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Untitled

Are the Georgians in Iran Muslims or did they retain their Christian religion?

Iranian Georgians are Shia Moslems, not a single Christian among them.^{[citation needed]}

00:52, 17 June 2007 (UTC)~~ Babakexorramdin

Kinebuffalo, it is not a tradition to putr {{Fact}} tags in talk page. Just aska question and I will be glad to answer you. All sources mentioned state that the Iranian georgians are Shiite Georgians and not a single Christian among them. Moreover all anthropological fieldworks testify this statement.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

moved the some expressions-section here as it was not very helpful ...

Sopelea - Fereydoon Shahr

raseak - How are you?

me tsavel chons - I went home.

me meaghors chon ena daysthavlo - I like to learn our language.

Maybe the following is meant:

Sopelea - sopelia - this is a village (alternatively: sopeli - the village).

raseak - rasa iqm? - what are you doing (or how's it going)?

me tsavel chons - me ts'avel chvens - I went (or I am about to go) to our [place].

me meaghors chon ena daysthavlo - me msurs chveni ena dawists'avlo - I like to learn our language.

and, is this article about the language or the people? --Lenthe 30 June 2005 20:46 (UTC)

huh? -- Wapcaplet

I'd like to help this page, but I have absolutely no clue what was intended by these examples. Are these phrases that are spoken differently by Georgian speakers in Iran than in Georgian? CyborgTosser (Only half the battle) 19:18, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes Someone has captured some words and phrases in Fereydani Georgian. The language which is posken in the greater Fereydan region of Iran. I know what he meant; though the second translations above in this page are not totally correct. I can help to improve it, but as said before this page is about the people and not language. Babakexorramdin 20:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Move

I moved the page to "Iranian Georgians" because the previous title suggested that Georgians are foreigners who just live in Iran rather than actual Iranians.Hajji Piruz 19:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gagimarjos, Zende bashi. Of course Iranian Georgians are part and parcels of Iran and their history shows that they -despite their number- have played a cruxcial role in the Iranian statehood and its defence!

babakexorramdin --Babakexorramdin (talk) 01:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

here are the translations:

Sopelea - good spelling is sopeli - = Village, but also called to towns notably to fereydunshahr. raseak - good spelling= Ras Ik= roughly what's up= How are you - me tsavel chons - me ts'avel chvens - I went to our (s) [place]. Chon = chven in Georgian of Georgia me meaghors chon ena daysthavlo - Me miqors (miqvars in Georgian of georgia) chon ena davstavlo= - I like to learn our language. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:41, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

importance?

the Persons who have rated "Iranian Georgians" as a low-rated topic do not know the Iranian history. This article is also one of the better ref.ed articles. Moreover if ethnic groups are high-rated (Azeris and Fars/Persians were!) why not Georgians? Only a person who thinks of Allahverdi Khan, Emamgholi Khan, Manuchehr Khan, Rostam Khan, Shah Abbas,.... defeating the Afghans, conquering India, defense agianst the Ottomans..... as unimportant---> would think Iranin Georgian topic is unimportant. Well if this is their criteria and knowledge, the reliability of ratings of other pages are also questionable. Babakexorramdin 01:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The importance scale is based on how important a certain topic is to a general understanding of Iran, not a detailed understanding. Low is for articles that you dont need to necessarily know about in order to understand Iranian history.Hajji Piruz 06:41, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

