Talk:Hui people

To add to article

Basic information to add to this article: in which provinces of China they live, with a breakdown by approximate percentage of the total Hui population for each province. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 18:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Article organisation

Hey all, I started editing part of the Ancestry subsection before realising much of the information contained in it is either duplicating other subsections or would be better located within them, and generally have come to the conclusion the whole article is pretty confusingly organised. I'm going to start reorganising aspects of it, initially to make the 'definition' and 'history' sections more relevant to their headings, as well as to try to keep things better organised within subsections. I'm not broadly well-read on the subject so I'll do my best not to change or remove text itself except where it's plainly redundant or I have actually been able to dig properly into the sources on them, and I'll go through in stages to try to make each aspect clear to any editors looking over the history. Initially I'm going to be aiming to reduce the size of the definition section, moving significant chunks of it to history, and moving history up to immediately follow definition, as well as some reorganisation within subsections of each. I am a bit torn on where to include 'Genetics' (though I'll be trying to consolidate most of 'ancestry' with it) but my plan for now is to move it to be within the History section. It might be more appropriate to give it its own section (or do something completely different!) so any feedback on its placement is appreciated. If anybody disagrees or has concerns with any of my decisions or what I've foreshadowed please let me know, it feels like a lot for somebody relatively inexperienced as an editor to bite off so I'm happy to have some help to chew! Chaste Krassley (talk) 08:42, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Hey, good on you! If you need any help, let me know. Remsense诉 09:24, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Hui means Muslim

Should it not be noted that Hui means Muslim in Chinese characters? Contrimade (talk) 18:24, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

It's not quite that simple, in any case. Remsense ‥ 论 04:03, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The character does mean Islam or Muslim though. What is the argument against it? Contrimade (talk) 12:39, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Like many Chinese characters, it has several meanings, directly and indirectly related to one another. I would have to review the sources to see if they give a literal translation as such—I could totally see if many prefer to translate it more narrowly as "Hui" given the recent evolution of the term. Remsense ‥ 论 12:45, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Lead

@Leoshuo, I'll repeat my previous edit summary, citing WP:LEAD and WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY: this isn't how articles are structured. the lead is meant to be a tight summary of the key information stated in the body for the reader. Article leads should not packed indiscriminately with lists and terms. Despite not wanting to, you've made a general editorial critique (probably should focus more on producing instead of deleting) regardless, and I think it's telling. If you notice I delete more than I add, that's because good additions require a lot of consideration such that they don't contribute to messes for others to clean up later. At least half of editing involves judging what not to include (or what to defer showing); editors adding everything everywhere with no sense of sense of balance or cohesion from the reader's perspective is how we end up with totally bloated, unreadable, unmaintainable, useless articles. I will not apologize for attempting to rectify these issues at the source when I see them made, and I intend to give future editors who want to bring these articles up to a certain level standard of quality some hope that they won't have to totally rewrite from scratch.

I'd prefer you take my advice and arrange content like this in the body where it belongs, rather than assuming additions are helpful merely because they are additions, and removals are by default destructive. That could not be further from the case. Remsense ‥ 论 05:01, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your correspondence. Adding common alternative names are quite important to the lead. Sometimes, alternative names may not appear in the first paragraph, but on other paragraphs in the lead. If you have a look at the Article "Romani people" (https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Romani_people), you will understand what I mean. "Romani people" and "Roma" are on the first paragraph, and "Gypsies" and "Gipsies" are on the second paragraph. Explaining the origins and etymology of those names should be put in the body of the Article, but a general description of the alternative names should be in the lead. So far I can't take your advice, but I won't make any further editing until your further correspondence. I am not satisfied with the lead of "Hui people" also. I think it requires an overhaul Leoshuo (talk) 05:16, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

In my view, that article is also very bad, and suffers from the same bloat problems. Frankly, it's much worse. Remsense ‥ 论 05:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

In specific, I am highly skeptical that any synonym needs to be provided in the lead. The difference is that the Romani have a much longer lexical history in English, and so more terms are in circulation in English. WP:Wikipedia is not a dictionary, so we should generally de-prioritize (though obviously not exclude) mere discussion of what things are called, in favor of discussing what things are. Obviously, the existence and history of terms is itself part of that discussion, arguably especially in Chinese, but so many articles overstuff etymological and lexical information at the top of articles and it does readers a disservice. Remsense ‥ 论 05:24, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Correction: "Hui people" as a new concept was first coined during the rule of Xinjiang by warlord Sheng Shicai, when Xinjiang was semi-independent. The idea was delivered under the name “新疆回族文化促进会” alongside many "文化促进会" for other groups. You can have a look at the Chinese Wikipedia page "https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%96%B0%E7%96%86%E5%9B%9E%E6%97%8F%E6%96%87%E5%8C%96%E4%BF%83%E8%BF%9B%E4%BC%9A". It was not widely accepted throughout China during the Republic of China era in Mainland China. The People's Republic of China further publicised this new concept.

Anyways it is quite necessary that alternative names need to be put in the lead. Details of those disputes in regards to if this group really is an ethnic group should be put in the body Leoshuo (talk) 06:03, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I hope we will reach an agreement on this matter. "Hui people" is quite a new concept. It only were created after 1954 when the National Ethnic Affairs Commission of the People's Republic of China coined this idea for the first time. However, Islam has been introduced to China for more than 1000 years. Traditionally, this group were never called "Hui people" and were referred to under multiple different names. Chinese Muslims who fleed to Taiwan with the same cultural and religious background as that of "Hui people" in Mainland China were never considered as "Hui people". Therefore, I believe alternative names for "Hui people" is quite necessary in the lead, so the readers can understand that people and authorities in Greater China call this group with different ways. I also believe "Nationals in China proper with special convention" should not be changed to "nationals with special convention", because that was not the title for the delegates in the Chinese National Assembly of the Republic of China.

I probably need more planning, so I won't make any further editing today. However, more alternative names are necessary for the lead Leoshuo (talk) 05:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC)