Talk:Howl (poem)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Carl Solomon

As far as I know Carl Solomon was never Ginsberg's lover -- only his friend. Ginsberg only liked pretty "angelic" men and Solomon wasn't pretty. I found no indications that they were ever intimate. Then again, Ginsberg didn't often shy away from convenient intimacy. If somebody else has indications otherwise, please let me know. F. Simon Grant 14:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Clicking on Carl Solomon in the references part just redirects you to the article, which really doesn't accomplish much. Thoughts? Bolt Vanderhuge 04:56, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Right, there is not much use for this link. I came here from Howl-article in german wikipedia because of the reference list, especially in the hope of finding some info about Solomon, but there's not more info about him than in german article. I don't have an account on en.wikipedia so I'll leave it as is... Greetings 80.129.180.169 18:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

There should be a reference to Howl USA by Kronos Quartet --jenlight 14:39, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Penny Rimbaud's "How?" belongs on this article. There have been many works based on howl, why should this one be part of the article?

• Why not include these as well rather than getting rid of something that is relevant? quercus robur 18:53, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Rhythm

The information under the heading "Rhythm" doesn't really tell us anything about the poem's rhythm at all. It doesn't even really discuss meter or the poem's prosody. It merely cites the obvious fact that the lines in the fist section are long and that the first section has anaphora, though it calls the anaphora of "who" a refrain, which it isn't. A refrain would be a repeated phrase, line, verse, or verses. In this case, anaphora is a repeated word at the beginning of a verse paragraph (which, itself, is formed into long lines that make up the run-on sentence). Anaphora is prominent in William Blake's poetry, and that might be where Ginsberg learned the poetic device. The long line has been around in American poetry since Whitman (going back to Milton's enjambment, if you want to take it back that far), though I'm not sure that Ginsberg's long line or its rhythm receives any significant treatment here. I'm also not sure that this section should exist, at least not in its present form. Somebody should either focus on Howl's rhythm, meter, and prosody--or argue that the poem has no discernable prosodic form--or delete this section entirely. Josh a brewer 16:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Obscure References?

Would anyone mind if this section was revised? Most of the terms in the glossary don't seem to be obscure at all, such as "amnesia," "boxcar," "Edgar Allan Poe," "Hebrew," "insulin," "ping pong," and "sphinx," to name just a few. Terms such as this coupled with the phrasing of the beginning sentence ("Not all things in Howl are easily understood by the common reader...") has the effect of coming off as almost snobbish, and doesn't seem to give the reader much credit for his intelligence. Most anybody who paid the slightest bit of attention in school knows what most of these terms are. To me, much of the list sounds like an excuse to give oneself a pat on the back for having some basic knowledge, and doesn't really benefit the article much at all. I suggest severely trimming the list to preserve specific references such as "Carl Solomon," "Fugazzi's," "The Vibrating Plane," etc., that most people really aren't familiar with. I'll be happy to do it myself, but I'd like some feedback first, particularly on which terms to keep if the section is to remain in any form. Intooblv 09:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Trim away, the section is patronising and condescending, it should probably be removed completely IMHO quercus robur 19:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Renamed the section to "Glossary" for the time being and for lack of a better title, removed the first (and most condescending) sentence from the intro, and reduced the terms in the list to those that I felt were most relevant. Let's see how that sits for a little while. Intooblv 13:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The Other Poems

Does anybody else feel that the "Other Poems" section doesn't belong in the article? I could understand a sidenote referencing the Blake connection between "Howl" and "Sunflower Sutra," but it seems like the information presented for each poem would be more appropriately used in the development of new articles, rather than as a cling-on to this one. While interesting, most of it just isn't relevant to "Howl" as a separate work. It's like tacking on a plot summary to "The Cask of Amontillado" in the article on "The Raven."

P.S. - The more I look at this article, the more I feel it needs an almost complete rewrite. Any takers? Intooblv 13:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you unaware that "Howl" was the name of a collection of poems and a poem within that collection? If the article was on a book called "The Raven" which contained "The Raven" and "The Cask of Amontillado" then I'd say yes! definitely you'd need to talk about both! Are you suggesting that we make separate articles about "Howl" the poem and "Howl and Other Poems"? That seems ridiculous. Understanding all of the poems in "Howl and Other Poems" is important to understanding "Howl" itslef. Plus the link is to "Howl and Other Poems" -- Not just "Howl" the poem. Creating two articles would just be confusing and entirely unnecessary. F. Simon Grant 19:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC) 20:08, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

No, I am not unaware of that fact. However, as it stands right now, the article seems to be largely about "Howl" as a work on its own - the introduction itself states that "Howl is a poem by poet Allen Ginsberg," not "a collection of poems" and the title of the article is "Howl," not "Howl and Other Poems." Searching for "Howl and Other Poems" does not redirect to this article, but rather to a match page which lists it, and also happens to list "America," which has a very short, concise article to itself. The fact that "Howl" is anything other than a single poem by Ginsberg isn't even mentioned until section five, and in the following sections the "other poems" are promptly forgotten once again, as the subject matter seems to revert back to "Howl" by itself. My point is that it needs to be decided which is being discussed; the one poem (in which case the "other poems" should probably be removed), or the collection as a whole (in which case they seem to be getting the shaft - anyone looking for information on "Supermarket in California" or "Sunflower Sutra" would have to magically know to come to an article simply called "Howl," which gives no indication of having the information they want until midway through). As it stands right now, the article is simply inconsistent and, as I see it, not very encyclopedic. I realize the difficulty in constructing an article that will provide a reasonable grasp of a work by someone such as Ginsberg (especially this one), who was able to cram a lot of meaning into a few well-chosen words, but it seems like this one tries very hard to act as a substitute for actually reading the thing. Finally, I don't see a problem with creating separate articles for "Howl" and "Howl&OP." The article on "The Canterbury Tales" does this to good effect, with separate articles on each tale. intooblv 13:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Well quit talking and do it. Geez.