for the same reason I said that. If you see that the Kia-Rostami (with all due respect) uis highly rated, then I think an article in which such a key figures and their services to Iran are present deserve better. Babakexorramdin 10:40, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Look at the projects importance scale: Low: The article is not required knowledge for a broad understanding of Iran.Hajji Piruz 16:13, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am not here to repeat myself. If you are the same guy as Pejman/Azerbaijani/ Anonymous/ Mohammed which one guy suggested, there is no need to discuss things with you. But if you are not no offense!Babakexorramdin 18:04, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am Azerbaijani (I had a name change). I'm not going to argue with you about this anymore, but you are preventing the categorization of this article with your POV editing and OR. Your breaking Wikipedia's rules.Hajji Piruz 18:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Azerbaijani you are vandalizing the Wikipedia. I warn you stop your harmful behaviour. You are the reason why it is so difficult to contribute to Wikipedia. A guy like you with obscure agenda tends to divert anything related to Iran, rep. Azerbaijan, etc... having great disrespect towards Iranian ethnic groups other than his!I have nothing against rating. But anything from your hand is unrelaiable because I have great doubts about your level of knowledge Very Sad sad! You had my email so why not be a man and get things right instead of an online vandalizer? Babakexorramdin 19:59, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This isnt about respect or anything, its a simple WikiProject importance rating, it means absolutely nothing. I said I wasnt going to argue about this with you anymore because it really doesnt matter, it means nothing. The WikiProject lable reflects nothing about anything in real life, its just a way to organize things. But for the record, you should read WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:NPA. And Wikipedia is not the place for Iranian nationalism, I know you care about Iran and that your doing this for the benefit of Iran, based on our past discussions, but please be objective here, this encyclopedia is not here be a mouth piece for nationalism, its supposed to be informative. This is why I dislike nationalism, because people fight over the most absurd things instead of the facts, I dont care if you dont want this article not to have a rating or what its rating should be. Do whatever you want with it, I'm not going to argue over something as ridiculous as what WikiProject importance rating an article should have. You even took out the articles quality rating, I dont know why, but now this is another of the many many articles contained in WikiProject Iran thats not categorized. Have a good day (or night).

Oh, and why dont you check to see who created this article Iran-Georgia relations (its under construction, maybe you can help instead of arguing about what rating an article has over here, it could use some pictures for example) and then tell me I dont have enough knowledge about the history between Iranians and Georgians.Hajji Piruz 00:45, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We are not talking about nationalism and whether its good or bad. I simply say that thing about the Safavid emmpire, the battle of fereydunshahr where the Afghans got dfeated (only mentioned here), and the figures such as Allahverdi Khan Undliadze, Emamgholi Khan Undiladze, etc... of of greater importance to understand Iran than (with all due respect) the film-director Kiarostami. As I know in what direction goes the Iran-Georgia Relations article. I wait and then will get involved. I think that they use the entries of Encyclopedia Iranica in it. generally speaking they are good, but there are some mistakes in them. It would be then hard to edit the text due to the wikipedia rules, in them quoting from an already existing source is better than fundamental research. But no problems I'll do my best. regards.

Babakexorramdin 06:29, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I havent so far I'm using another source, but I was also planning on using Iranica as well. Like I said, its underconstruction.Hajji Piruz 13:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

K. Hitchins is the entry in Encyc. Iranic; a good article but makes mistake at some points.Babakexorramdin 01:03, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

the new edits by 67 something and Tirbod

1- I do not understand why are you deleting the whole time that they are twelver shia? Thats a fact. 2- Secondly what are you saying is partly true, but remember that fereydunshahr was not built at that time. It was farah Abad and Behshar and almost all towns with a Carvansarai or a military garrison . If you want to edit something please discuss it first. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Babakexorramdin, I delete the statement about all Georgians being Shia becasue it is undocumented lacks proper citation,and statistics, and it is untrue. Many of Georgians relocated by Shah Abbas I were Jewish, and there are many who still practice the religion of their heritage, after several violent attemtes in Safavid and Qajar period. Look at Comprehensive History of the Jews of Iran: The Outset of the Diaspora, by Dr.Habib Levy ISBN-10: 1568590865 Look for the word Farhabad, and you will find extensive information on Georgians Jews of Farahabad who are up to today a part of Persian Jewry. Thank You, (Tirbod (talk) 21:45, 25 November 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Well as I saw your editing records you were too busy with Shahmirzad, where a lot of Bahai live. You might be told that there are Bahais among Iranian Georgians. Well there were some rumors that some families in the town of Afus were Bahai, but they themselves deny that and today they act as twelver shias.

