Talk:IfNotNow

THIS NEEDS EDITS FOR INACCURACY AND POV BIAS

This article mischaracterizes all published information and activities of the group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ohoad77 (talk • contribs) 12:30, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

@Ohoad77: Such as? Making a sweeping statement is easy, but please discuss specific mischaracterisations instead of yelling "it's all wrong!". The latter is rarely useful. Kleuske (talk) 12:33, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

@Kleuske I know that it isn't the best way to do it. Operating on a small time window, and was hoping someone with more time would spot and follow-up. My bad. But My complaint about the bias remains. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ohoad77 (talk • contribs) 12:52, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Removing Notability template

When the Notability flag was added on March 21, 2017 by a user with IP address 163.28.112.100 (the edit in question: https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=IfNotNow_(organization)&diff=prev&oldid=772426937 ), the article already had five sources cited from five different prominent news organizations (Haaretz, the Huffington Post, Forward, The Jewish Chronicle, and The Jewish News of Northern California), spanning dates from May 2, 2016 to March 17, 2017. The addition of this template was clearly in error, as detailed in the guidelines for removing the Notability template.

Additional citations and content have been added since March 21. Therefore I am removing the template from this article. Kith (talk) 15:55, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

And Kleuske beat me to it. Thanks! Kith (talk) 15:57, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Title

This isn't protected BUT per {{ARBPIA}} it should be. Anyways, can it be moved to just plain IfNotNow? It's a redirect here anyway. Is this the correct way to request this? -- BobTheIP editing as 2.28.13.227 (talk) 19:42, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

 Done moved it for you — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:31, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! 2.28.13.227 (talk) 00:11, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Good source

[1] --2001:8003:4163:AD00:FDD1:DFD5:D53A:EE8B (talk) 08:06, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Bias/possible vandalism

This edit made on August 24th seems to be largely not constructive, and may even rise to the level of vandalism. A reversion may be appropriate, or at least substantial revising to reinstate a neutral point of view. Leyarburns (talk) 18:20, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

I would extend that to all three revisions made on August 24th. They deleted correct information about If Not Now being American and progressive (at least as self-defined), and added in the biased language "Jewface." Additionally, the entire description at the beginning of the article has been turned into a polemic against If Not Now, when it is better placed in a "Controversies" section below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerdol (talk • contribs) 18:48, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

 Done by HandThatFeeds – Thjarkur (talk) 00:26, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 November 2020

There is nothing remotely progressive about the group. I would like to remote the word progressive. Progressivezionists (talk) 05:44, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

•  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. -ink&fables «talk» 08:48, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 November 2020

Seth Woody is the chairman and founding member of the organization. https://www.camera.org/article/the-washington-post-runs-an-ifnotnow-puff-piece/ 79.179.169.138 (talk) 08:34, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

 Not done Highly unreliable source. Not only that but you are misrepresenting what the source says. It does not say "chairman", it says "board member". I checked that Woody is not even mentioned in the WP article that Camera is attacking. Zero^talk 11:57, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Change of Administration updates needed

For example, David M. Friedman is the former US Ambassador to Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nutmeg39 (talk • contribs) 01:23, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done Friedman is the former ambassador now, but the sentence is describing an event that occurred while he was ambassador. Zero^talk 03:56, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

"Far-left" as used by the subject is inaccurate

Whereas generally a left right spectrum is used to describe groups accurately, "far-left" has become a pejorative deployed by centerist and right wing groups in the United States, where this article is edited.

The JSTOR article cited to support the claim of IfNotNow being "far-left" is unavailable to the general public and therefore I cannot audit it, but even the quote suggests that it is the politics of IfNotNow that place it on the left of the spectrum, and thus characterizing it as "far-left" as a pejorative does not belong in WikiPedia.

Furthermore, a 2021 survey (https://forward.com/news/473044/what-if-a-quarter-of-jews-really-do-think-israel-is-a-genocidal-apartheid/) found that "25% [of the American Jewish community] agreed that Israel was an apartheid state, while another 22% were unsure. Twenty-two percent agreed that Israel was committing genocide."

Another article reveals [2], "when pollsters working for the Jewish Electorate Institute [3] asked specific questions about Israel and Palestine to 800 Jewish American voters in 2021, what they found shocked some Jewish leaders. Fifty-eight percent of respondents said they supported restricting US military aid to Israel so that it could not spend the money on expanding settlements in the West Bank. Roughly a quarter of those surveyed said they agreed with the statement “Israel is an apartheid state.” And 31 percent said that Israel was “committing genocide” against the Palestinians. Younger Jews were much more likely to agree with both statements."