F. Simon Grant 19:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC) 21:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but just thinking about sifting through all this makes my head hurt. Besides, I thought it would be nice to get the opinions of OTHERS before making drastic changes to suit my own tastes. Geez. intooblv 04:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Where is the separate entry for "Howl and Other Poems"??? Simply deleting all the "Other Poems" in this article doesn't help anything. Having no link to the "America" article doesn't help anything. My motivation behind working on this page is to help students; simply deleting useful information is not helping students. Information about "Sunflower Sutra" is certainly not irrelevant to Ginsberg and to "Howl and Other Poems" -- a connection really needs to be made between "Howl" and "America" since they were 1) written only a few months apart, 2) included in the same collection, 3) a side-by-side comparison is very enlightening when considering Ginsberg's technique and subject matter at this time. I don't believe inclusion of that information on this page is clutter; I believe it's very useful. If that's not satisfactory, we really must make a separate page for the collection of poems. When the poem is mentioned on the main Ginsberg page, it should link to the poem. When the collection is mention (for example at the bottom of the page) it should link to the collection. The worst solution is to just delete stuff. "America" and "Sunflower Sutra" are, I'd say, his fourth and fifth most important poems and they're best understood next to "Howl" -- to have an absence of any connection to them here is helping no one.

F. Simon Grant 19:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's the deleted content in case anyone's interested in actually making this page informative:

The "Other Poems" in "Howl and Other Poems" Though "Howl" was certainly Ginsberg's most famous poem, the collection includes many examples of Ginsberg at his peak, many of which garnered nearly as much attention and praise as "Howl"; these include:

"America" -- a poem in a conversation form between the narrator and America. When the narrator says "It Occurs to me that I am America", he follows with "I am talking to myself again." He's criticizing past events in the U.S., using a sarcastic tone. His references to Communism are a sign of his sarcasm. He refers to himself as a psychopath who's nearsighted; by referring to himself as a psychopath he's criticizing America's lack of tolerance for change and differences, as well as acknowledging that he sees the problems that are at hand. He criticizes America, saying they make a lot of changes abroad but they ignore the persistent issues here. It was very radical for its time, 1956, by discussing drugs, sex, mental issues. He talks about being a Communist when he was seven after McCarthyism florished. He references several heroes and martyrs of significant movements such as the labor movement. These include: Leon Trotsky, the Scottsboro Boys, Sacco and Vanzetti, the Wobblies IWW. Some of these were persecuted without evidence. Despite the fact that he does not approve of all that is going on in America, he is still an American and loves America. "A Supermarket in California" -- a short poem about a dreamlike encounter with Walt Whitman, about a hunger for collaboration or meeting with his idol. The admiration is almost sexual, food occasionally serving as sexual puns. The poem suggests the stereotypical pattern of shopping for groceries and how Whitman went out of the norm. Early in the poem he mentions tomatoes which is a fundamental fruit. Later in the poem it says Whitman was tasting artichokes which is out of the ordinary. Perhaps he was trying to show how Whitman was different from most of the fellow shoppers who stand in for people in general. Whitman and Ginsberg steal some of the food. He employs a different tone in this poem, a calmer tone. He references Frederico Garcia Lorca who wrote Surrealist poems about Walt Whitman. Garcia Lorca could be stealing stuff too. "Sunflower Sutra" -- an account of a sojourn with Jack Kerouac in a railroad yard, the discovery of a sunflower covered in dirt and soot from the railroad yard, and the subsequent revelation that this is a metaphor for all humanity: "we are not our skin of grime." This relates to his vision/auditory hallucination of poet William Blake reading "Ah, Sunflower": "Blake, my visions." (See also line in Howl: "Blake-light tragedies" and references in other poems). The theme of the poem is consistent with Ginsberg's revelation in his original vision of Blake: the revelation that all of humanity was interconnected. (See also the line in "Footnote to Howl": "The world is holy!"). This may also be consistent with one reading of "Ah, Sunflower": a soul on its way to heaven. "Transcription of Organ Music" -- an account of a quiet moment in his new cottage in Berkley, nearly empty, not yet fully set up (Ginsberg being too poor, for example, to get telephone service). The poem contains repeated images of opening or being open: open doors, empty sockets, opening flowers, the open womb, leading to the image of the whole world being "open to receive." The "H.P." in the poem is Helen Parker, one of Ginsberg's first girlfriends; they dated briefly in 1950. The poem ends on a Whitman-esque note with a confession of his desire for people to "bow when they see" him and say he is "gifted with poetry" and has seen the creator. This may be seen as arrogance, but Ginsberg's arrogant statements can often be read as tongue-in-cheek (see for example "I am America" from "America" or the later poem "Ego Confessions"). However, this could be another example of Ginsberg trying on the Walt Whitman persona (Whitman who, for example, called himself a "kosmos" partly to show the interconnectedness of all beings) which would become so integral to his image in later decades. "In the Baggage Room at Grey Hound" Some editions also include earlier poems, such as:

"Song" "In Back of the Real" "Wild Orphan" "An Asphodel"

F. Simon Grant 19:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm with you in Rockland

Apparently Carl Solomon was not in interned in Rockland, AG only uses that refrain for the sake of convenience. I have that on good authority but have no verifiable evidence for it. Does anyone? Haiduc 04:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Not at hand but you are right. We need to get Solomon's birth and death dates up also. Circa 1925- circa 1993. we need to get the right dates-they are available. 72.221.82.214 13:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Howl and The Six Gallery Reading

Respectfully, I would like to bring the following to your attention:

Wally Hedrick – a painter and veteran of the Korean War – approached Ginsberg in the summer of 1955 and asked him to organize a poetry reading at the Six Gallery…At first, Ginsberg refused…But once he’d written a rough draft of Howl, he changed his “fucking mind,” as he put it. Reference: Jonah Raskin, American Scream: Allen Ginsberg’s “Howl” and the Making of the Beat Generation.