I know a japanese paper which says that Shah Abbas also has relocated jews. I do not know whether these jews were Georgians or Tats. Even if they were there are today no Georgian jews in Iran and I am not aware if there has ever been a Jewish georgian community in Iran. We know that in the 17th century there were Shia and Orthodox Chiristian Georgian communities in Iran. Now there are only Shiite Georgians in Iran. This is very well researched and documented. Almost all modern sources I told cite that. Only Sharshenidze from Georgia wrote that Fereydani Georgians retain their Christian belief, but I wonder if he himself has had done any fieldworks in fereydan. Moreover it is said that he is mistranslated and misinterpreted. He simply said that some of their habits stems back from the time of their Christian ancestors, like burning candles etc... but we all know that also shiite Moslems burn candles. Conclusively: We know only that there were Shiite and Christian Georgians. But now there are only Shiite Georgians. moreover we have no strong evidences that the Fereydanis have been settled as Christians in the area but we have some evidences that Christian Georgians once lived in Esfahan, Mazandaran and between Shiraz and Esfahan. Those Christians probably became Fars/ mazandarani when they converted to islam. Send me an email and I will send you some papers/info. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 22:00, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Babakexorramdin, This, has nothing to do with Bahai's or Japenese. This is History, and for publishing the truth one has to stick to scientfic method of research, without religous or any other kind of bias. The source I introduced is a good source Comprehensive History of the Jews of Iran: The Outset of the Diaspora, by Dr.Habib Levy page 310.But if someone has difficulty to look at an international scholorly work, there are Iranian sources available also Tarikh Do hezar saleh Sariby Hossein Islami page 273, which is not Japense, or Bahai and it is Iranian, and published in 1372 Iranian calender. Since you have researched this subject I would be intrested to communicate with you regarding this matter. Thanks, (67.164.219.2 (talk) 22:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Dear Tirbod I have not read Levy´s book and i cannot say that it is reliable or not. I have researched this issue both by historical documents, official documents, and fieldwork. there are no jews among georgians and there are no stories which tell us that they were in a certain point of time. As I told you there were some jews from Shirvan relocated to mazandaran, but they were Tat and not Georgian. In any case at th present we have only Shia Georgians in Iran. This is a hard fact, and if you say my methods are nit scientific you are insulting all my Iranian georgian colleagues too. Moreover (if true what you are saying) it is very arrogant that Habib Levy as an outsider contest the ethnic history of a living ethnic group, which has preserved its traditions and memoriues very well.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 22:26, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

something else: I do not like your statement that he is not bahai or japanese. A bahai can be Iranian (and often is) and a jew can be Iranian too. Moreover I have no problem with the backgrounds of authoors as long as they make sense and honsetly too many of them do not make sense at all. e.g. Brenda Shaffer. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 22:31, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Babakexorramdin, There are two sources already represented, but you are irrationaly persisting that all Gerogians are of a certian religon. Furthurmore there are several valubale historical works that falisfy your claim of all Georgian being Shia. There are more sources available. Please Look up The Politics of Trade in Safavid Iran: Silk for Silver, 1600-1730 By Rudolph P. Matthee page 44. Here is a link to the online copy of this book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=5U0yECMV--wC&printsec=frontcover&sig=tA7-kTWCw61rKOxYHsauyi5ROck#PPA44,M1

Furthur persistance in ignoring such numerus sources, and publishing untrue statement is not something that someone intrested in history and truth would insist on. Thank you for your consideration, (67.164.219.2 (talk) 23:16, 25 November 2007 (UTC))[reply]

I think you do not understand it. We are here dealing with the description of a LIVING ethnic community and they are Shia Moslems and not jewsih. Do you understand that? Yes they were in the past Zoroastrian and Pagan too. So what? The contemporary Georgian community of Iran is Shia Moslem. If you (still) have Iranian passport go and examine it yourself.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Now you should give me citation with page number from Rudolph mathee in which it is stated that the contemporary Iranian georgian community is not Shia and there exists jews among them. I doubt it. I have his email and will discuss it with him if he says such a thing. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:32, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There has been 3 sources mentioned and even a link to one source. But there is no sign of scientfic skepticism in you. It makes me awfuly sorry to see someone can ignore hard facts. There is overwhelming amount of information against the claim that all Iranian Georgians are Shia, and there is no intrest shown by you to review the facts. It will be proper if some more time will be spent, reviewing the sources, and write material that reflects the truth, not personal bias of the writer. Such unsubstantial material will not last long, and if it dose it is only source misleading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.219.2 (talk) 23:58, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I told you give a quote with page number where he says that there are Georgian jews in Iran. And you as a non-Iranian and non-ethnologist are very weak visa vis a LIVING Iranian Georgian in bringing evidences. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 00:06, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

