Talk:Helianthus

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As a redirect from the word "sunflower"

This is to notify potential future editors of the discussion which took place recently regarding the decision to have the search term "sunflower" redirect to this article rather than to the article on Helianthus annuus directly, even though that is likely where most people searching on the term "sunflower" are ultimately headed. In the botanical sense, there are in fact many "sunflowers", and they all belong to the genus Helianthus, though not all of them closely resemble the stereotypical common sunflower. As an encyclopedia, it makes sense for readers, and perhaps especially those who are ignorant of the subject, to be taken to the article that really means what they have said they are searching for, and then allow them to quickly get to the article they are actually looking for, possibly learning along the way something about the nature of their search target. And as an encyclopedia, we are doing no one any good by cultivating or acquiescing to an incorrect though common belief that, for example, there is only one species of sunflower when there actually are many. And so here we now stand: we have a redirect from the word "sunflower" to the [botanically] correct article on the sunflowers generally, and a link in the lead paragraph to the species of sunflower which the reader was most probably trying to find in the first place. And for an encyclopedia, this truly seems to make the most sense. KDS4444^Talk 05:17, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Then why don't you just use the About template? Obviously! "...linking the reader to other articles with similar titles or concepts that they may have been seeking instead." In this case, both similar title AND concept, it fits perfectly. Not using it is just picking on people as if they have to know scientific names off birth. 2001:8A0:4329:DD01:21AE:124D:7C23:1382 (talk) 16:57, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Scarce information

Why is there so little information on sunflower? Not just here, but anywhere. What parts are edible? History, popular uses etc. I can't find this info anywhere online. Is it poisonous? Safe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.47.119.49 (talk) 20:12, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Because there is more information in the Helianthis annuus article https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Helianthus_annuus StinkBreath (talk) 14:46, 18 August 2015 (UTC)StinkBreath[reply]

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Ukraine

Since the conflict in Ukraine started about 2 weeks ago I've noticed the sunflower has become more or less a symbol to show support for Ukraine. Could this be mentioned here? MightyArms (talk) 23:48, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree and Done with this edit. Zefr (talk) 01:56, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 14 March 2022

This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 31 March 2022. The result of the move review was Relisted.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was proposed in this section that Helianthus be renamed and moved to Sunflower.

result:
No consensus. See no agreement below to rename this article. Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; good health to all! P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 16:38, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Move logs: current title · target title

This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}

Result:
No consensus. See no agreement below to rename this article. Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; good health to all! P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 16:38, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Helianthus → Sunflower – Based on the discussion in Talk:Common sunflower#Requested move 1 March 2022. Showiecz (talk) 17:05, 14 March 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. No such user (talk) 12:20, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Vacated close

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

The result of the move request was: MOVED as proposed. I leave to others more experienced than me the heavy task of merging, but it's clear that this is what people want. In the future, I would very highly recommend actually summarizing or at least copy-pasting the reasoning from external discussions rather than simply linking it. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 21:50, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support and merge per previous consensus at Talk:Common sunflower#Requested move 1 March 2022. Zefr (talk) 18:08, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per previous discussion. YorkshireExpat (talk) 19:29, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Rreagan007 (talk) 21:30, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Unmodified "sunflower" refers more frequently to Helianthus annuus than to the genus as a whole. — AjaxSmack 14:54, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. In addition to AjaxSmack's point about how "sunflower" almost invariably refers specifically to Helianthus annuus, not all members of Helianthus are referred to as "sunflowers," i.e., Helianthus tuberosus.--Mr Fink (talk) 15:01, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I wonder if any of the other Helianthi are referred to unadorned as "sunflower". I don't recall Jerusalem artichoke ever being called one. — AjaxSmack 15:22, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- @AjaxSmack and Apokryltaros: Did you read the previous discussion at Helianthus annuus or look at the common names of species in genus Helianthus? YorkshireExpat (talk) 19:03, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - @YorkshireExpat:, yes, I read the discussion to move Helianthus annuus to "Common sunflower," but while I agree with the outcome there, I don't see why it's necessary redirect the more formal genus name to "sunflower" even though not all members of genus are referred to as "sunflower."--Mr Fink (talk) 23:48, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    - I did as well. Firstly, despite the implications assertions at Talk:Common sunflower, "common sunflower" is not the common name (in the Wikipedia sense) of Helianthus annuus; it's simply "sunflower". A quick look at web usage (e.g. Google Books) can confirm this. Secondly, I don't see a single common name of any of the species in genus Helianthus called simply "sunflower"; they have modified names like "rough woodland sunflower" and "Florida sunflower" and these are partial title matches (where " there is no significant risk of confusion"). Thirdly, even with the numerous other species of Helianthus, the importance of Helianthus annuus outweighs them all — it is the primary topic for the name "sunflower", and calling this article "sunflower" is misleading. — AjaxSmack 23:52, 16 March 2022 (UTC) That the major topics of sunflower seeds and sunflower oil both refer to H. annuus supports this. — AjaxSmack 01:05, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      - @AjaxSmack: well then some of the species pages need work. Look at the lead for Jerusalem artichoke and you will find the follwing:

