Talk:Hejaz railway

earlier comments

I'm curious why this article was merged to this name, which seems to be the least used transliteration of the name on Google -

• "Hijaz Railway" - 48 hits
• "Hedjaz Railway" - 248 hits
• "Hejaz Railway" - 1520 hits

I'd suggest "Hedjaz" (as the form most commonly used at the time of construction) or "Hejaz" (most common today) would be more appropriate if the aim is for people to find this article. -- Arwel 20:33, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I get:

• "hijaz railway" - 434
• "hedjaz railway" - 248
• "hejaz railway" - 1520 hits

Probably just a Google thing.

There was an article called Hijaz line, which I expanded. I live in Jeddah, which is in the Hijaz, and Hijaz is the common spelling in English consular documents etc. as well as the spelling used by the Saudis themselves when writing in English. When I renamed it to Hijaz railway I discovered there was already another article, so I merged the better parts. I have no problem if anybody wants to move it to Hejaz railway. Probably logical, since there is also a Hejaz article. The only comprehensive book on the railway uses the spelling Hedjaz, which is a bit old-fashioned. Quite off-topic, but I've got a Hijaz/Hejaz rail-pin on the desk in front of me right now. Anjouli 20:48, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

And I've moved it. You are right of course. Anjouli 20:56, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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I'm not sure how but the page history of this article seems to have been lost. I wrote the innitial entry to this article some time ago G-Man 18:01, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Ok it had been merged from Hedjas Railway instead of being moved, so I moved that here to avoid losing the history G-Man 18:08, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

• "Hedjas" is the old German spelling. Maybe some justification since the Germans helped build it. Anjouli 06:01, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The article started out as the Hedjaz railway, then got merged into another article on the Hijaz railway, hence the comment above about the most common transliterations, then it was moved back to Hedjaz railway and now has been moved to Hejaz railway. I don't mind which we finally settle on as long as we don't have long chains of REDIRECTs since I believe double-redirects don't work. Arwel 18:54, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

And I have now edited all the other transliterations to redirect directly to Hejaz_railway. Arwel 19:01, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Hejaz is probably the best place, as we have a Hejaz article. I thought that was where I left it after the last edit, but it seems to have been all around the houses since then. Anjouli 05:53, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

After a closer inspection of the history, I see my rename to "Hejaz" seems to have vanished and somehow it got back to "Hedjaz". How did that happen? Anjouli 05:59, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I think it should go back to Hijaz. Google shows that that's more common (over 46000 English-language hits as opposed to 42000 for Hejaz; it's also more accurate and here in Syria at least it seems to be more commonly used for the railway.

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As to the metal sleepers used in some areas, the stealing of wooden ones wasn't necessarily the only reason. In many climates wood does not survive at all well, and thus other materials are often used -- iron or steel being the most practicable at the time of construction of most narrow gauge railways. This is the reason for them being used on the Eritrean Railway, for example. These days, concrete would of course be used. --Morven 08:34, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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"Although justified as a "religious railway" to aid the Hajj pilgrimage, its true purpose was probably to cement the Ottoman grip on the region and foster trade between Damascus and Medina."

So now we're ascribing motives to the Ottomans for building this and saying that they had negative intentions relative to the Arabs. How do you know what its "true purpose" was?

• • ..err, because it's the shared opinion of most historians of the period and mentioned in almost all written texts about the railway? 212.93.160.7 19:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Lack of continuation to Mecca

I thought that the main reason for this was that Abdul Hamid II was overthrown and his successor wasn't as enthusiastic about the whole Hejaz railway project. What do reliable sources say? -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 21:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Route details

I noticed that the article [Hedschasbahn] on the German Wikipedia has much more detailed route information. I translated one of the tables. Any opinions whether these route-tables, and iother info from the German article, may be a useful addition here?

sorry forgot to sign! 17:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Another try. Bleddynefans (talk) 17:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was move. Jafeluv (talk) 09:57, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

unititled comments

Hejaz railway → Hejaz Railway — It will be more appropriate for the article to have a proper name as a title. Currently, that proper name redirects to this article. In other words, the request if for an interchanged content, with the proper name holding the main article, and this article holding a redirect link. Joey80 (talk) 02:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