These pieces of information from 2021 place IfNotNow's views in the *majority* of American Jews, not in any way in the biased, error-riddled "far-left".

I request a change to this characterization. Biggyshorty (talk) 10:37, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

What you've done here is what we call novel synthesis: taking information from various sources and extrapolating your own conclusion. We do not allow that as a basis for editing Wikipedia articles. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 12:07, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I would like to understand what the basis is for characterizing IfNotNow as 'far-left' given that the definition was placed by an (inaccessible) JSTOR article in 2018 on the basis of the polling beliefs of the American Jewish community, when I've provided direct evidence to the opposite. Biggyshorty (talk) 13:01, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

JSTOR is not "inaccessible". See Wikipedia:Published#Accessible. Regardless, JSTOR isn't the only citation for far-left. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 13:28, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I did not notice the other two links, my apologies on that.

Jerusalem Post and Times of Israel are both nationalist Israeli newspapers with clear biases about what constitutes the American Jewish community - I do not understand how often this needs to be repeated, there is *actual* evidence of what the *actual* American Jewish community thinks that I've posted, which does not correspond to that characterization, and you refuse to even entertain that edit.

Is there a mechanism to appeal to other administrators about this? Biggyshorty (talk) 13:55, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

It doesn't need appealed to administrators, since admins will not rule on content by fiat.

You would take it to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, or start a Request for Comment. You may be right that those two sources are so inherently biased we can't rely on them for this topic, but that doesn't eliminate the JSTOR post.

And for the final time: your "evidence" is based on your personal conclusions from those poll results. We cannot use that as the basis for editing. Look, I don't like that the "Israel shouldn't be occupying Gaza" stance is considered far-left, but we need reliable sources to say otherwise, we can't just try to extrapolate from polls ourselves. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 14:30, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

How is that different than the logic that allowed INN to be labeled as "far-left" in the first place, Hand That Feeds You? Inherit The Wind (talk) 13:12, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Because there are three separate sources calling it far-left. That's not synth, that's direct citation of sources. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 13:29, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

"Far-left" isn't a pejorative, it's how WP:RS describe INN's policy positions. We report what RS say, not a WP:SYNTH of what editors believe. In the past week, the far-left phrase was used to describe INN by ABC, Newsweek, eJewishPhilanthrophy. Times of Israel and the Jerusalem Post are both RS. Longhornsg (talk) 17:22, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes I unfortunately concede that Times of Israel is an RS; but one cannot say that in the political context the noun (as opposed to adjective) "far-left" is very much a right wing pejorative term used to discredit (possibly, or not) mainstream opinions as out of the rame of possibility (see eg Lakoff or Overton Window theory).

Its absurd that people are not even allowing for this possibility and there's no way other than to get various RS (all of whom are bound by whatever ideology you want) to say "IfNotNow is NOT far-left". Biggyshorty (talk) 15:44, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

That's how Wikipedia works. Sorry, but that's how we avoid people just shoving their own opinions into articles. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:21, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

The Jerusalem Post and Times of Israel are both well known as right-wing newspapers, and using them to characterize IfNotNow as "far-left" is inappropriate. I looked at how major media are characterizing IfNotNow in their articles, and most of them simply say "left-wing":

Yonah Lieberman, a founder of IfNotNow, a left-wing Jewish grassroots organization - NBC News

Leftwing US Jewish groups gathered outside the White House on Monday to urge the Biden administration to pressure Israel into dropping its plans for a military invasion of Gaza and instead declare an immediate ceasefire. -The Guardian, in an article about IfNotNow and Jewish Voice for Peace

IfNotNow, a left-leaning group of American Jews -LA Times

A much smaller number of outlets call them "far-left":

far-left Jewish groups calling for an end to the intensifying Israel-Hamas war -ABC News

Some news outlets simply describe them as "Jewish groups", without any qualifiers:

The demonstration, organized by Jewish groups IfNotNow and Jewish Voice for Peace -Washington Post

The most common term seems to simply be "left-wing". Given that, I'm changing the description in the lede. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:59, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

JPost and ToI are not "well-known right-wing newspapers". They are reliable sources that criticize the Israeli right just as they do the Israeli left. If you take issue with their inclusion, take it up at WP:RSP, where both are green. I notice you didn't address Newsweek, eJewishPhilanthrophy, and the academic article. Far-left is a subset of left-wing, so to use left-wing does not disqualify the more precise far-left label that RS, including peer-reviewed academic sources, use. Next time, do not make contested changes to an article without achieving consensus. Longhornsg (talk) 21:43, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Longhornsg, that is not how WP:RSP is intended to be used. There are different news agencies describing IfNotNow in different ways. NBC, The Guardian and the LA Times are also reliable sources, and they call IfNotNow "left-wing". With different green-labeled sources saying different things, what do we do? That's why saying, "This source is green in RSP, so we have to use it" is wrong, and it's not how RSP was ever intended to be used. You have to actually evaluate different sources in context and come to a decision. It's not as simple as saying "green means go".

