarding this, absolutely not. "Coat" d'Ivoire is Franglais at best. And it's not even accurate, the country has nothing to do with coats. Rolando 1208 (talk) 20:44, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
We work on citations, not personal feelings. Theknightwho (talk) 20:48, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
Which citation are you reading that it says it's English and not French? I'm curious. Rolando 1208 (talk) 20:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
Please read the above thread. The Cambridge Dictionary calls it English and gives English pronuncations. No source claims that it is not French, but that's not relevant because words can be part of more than one language at the same time. Theknightwho (talk) 20:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
Alright if you say so. Rolando 1208 (talk) 20:56, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
@Rolando 1208: pronunciations in other languages are what they are. They cannot be "inaccurate" and they don't have to make sense to anyone but those who use them. Some of the Spanish words that were borrowed from Arabic, like Trafalgar for instance, have lost their meaning and changed over time to the point of being completely unintelligible to an Arabic speaker. M.Bitton (talk) 21:58, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
@M.Bitton Not sure if that's a good analogy. Spain currently doesn't have that many Arabic speakers. Côte d'Ivoire is a country where French is the lingua franca. The consensus among the Ivorians was to keep French, I'm sure they had their reasons. Ivory Coast is much better for English speakers, as that is was the French name means in English. If anyone's curious in Spanish we call it Costa de Marfil. I'm sure other languages have their own translation :) Rolando 1208 (talk) 15:35, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
@Rolando 1208: we're talking about the English pronunciation. The Ivorians have no say over it. M.Bitton (talk) 15:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
You're ok with being an English monolingual? Fine by me, it's your choice. It's a very common attitude among native English speakers. I don't expect that to change anytime soon. Cheers mate. Rolando 1208 (talk) 15:43, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
You're wrong on all accounts. M.Bitton (talk) 15:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
@Rolando 1208 This has nothing to do with anyone being monolingual. Bilingual English/French speakers will pronounce "Paris" according to the language they are speaking at the time, and this goes for other words too, like "Côte d'Ivoire". You really don't seem to understand that the same word can exist in multiple languages, and that it will be pronounced according to the phonological constraints of those languages, even when a speaker speaks both languages. Sometimes it might be an imperfect imitation (like "croissant") and sometimes it might be totally different, but they're both still real, and it is not our place to judge what speakers should or should not be doing. I have consistently noticed that you take a prescriptive approach to pronunciation, and seem to think that the native pronunciation is the only true "correct" pronunciation, but that doesn't reflect reality, and it's not how Wikipedia works. Theknightwho (talk) 15:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
@Theknightwho Paris? Sure I can see that. As for the country, I bet you can't find a single French native speaker who pronounces it the English way (coat). They would either say it the French way or they would say "Ivory Coast" possibly with a French accent. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Rolando 1208 (talk) 15:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Again, French native speaker have no say in how a French word is pronounced in English or any other language. M.Bitton (talk) 15:55, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
@Rolando 1208 M.Bitton is correct, and it still doesn't change the fact that I only brought up that people change pronunciation based on the language they're speaking because you made a condescending comment about monolingual English speakers. Your personal feelings are not evidence, and we're not obliged to accept them until proven otherwise. Theknightwho (talk) 15:58, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Also, here's one at 8 seconds in ([4]). Theknightwho (talk) 16:01, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
These are not feelings. It's a fact. It's a French speaking country with a French name. You're not obliged to do anything. But if you make claims you need to provide evidence. Rolando 1208 (talk) 16:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
And we're not discussing its French name. We are discussing one of its English names which is spelled like its French name but not pronounced that way.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:04, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
@Rolando 1208 You're the one making the claim that people don't change pronunciation based on the language they're speaking, which is a widely-observed general phenomenon cross-linguistically, and frankly, it's not even relevant. "I bet" has now turned into "it's a fact", and quite honestly I've got better things to do than deal with this big case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Theknightwho (talk) 16:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