Iranian Georgians are an ethnic group living in Iran. Today's Georgia was a part of Safavid empire in 17th century and Shah Abbas I relocated Georgians as part of his programs to develope industrial economy, strengthen the military and populate new built cities in various places in Persia including Behshahr and Farahabad in Sari County. Iranian Georgians, were Muslim, Christian,and Jews, who many converted to Twelver Shia Islam, by force or voluntarily in Safavid era. Although the contemporary living Iranian georgian community is Iranian Georgians, were Muslim, Christian,and Jews, who many converted to Twelver Shia Islam, by force or voluntarily Twelver Shia Moslem. ^[1], ^[2], ^[3]

just see the way they edit. Such a hatred. I now think you are Israeli agents with an agenda because you declined the oppurtunity to quote and settle the issue. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 00:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Muliani, S. (2001) Jaygah-e Gorjiha dar Tarikh va Farhang va Tammadon-e Iran. Esfahan: Yekta [ The Georgians’ position in the Iranian history and civilization]
^ Rahimi, M.M. (2001) Gorjiha-ye Iran; Fereydunshahr. Esfahan: Yekta [The Georgians of Iran; Fereydunshahr]
^ Sepiani, M. (1980) Iranian-e Gorji. Esfahan: Arash [Georgian Iranians]

To Noah Saltzman : your support of vandalism

your colleague is spaming and vandalizng Iranian pages. Your support for him makes you as guilty as him. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 00:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User_talk:Noah_Salzman" --Babakexorramdin (talk) 00:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Babakexorramdin There is no doubt that you are an illitarte, and bigot person. This name calling and attacking people in this manner adds to your academic dishonesty and slanted opinion. I am sorry to see there are untruthful people like you publishing information on Gerogians of Iran. (67.164.219.2 (talk) 00:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)).[reply]

thank you for your honest comments. this is how Iranians get threated by people of your countries on a daily basis. BTW I never calimed to be litterate. Yes I am illiterate. Thank you.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 00:55, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Babakexorramdin, Is this how you argue: Although some suspicious figure argue that there are Georgian Jews in disguise among Iranian Georgians (see talk page) they were unable to provide scientiphic quotes and citations. Although the contemporary LIVING Iranian Georgian community is Twelver Shia Moslem. All Georgian Iranians all over Iran are twelver Shia Moslems and there is no other Georgian community of any other faith anywhere in Iran. Nobody said anything about disgues among Iranian Gerogians. There are Iranian georgians who are muslim, and there some who are jewsish. The Jewish Gerogians are a part of bigger Iranian Jewish community in Iran who are a recognized community even by Iranian goverment, and have a represtetive in Majlis of Iran. You seem to be very anxious about anybody esle besises moslems being among Gerogians which is very questionable. Please help make a prestigous article that covers all the historical facts. I will add information with qoutation. Please act properly and do not distort ingformation or try to scare people off with act of name calling and personal attacks. (67.164.219.2 (talk) 00:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC))[reply]

This is what I know There are no Georgian jews in Iran.There were once brought jews from historical Georgia to mazandaran (and probably some other places) true. However these people were not categorized as Georgians. the sources clearly distinguishes between 1- Armenians 2- Georgians and 3- Jews. Suggesting that the jews were not georgians but probably Tat (mountain jews). Ok? even if there existed once hypthetically georgian jews in Iran they are assimilated into Moslem persians/Mazandaranis. No one is remained jewish. I would invite you come with me in Iran in search of georgian jews. I really mean it. But belive me I did years of field work and I have not found one. All Iranian Georgians were Shia Moslems. But I tell you I welcome you to come with me and do fieldwork in the search of georgian jews in Iran.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 00:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BTW for further discussion send me an email the same ID in yahoo. thanks--Babakexorramdin (talk) 00:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since I was called out by name I will reply: as I said on my talk page I was simply correcting spelling without regard or attention to the politics and edit warring that was already in progress. I will take this moment to kindly remind the participants in this discussion to remain civil and not make personal attacks. Our (communal) ability to reach a consensus will be more enjoyable if those guidelines are respected. Peace. —Noah 20:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

there were no name callings. Did I wanted to go on with your coleague then I was not ashamed to use some juicy name callings. I had no reason to call you names, just warned you do not get involved with the mess your colleague caused.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 00

06, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

last edit

I think this whould do it and makes everyone happy. Aany more concessions mean lies and I am not going to write wrong information. This should stay: " Iranian Georgians are an ethnic group living in Iran. Today's Georgia was a part of Safavid empire in 17th century and Shah Abbas I relocated Georgians as part of his programs to develop industrial economy, strengthen the military and populate new built cities in various places in Persia including Behshahr and Farahabad in Sari County. in the 17th century the Iranian Georgians were Moslems and Christians. There were also Jewish migrants from historical Georgia, but there is no certainty about their ethnic origins. The contemporary living Iranian Georgian community is exlusively Twelver Shia Moslem. All Georgian Iranians all over Iran are twelver Shia Moslems and there is no other Georgian community of any other faith anywhere in Iran.[1], [2], [3]" --Babakexorramdin (talk) 01:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

R. Mathee source

dear Tirbod, I respect R. Mathee . in fact he has been a great teacher to me. but please remember that he is a historian and not an ethnologist. So I wont argue about his historical statements. I do not argue that there were no jews among the migrants but I need proofs that these jews were of georgian ethnicity like the Georgian jews in kutaisi for example. that is for history and interesting. But for the Living community of Iranian georgians the only method to determine is 1- field work (2- in addition to official statistics) and nothing mentiones georgian jews in Iran.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 01:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just curious. Was this comment on the Mashhad talk page written by you? "[edit] Propaganda The destruction of the city's Jewish population is terribly underplayed and violates NPOV. The Jews were subjected to a horrific pogrom, converted by force, then fled into exile. (How they got away is an epic story and would make a fascinating Hollywood tale, but perhaps isn't for this specific article.) I suggest that this POV tag remain until the article is fixed.68.5.64.178 20:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)" maybe you like it but the story of jadidi islamized jews is true. I did researched it somehow. not only in mashhad but also in some other cities of iran. The hollywood thing however makes it anti-Iranianist. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 01:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd basically agree with Babakexorramdin. The wave of deportation might well have affected also Jews, Armenians, and other ethnicities living in Georgia because the region of Kakheti itself was so multiethnic. But all this is just a matter of conjecture. All we know for sure is that modern Iranian Georgians are overwhelmingly Shia Muslim. The fact that they retain some remanants of Christian traditions is not surprising at all. Georgian mountaineers of Svaneti and Khevsureti have been Christians for over a millennia, but numerous pagan pre-Christian beliefs have survived.--Kober^Talk 05:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

His problem is not elements of Christianity. Even Persians have some elements from it see Persian poems talking about a light on the cross, the breath of the christ etc... burning candles etc... But the satement that there are Iranian georgians today who are jewish is simply wrong. The only non-Shia religion which should be taken into consideration is Bahai amonung the allegdely Bahai families in Afus.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:01, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There was a big group of Gerogian Jews (estmimated around 8000) from the city of Zakem who immigrated to Iran by Shah abbas I invitation. There is elaborated account of this event. These people helped Shah Abbas I who himself was from a Gerogian mother from Mazandaran. They helped him against Shah Tahmoorth and Shah made them his Shah-Sevens, and gave them a nice place in Farahabad. They were in Silk business for a long time and they never converted to Islam unlike the rest of Georgians. These people are a part of Iranian Jewish community now. They lived in Mazandaan until the communties started immigrating to Tehran and abroad. Look up:Comprehensive History of the Jews of Iran: The Outset of the Diaspora, by Dr.Habib Levy , and sevral other sources are available aslo. I understand that alot of Gerogians converted to Islam and they are proud of it and they like to announce thier religon on wikipedia. But it is unfair, and far from truth to ignore a big community. You mentioned they were from a diffrent ethnicity, thats ture.Jews are ethnicity group, Iranian jews, Morrocan Jews,Iraqi Jews and finaly Georgian Jews. They were Jewish and from Jewish stock, but they were Georgian and there is still a Georgian jewish community in Gerogia. I understand that religion unlike other place is not a personal matter in Iran. But unlike Bahais Jews are recognized by Iranian goverment and they are respected. Even muslim trace back their religion to religion of Abraham and Moses. Plus I am pretty sure nobody will persecute you and your community becasue there were Georgian Jews who immigrated to Iran along the rest of Georgians who were relocated to Iran. You are clearly not Jewish and nobody would assume you are. But please give the other people the right to live and preserve their identity as you do. I am sure your religous leader would tell you the same thing.(67.164.219.2 (talk) 21:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Some corrections: 8000 is not a big group. There were approximately 300 000 Georgians relocated. 2- It is Zegem and not Zakem. 3-Shahsevans are now all Moslems, they live now in different places in Iran. Speak Turkic and are Shia Moslems. 3- This is Tahmures which in Georgian is pronounced Teimuraz. If your spellings are from levy, it clearly shows his lack of knowledge or better said his lack of respect that he does not intentionally write the truth as he has Iranian roots himself.