Thank you...--Art4em 16:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why there are so many different versions of the origin of the Six Gallery reading (including date, who planned it, etc.) The version I've heard most (and this is in reliable sources like the Barry Miles biography of Ginsberg to name just one off the top of my head) is that Michael McClure was originally supposed to plan it (he'd been in a Robert Duncan play at the Six Gallery earlier that year) but he passed the duty off to Ginsberg. I read American Scream a long time ago. I don't remember that inconsistency. How do we know which version is true? Or is it like the discussion of the Beatles name on the "Beat Generation" page, just a misreading on somebody's part?

F. Simon Grant 16:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I am going to let Allen Ginsberg's testimony validate Allen Ginsberg's, Howl, Six Gallery Reading...if there is no objection.

Respectfully,

--Art4em 00:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Trivia reference?

Is it worth note as a pop culture/trivia reference that a parody of Howl appears in a Simpsons' episode?

I don't exactly remember the episode, although the subject was the ruin of a Thanksgiving dinner.

This was the episode: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Simpsons#Bart_vs._Thanksgiving_.5B2.07.5D --83.39.87.102 17:39, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe "El" refers to the Elevated trains in Chicago.

Fair use rationale for Image:Howlandotherpoems.jpeg

Image:Howlandotherpoems.jpeg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

In Popular Culture

The In Popular Culture part of the article is too long and probably should not be there in the first place. While cultural reactions to a poem can be listed in an article, they should not modify the presentation to the extent that these do. The article is about a poem (as it now stands, though we do have the problem that some are treating it as if it were a book of poems), and the article must be about the poem and its influence, not the reaction of popular culture to the influence. An encyclopedic article doesn't have to list every time a term is used or abused, and pop culture sections are often full of information that should be in a Trivia section that should be deleted :) Mrathel (talk) 20:56, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

INAPPROPRIATE REDIRECTION

WTF? You type "howl" into the wikipedia "search" engine and you come directly to this page? Is this some sort of redirect spam by the publishers. There is NO WAY this is the most common usage of the word howl. There is NO WAY this search term should be redirected to this page. Typical low quality, wikiality shit.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.213.121 (talk) 14:40, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

• Intriguing. I had troubles too, but of a different sort. I was searching for wikiHowl, the world's largest funny how-to manual, when I somehow ended up here, of all places. Next time I will simply type in www.wikihowl.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.136.204.183 (talk) 00:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Notoriety

"Notoriety" suggests that it is portrayed in a bad way, and yet everything under this section tends to glorify the subject. Perhaps some of the many criticisms of the poem as obsecene or inadequate should go here? Mrathel (talk) 17:06, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Nevermind, I have switched this into a "Critical Reception" section, which should cover both good and bad reactions to the poem. Mrathel (talk) 21:00, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Howl is a book of poems

This is responding to part of the comments above: We've had the discussion in previous posts about Howl the poem vs. Howl the book of poems and hopefully this is the last time we'll have to discuss it. If this were an article just about Howl the poem, it would be necessary to make a separate article about Howl and Other Poems since some of Ginsberg's most important poems ("America," "Sunflower Sutra," etc.) are included in the book of poems. I contend that two separate articles about the poem and the book are entirely unnecessary. If you would like to discuss this further, please feel free.F. Simon Grant (talk) 18:42, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Right, well silly me... I just thought that since the artile's name is "Howl", and not "Howl and Other Poems", that we were discussing a single poem. And since the article starts: "Allen Ginsberg wrote the poem "Howl" in the summer of 1955, at a cottage in Berkeley. " and goes on with "The poem was first performed at the famous"... and continues to talk about... a poem.... I was just under the impression that the article was going to have its name as its subject.Mrathel (talk) 22:35, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, what we have here is a strange phenomenon. This article should be under the title "Howl and Other Poems" with "Howl"(poem) redirecting to it. Instead, what you have is an article called "Howl" with "Howl and Other Poems" redirecting..even though the redirect is what you claim the article to be about.(???)Now here's the kicker, if you simply fix this mistake, it won't be long before someone creates an article on "Howl", at which point we can decide whether or not it is notable enough to avoid merging (and given the amount of critical coverage "Howl" has generated, I will bet one of my reproductive organs that it will not be forced to merge back). So , while I hate to burden you with this discussion, and I too hope it will be the last time this will be discussed, I think it would be best that we let the folks hash this one out before we slam the door on the issue.Mrathel (talk) 22:53, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Proposed course of action:

• This entire article, minus the irrelevent information, can be moved to a page titled Howl and Other Poems.
• A new article specifically named Howl or Howl (Poem) be placed here that deals only with the poem itself
• We whipe out the pop culture references because they are not about the poem but rather other works that allude to the poem, making them connective trivia. Again, i know some people get really upset that an article on a major work of literature doesn't include a reference to their favorite show on the cartoon network, but if they feel it is notable, they can create a new article entitled Howl in Popular Culture
• We add sources from literary critics to boost the credibility of the information, since something of this size needs a variety of sources to give a well-rounded presentation

Any takers? Mrathel (talk) 19:43, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

So, I have created an article on Howl and Other Poems, which talks about the 1956 collection. This article needs to talk specifically about "Howl" the poem, since it is under that name. Now I have heard some say that there is no reason for 2 articles, but the truth is that both subjects (Howl/ Howl and Other Poems) pass WP:Notability, and thus merit separate articles. If you do not beleve this, then we can put it to vote, but from what I gather from previous discussions as well as the brief one in the poetry project's talk page, there seems to be only one person who feels these are not notable enough to stand alone. The pop culture references as well as the sections on interpretations of the poem have been eliminated, and now it is time for 2 great tasks: 1. Clean up the remaining text to make sure that no information is unsourced in the page for the collection 2. Remove all information on this page regarding the other poems in the collection, unless it pertains to the poem "Howl". Let the fun begin :) Mrathel (talk) 20:47, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

