Talk:Industrial school (Great Britain)

Comments

Could someone add some info as to what these schools were? KrisW6 14:52, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

"The Irish industrial schools, which were funded by the state and operated by Catholic religious orders. Most of the inmates weren't orphans but rather kids (of both sexes) whose parents were too poor to care for them. They were beaten, starved, and dressed in rags; many were sexually abused. Reports of unexplained deaths and so on were dismissed by public officials. The industrial schools began to close in the late 1960s; in 1999, after several media exposйs, the Irish government apologized to the former inmates. Later the Catholic church agreed to pay 100 million pounds to sexual abuse victims. The best examination to date is "Suffer the Little Children: The Inside Story of Ireland's Industrial Schools" by Mary Raftery and Eoin O'Sullivan (1999).". Source: [| The Straight Dope]

I have now added the conclusions of the Commission on Child Abuse. There are 43, of which 42 refer to the industrial schools. I removed some small pieces which were not relevant, but the rest stands up by itself as the best possible description of the system and what it meant to those imprisoned within it (the staff appear to have been as much imprisoned as the pupils; after all demons are prisoners in hell). I have also included an acceptably POV remark. I defy anyone to read the conclusions and challenge the remark. I have also included reference to the Commission's frustrated work on vaccine trialsMuinchille1 (talk) 14:37, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

United States

The United States had, at least in the past, industrial schools. Should there be another section added or a seperate article? Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 20:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

And also industrial schools in Hong Kong, see zh:工業學校 --Quest for Truth (talk) 20:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

If the term had the same meaning as used in this article, then I think it should be dealt with here. RashersTierney (talk) 21:01, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

On reflection, it might be better if most of the material here was moved to a new page; Industrial Schools in Ireland. A synopsis should of coarse be left here, but as the current scandal in Ireland rolls on, more material is bound to be entered, overwhelming entries from other countries and making this article even more skewed towards the Irish perspective. RashersTierney (talk) 01:02, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Industrial Schools in Ireland

Formally proposing the creation of an article with the above title. It would consist of matters relating to industrial schools in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Most of the material from this (Industrial School) article would be moved there, leaving an article here that dealt with Industrial Schools worldwide in a more balanced way vis a vis different regions. Comments please. RashersTierney (talk) 08:06, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I have started the above article. So far it is just a cut and paste of all material here relating to Ireland, (which is 90% of the content of this article). Just letting other eds. know that this article will need to be drastically reduced to reflect the global nature of the subject, and both articles require substantial editing to make them encyclopaedic . RashersTierney (talk) 23:42, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Removal of material

You have removed the conclusions of the Ryan Report (I can think of no better description of the schools on the basis that these are copyright material; they are not, they are in the public domain, and indeed are meant to be copied. I have reinstated them. Perhaps you would like to transfer them to your "industrial schools in Ireland" article?--Muinchille1 (talk) 08:37, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Thinking about it I disagree with the whole idea of a separate article for industrial schools in Ireland. The fact is that industrial schools outside Ireland were unpleasant, but are not as significant or important as the Irish schools. To my mind their should be an "Industrial schools" article, dealing with such things in Ireland, and an "Industrial Schools elsewhere" article either included as a subheading in the Irish article, or separated in their own article. Does anyone have a link to the Welsh care homes scandals from the seventies and the Kincora Boys Home in the North which could be used to give real context to the article.--Muinchille1 (talk) 08:47, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Two points. I think you are factually incorrect regarding the copyright status of the 'Ryan Report', notwithstanding the information in it being freely available. Secondly, the material copied here is readily accessible via links and so its inclusion to an excessive degree adds nothing, and in fact inhibits the addition of further relevant material. RashersTierney (talk) 12:19, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I cannot see where the Ryan Report asserts copyright. I think it is probably worthwhile to condense what was put in, but what to leave out? The litany itself has force. Perhaps cut it down, but to leave a page on industrial schools without a proper discussion of their use in Ireland is very wrong. We have let silence stand for the wounded for quite long enough here.--Muinchille1 (talk) 12:13, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi Muinchille1. Copyright law is extremely complicated, especially when it comes to 'Official' publications. There is no requirement for a document to be explicitly marked as such in order for it to be covered. I agree that this article should tell the story of IS's in Ireland, but as a sub section The main article should be elsewhere, as I have suggested. It is surprising that this article has not so far been tagged as copyvio, and thus subject to possible deletion. Any information here should be summarised in accordance with WP:MOS. For more on copyright and Wikipedia see Wikipedia:FAQ/Copyright.

pre. unsigned in error RashersTierney (talk) 20:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

The issue of copright is one that is important, as Wikipedia makes clear, so we must be careful not to overquote sources just in case. As well as Industrial Schools in Ireland there are also articles on St Joseph's Industrial School, Letterfrack, Artane Industrial school and Ferryhouse (there may be more that I've missed). I started the first two, citing the Ryan report as needed and trying not to quote too much from it for copyright reasons. There's still a lot to be done (the articles don't go into the scandals much yet, but I'll start sections on those. Autarch (talk) 19:44, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Copy-and-paste and copyright are serious issues, but there is also another thing to consider: this is an article on industrial schools in general, and it's already tagged for not representing a worldwide view. The Ryan report is dealt with in detail in its own article. It does not need any more than a mention in this particular article. I have reverted to RashersTierney's edit accordingly. Scolaire (talk) 06:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Start over

There is little here outside the lead. We only have references for ENG, SCO and EI and a couple of anecdotes. Start over- if it is EI specific it needs to lie in that article. No one has visited since 2009. I am sure there is something we can rescue but we need references first. --ClemRutter (talk) 12:01, 19 March 2017 (UTC)