It's not relevant, well that's just great! Then why mention it at all? Now listen, don't get me wrong, I never claimed this for the word Paris. You're right about that, I never said otherwise. But since you mentioned it, I saw the clip, and he pronounced it accurately. He didn't say "coat" and he also didn't pronounce the last R which is very common in African French. Also y'all can stop replying all at the same time. I'm not trying to revert anything. I'm just pointing my disagreement. I just wanna say the only reason the consensus is that it's an English name, it's because y'all said so. You guys decided Ivory Coast is not good enough and wanna be fancy with the French name but paradoxically want to say "coat". I suppose spelling it exactly the French way it's fancy enough? That's how consensus works. The opinion that most people agree with wins. Even if it requires a lot of mental gymnastics. Democracy might be a flawed system but it's the best we have. Rolando 1208 (talk) 16:20, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
No mental gymnastics needed. We are speakimg English, so nothing about French matters at all.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:31, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
@Rolando 1208 He definitely did pronounce it like "coat". You also seem to think this is about what we "want", but all we actually want is to describe how English-speakers say the word in reality, even if you don't like it. There's no paradox or mental gymnastics in that haha. Also, stop with the condescending comments about other commenters, because you're not assuming good faith; people have legitimate reasons for disagreeing with you, and it's got nothing to do with being "fancy" or monolingual. Fundamentally, speakers of one language don't get to dictate how speakers of another should say a word. Theknightwho (talk) 16:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Wrong. I'm arguing in good faith. This is what you guys think will improve the article. I disagree. We have a difference in opinion and that's fine. As for the video, I heard it more than once. It was a monophthong, just like a French speaker would say it, NOT the English OU. It seems like he's from Ghana? In which case it would further prove my point. English speakers who actually visit or live there eventually learn to pronounce accurately, which is not surprising, it's not that difficult to pronounce. But alas Knight, you think pronouncing foreign words with OU (and probably AY/EY too) is of utmost importance! I cannot express the magnitude of my disagreement. But guess what? I have better things to do than to argue with you. You can have all the OUs and EIs that you want. If that's what makes you happy, I won't judge. Cheers mate. Rolando 1208 (talk) 16:00, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
@Rolando 1208 It's not good faith to caricature someone's point of view in a condescending way, or to make baseless assumptions about other contributors. It's just a fast way to end up at WP:ANI. Theknightwho (talk) 16:36, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
Ok @Theknightwho. On what basis? When have I caricatured you or condescended you? Rolando 1208 (talk) 16:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
I see. While the name is French, its pronunciation in English is obviously English (the retained circumflex has no meaning in English). M.Bitton (talk) 20:45, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
  • Hopefully it will be decided to overturn this closure so that this argument can be put to rest. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:07, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
    @Fyunck(click) We’re not going to delete these pronunciations even if the article is moved. Theknightwho (talk) 18:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
    I guess overall that is true. But as a secondary usage it's much less prominent. Should this also be in the Etymology section? Not just a footnote? Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
    I don’t see how the pronunciations are relevant to the etymology, and they wouldn’t really be less prominent since the lede should still give both names, since they’re both common. Theknightwho (talk) 18:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
    Often with place and personal names at Wikipedia you will see a "name" section either separate or within etymology explaining spelling and pronunciation. If the title holds, this article seemed a good candidate. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:04, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
    @Fyunck(click) you know, regardless of which IPAs to include or not. The page move result also looks like it should be non-consensus to me. Oppose has the lead, but only by one vote. I'm not sure on what basis it was closed. Maybe there's something here about policies and precedents that I'm unaware of. Rolando 1208 (talk) 16:40, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
    I think it was simply a poor close and why I opened a move review. I could not figure out the logic of basing it on one google book ngram. It's certainly a tool we use but it is also quite limited in scope and I had never seen someone use it so profoundly in a close. Fyunck(click) (talk) 17:53, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
    It was not just one google book ngram; my support argument was not based on that. Barring a major trajectory change Côte d'Ivoire will become the major English name even if it isn't already. It has been the only name officially since 1986 (38 years) which is longer than the country recognized translated versions (26 years from independence in 1960 to 1986). This stance has held through multiple administrations including a coup d'état (Turkey's request to use Türkiye not Turkey is far more recent and only one administration). Côte d'Ivoire is used in recent English atlases and textbooks as well as in diplomacy. Though I do think the consensus closed a bit early.
