Talk:Holden Commodore (VE)

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This article is written in Australian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, program, labour (but Labor Party)) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Holden Commodore (VE) is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.

Holden Commodore (VE) has been listed as one of the Engineering and technology good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 16, 2007.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
December 17, 2006	Good article nominee	Listed
December 31, 2006	Peer review	Reviewed
January 31, 2007	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
March 5, 2007	Peer review	Reviewed
April 21, 2007	Featured article candidate	Promoted
April 18, 2020	Featured article review	Demoted
November 21, 2024	Good article nominee	Listed
Current status: Former featured article, current good article

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What.....huh?

Where did those great images? Put them back on.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Senators (talk • contribs)

The images included in the article were not free and have been removed from the Wikipedia servers. Does anybody have any pictures of the VE Commodore that they have taken them selves? If so can you please upload them. Regards OSX 00:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Simple tips to improve your article

The tips that are listed below you can read them at your on will and accord; they are not criticizing the creator or any contributors of this article in any way:

~~To much information on the opening paragraph this will confuse and discourage you readers.~~
~~Need a picture at the top of the article so the reader can automatically see the car without scrolling down.~~
~~There is a big space after the Specifications section please fix that.~~

In final, there is some edits to do but most are easy fix, a like all the pictures you have on the commodore, good work. Senators 06:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gearbox comment

In my opinion "tired old gearbox" has no place in a encyclopaedia, it's not exactly true either it has been worked over. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.224.27.136 (talk • contribs)

Generations

This is the forth generation commodore. Generations generally refer to new models. Therefore we would have VB-VL as 1st gen, VN-VS as 2nd gen, VT-VZ as 3rd and the VE as forth - Cartman02au 10:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do see your point. Perhaps it would be a good idea to remove the word 'generation' and just leave "VE Commodore is the fourteenth, and current model of the Holden Commodore." VectorD 04:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was the one who first edited in the first version of the Introductory sentence, and you are both very right about this. I did not take body shape or mechanicals of the different generations of Commodore into account at the time, and I have only now found out that groups of models had the same machinery, and so on and so forth. Thankyou for helping me to see the light, Cartman02au and VectorD. Stealthman 14:15, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Add the price in the intro paragraph

Thank you. Zephead999 01:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Theres no need for that, since we are not a sales guide. Redbook Asia Pacific is the place to go for that find of information. OSX (talk • contributions) 07:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Congrats

Good work on making the best Feature Article ever, from an Aussie/revhead POV. Fully sick.

Westralian 04:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, thanks for the support. OSX (talk • contributions) 07:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd have to concur, very nicely written, great example of wikipedia, cheers to all the editors! sseagle 17:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Engineering

Am I the only one who finds this sentence awkward? "These initial stages of development saw Holden face a dilemma." Congrats nonetheless, for the success of the article. Jlaramee 15:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Trademark? I don’t think so

In one of the pictures in the article the caption underneath the picture states that the handbrake in the VE Commodore is a trademarked icon for the VE but it is really a trademark for SAAB because that is where the design came from. I believe that someone should take this out of the article because it is false information. What do the others think?Senators^{Talk | Contribs} 00:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed the wording so it now says interchangeable, rather than trademark. By the way, I originally used that wording because I thought that the handbrake system was actually unique to the Holden. Regards OSX (talk • contributions) 04:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Handbrake design was taken from SAAB, it is clearly stated in one of the Wheels magazines.Senators^{Talk | Contribs} 23:27, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Recalls

This page could do with a recall section (ie: the new recall on the VE by Holden over the fuel line rubbing with potential to spring a leak and cause fire). Timeshift (talk) 23:28, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why do I get the feeling those advocating the removal of this section have a vested interest one way or another in this car/company? It's completely valid, cited, relevant, and there is no WP:POLICY that says it doesn't belong in an FA article. What utter hogwash. Timeshift (talk) 23:52, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please maintain approproiate style at least - it wasn't me who added the section, I was simply defending it's wholesale removal. Feel free to reword as much as you want PrinceGloria. Also, do you realised you just removed part of a quote rather than wording? I've readded the quote but removed the hyphens and replaced with commas. Timeshift (talk) 00:19, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In this particular case, the fragment mentioned should not be quoted. Suddenly breaking into first person doesn't quite fit the structure of the paragraph - please reexamine yourself. Quoting is not preferred anyway, but I'll let some other users deal with this section and hopefully successfully get rid of it. Regards, PrinceGloria (talk) 00:24, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Quoting is not preferred? Where on earth do you get your WP:POLICIES from? Is it a full moon today? Timeshift (talk) 00:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sales figures incorrect as they include VZ

