Jump to content

Talk:Ideal class group

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I came here for one thing - the definition of the class group. How can this article not have that definition? 129.2.129.28 (talk) 13:46, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The (perhaps oddly named) section "Technical development" contains the definition. Is that satisfactory? RobHar (talk) 14:05, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"The article should begin with a short declarative sentence, answering two questions for the nonspecialist reader: "What (or who) is the subject?" and "Why is this subject notable?" "If possible, the page title should be the subject of the first sentence." [[[Wikipedia:Lead_section_TT_first_sentence_content|1]] The introduction to this article badly needs rewritten. I'd do it but, as it stands, it's technically beyond me... which is also a problem. Darker Dreams (talk) 13:51, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Great article, thanks! One question:

  • Do the ideal classes form a group for every integral domain, or just for Dedekind domains?

AxelBoldt 01:34 Nov 25, 2002 (UTC)

It depends whether you are including fractional ideals. If not, then no, never, as you have pointed out: the ideal group of a Dedekind domain is a free monoid with the prime ideals as generators. If we include fractional ideals, then it turns out that (every fractional ideal is invertible) implies (the ring is Dedekind). However, the relation on nonzero ideals is still an equivalence relation for integral domains that aren't Dedekind. I'll try to make this clear in the article.

alodyne

This sentence

the ideal group of a Dedekind domain is a free monoid with the prime ideals as generators

seems to contradict this passage from the article:

If R is a ring of algebraic integers, or more generally a Dedekind domain, the multiplication defined above turns the set of ideal classes into an abelian group, the ideal class group of R.

I believe this latter sentence comes from me, and I would appreciate if you could correct it. So it is not possible to define the ideal class group without recourse to fractional ideals? AxelBoldt 03:56 Nov 27, 2002 (UTC) AxelBoldt 03:56 Nov 27, 2002 (UTC)

Oops! I misread your question. The ideals never form a group that I know of (at least in non-pathological cases (</handwaving>)). The ideals are a free monoid on the prime ideals exactly when the ring is Dedekind exactly when the fractional ideals form a group. The first sentence you have above should read: "The nonzero ideals of a Dedekind domain form a free monoid with the nonzero prime ideals as generators." But I have to think about whether the ideal classes always form a group. I'm not sure anymore. The question is, given an ideal class [I], can we find a class [J] such that the product class is the principal ideals? I'll need a day or so to think it over.

I think I have resolved this issue in the article, but there may be circularity in the article still: i'd appreciate a once-over! So here's the beef in plain old hand-waving english: the integral (i.e., honest) ideals are just a monoid, because they don't have inverses under ideal multiplication. But you defined multiplication of ideal classes in exactly the right way - to multiply two classes pick representatives, multiply them, and take the class of their product to be the product of the classes. The ideal classes still form a group, with R = (1) as the identity. The problem now is to show that a class is invertible. I don't know any good way to do it without using fractional ideals, in which case we might as well just represent the whole thing as a quotient group. It seems to be a matter (in the literature at least) of how dirty you want to get your hands. Most of the modern writers use fractional ideals right from the start: it seems to be the "right" way to look at things. But Marcus, for example, never mentions them that I remember (haven't looked at his book in a while though), and you can't even read that book (Number Fields) without getting your hands absolutely filthy.

I tried to find all the places where I forgot to say "nonzero" but I probably missed some. But the zero ideal isn't really an ideal anyway. ;)

-alodyne

Here we go: To show the ideal classes form a group in a Dedekind domain, you have to show that given any ideal I there is an ideal L such that IL is principal. This relies on the fact that in Dedekind domains, a containment of ideals I ⊆ J is equivalent to a divisibility relation J | I. So in general the ideal classes don't form a group in any natural way. So I've changed the example involving the infinite class number accordingly. Any other holes?

K0 - I think there is a point here. In general this is generated by projective modules of any rank, so that there is

K0(R) → Z

given by the rank; and the ideal class group is actually the kernel of this?

Charles Matthews 08:30, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Technical development

[edit]

To what group of people is this article targeted? At first glance, having noticed the section "technical development" later on, I thought that the article must give an easy introduction followed by this "technical development". Nevertheless, it seems that one must know quite a few concepts to understand the (first sentence of the) lead alone. Was this intended, or was it intended that even laypeople should understand this article? --PST 08:20, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relation ideal class group with binary quadratic forms

[edit]

 Done

Shouldn't there be a discussion of the class number that appears in the binary quadratic from page http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Binary_quadratic_form and the class number in the ideal class number page. I came to Wikipedia to find out the connection, but no luck. Sorry, this is my first talk contribution, so maybe it should be formatted differently Bergv (talk) 01:48, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The narrow class group of a quadratic order (i.e. a ring in a quadratic field) of discriminant D is the same as the class group of the equivalence classes of binary quadratic forms of discriminant D under Gauss composition (as described here for example). It would be nice to have a mention here. RobHar (talk) 04:44, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated the article. RobHar (talk) 07:10, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Definition

[edit]

In the introduction, the ideal class group is defined as "the quotient group JK/PK where JK is the whole fractional ideals of K and PK is the principal ideals of K." What is meant by the quotient with the many ideals and not with a single object? I think this point should be clarified. K9re11 (talk) 13:32, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First sentence

[edit]

In the first sentence: "for a field K an ideal class group" Surely this should refer to an integral domain, rather than a field. Fields have only the two trivial ideals, the zero ideal and the entire field. It also is inconsistent with the definition section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:142:1:8B70:A288:B4FF:FE41:1410 (talk) 01:38, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The phrase "for a field K, an ideal class group is ..." is correct if K is an algebraic number field. Nevertheless, I agree that the formulation was confusing and formally incorrect. I have fixed this. D.Lazard (talk) 09:17, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Ideal class group. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 11:19, 11 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ideal_class_group&oldid=1202899600"