You're kind of a dick aren't you? I would love to help out with this page, and I have done much for this page, but I just have to be the one to say you're kind of a dick. Oh, and I meant to add, I'm not going to help out with this page, for the above mentioned reasons, ie you're a dick.F. Simon Grant (talk) 20:58, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

There is no need for such language. The ref added was done incorrectly, causing red text to appear all over the page. If you would like to redo it and fix the problem, then I have no objection to it being added, so long as specific page numbers are given upon each instance. I tried to fix the problem manually, but without page numbers, it seemed like the ref was just being added at random intervals Mrathel (talk) 21:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Specific References in Howl

This section needs to be cut dramatically and put into prose. It should start something like "Howl contains several references to cultural and literary topics..." (or something of the sort) then proceed to list the major allusions in the poem. Perhaps we can remove the section then readd the information for which we can find specific sources to support the connection between the lines of the poem and the topics to which they allude. As it stands, it is a big block of nothingness that sits in the middle of the article where real information should be. It is horribly unsourced and really drags the article down. Mrathel (talk) 20:38, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I actually meant you're a dick about this part, and I don't take it back. Please, when you erase a big part of an article like this, put the part you've erased on the talk page so I can find the goddamn thing easily. Much of the content of this page was generated by me.

Trans: "wah wah, I wrote some of the page and now someone else is making it better". Diddums.

 It was not perfect.  I understand that.  I can't spend every waking hour of my day making this bull crap half way decent.  I, like most Wikipedia editors, have a life, and I can't devote my life to living up to your standards.  So if something is imperfect, as I argue most Wikipedia articles are imperfect and as I certainly argue this article is imperfect, don't be a dick about it.  Be a decent human being.  And, yes, those refs were screwed up.  I tried to revert them but was unable to for some reason and ran out of time and had to leave because, as I said, I have a life.  I wouldn't be pissed about that.  And those refs do refer to the content of those paragraphs because I wrote most of the content of those paragraphs and that's where I got it.  I'll give you your damn page numbers if I can find the damn chunk you erased and find a damn chunk of time to do it.  But don't expect a completed product any time soon, sir.  This is pro bono.  None of us is getting paid, and you are certainly not our boss.F. Simon Grant (talk) 21:03, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Here, you joyless assclown of conformity. This is what you should've had the decency to paste into the talk page to begin with:

"Who passed through universities with radiant cool eyes hallucinating Arkansas and Blake-light tragedies among the scholars of war"

Ginsberg had an important auditory hallucination in 1948 of William Blake reading his poems "Ah, Sunflower," "The Sick Rose," and "Little Girl Lost." Ginsberg said it revealed to him the interconnectedness of all existence. He said his drug experimentation in many ways was an attempt to recapture that feeling. "Who were expelled from the academy for crazy & publishing obscene odes on the windows of the skull"

Part of the reason Ginsberg was expelled from Columbia University was because he wrote obscenities in his dirty dorm window. He suspected the cleaning woman of being an anti-Semite because she never cleaned his window, and he expressed this feeling in explicit terms on his window and drew an ironic swastika. He also wrote a phrase on the window implying that the president of the university had no testicles. "... poles of Canada and Paterson ..."

Kerouac was French-Canadian from Lowell, Massachusetts; Ginsberg grew up in Paterson, New Jersey. These two were considered the two poles of the Beat Generation since Kerouac was relatively conservative politically. "who sank all night in submarine light of Bickford's floated out and sat through the stale beer afternoons in desolate Fugazzi's..."

Bickford's and Fugazzi's were New York spots where the Beats hung out. Ginsberg worked briefly at Fugazzi's.

Bickford's is actually a chain which still exists which was begun in New York by a New Englander had as many as 48 locations in New York for several years and still exists in New England.

"... Tangerian bone-grindings..." "... Tangiers to boys ..."

William S. Burroughs lived in Tangier, Morocco at the time Ginsberg wrote "Howl." "who studied Plotinus Poe St. John of the Cross telepathy and bop kabbalah because the cosmos instinctively vibrated at their feet in Kansas"

Mystics and forms of mysticism in which Ginsberg at one time had an interest (the concept of "The Dark Night of the Soul" by St John of the Cross is especially appropriate for "Howl"). Kansas/Kansas City could be a reference to either Michael McClure or Burroughs, but that is uncertain. From "who let themselves..." to "flashing buttocks under barn and naked in the lake"

Though it could be a reference to anyone's sexual exploits, it's likely a specific reference to Neal Cassady. "Who went out whoring through Colorado in myriad stolen night-cars, N. C. secret hero of these poems" is definitely a reference to Neal Cassady (N.C.) who lived in Denver, Colorado. "who walked all night with their shoes full of blood on the showbank docks waiting for a door in the East River to open to a room full of steamheat and opium"

A specific reference to Herbert Huncke. "... and rose to build harpsichords in their lofts..."

Friend Bill Keck actually built harpsichords. Ginsberg had a conversation with Bill Keck's wife shortly before writing "Howl." "who coughed on the six floor of Harlem crowned with flame under the tubercular sky surrounded by orange crates of theology"

This is a reference to the apartment in which Ginsberg lived when he had his Blake vision. His roommate was a theology student and kept his books in orange crates. "who threw their watches off the roof to cast their ballot with eternity outside of time..."

A reference to Ginsberg's Columbia classmate Louis Simpson, an incident that happened during a brief stay in a mental institution for PTSD. Simpson later became a celebrated formalist poet. Since he was a formalist in the 50's he's often presented as being Ginsberg's opposite. But they remained friendly with one another throughout their lives. Simpson, who moved away from formalism later in his career, even occasionally, defended Ginsberg's poetry. "who were burned alive in their innocent flannel suits..."

Ginsberg worked in several corporate jobs, including advertising firms. Many say it's when he was advised by his psychiatrist to quit his steady job that he was free to write "Howl." This passage also has some prime examples of Ginsberg's "eyeball kicks." "who jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge..."