The sales figures listed towards the bottom of the article are incorrect, because they include the VZ wagon as well. Davez621 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:47, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Click on the footnote in the heading of the "Australian sales" table and it will direct you to the note stating: "Sales figures cover shifted units of VE sedans and VZ Commodore station wagons, along with Commodore-based HSV-modified vehicles." OSX (talk • contributions) 11:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bias

The VE Commodore was well received in the Australian market, where it has consistently outsold rivals in the large car segment. Its position as Australia's outright best selling car was challenged in 2007 by the Toyota Corolla in the face of increasing petrol prices, and later by the launch of an all-new model. However, as petrol prices have stabilised, the Commodore has generally maintained a consistent lead over the Corolla and sales are nearly double that of its closest segment competitor, the Ford Falcon.

This text in the Launch, Sales and Reception section in the paragraph sounds quite biased to the Holden Commodore. For example:

1. Australian petrol prices (let alone Global petrol prices) have not stabilised, and have not been stable for roughly a decade.

2. Because of the new FG Falcon coming out, you can not say that the sales are nearly double, rather than saying they have been nearly double with the previous BF Falcon model, or something along the lines of that.

HarrisonB - Talk 04:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're more than welcome to make the appropriate amendments, provided that they are correctly formated and referenced. OSX (talk • contributions) 00:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I would not call it "biased", but rather outdated. After all, it was added about a year ago. OSX (talk • contributions) 02:30, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Peacock Phrase

I won't waste my time trying to edit this as the Owner of this page will resist, but I would point out that the phrase superior handling is a peacock phrase - superior to what, in any case, and demonstrably not superior to its main rival. eg (these aren't necessarily very up to date, they are merely the more authoritative representatives of the first ten hits for the google search : commodore falcon handling) '"By almost every measure, the Falcon steers, stops, rides, and handles somewhat better than the Commodore. " http://editorial.carsales.com.au/car-review/2757479.aspx "While it's true that the Falcon can navigate the apex of a corner slightly better than its rival, both vehicles fire out of corners with colossal force, yet a good deal of poise. The independent rear suspension on the Ford was always top notch, and now the Holden has a new rig which gives it a much better feel while cornering under higher throttle inputs." http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/holden-commodore-ss-v-vs-ford-falcon-xr6-turbo-review.htm "Faced with the sort of road that asks the most of a car's dynamics and drivetrain – tight corners, humps, potholes and the requirement to dive from throttle to brakes – and the results are a mixed bag. The superiority of the VE Commodore's chassis is absolute, with finely honed steering that is accurate and loaded with precision feedback, huge rear-end grip even on choppy surfaces, and seemingly limitless amounts of suspension travel.....Otherwise, the Falcon's dynamic abilities are difficult to fault. The BFII steers as well as the BA ever did, meaning heavy at parking speeds but beautifully weighted on the move. The rear is responsive to throttle inputs, understeer is minimal, and bodyroll sufficiently contained. In all, the XT reacts like a classic rear-driven, but slightly soft sedan without the overt power to get into trouble." http://www.wheelsmag.com.au/wheels/site/articleIDs/D515D1CA3DED79D1CA257338000CD9DF

SO that is 2:1 in favour of Falcon. So, SUPERIOR?

On a technical level I would point out that exactly 50/50 weight distribution is not invariably the optimum. It is certainly better than 30/70 in most applications. Not many cars are 30/70. For example in this simulation http://members.optusnet.com.au/greglocock/5050.htm the exact optimum is NOT 50/50, and is not the same for different power to weight ratios. The programs I used there were not full-on professional products, but the results seem quite robust.

