Talk:Horseshoe Curve (Pennsylvania)

Horseshoe Curve (Pennsylvania) is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

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Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
March 13, 2012	Peer review	Reviewed
June 23, 2012	Featured article candidate	Promoted

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Removed text[edit]

I removed:

During World War II, service was suspended in response to reports that it was a prime target of Nazi saboteurs.

since it is not correct as written. The Curve was heavily used during wartime. It is possible that service was at some point briefly suspended to allow for sabotage checks, but the above is a misstatement. —Morven 00:01, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)

A similar line was put back in, but it really didn't read well. I corrected the grammar on it, but I'm not sure of its validity. Do we have a reference for it somewhere? slambo 11:53, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)

Why?[edit]

The article never says why the Horseshoe Curve was built, as opposed to a more gradual curve or a tunnel, and why it was never replaced with something that would have allowed faster travel.Mareino 21:05, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent point, the article doesn't really convey the main rationale for the curve. It added roughly three miles of track, clearly there was a rationale for this change?... I plan to develop some material for the article along these lines... There was an excellent article in Civil Engineering magazine, January 2015, page 44 (as well as other sources) that addresses the main reason for the curve. The original alignment, absent the curve, would have required an 8% grade. With the curve, it was back to a manageable less than 2%.

thanks for the comment...

Risk Engineer (talk) 16:40, 6 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Broken Link[edit]

Railroad city link is broken. --Railsmart 17:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Arnold" link leads to disambiguation page, with no clear destination --Paul Schaffert 3:18, 3 March 2006 (GMT)

Fire[edit]

It was on fire tonight as I drove by, and it looked pretty bad. Won't be able to tell it's condition until morning though. Not sure if the railroad was affected, but the hill looked like it was 1/2 burnt. --64.9.97.44 (talk) 05:50, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved Horseshoe curve → Horseshoe curve (disambiguation) and Horseshoe curve (transportation) → Horseshoe curve. Consensus on this part seems clear. Since the dab page has three entries, we probably need to keep that. Moving Horseshoe Curve (Altoona, Pennsylvania) to another title did not really receive sufficient discussion to determine consensus. If that needs moving, then renominate, but consensus seems opposed to renaming that to either Horseshoe curve or Horseshoe Curve. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:05, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

– Disambiguation of "Horseshoe Curve" is unnecessary as there are no other curve with that as its official name. Disambiguation of the general "horseshoe curve" also seems unnecessary as there is no other uses of the term. Per WP:CAPS, it is "acceptable to create two articles...with titles that differ only in capitalization". A hatnote on each pointing to the other should suffice. Niagara ^{Don't give up the ship} 21:20, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – the extra precision is very helpful here, where the titles differ only by case. The move toward minimal titles is worse here than most places. Dicklyon (talk) 02:06, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:PRECISE and WP:TWODABS. There are only two articles here; anyone landing on the wrong one could click on a hatnote and get to the other as easily and quickly as they do through the dab page, without inconveniencing a majority. Station1 (talk) 02:56, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. How it can be thought that the bare title Horseshoe Curve will be to anyone's advantage is utterly elusive. The phrase looks like something descriptive – an engineering contrivance, or something in the geographical description of valleys. Readers are not alerted by capitals, given the more or less random ways they are deployed these days (including on Wikipedia). Why not tell readers at a glance what the article is about? Seriously, think about that. Really think about it. And then give your full answer here, please. Noetica^Tea? 05:31, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sure you didn't mean it, but "Really think about it" makes you sound very condescending and could also be taken as implying that Niagara and Station had not thought before they commented. Jenks24 (talk) 04:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose—I came here through spying at Noetica's contribs page, a regular habit of mine. Uniqueness of naming is not of itself a reason to pare back a title so it's misleading and virtually useless until the poor reader visits the article to learn what the hell the real topic is. Possibly the "Altoona" bit could be excised, but you might know more about whether that's possible, Niagara. Tony (talk) 08:42, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There would be nothing wrong with removing "Altoona" from the title, seeing as it is somewhat inaccurate in that it is not in the city. Niagara ^{Don't give up the ship} 16:52, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I rather dislike the "trick" of relying on differences in capitalization to differentiate pages that are otherwise spelled the same. I think it is rather confusing and unintuitive, especially for non-native speakers. I have no opinion at this time whether either article might be the primary topic for the term -- that is a separate discussion IMO. older ≠ wiser 12:20, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Disambiguation by capitalization can be useful for certain well-known subjects, but in this case it's counterproductive. In fact, I would support a move of Horseshoe curve (transportation) to the base name. Powers ^T 15:14, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not opposed to that. It would be a fair compromise if coupled with the above proposal to remove "Altoona" from the title. Niagara ^{Don't give up the ship} 16:52, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Horseshoe Curve (Altoona, Pennsylvania) → Horseshoe Curve NOTE: Horseshoe Curve should redirect to Horseshoe curve
- Support Horseshoe curve → Horseshoe curve (disambiguation) per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:D
- Support Horseshoe curve (transportation) → Horseshoe curve per WP:TWODABS, Powers and Niagara
- Support Horseshoe Curve (Altoona, Pennsylvania) → Horseshoe Curve (Pennsylvania) per Tony and Niagara.