'The Jerusalem artichoke (Helianthus tuberosus), also called sunroot, sunchoke, wild sunflower, topinambur, or earth apple, is a species of sunflower native to central North America.'

So here it is clear that the genus is the thing being called sunflower.

I might compare it to banana, for instance, which, in common parlance, normally refers to the Cavendish banana, and yet the wikipedia titles do not reflect this. YorkshireExpat (talk) 17:43, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this article might need some work too because the intro reads "The common names "sunflower" and "common sunflower" typically refer to the popular annual species Helianthus annuus,..." — AjaxSmack 20:05, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Typically doing a lot of work there ;) YorkshireExpat (talk) 21:41, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 01:26, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Although there probably isn't a "perfect" definition of "sunflower", the article does a good job of distinguishing the genus from Helianthus annuus so we can only expect an article title (no matter what we pick) to do so much work. And having Sunflower be the genus is probably as good a choice as any. Kingdon (talk) 07:12, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, the group as a whole does not seem to be called sunflowers. SilverTiger12 (talk) 21:28, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: apart from my general preference for the use botanical name for article titles, (unspecified) sunflower to me denotes Helianthus annuus, a few plants in Helianthus have other vernacular names (Jerusalem artichoke, Texas blueweed), and some plants in other genera (e.g. Helianthella, Sanvitalia, Bahiopsis and Viguiera) can be referred to as sunflowers. Lavateraguy (talk) 21:08, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I that is the case, then Sunflower should redirect to Common sunflower. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:36, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Sunflower is imprecise and ambiguous as it may refer to the genus Helianthus as a whole or the important agricultural species, Helianthus annuus. Helianthus and Helianthus annuus are titles that satisfy the article title criterion WP:PRECISION. Scientific name titles are WP:CONSISTENTly used for over 99% of plant articles on Wikipedia (following WP:FLORA). The title criterion of CONCISION is basically a wash (Helianthus is one character longer than "sunflower"). I will concede that "sunflower" is more RECOGNIZABLE than Helianthus or Helianthus annuus (however WP:COMMONNAME does say "ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources"). NATURALNESS is harder to assess; I'm not certain what subject (species or genus) readers searching for "sunflower" are wanting to read about, but I suspect it's the species (the genus article does get more pageviews, but that is affected by having "sunflower" redirect there). Looking at the incoming links to sunflower, it appears that editors are NATURALly linking with the expectation that it refers to the cultivated species (there are a large number of links to articles about towns and political subdivisions where sunflowers are mentioned as an agricultural product; there are very few incoming links to parks and natural areas in North America where "sunflower" might be expected to refer to various species growing in the wild). Plantdrew (talk) 02:17, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wiki Education assignment: Plant Behavior 2022

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