I realise that Holden were pushing the 50/50 weight distribution line in their launch material, that is why the journos keep banging on about it. Incidentally, challenge for young players. What IS the actual weight distribution of a Commodore?

That is rather a long section to write about one word, but there ya go. Greg Locock (talk) 02:04, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I apologise I haven't commented sooner but I've only just noticed your post on the talk page here. 50/50 weight distribution means even weight over the front and rear. If a greater proportion of weight was placed over the front or rear, it would lead to a greater tendency to under/oversteer. Even weight balance would theoretically lead to neutral handling characteristics. Lap times are a whole different kettle of fish however and introduce a variety of different factors. A 47/53 F/R weight distribution could very well lead to better lap times but trying to achieve this in a family 4-door sedan would most likely mean compromises in packaging and/or cost. Anyway, the main point was not to define an optimal weight distribution and I'm sure you're aware there is no such thing as an absolute optimal weight distribution under all conditions.

I think you have misconstrued the point of the phrase. In this case, "superior" is not used to mean 'the best' but merely 'better than.' The article is explaining the engineering developments of the VE over the previous VZ Commodore, so the logical comparison for the "superior handling" phrase is the VZ (or possibly compared to a car with a large proportion of weight over the front wheels since the article mentions weight being moved rearwards for VE). No mention is made of the Ford Falcon or any other rivals in the 'History of development' sub-section. In any case, I thought we had reached an agreement on revised wording. VectorD (talk) 10:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Trouble is one would assume that every aspect of a car is at leats equal to if not superior to its predecessor, so it still doesn't pass the sniff test. At least, every car I have worked on that has been based on a previous model (Esprit, Montego, Rover SD1, Omega (wink), Corvette, Falcon) has been faster, cheaper, quieter, better handling etc, otherwise our managers would string us up. Greglocock (talk) 10:15, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

True, cars tend to be better with each generation (with a few exceptions), but an article should specifically mention which areas are improved and why. If the article just said a new model was improved or assumed the reader knew, it wouldn't be very informative. VectorD (talk) 11:18, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Harsh wording

Quote: "The SV6 shares its appearance with the SS (pictured) and up-spec SS V, but misses out on the high-performance powertrain."

In my opinion saying the SV6 "missed out" on the V8 drivetrain is a bit misleading, that model was never intended to have the V8 so how is it missing out? The SV6 is giving the sporty design of the SS to the buyers of the more practical V6. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.194.127.34 (talk • contribs) 01:31, December 4, 2008

Sorry about the misleading caption. I have now changed it slightly to say, "The SV6 shares its appearance with the SS (pictured) and up-spec SS V, but is fitted with the High Output V6 engine as opposed to the V8 fitted to the SS and SS V." OSX (talk • contributions) 05:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Article

Thanks, congrats on writing probably one the highest quality articles on wikipedia. Novastorm (talk) 20:57, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sales

There seems to be a discrepancy between VFCATS's yearly sales and those of mine (see complete table).

2007: 57,306 (my data); 57,307 (VFACTS; [1]) Wheels magazine published a wrong figure (5751 instead of 5752; [2]).
2008: 51,094 (my data); 57,093 (VFACTS; [3])

I cannot however, see where we (or VFACTS) have gone wrong in 2008 though. OSX (talk • contributions) 07:39, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, there was some sort of error on VFACTS part. Either one of the monthly totals is wrong or the yearly figure is wrong. Perhaps VFACTS double counted in one month and corrected it for the yearly figure. The difference isn't large. VectorD (talk) 02:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

E85 Flex Fuel

Shouldn't the engine table in the Powertrains section mention that the newer engines are flex-fuel capable? All I can see is petrol and Autogas. --Pineapple Fez 01:05, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Probably, but I have not updated this article in a while. OSX (talk • contributions) 01:06, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Exports to Middle East

Is the article still accurate? According to GoAuto 589 p6 "QUALITY and service problems played a large role in undermining what had been a successful GM Holden push into Middle Eastern markets, according to one of the company’s senior purchasing executives.