A specific reference to Tuli Kupferberg. "who sang out of their windows in despair..."

A specific reference to Bill Cannastra who actually did most of these things and died when he "fell out of the subway window." From "who barreled down the highways of the past" to "& now Denver is lonesome for her heroes"

Likely a reference to Neal Cassady. "who fell on their knees in hopeless cathedrals ..."

Likely a reference to Kerouac in his first revelation of the double meaning of "Beat" (the negative meaning of tired and broke, the positive meaning of beatific) central to the legend of the origins of the "Beat Generation." "who retired to Mexico to cultivate a habit, or Rocky Mount to tender Buddha or Tangiers to boys or Southern Pacific to the black locomotive or Harvard to Narcissus to Woodlawn to the daisychain or grave"

The first one could have been many of the beats who regularly went to Mexico and cultivated drug habits. The second is likely a reference to Kerouac who regularly went to Rocky Mount, North Carolina (a specific recounting of this can be found in Dharma Bums). As for the third one, as Ginsberg says in "America" "Burroughs is in Tangiers I don't think he'll come back it's sinister." The fourth is likely a reference to Neal Cassady who was a brakeman for the Southern Pacific. From "who threw potato salad at CCNY lecturers on Dadaism..." to "resting briefly in catatonia"

A specific reference to Carl Solomon. Originally this final section went straight into what is now Part III, which is entirely about Carl Solomon. "Pilgrim's State's Rockland's and Greystone's foetid halls ..."

The first and third are mental institutions where his mother was admitted. She was in Pilgrim's State at the time he wrote "Howl." Rockland is the institution where he met Solomon. "with mother finally ******"

Ginsberg admitted that the deletion here was an expletive. He left it purposefully elliptical so the mind will fill in what it wants. In later readings, many years after he was able to distance himself from his difficult history with his mother, he reinserted the expletive. "obsessed with a sudden flash of the alchemy of the use of the ellipse the catalog the meter (alt: variable measure) & the vibrating plane"

This is a recounting of Ginsberg's discovery of his own style and the debt he owed to his strongest influences. He discovered the use of the ellipse from haiku and the shorter poetry of Ezra Pound and William Carlos Williams. "The catalog" is likely a reference to Walt Whitman's long line style which Ginsberg adapted. "The meter"/"variable measure" is likely a reference to Williams's insistence on the necessity of measure. Though "Howl" may seem formless, and this is perhaps a purposeful effect of the style, Ginsberg claimed it was written in a concept of measure adapted from Williams's idea of breath, the measure of lines in a poem being based on the breath in reading. Ginsberg's breath in reading, he said, happened to be longer than Williams's. "The vibrating plane" is a reference to Ginsberg's discovery of the "eyeball kick" in his study of Cézanne. From "who dreamt and made incarnate gaps in Time & Space" to "what might be left to say in time come after death"

A more detailed recounting of the discovery of his own style: the "eyeball kick", parataxis, the ellipsis, etc. "Pater Omnipitens Aeterna Deus"/"omnipotent, eternal father God" was taken directly from Cézanne. "eli eli lamma lamma sabachthani"

One version of the last words of Jesus: "Oh God, why have you forsaken me?" Though Ginsberg grew up in an agnostic household, he was always interested in his Jewish roots and in other concepts of spiritual transcendence. Though later Ginsberg was a devoted Buddhist, at this time Ginsberg was only beginning to study Buddhism along with other forms of spirituality. So one can read this last line as an ironic mockery of one of the dominant values of 1950's America (Christianity). But an essential aspect of Ginsberg's poetry, and Beat writing as a whole, is a genuine search for spiritual enlightenment outside of the traditional strictures of religious dogma (see for example Kerouac's relationship to Catholicism).[6] From "Footnote to Howl":

"Holy Peter holy Allen holy Solomon holy Lucien holy Kerouac holy Huncke holy Burroughs holy Cassady" F. Simon Grant (talk) 21:07, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

This part is not encyclopedic in nature; and it is in the article history if you need it; there is no need to paste the entire thing on the talk page; that just clutters up the discussion and makes it hard to read. Mrathel (talk) 16:16, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Specific References in Howl redo

Here's the first draft of the redo of that section. Please tell me what exactly is wrong. We all know you enjoy talking about what's wrong, but please find it in your heart to be specific. I don't think making it prose is a good idea. If it slows down the middle of the page in this format, prose would be terrible. I can make a chart like the chart of membership at the bottom of the Surrealism page. This is a lot of information, but why reduce the amount of information? If you would like to turn this into a separate page, please suggest that: The most important works of literature on Wikipedia often have separate pages with thorough explanations of specific references. I think reduction of information is a ridiculous direction to go. Please address how we can keep the same level of information without stepping on any of your pet peeves. I am, after all, here to serve you. NOTE: THIS IS NOT COMPLETED:

• “who bared their brains to Heaven under the El and saw Mohammedan angels staggering on tenement roofs illuminated.”

This is a direct reference to told to Ginsberg by Kerouac about poet Philip Lamatia’s “celestial adventure” after reading the Koran.

• "Who passed through universities with radiant cool eyes hallucinating Arkansas and Blake-light tragedies among the scholars of war" and “who thought they were only mad when Baltimore gleamed in supernatural ecstasy”

Ginsberg had an important auditory hallucination in 1948 of William Blake reading his poems "Ah, Sunflower," "The Sick Rose," and "Little Girl Lost." Ginsberg said it revealed to him the interconnectedness of all existence. He said his drug experimentation in many ways was an attempt to recapture that feeling.

• "Who were expelled from the academy for crazy & publishing obscene odes on the windows of the skull"

Part of the reason Ginsberg was expelled from Columbia University was because he wrote obscenities in his dirty dorm window. He suspected the cleaning woman of being an anti-Semite because she never cleaned his window, and he expressed this feeling in explicit terms on his window and drew an ironic swastika. He also wrote a phrase on the window implying that the president of the university had no testicles.