The Jerusalem Post and Times of Israel are, in fact, well known as right-wing newspapers. The major liberal newspaper in Israel is Haaretz. "Far-left" is a somewhat pejorative phrase, and if we're going to use it in the lede, we have have to be very sure that it's the most common description of the group in major media. That does not appear to be the case at all. We know that some right-wing media in Israel calls IfNotNow "far-left", but we also know major news outlets in the US and UK are generally referring to it as "left-wing", "left-leaning" or simply as "Jewish" without any further political qualifiers.

About consensus and whether I'm overturning it, I don't see any consensus for using the term "far-left" above. I see you and one editor arguing that the term "far-left" should be used, but that's not in itself evidence of a consensus. -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:19, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Just to illustrate the difference I pointed out above between right-and left-leaning newspapers in Israel, I looked up how Haaretz describes IfNotNow in its news articles. This is the first article I came across: "The progressive group IfNotNow ...". Not "far-left". "Progressive". The Jerusalem Post and Times of Israel are to the right of Haaretz, and they choose a more derogatory term to describe the group. We should use the more neutral term, which is more widely used in news coverage. -Thucydides411 (talk) 07:06, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

I greatly dislike the usage on Wikipedia of relative terms like "far-left" or "far-right," which are specific to national contexts and fail to take a WP:Global view of politics and governance. Although I can never affirmatively recommend those labels because they are not useful to readers, there's enough weight at the moment to continue to include the "far left" perspective in this article. I have edited this article today, including edits which address these points. JArthur1984 (talk) 14:39, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

I think your edits are good compromise here. Longhornsg (talk) 22:13, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Great, glad I could help. JArthur1984 (talk) 22:28, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Coming back to this a few weeks after my initial edit.... Glad to see that someone came to their senses about the misuse of 'far-left' especially given @Thucydides411 actual sourcing. The fact that @Longhornsg likes the edits I think Using the Jerusalem Post and ToI as valid sources reflects a far-right ideology, but so be it. I am satisfied, if only just, with your edits as well. Biggyshorty (talk) 19:59, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2024

In the section "Relationship with the Jewish community", remove the last paragraph "In November 2023, the Anti-Defamation League classified protest events led by groups including Jewish Voice for Peace and IfNotNow as "anti-Israel", adding the protests to a database documenting rising antisemitism in the US. ADL CEO Jonathan Greenblatt labelled the organizations "hate groups".[27]" given that the ADL is no longer a reliable source. Wikifada (talk) 01:31, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: The ADL is not being used as a source here, the citation is The Intercept . Jamedeus (talk) 04:14, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

IfNotNow and anti-Zionism

IfNotNow's view on Zionism is certainly negative. The article already says that the organization rejects "Liberal Zionist, centrist, and Right Zionist", which is pretty much the entire spectrum of Zionism. The organization's own website equates Zionism to apartheid, and claims that Zionism has caused harm to Palestinians. So while they might not openly characterize themselves as anti-Zionists, they certainly do not view Zionism very positively.

Critics have openly called IfNotNow Anti-Zionist.

It is therefore very deceptive to suggest that IfNotNow supports Zionism by highlighting Zionism as a discriminator between IfNotNow and Jewish Voice for Peace as was done in this edit. —The Mountain of Eden (talk) 02:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Anti-Zionism does not mean "negative feelings about Zionism", it has a specific meaning. INN is certainly opposed to the incarnation of Zionism, and prefers a diasporic view of Israel. We go by what RS say, not editors' WP:OR or interpretation. INN's website does not say that Zionism is apartheid, and to imply so would be a blatant misreading. The sources say INN has issues with how Zionism has manifested, but it is not an anti-Zionist organization that calls for the end of the Jewish state, like Jewish Voice for Peace. Bring sources. Longhornsg (talk) 02:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand how this works. You need to bring sources that say that IfNotNow supports Zionism and opposes BDS in order to make the claim that this is the difference between IfNotNow and Jewish Voice for Peace. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 02:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Hopefully you can live with this compromise. --The Mountain of Eden (talk) 03:02, 29 October 2024 (UTC)