“We had the Middle East business, anchored in Melbourne, and we lost that; we lost it because of poor quality,” said GM Holden’s Michael Filazzola. “It was also in the way we way we actually executed the program. That gave us a bit of a realisation that the rest of the world has passed us by.” He said GMH executives thought they were doing a good job when they were not."

Greglocock (talk) 05:31, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Move Lumina model information

Hi, I have removed this from the Lumina article since this information pertains to the rebadged as a Holden Commodore VE (Chevrolet Lumina). If you could incorporate this into the article that would great. Thanks!VX1NG (talk) 18:55, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"In the middle-east, the Lumina was offered in four different trims: LS (Omega), LTZ (Berlina), S (SV6) and SS (SS). The LTZ and S comes standard with a 3.6L Alloytec V6 and a 6-speed automatic transmission for the S and 4-speed for the LTZ, while the SS comes standard with 6.0L Alloytec V8 with the option of Active Fuel management. A 6-speed manual is standard with the option of a 6-speed Automatic on SS. The LTZ was the luxury model, while the S and SS models focused on sportiness."

Move discussion in progress

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FAR needed

There is a good deal of uncited text, and this article is not in compliance with WP:NOTPRICE. Unless someone can cite the article, and correct the policy issues, this FA (promoted in 2007) should be submitted to Featured article review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:08, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

Passed. Averageuntitleduser (talk) 16:14, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Holden Commodore (VE)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: 750h+ (talk · contribs) 13:33, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Averageuntitleduser (talk · contribs) 04:56, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Howdy! I hope to have comments out in a few days. Averageuntitleduser (talk) 04:56, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Averageuntitleduser: ? 750 h+ 15:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@750h+: Apologies, been having a busy week. I've made some progress on the review though, and I have all of today and this weekend to prioritize it! It is on track to be done today or tomorrow. Thanks for sticking with me! Averageuntitleduser (talk) 19:02, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well-written

In the seven years of development — suggest "During its seven years of development" or "Across its seven..."
Link "chassis" and "Opel".
which would also serve as the basis for several upcoming GM vehicles. — perhaps: "which also served as the basis for several later GM vehicles".
Mooney advocated for a reduction of panel gaps by an 0.5 millimetres (0.020 in) over previous targets. — remove "an".
comprising its headlights, bumpers, airbag sensors and other accessory components. — perhaps: "comprising its accessory components such as headlights, bumpers and airbag sensors".
"This production method", "This process", "This modular construction", and "This production technique" all seem to refer to the same idea. Of course, you don't have to use one phrase exclusively, but I suggest consolidating how you refer to the production method. Also, would it be possible to vary the starts of one or two of these sentences?
applied to the interior where fundamentally — add comma after "interior".
creating radically varied interior look and feel without much higher costs. — "look and feel" seems slightly redundant. Suggest: "creating radically varied interiors without much higher costs."
Up to 90 per cent of VZ wagons were bought by fleet companies and Holden desired to attract more retail customers and the decision was made to develop a lower, sportier wagon as an alternative to SUVs. — add comma after "companies". Also suggest: "...customers; they decided to develop a lower, sportier wagon".
the coupe utility version version — you know what to do.
In July 2006, Holden claimed that the VE featured one of the best body structures globally. An extensive series of assessments, comprising over 5,000 simulated tests and 79 live barrier tests, led to Holden announcing that the Commodore had one of the best body structures globally. — these two sentences state some of the same information. Suggest for the second sentence: "They cited an extensive series of assessments..."
any issues or faults — one of these can be removed.

Round 2:

