Talk:Ikeda school massacre

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5th deadliest mass killing in modern Japanese history

This article states that the Osaka School Massacre is the 3rd deadliest mass killing modern Japans history behind the Tokyo Sarin Gas attack and the Sagamihara stabbings.

However there are two mass killings this page does not take into account. The first is the Myojo 56 building fire. An unsolved arson attack that left 44 people dead. https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Myojo_56_building_fire

The second being another arson attack in an Osaka movie theater that left at least 15 dead. Oddly enough, this one doesn't even have a Wikipedia article. I think it deserves one despite the limited information on it. http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/10/01/fire-at-japanese-adult-video-theater-kills-15.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graylandertagger (talk • contribs) 18:36, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No objections. Alright. I edited it. Speak if you want to change anything. As for the Osaka Movie Theater fire, I wish I could do an article on it, but I don't know how. Anybody willing to give it a shot? Graylandertagger (talk) 23:09, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There has been yet another attack worse than this one since the last time this page was updated. https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire I just wonder the merits of listing all of these attacks as they have begun to dwarf the other content in the article and made it harder to make a clear point in the next sentence. If this section is about the aftermath, it might be good to keep this section focused on the situation at the time, eg. "At the time it was the X deadliest mass killing in Japan and the first involving a school, this lead to..."2400:4050:A201:6100:D98A:BDC3:F128:D63F (talk) 07:26, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Undiscussed page moves

Since being created in 2005, this article has been known as the Osaka school massacre. On 21 June 2023, user BlueGuide7551 moved this article to Ikeda Elementary school stabbing and then to Ikeda Elementary School stabbing. This move was reverted on 8 February 2024, by user Dekimasu with the comments: "Revert undiscussed move (WP:RMUM): rv to previous title; no use of this name in English, and not recognizable by this name", followed by a request to use the WP:RM process. So I am both surprised and disappointed that user Swinub has now moved this article to Ikeda school massacre, with the comment that "More sources refer to it as the "Ikeda school massacre". Naming the event after the prefecture rather than the city doesn't make sense." The naming criteria for article titles does not include a requirement that the locations used make senses, rather that the sources use a recognizable common name. Reading the sources used in the article, I have the impression that the prefecture name, Osaka, is used by more sourced and is more recognizable to the English speaking reader. A Google search also returns more hits using "Osaka school massacre" than "Ikeda school massacre", other search variations, such as "Ikeda elementary school stabbings" also return significant results. However, this Wikipedia article is the first item returned in these result, suggesting that Wikipedia's naming itself influences what results are returned. I also thinks this move overlooks the fact that the Ikeda Elementary School is associated with Osaka Kyoiku University, so the name "Osaka" could refer to the university, not just the prefecture.

@Swinub: I would be interested to know what sources you consulted to conclude that Ikeda school massacre is used by more sources than Osaka school massacre, because when I plug either term into a Google Search, I get "Osaka school massacre" being returned as the title that Google recognizes. Also, if you had checked the sources used in the article, you would have found that many of them are either dead or archived references, so how did you conclude that more sources use the name "Ikeda", rather than "Osaka"?

As this is the second time this article has been boldly moved from Osaka school massacre, without discussion, I consider it to be a controversial move to move it back, and that needs to be discussed. But before I make a proposal to revert, again, to the original title, I think it is prudent to give others an opportunity to comment. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 19:36, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I should have mentioned it here first, I apologize.

If you Google "Osaka school massacre", the results are murderpedia.org, a podcast from 2021, and a Reddit thread. I would assume the only reason they are using this name is because it was used here. The only reliable source I've been able to find which refers to it by this name is a Time article from 2019 [1]. Whereas The Japan Times [2] [3], CNN [4], The Nikkei [5], and The Times [6] refer to it as the "Ikeda school massacre". As for the deprecated links, those don't use the phrasing "Osaka school massacre" either. It has never been primarily referred to as the Osaka school massacre or the names BlueGuide7551 used. The fact that it didn't occur in the city of Osaka is just another reason. It would be like naming a massacre that occurred in Pasadena, California, the "Los Angeles massacre" or the "California massacre". There is no reason to do this if the media hasn't. Swinub (talk) 20:06, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

News reports of a massacre in Osaka (accurate; that's the prefecture it occurred in) are not the same as labeling the massacre with that name. As with the example I gave, if the media reported that a massacre had occurred in California, that wouldn't mean that the article should be named "California massacre" unless the media used this name... in this case, the media has not. They have said that a massacre occurred in Osaka.

Also, a self-correction: The Free Library source used does refer to it as the "Osaka school massacre", but none of the others used in this article do. Swinub (talk) 20:34, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Swinub: Thanks for pointing out those sources. Looking at the dates on those articles, I note that the CNN source, which dates from 2001, only uses the title "Ikeda school massacre" when it captions a picture and also just uses "Ikeda massacre" and even refers to a "school massacre" in "Osaka". Meanwhile, the Japan Times sources, which date from 2005, do clearly refer to the "Ikeda school massacre in their articles' headlines, even adding the year, 2001, on one occasion. I cannot read "The Times" source as it needs a subscription, but I see it dates from 2004. The other sources you cite are more recent, with the Time article, dating from 2019, being the odd one out by referring to the "Osaka school massacre", while the others have settled on "Ikeda school massacre". The Free Library (Kyodo News) citation appears to have been added to the article in 2017, but perhaps indicates that naming this event has changed over time. As you point out, although the news media reported on a murderous stabbing rampage at the Ikeda Elementary School, they didn't actually name the event that way at the time, and it appears to me that Wikipedia editors have merely accepted the nominated name, "Osaka school massacre", without really challenging it until now. Clearly, "Ikeda school massacre" is now supported by more of the modern sources, but "Osaka school massacre" is still a recognizable alternative name that some, especially older, sources also support. I think this Wikipedia article could still acknowledge both names even if it is only named by the most recognizable one. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 02:07, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]