• "... poles of Canada and Paterson ..."

Kerouac was French-Canadian from Lowell, Massachusetts; Ginsberg grew up in Paterson, New Jersey.

• "who sank all night in submarine light of Bickford's floated out and sat through the stale beer afternoons in desolate Fugazzi's..."

Bickford's and Fugazzi's were New York spots where the Beats hung out. Ginsberg worked briefly at Fugazzi's.

• "... Tangerian bone-grindings..." "... Tangiers to boys ..."

William S. Burroughs lived in Tangier, Morocco at the time Ginsberg wrote "Howl." He also experienced withdrawal from heroin which he wrote about in several letters to Ginsberg.

• "who studied Plotinus Poe St. John of the Cross telepathy and bop kabbalah because the cosmos instinctively vibrated at their feet in Kansas"

Mystics and forms of mysticism in which Ginsberg at one time had an interest

• “who disappeared into the volcanoes of Mexico.”

Both a reference to John Hoffman, a friend of Philip Lamantia and Carl Solomon, who died in Mexico, and a reference to Under the Volcano by Malcolm Lowry.

• “weeping and undressing while the sirens of Los Alamos wailed them down.”

A reference to a protest staged by Judith Malina, Julian Beck, and other members of The Living Theater.

• “who bit detectives in the neck … dragged off the roof waving genitals and manuscripts.” Also, from “who sang out of their windows in despair” to “the blast of colossal steam whistles.”

A specific reference to Bill Cannastra who actually did most of these things and died when he "fell out of the subway window."

• ”Saintly motorcyclists”

A reference to Marlon Brando and his biker persona in The Wild One

• From “Who copulated ecstatic and insatiate” to "Who went out whoring through Colorado in myriad stolen night-cars, N. C. secret hero of these poems." Also, from "who barreled down the highways of the past" to "& now Denver is lonesome for her heroes"

A reference to Neal Cassady (N.C.) who lived in Denver, Colorado, and had a reputation for being sexually voracious.

• "who walked all night with their shoes full of blood on the showbank docks waiting for a door in the East River to open to a room full of steamheat and opium"

A specific reference to Herbert Huncke’s condition after being released from Riker’s Island.

• "... and rose to build harpsichords in their lofts..."

Friend Bill Keck actually built harpsichords. Ginsberg had a conversation with Bill Keck's wife shortly before writing "Howl."

• "who coughed on the six floor of Harlem crowned with flame under the tubercular sky surrounded by orange crates of theology"

This is a reference to the apartment in which Ginsberg lived when he had his Blake vision. His roommate, Russell Durgin, was a theology student and kept his books in orange crates.

• "who threw their watches off the roof to cast their ballot with eternity outside of time..."

A reference to Ginsberg's Columbia classmate Louis Simpson, an incident that happened during a brief stay in a mental institution for PTSD.

• "who jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge..."

A specific reference to Tuli Kupferberg.

• "who fell on their knees in hopeless cathedrals ..."

Likely a reference to Kerouac in his first revelation of the double meaning of "Beat" (the negative meaning of tired and broke, the positive meaning of beatific) central to the legend of the origins of the "Beat Generation."

• "who retired to Mexico to cultivate a habit, or Rocky Mount to tender Buddha or Tangiers to boys or Southern Pacific to the black locomotive or Harvard to Narcissus to Woodlawn to the daisychain or grave"

Many of the Beats went to Mexico City to “cultivate” a drug “habit,” but Ginsberg claims this is a direct reference to Burroughs and Bill Garver. However, Burroughs lived in Tangiers at the time (as Ginsberg says in "America" "Burroughs is in Tangiers I don't think he'll come back it's sinister"). Rocky Mount, North Carolina, is where Jack Kerouac’s sister lived (as recounted in Dharma Bums). Also, Neal Cassady was a brakeman for the Southern Pacific. John Hollander was an alumnus of Harvard. Ginsberg’s mother Naomi lived near Woodlawn Cemetary.

• “Accusing the radio of hypnotism…”

A reference to Ginsberg’s mother Naomi who suffered from paranoid shizophrenia. It also refers to Antonin Artaud’s reaction to shock therapy and his “To Be Done with the Judgement of God,” which Solomon introduced to Ginsberg at Columbia Presbyterian Psychological Institute.

• From "who threw potato salad at CCNY lecturers on Dadaism..." to "resting briefly in catatonia"

A specific reference to Carl Solomon. Originally this final section went straight into what is now Part III, which is entirely about Carl Solomon.

• "Pilgrim's State's Rockland's and Greystone's foetid halls ..." and “I’m with you in Rockland”

These are mental institutions associated with either Ginsberg’s mother Naomi or Carl Solomon: Pilgrim State Hospital and Rockland State Hospital in New York and Greystone State Hospital in New Jersey. Ginsberg met Solomon at Columbia Presbyterian Psychological Institute, but “Rockland” was frequently substituted for “rhythmic euphony.”

• "with mother finally ******"

Ginsberg admitted that the deletion here was an expletive. He left it purposefully elliptical “to introduce appropriate element of uncertainty.” In later readings, many years after he was able to distance himself from his difficult history with his mother, he reinserted the expletive.

• "obsessed with a sudden flash of the alchemy of the use of the ellipse the catalog the meter (alt: variable measure) & the vibrating plane.” Also, from "who dreamt and made incarnate gaps in Time & Space" to "what might be left to say in time come after death."

This is a recounting of Ginsberg's discovery of his own style and the debt he owed to his strongest influences. He discovered the use of the ellipse from haiku and the shorter poetry of Ezra Pound and William Carlos Williams. "The catalog" is a reference to Walt Whitman's long line style which Ginsberg adapted. "The meter"/"variable measure" is a reference to Williams’ insistence on the necessity of measure. Though "Howl" may seem formless, and this is perhaps a purposeful effect of the style, Ginsberg claimed it was written in a concept of measure adapted from Williams’ idea of breath, the measure of lines in a poem being based on the breath in reading. Ginsberg's breath in reading, he said, happened to be longer than Williams’. "The vibrating plane" is a reference to Ginsberg's discovery of the "eyeball kick" in his study of Cézanne.