Moreover the Georgian ethncity of these jews are still unclear to me. In the Caucasus there are two kinds of jews 1- mountain jews who speak a Farsi-related language called tat and 2- Georgian jews. From the description of the locus of their homeland you give it is obvious that they were mountain jews, because the Georgian jews lived further West in Kutaisi.

But now here is my problem. I cannot escape from the impression that you are an anti-Iranianist zionist. Your bigotry is enormous. You say my religious leader. are you sure that I am a practizing religious person? Are you sure that I am political and are you sure that I follow a certain person as religious leader? All are your prejudices. Not surprizingly because most of your type hate Iranians blindly.

Iranians, Georgians or not do not hate their jewish compatriots. In fact the Iranian jews are part of the Iranian nation. It is true that too many now deny their roots and cheer for israel and bush to bomb Iranians, but many dont and we should respect it. It were Cyrus the great and Xerxes who rescued the Jews. And funnily these were the Anti-Iranianist jewish lobby who insulted him by the movie 300. And I tell you this I would like to invistigate this issue. In fact i would love to discover new facts but- I do not like your finger pointing like oh oh bad Georgian moslems forced the jews changed their religion and now they are denied their existence. 2 I still should meet an Iranian Jew who claims to be Georgian. I still have no reasons to accept that there were/ are Georgian jews in Iran. All Georgians in Iran are Shiite Moslems. This is an ethnological fact and a very solid fact. I am not proud of that nor traumatic about that, simply this is a hard hard fact.

You have read something but simply do not know as much as others know in this subject. You are too arrogant that you think the others are dumb and ignorant and you (the true ignoorant) know it better. By false assertions even you disrespected valuable and respected historiansd such as R. Mathee. Please do not be so racist and hatred. let your racism and hatred fare away. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 00:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Babakexorramdin, I did not mean to make you upset in anyway. I just assumed you are a religous person becasue the passion you showed on the subject of religion so I asked you to check the issue with the religous authorities you respect. But, your relgous beliefs are your personal matter, and none of concerns. I think your assumption and accusation about me is totaly irrelevant to our discussion, and just for your information mostly wrong. I like Iranians and Georgians and every human who has dignity. Nevertheless, thank you for the great information on Iranian Georgians. I personaly appriciate your efforts to publish this information. I will check the page reguraly for updates. Good Luck on your researchs and publication. (67.164.219.2 (talk) 06:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC))[reply]

My emphasis on religion is purely ethnologic. My only concern is to give true information.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Georgian-Iranians

I think it would be best if this article would be moved to Georgian-Iranians because they are Iranians of Georgian descent rather than Georgians of Iranian descent. Also, most articles have the nationality the group belongs to at the end (e.g. Mexican Americans, Armenian-Iranians, Irish Canadian etc.) Parthian Scribe 02:14, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Parthian Scribe, he is correct. Georgian-Iranian would be the correct term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.188.108 (talk) 15:17, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Organization and coherence of writing

The language of this article is unclear in some parts. I made a couple of minor changes to improve the language but left the ideas intact. The wording like "Regardless of their ethnicity" for example was unnecessary because there was nothing about ethnicity in the prior sentences.(24.130.188.108 (talk) 15:38, 8 December 2008 (UTC))[reply]

It was written on purpose like that. The thing is that while ago an uniformed POV pusher came up and claimed that there were Jews and Muslims among the relocated Georgians. The thing was that his source said that among the relocated persons from Georgia (and neighborhood) in the Caucasus were also jews and Moslems. It did not say that these were Georgian Muslims or Georgian Jews. It is also very unlikely. Only for the sake of compromise to that annoying person the sentence was made like that. What is your solution for this problem? While it is very probable that there wer georgian Muslims among them, it seems not probable that there were Georgian jews (as an ethnic group) among them. It is more probable that the Jewish part was composed of the Tat speaking Jews. What should we do?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:54, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I read your discussion on this page. There are a few cases mentioned and they are clear in using the term "Georgian Jews." Do you have any sources that negates this fact? Regarding your speculations you can conduct a research, but as you well know new research can not be published here. It appears the Jewish community was relocated to Farahabad in Mazandaran, while others were settled in other areas. you can indicate that various communities were settled in different locations. Please, leave the phrasing as is until you find published scholarship negating what is mentioned. In any case please do not compromise the professional language, and language of the article (136.152.153.225 (talk) 01:06, 9 December 2008 (UTC)).[reply]

