Talk:House of Monok

This article was nominated for deletion on 21 April 2023. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

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	This article was accepted from this draft on 2 January 2023 by reviewer JeBonSer (talk · contribs).

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What Coat of Arms should be used for the Notable Members of the Dynasty?

As the question above says, there are only six (6) recorded coat of arms for the Monok family, not included modern/presently used coat of arms. Should only known/confirmed coat of arms be used, or should the generic remain until confirmation of the notable individual's own coat of arms is obtained and properly sourced? TheJessr (talk) 19:14, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Allegations of being a Hoax and Self-Published Sources

The majority of sources consist of information and documents from historical archives, legal papers/Church records, and a mixed list of works from various authors--primarily Hungarian historical authors.

One of the main issues listed on this article is that it is a hoax, however, the next issue with this article is that there are too many primary sources which does not corroborate with each other. If there are too many primary sources, then it could not be a hoax because it would mean there are man primary sources yet also a few secondary sources which continue to support the notions that the article is overly dependent on contemporary sources. As a result, the article should have the "Hoax" tag removed.

This article can not be self-published unless the sources because the first two--the main sources used--would not be written by living persons and are, furthermore, published by reputable sources (a national archive). Therefore, I propose that the self-published source tag be removed since government sources and Church records of this degree of age are presently public. 151.14.22.218 (talk) 18:19, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the allegations of being hoax as a result of the reasoning presented here. The self-published allegation can be judged by another user, so as to prevent biased judgements from myself--who largely developed and curated the present article from its inception. I (primarily) research and study Hungarian history, making this article in order to spread general knowledge of this relatively unknown dynasty.

I am starting to work on other various Hungarian noble families on Wikipedia and will continue to edit on such topics, but again, personal bias prevents me from removing anything that is clearly false or easily disproven via sources. I can not speak to the publisher of all the sources used, there are several, but I hope that the Self-Published Sources tag is removed.

However, I do believe that the other two tags should stay. TheJessr (talk) 21:34, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article should be deleted

1. Reliable sources cited in the article that were published in the 20th or 21th centuries (Engel, Makkai) do not mention the Monok family. 2. Scholarly works cited in the article that may mention the Monok family or its members (Nagy Iván, Ráth) were published in the 19th century. 3. 90% of the article is based on original research or self-published sources (FamilySearch, Kastélyok-utazás, Royal magazin.hu) Borsoka (talk) 01:36, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ferenc Monoki conflated sometimes with Francis Monoky, brother of Baron Nicholas II

Francis Monoky, brother of Baron Nicholas II, has no recorded sons, it is more likely that Francis II is being confused for the person of the commander Ferenc Monoki (born Before 1703, died After 1707). Sources must be provided.

The problem in question w/ context: "Among the children born to Baron Nicholas II Monoky and Anna Csetneki, the male line of the family died out in 1643 due to the early death of their son John. His brother, the vice-governor of Abaúj County, Francis Monoky, had only one son, Stephen, whose son, colonel Francis Monoky, was reportedly seen fighting alongside Prince Rákóczi in 1703. According to surviving accounts he died young, without leaving any offspring. As a result, the Monoky family estates were passed down to the daughters' branches."

There is no source I could find that states this directly. This is either original research or a lack of sourcing. If there is a source, I would genuinely find it to be in the interest of the article's development that such a source be provided.

I ask that @Kenessey Aurél, who added this statement, provide a source within the standards of Wikipedia. Conventional information seems to run contrary to the highlighted parts. 162.254.11.94 (talk) 02:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can find the information regarding the children of Francis Monoky in this charter from 1694 [1] Kenessey Aurél (talk) 07:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately this is clearly OR, this information is very valuable if it can be proved through more mainstream sources rather than a genealogy website such as FamilySearch.

The National Archive of Hungary which has previously been used to source this page does not explicitly state that Francis I had a son (Stephen) or grandson (Francis II). Do you have a better source (by Wikipedia's standards) that Lord Francis II, son of Lord Stephen, is the son of Lord Francis I, the brother of Baron Nicholas II?

I heavily suspect it is original research, but I admire your willingness to bring new information this page and commend you on your efforts to expand Wikipedia content, especially on the topic of Hungarian families. Please add sources to the standards of Wikipedia, I am asking politely because I know some of the editors here can be aggressive and I genuinely want to further the interests of Hungarian history on Wikipedia. 162.254.11.92 (talk) 14:15, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, you know this original charter is more valuable than any other book made by someone. You can do what ever you want. The facts are written on the charter. Kenessey Aurél (talk) 14:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In this book [2] you can read further about Monoky (Monaky) family at page 72. Kenessey Aurél (talk) 14:57, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]