• "Pater Omnipitens Aeterna Deus"/"omnipotent, eternal father God"

This was taken directly from Cézanne.

• "eli eli lamma lamma sabachthani"

One version of the last words of Jesus: "Oh God, why have you forsaken me?" Though Ginsberg grew up in an agnostic household, he was always interested in his Jewish roots and in other concepts of spiritual transcendence. Though later Ginsberg was a devoted Buddhist, at this time Ginsberg was only beginning to study Buddhism along with other forms of spirituality. So one can read this last line as an ironic mockery of one of the dominant values of 1950's America (Christianity). But an essential aspect of Ginsberg's poetry, and Beat writing as a whole, is a genuine search for spiritual enlightenment outside of the traditional strictures of religious dogma (see for example Kerouac's relationship to Catholicism.F. Simon Grant (talk) 22:52, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

This part is not encyclopedic in nature; and it is in the article history if you need it; there is no need to paste the entire thing on the talk page; that just clutters up the discussion and makes it hard to read. Mrathel (talk) 16:17, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Tell us boss, please tell us: How do we make it encyclopedic. I'm willing to suplicate myself before your might and wisdom. But keep in mind, if you're simply bitching and deleting that's merely obnoxious. If your bitching but making a positive chage, that's how things, I don't know, improve. Isn't that what we all want? So please tell your suplicants how to make it encyclopedic.F. Simon Grant (talk) 16:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

References

Proposed merger with Howl and Other Poems

I understand the necessity to have a separate section for the "other poems," but Howl and Other Poems article is largely about Howl. I recommend either trimming that article down to just information relevant to the volume itself and the "other poems," or merging Howl into it. The latter is less desirable as I think Howl is notable enough to garner its own page.

Thoughts?

(I also posted this on the Howl and Other Poems talk page. Let me know if I should delete it from here or there.) Merpin (talk) 16:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

This is the point I've been making for months and months. But I'm not the boss of the page. Ask the boss. He'll shoot you down because he is in charge after all.F. Simon Grant (talk) 16:53, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

• Just to be clear, I really just want to make the articles separate entities. Right now Howl and Other Poems and Howl share a fairly large section word-for-word. If a merge is too drastic, how about we just edit that section down to the essentials on Howl and Other Poems and add a "main article = Howl" tag at the top? Merpin (talk) 17:09, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I was wondering how longit would before this came up again. The truth is that in order to have reason for the merge, u have to assert that one topic is not notable. Can you say that Howl the poem is not a notable subject for a wikipedia article? Can you say that Howl and Other Poems, a book of poems containing "Howl" that was the cause of a widely-publicized obscenity trial, is not notable enough to have its own article. I agree that the content of both is simular, as I didn't spend much time on these after separating them, but the point remains that if you don't believe that either article is notable on its own, you can feel free to start an AfD. But there are more than enough sources for each from non-trivial publications to justify both articles. Mrathel (talk) 17:55, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Despite Mrathel's apparant refusal to actually read comments by others, might I make a reasonable suggestion: I would argue that Howl is a level of cultural significance on par with Leaves of Grass and Wizard of Oz -- maybe not the same level, but if we are to believe the title of a recently published book of essays that Howl changed the world, it's at least in the same orbit as those two. "Howl" the poem and "Howl and Other Poems" are as important to one another, I would argue, as "Song of Myself" and Leaves of Grass. I agrued many, many months ago for the "other poems' stuff to be included on this page, but that was arguing against the lazy deletion from the Howl page of important references to important poems like "America," "Supermarket in California," and "Sunflower Sutra." That would be like saying "Song of Myself" may be important to Whitman, but "When Lilacs Last in Dooryard Bloomed" isn't. I support the two article solution. I bring up Wizard of Oz in defense of my "Specific References" section because in that article, as in many articles about culturally significant texts, there are subsidiary aticles branching off about specific references. I know with Wizard of Oz there are multiple volumes and adaptations, but if you just look at the article for the original book itself, there's a separate article about political interpretations. Basically, I'm commenting on what seems to be the tendency on this article toward reduce-and-merge. That's unfortunate considering, as I said, the cultural importance of Howl and Howl and Other Poems. So I vote for a separate article for those two and, if the "Specific References" is deemed unacceptable for this page, I will strongly lobby for its existence as a separate page because I believe it's at least as important as political interpretations of the Wizard of Oz.F. Simon Grant (talk) 22:14, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