By the way I have tried to acquire copies of sources 2,3, and 4 from University of California libraries, and also worldcat.org, but I could not. Would you please help me to get a hold of a copy of these books. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.152.153.225 (talk) 01:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

which books? by the way Mathee, indeed an honorable historian, is not an ethnologist or an expert on the Caucasus. He probably meant Jews from Georgia(n) domain. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 02:00, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are no anthropological studies or ethnology on this community to my knowledge. I should remind you this is pre-modern era, so respectable historical sources should not be ignored. There are primary sources from 15th century like Kitbi Anusi of Babi Lotf, and Fazli Khuzani that describes the conditions of the Georgian Jewish community of Farahabad in great details. Please look at Aptin Khanbaghi (2006)The Fire, the Star and the Cross: Minority Religions in Medieval and Early. London & New YorkIB Tauris. ISBN 1845110560, pp. 107 and 113. This book also explicitly mentions the community as Georgian Jews. I am interested to see published "ethnological" scholarship that you mentioned. There is way so much evidence on this historical fact so it is proper to discuss this community as Georgian Jews.

By the way are you aware how many Georgian communities live in Iran currently?

Also I have difficulty locating these books mentioned as reference:

Muliani, S. (2001) Jaygah-e Gorjiha dar Tarikh va Farhang va Tammadon-e Iran. Esfahan: Yekta [The Georgians’ position in the Iranian history and civilization]
^ Rahimi, M.M. (2001) Gorjiha-ye Iran; Fereydunshahr. Esfahan: Yekta [The Georgians of Iran; Fereydunshahr]
^ Sepiani, M. (1980) Iranian-e Gorji. Esfahan: Arash [Georgian Iranians]

I checked a few libraries and library search engines but these books are non-existing. Do you know how can I access these books? ca you help me find them? (24.130.188.108 (talk) 04:12, 9 December 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Well there are some studies done. Those by Georgians from Georgia is often biased. Those by Iranian Georgians themselves are more fair. Rahimi, Sepiani and Muliani are Iranian Georgians. Their books are available in Iran and I have been told thaere are some copies elseweher, notably in Georgia. I doubt that these books are to be get in the USA. USA has posed a scientific embargo on Iran. No exchanges of scientific material is (offcially) allowed. After the detention of the Iranian scientists who wanted to visit a conference in California, also Iran has stopped to exchange with the USA things (officially). There is an entry in Encyclopedia Iranica about Iranian Georgians and if you search the journals online you may find some good articles. Surely I can help you to find them, but do you read and understand Persian? A reletive of mine has them all. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:47, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it 100% definite that Fereydanis/Iranian Georgians descend from Kakhetians/Kartlians?

Hello,

Is it 100% established that Iranian Georgians primarily descend from these two groups? I was reading some further works by Rezvani (Rezvani, Babak (2008)'The Islamization and Ethnogenesis of the Fereydani Georgians', Nationalities papers. Publisher: Routledge) and he cites the probability that they could be the descendants of Georgians from northern area's of Georgia, based upon several historical sources and surnames amongst Iranian Georgians. Any take on this? Bests - LouisAragon (talk) 01:50, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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iranian georgians is not correct

iranis kartvelebi means georgians of iran not iranian georgians — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miladlachinani0095 (talk • contribs) 07:57, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Muliani, S. (2001) Jaygah-e Gorjiha dar Tarikh va Farhang va Tammadon-e Iran. Esfahan: Yekta [ The Georgians’ position in the Iranian history and civilization]

[2] Rahimi, M.M. (2001) Gorjiha-ye Iran; Fereydunshahr. Esfahan: Yekta [The Georgians of Iran; Fereydunshahr]

[3] Sepiani, M. (1980) Iranian-e Gorji. Esfahan: Arash [Georgian Iranians]

[1]

[2]

[3]