    Going back on topic for this discussion, Côte d'Ivoire also, for better or worse, has a common English pronunciation or two that are quite different from the French pronunciations (diplomats working with French speaking countries might be using the French pronunciation even when speaking English). Erp (talk) 02:03, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciation again

Since we seem to keep having this problem: just like the word résumé is pronounced differently in French. American English, and British English, so is Cote d'Ivoire. And we need to show that in the article. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:06, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Résumé is an established word in English. Just like Ivory Coast. Côte and Ivoire are both French words.
Nonetheless, mon ami, let's compromise. What dost thou think of my last edit summary? Rolando 1208 (talk) 10:50, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
We are providing a pronunciation of Côte d'Ivoire as an English name, treated as English words by English-language sources. The fact that these words derive from French does not mean that they are pronounced exactly as French. That's just not how language works.
Regarding your change, I note that the words "coat" and "caught" are pronounced quite differently in most if not all dialects of English. You can't say it's pronounced "caught" when the source says it's pronounced "coat". Kahastok talk 15:42, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
But caught is a better approximation for Côte... Rolando 1208 (talk) 19:18, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
It wouldn't even be the same as K is aspirated [k+h]. And the R is obviously different.
Please self revert. I'm really trying here. Compromising and everything. I even used open O because regular O doesn't exist in English as a monophthong. Rolando 1208 (talk) 19:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Why would someone self-revert the longstanding, correct, and sourced English pronunciation? To be honest most people I run across simply pronounce it coat-di-vore, but man in the street isn't the same kind of source as the Cambridge dictionary (or Websters). Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:58, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
You seem to be trying to show English speakers how it should be pronounced to sound French. But that isn't what this is for. The provided French pronunciation already does that. What we need, and what was there before, is a record of how English speakers actually say it. It doesn't matter if this is "wrong" for French. It is right for English.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 23:31, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
The "coat" pronunciation that those dictionaries show is not universal. Some Anglos do say it with ɔ:
You're trying to marginalise the ɔ: pronunciation, that's not right. 178.120.4.30 (talk) 08:30, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
@Rolando 1208 I know this is you. Please stop. Theknightwho (talk) 02:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Baseless accusation. I have replied to you on my talk page. Rolando 1208 (talk) 07:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
It's not a baseless accusation at all - that same IP range has been removing pronunciations with exactly the same reasoning and edit summaries that you've been making with this account, and has been making the precise same changes that you repeatedly tried to reinstate without any consensus. It is clearly you, and you've been edit-warring on this very talk page over the same threads on your account as well. It's a completely ridiculous situation, and trying to deceive the rest of us is just embarrassing. Theknightwho (talk) 10:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Aren't you a lawyer? Don't you know about presumption of innocence? I already gave you my reasoning as to why I restored that particular IP's edits. You don't give sources for your IPA edits. As an act of good faith, I'm gonna wait a few weeks, let you add the sources as I know this takes time. If you can't find sources for some of them, you can self revert. I know you'll do the right thing, I've seen your other edits. Rolando 1208 (talk) 11:00, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
For full transparency, this was confirmed. Theknightwho (talk) 05:21, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Even after getting me blocked, you can't let it go, can you? Why do you want to expose my IP address so badly? As long as I don't use it to game the system, what's the problem? But no, for you, me getting blocked is not enough. You just have to expose my IP range. This is harassment. Rolando 1208 (talk) 08:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Two things here. First, anyone who clicks your name can see your block log with all the IP ranges from the Sockpuppet investigation. Yes it's easier with the post, but's it's easy anyway. And two, now that you changed the IPs to your handle, outside automated tools can connect your username and IP address in public databases... per WP:LOGGEDOUT. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:58, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Good to know. Though since my IP was already leaked I guess it's fine. I guess the question would be if it was easy, why did Knight feel the need to point it out? Isn't getting blocked punishment enough? But yeah good to know about automated tools, thanks Fyunck. Rolando 1208 (talk) 09:45, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Blocks are not issued as punishments, they are tools to prevent disruption. It should be clear that no IPs have been leaked, many of the IPs were used to post on this public page. Furthermore, no harassment is evidenced, and if there is harassment, it should be discussed at an appropriate forum and not an article talkpage. CMD (talk) 10:02, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Also, I explained why I posted it already: for full transparency; to make it clear it wasn't a "baseless accusation". Rolando has now changed the signatures on most of the comments they left as an IP to give their username, but at the end of the day anyone reading this thread has a right to know what happened here. Theknightwho (talk) 16:28, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
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