The specific references could be done as a chart

Here's an example of how the specific references could be done as a chart. I like the look of this better than the other way. Mrruffles has replied about why SPECIFICALLY this isn't encyclopedic yet, so as as soon as I get done, I'm going to post it. If you don't want me to post it Mrruffleshaveridges, please tell me why SPECIFICALLY. I am less intelligent than you so I do need my hand to be held.F. Simon Grant (talk) 21:32, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Line	Reference
“who bared their brains to Heaven under the El and saw Mohammedan angels staggering on tenement roofs illuminated.”	This is a direct reference to told to Ginsberg by Kerouac about poet Philip Lamatia’s “celestial adventure” after reading the Koran.
"Who passed through universities with radiant cool eyes hallucinating Arkansas and Blake-light tragedies among the scholars of war" and “who thought they were only mad when Baltimore gleamed in supernatural ecstasy.”	Ginsberg had an important auditory hallucination in 1948 of William Blake reading his poems "Ah, Sunflower," "The Sick Rose," and "Little Girl Lost." Ginsberg said it revealed to him the interconnectedness of all existence. He said his drug experimentation in many ways was an attempt to recapture that feeling.
"Who were expelled from the academy for crazy & publishing obscene odes on the windows of the skull"	Part of the reason Ginsberg was expelled from Columbia University was because he wrote obscenities in his dirty dorm window. He suspected the cleaning woman of being an anti-Semite because she never cleaned his window, and he expressed this feeling in explicit terms on his window and drew an ironic swastika. He also wrote a phrase on the window implying that the president of the university had no testicles.
"... poles of Canada and Paterson ..."	Kerouac was French-Canadian from Lowell, Massachusetts; Ginsberg grew up in Paterson, New Jersey.
"who sank all night in submarine light of Bickford's floated out and sat through the stale beer afternoons in desolate Fugazzi's..."	Bickford's and Fugazzi's were New York spots where the Beats hung out. Ginsberg worked briefly at Fugazzi's.
"... Tangerian bone-grindings..." "... Tangiers to boys ..."	William S. Burroughs lived in Tangier, Morocco at the time Ginsberg wrote "Howl." He also experienced withdrawal from heroin which he wrote about in several letters to Ginsberg.
"who studied Plotinus Poe St. John of the Cross telepathy and bop kabbalah because the cosmos instinctively vibrated at their feet in Kansas"	Mystics and forms of mysticism in which Ginsberg at one time had an interest
“who disappeared into the volcanoes of Mexico.”	Both a reference to John Hoffman, a friend of Philip Lamantia and Carl Solomon, who died in Mexico, and a reference to Under the Volcano by Malcolm Lowry.
“weeping and undressing while the sirens of Los Alamos wailed them down.”	A reference to a protest staged by Judith Malina, Julian Beck, and other members of The Living Theater.

I have no problem with the references; I do think the belong in the article especially now that they have references. My only reservation would be about whether or not they need to be in a table when it might be more easily digested as text. But that is just personal taste and I will leave that up to others. Mrathel (talk) 18:57, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I think the references look much better now with the text cited; I was unaware that the origional reference section all came from the same source text, which is why i called it unencyclopedic. Had the notes been included in the origional version, I never would have deleted it. Your arduous work in creating the table is not unnoticed; good job. Mrathel (talk) 17:17, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I appreciate it. I've always had trouble with citation, so this gave me some good practice. I wanted to make sure to have more citations than just Original Draft, and I'm going to keep working on finding those.F. Simon Grant (talk) 16:55, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

References

Bickford's

Bickford's and Fugazzi's were New York spots where the Beats hung out. Ginsberg worked briefly at Fugazzi's.

Bickford's is actually a chain which still exists which was begun in New York by a New Englander had as many as 48 locations in New York for several years and still exists in New England.

So, does the phrasing imply that Bickford's is only in New York? Bickford's was a spot in New York where they hung out, but if somebody hung out at a McDonald's in New York, would you say, "McDonald's was a New York spot where the Beats hung out." "Spot" and "hung out" are a bit too informal. Any suggestions? Whoever wrote the above comment put it in bold, so he/she seems to care a lot. Some specific suggestions would be helfpul. (My tone here might sound like I'm denying I wrote that line originally, but that whole specific references section was such a big difficult task, there are many, many little imperfections I just haven't gotten around to fixing, but I'd like for it to be collaboratively agreed upon also).F. Simon Grant (talk) 17:56, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Parody

Since Ginsberg was such a great advocate of free speech and also a funny guy he would certainly have welcomed a parody, wouldn't he? Here we go, here's a link
Have fun! 217.236.174.11 (talk) 23:09, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Here is an interesting critique for those who do not only want to read praise and actually do praise pluralism and diversity regarding opinions: link
217.236.174.11 (talk) 23:52, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Howl is a collection of poems (again)

This introductory sentence is wrong:

"Howl" is a poem written by Allen Ginsberg as part of his 1956 collection of poetry titled Howl and Other Poems.

"Howl" wasn't *written* as a collection of poetry. Ferlinghetti came up with the idea of a collection long after "Howl" was written and popularized.

Allen Ginsberg never sat down and said, "I think I'll write a collection of poems called "Howl and other poems." He sat down and wrote "Howl".

"Howl" was *published* as a collection of poems. That means, after it was written, read and popularized, Ferlinghetti asked Ginsberg for some other poems to go with it and called the collection "Howl and other poems." -- Nbauman (talk) 17:25, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Angel Headed Hipstrs is also about Ginsberg's part time lover Cassady

Cassady was the angel headed hispter — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.53.165.35 (talk) 06:20, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Recent single edit added uncited assertions and gave lead an unencyclopedic tone.

This recent edit by an IP user added several uncited assertions and gave a strongly unencyclopedic tone to the article's lead paragraph. It should be reverted, but no one seems to have even challenged it. It can't be simply undone; someone has to go through the article and revert it by hand. I'm not knowledgable on poetry, so I don't feel up to that job. I'm just reporting the problem here. (Note the article is currently in "On this day..." on the Main Page and thus more visible than usual.) --Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 00:43, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Lead para

Says "Later the movement of writers became known as the Beat Generation, and included works and authors as varied as ...". However no "movement of writers" has been mentioned yet, all we have is A.G. reading to other writers. Could these other writers be those referred to - unlikely, and anyway they are a group of writers not a movement. This para needs changing, but I've no idea what to. -- SGBailey (talk) 10:47, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Not his last words

Jesus' last words were not, as the article states, "eli eli lama sabachthani". His last words in the New Testament came later after the Resurrection. Politis (talk) 01:57, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

CITATIONS and BIAS.

There are plenty of assertions without references, evidence or citations starting in the lead.

And please, this is HOWL, not Mary had a Little Lamb. The prosecution in the trial heavily relied on discredited, structuralist "new" criticism quantitative "objective" criteria and failed; it is a travesty to subject HOWL to the same thing in this Wikipaedia article. To do so is biased against Ginsberg and HOWL. Please see the James Franco film "HOWL" for more insight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lethomme (talk • contribs) 00:09, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

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Attribution

Part of the text and references was copied and pasted from Generation loss. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:40, 29 September 2016 (UTC)