first introduced on the VL — Suggest: "in the VL"
due to the possibility that the bi-fuel Commodores may have been fitted with undersized O-rings in the service valve hand tap — surround with commas.
It would be worth listing the recalls in chronological order.
Nevertheless, the reduced fuel consumption does however, signify a trade-off — Suggest: "Nevertheless, the reduced fuel consumption signifies..."
"Launched in", "Debuting in", "Released on", "Available from", "Unveiled on". Revise for WP:ELEVAR.
A broad complaint, but I feel the article could be clearer on what the sedan, Sportwagon, and Ute are, as well as how they relate to the car models. I gather that the sedan, Sportwagon, and Ute are first and foremost car body types. But the article only refers to them as body types once, and sometimes refers to them as "models", "versions", and "variants", which can become confusing when discussing the models (e.g. the Omega, SV6, and VE SS) later on. Would it be possible to adjust some terminology in this way? I think it might also help to state early in each of the models's subsections which body types they were available as, if the sourcing is available; e.g. the Omega, SV6, and VE SS were available as all three, and the Berlina and Calais were available as all but the Ute. Admittedly, I know very little about car manufacturing and am interested to hear your thoughts on this.
Remove the extra equal sign in the references section header.
I note that, if you want to improve the article further, there is a lot of overlap between the "Model year changes" and "Powertrains" sections, and that the "(see above)" links are a bit unconventional. My first instinct is to reorder the two sections somehow to let the "Powertrains" section go into further detail, but I am not sure. And I will not hold up the review for this; there isn't much precedent for how to layout this information, and the article already does well enough.

Verifiable with no original research

Sources are consistently of high quality. Many regional and local newspapers or automotive magazines. GoAuto is used often, and its articles and authors give a good impression.

Spot-check

Fallah, Alborz (3 August 2006). "Holden VE Ute and Wagon". Drive. Fairfax Media. Retrieved 29 August 2024.
- Looks good. Y
Hagon, Toby (17 July 2006). "Inside the VE Commodore". The Sydney Morning Herald. Retrieved 30 August 2024.
- Looks good. Y
Hinchliffe, Mark (1 September 2007). "Ute earned a place in our history". The Courier-Mail.
- Looks good. Y
Newton, Bruce (20 September 2006). "Holden Calais V V8". Drive. Fairfax Media. Archived from the original on 22 July 2011. Retrieved 12 January 2007.
- AFM looks good, but where's the 10 kW coming from?
Fallah, Alborz (19 October 2006). "Holden Dual Fuel now in VE range LPG". Drive. Fairfax Media. Retrieved 1 September 2024.
- Looks good, but where's the valve seat bit?
Dowling, Joshua (11 September 2010). "Pontiac GXP lives on as Holden Redline". Carsales. Retrieved 28 October 2024.
- Looks good alongside the other reference. Y
"Holden reinvents the (spare) wheel". Carsales. 20 January 2009. Retrieved 21 January 2009.
- Looks good. Y
"Smaller cars power ahead". CarsGuide. 9 February 2007. Archived from the original on 21 July 2011. Retrieved 22 January 2008.
- Looks good alongside the other references. Y

Broad in its coverage

No issues here.

Neutral

After reading through the article, I find no major issues. Particularly, criticism of certain design decisions seem to be given due weight.

Stable

No recent edit wars or content disputes.

Illustrated

Illustrated plentifully. All images are public domain or Creative Commons and add to the reader's understanding.

Summary

@750h+: Impressive work on the article. There is a lot of content to manage, and it reads quite smoothly. I've listed prose suggestions for the first few sections. I now only need to read "Powertrains", "Models", and "Model year changes" (the last two sections read well). Many suggestions are copyedits so far, but I am still gathering thoughts on the overall layout. Very sorry that comments are taking this long; it is on me. Averageuntitleduser (talk) 05:54, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the review! Will address soon. I do give full credit for the article to OSX, who brought this article to FA status in 2007 and had it there for 13 years until its delisting in 2020. (OSX left Wikipedia in 2016 following a dispute on Commons.) 750 h+ 10:19, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Averageuntitleduser: i've addressed your first few concerns! 750 h+ 08:40, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@750h+: Sounds good. I'm making progress and have time today to finish my comments! Averageuntitleduser (talk) 12:14, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Averageuntitleduser: ? 750 h+ 13:22, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@750h+: Alright, I've finished my last comments! I apologize being so untimely throughout this review, and for leaving you on edge for so long. You are right to call me out. Still, I really enjoyed reading this article, and your commitment to sourcing and technical detail is very evident. Lovely work renewing what OSX started! Averageuntitleduser (talk) 04:24, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Averageuntitleduser: all done. 750 h+ 06:39, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The changes look good! Happy to pass. Averageuntitleduser (talk) 16:12, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.