--Born2cycle (talk) 18:23, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Those sound like an OK alternative (even if I've never agreed with Born2cycle before). Dicklyon (talk) 19:15, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Like --Born2cycle (talk) 21:29, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I support B2C's alternatives (even if he did use that dreadful like template) as I think they would please everyone involved. Jenks24 (talk) 04:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move II[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Horseshoe Curve (Pennsylvania). Favonian (talk) 21:10, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Horseshoe Curve (Altoona, Pennsylvania) → Horseshoe Curve (Pennsylvania) – Unnecessarily precise disambiguation as there aren't any other Horseshoe Curves in Pennsylvania that named as such. Also a misnomer as the Curve is not technically in Altoona, but 5 miles west in Logan Township. Left a note at WT:NRHP, as well. Niagara ^{Don't give up the ship} 20:22, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Horseshoe Curve. This is the premier use of the name (hatnotes can direct people to Horseshoe curve easily), and thus I don't believe that it needs any disambiguation at all. Even if disambiguation is needed, we need to change it per Niagara's observation that it's not in Altoona. Nyttend (talk) 03:42, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both suggestions. The extra precision of specifying Altoona hurts nothing; this curve is associated with the nearby town of Altoona in most sources. And there are other curves named Horseshoe Curve, like the one above Millard Canyon in Southern California. The disambiguator is useful. Dicklyon (talk) 04:37, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- But how would a reader/searcher confuse "Horseshoe Curve (Pennsylvania)" with a Horseshoe Curve in California? Jenks24 (talk) 08:44, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, in the above RM you supported removing Altoona (and so did Tony). What's changed? Jenks24 (talk) 08:46, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Horseshoe Curve per Nyttend. No article on WP about Horseshoe Curve in California or anywhere else; this would be primary anyway. Station1 (talk) 07:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support original nom. It should not be moved to simply "Horseshoe Curve" because capitalisation is not enough to disambiguate. However, removing "Altoona" is reasonable because it is overly precise and, as the nom shows, it's actually incorrect. Jenks24 (talk) 08:44, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral. This level of precision does no harm. I definitely oppose any suggestion to lose the qualifiers altogether. How can "Horseshoe Curve", capped or uncapped, be of any use to a worldwide anglophone readership? Noetica^Tea? 09:28, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Because it's just an identifier, not the lead sentence. Powers ^T 20:40, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral. Makes little difference whether the disambiguating phrase is "Altoona, Pennsylvania" or "Pennsylvania". Oppose moving to simply "Horseshoe Curve". older ≠ wiser 21:44, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are other horseshoe curves (lower case) in the Black Hills, particularly on the mountainous Needles Highway.Neotarf (talk) 20:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Doubtless there are lots of horseshoe curves; there are lots of tight bends, and most of them are large enough to be noticeable. But this one is disambiguated from the others as a proper name. It is certainly the primary usage in Pennsylvania of that proper name; it appears to be the primary usage in the world. Pending evidence, I support movig all the way. JCScaliger (talk) 20:50, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support. original proposal to move Horseshoe Curve (Altoona, Pennsylvania) → Horseshoe Curve (Pennsylvania) --Pubdog (talk) 01:23, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I don't really see us gaining anything with this new name since I rarely heard this mentioned without also mentioning Altoona and generally also Pennsylvania. If we are going to move this, it should be to Horseshoe Curve (Altoona). I would love to see some digging into the commonality of the combinations of these words before a decision. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Congrats![edit]

Truly an interesting FA, unusual too - but isn't the "lake" (reservoir) in the middle man-made? Or heavily altered ?--85.210.106.83 (talk) 14:55, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! The reservoir inside the Curve was, indeed, built in 1887 to store water for Altoona. Niagara ^{Don't give up the ship} 15:46, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanking you for the info, and you're welcome! --85.211.116.140 (talk) 17:13, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Branch lines?[edit]

Two of the images show lines branching off to side on the outside of the curve, where did they go? Were they just sidings? And if so what were there purpose? Or were they part of a defunct railroad?

Why were they removed?109.151.217.160 (talk) 17:06, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The branch lines followed each creek spanned by the Curve to nearby coal mines. They were most likely abandoned/removed when the mines were closed. Niagara ^{Don't give up the ship} 18:08, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Elevations?[edit]

It would be helpful to include the elevations at the two ends of the curve.--agr (talk) 15:43, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The elevations were removed at some point; added it in. Niagara ^{Don't give up the ship} 23:04, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]