• Support so capped in Seven Pillars of Wisdom. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:08, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Definition

There seems to be some confusion about the definition of the term Hejaz Railway. This article defines it as the section from Damascus to Medina but the article İstanbul Haydarpaşa Terminal defines it as the entire railway from Istanbul to Medina. Can anyone clarify this? Biscuittin (talk) 16:26, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

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Requested move 1 September 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved all DrStrauss talk 12:30, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

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Hejaz Railway → Hejaz railway – Per our MOS, article name is not a company or proper noun, plus most sources use lowercase. {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 22:05, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 ^{(talk, contribs)} 02:01, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

• @Checkingfax: There was a former RM above from 8 years ago. New discussion is therefore needed. If consensus is to use a lowercase "r" in "railway", then Category:Hejaz Railway and Template:Hejaz Railway should be moved to Category:Hejaz railway and Template:Hejaz railway respectively for consistency. GeoffreyT2000 ^{(talk, contribs)} 02:06, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
• Support – as requestor to bring article title into continuity compliance with 2017 community consensus of MOS:TITLES. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 20:47, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
• Support – Not routinely capped in sources, so not here, per MOS:CAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 15:31, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Identify stations

We should, and then link them. I'll try and start it here. I'm combining the names from the line plan/sketch + list from the lead + infobox map. Very helpful: this map from Saleh Musa Daradkeh, The Hijaz Railway pp. 205-208.

In the end we should primarily have the old, original Ottoman stations with the names used before WWI. NB: did the Ottomans use different transliterations for the various European languages, or did they offer just French, or maybe English or German? Next to the original names we can place the current Arabic ones, but separately. Modern additional branch lines should also be marked differently.

This list should be processed together with the History of the Hajj page, as the railway stations and the Syrian hajj route largely overlap and present similar identification and linking issues (see Talk:History of the Hajj#Darb el-Hajj needs own article + more info here).

[Many hours later: I have removed the material after inserting it into the article :) ] Arminden (talk) 13:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Infobox map ("The railway in 1908")

It should be redone:

1. The heading is "The railway in 1908", but on the map it says "1914". Which one is it? During WWI a lot of branch lines were added.
2. It is full of mistakes (see topic here-above: badly mistead names, probable repetition etc.).
3. It is in (more or less) Italian.
4. The German article has a partially better version, but A. it's in German, and B. only this one has a very useful inset map for Damascus-Daraa section.

Arminden (talk) 13:52, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Aqaba area: stations are problematic

James Nicholson, author of a book on the subject ("The Hejaz Railway"; probably self-edited, or not published yet?) has a website with excellent documentation (professional concept and photos, good and rigurous explanations) on the southern part of the now Saudi segment. He seems to also use the original, Ottoman-period spelling, which is needed here. However, his list of stations differs from the one in this article's own route plan. I call "route plan" the vertical line at the top of the page with the rail line's essential features marked on it. It is particularly problematic for the short segment in the mountainous stretch near Aqaba, where Nicholson has only one station and the page's own plan has three, none of which has the same name as Nicholson's. The next station to the S also differs in name, but only partially, so probably the same (both names begin with Aqaba, 'pass' or 'ascent'). Maybe the plan includes small water stations (old locomotives there probably very "thirsty"), or maybe Jordan still uses that section and has added new stations in recent times. Anyone? Arminden (talk) 13:47, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Solved, using UK source (hand-typed!).

James Nicholson did have his book published in 2005. Arminden (talk) 18:07, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Sources are saying different things

The BBC https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20180716-the-railway-that-united-islam says "Ordered by Sultan Abdul Hamid II in 1900"

UNESCO https://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/6026/ says, Hejaz Railway was built on the order of Ottoman ruler Sultan Abdulhameed II on September 1st 1909 " Hummusapiens (talk) 07:59, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Which source do I listen to? Is UNESCO better than BBC? Hummusapiens (talk) 07:59, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

The dates get confusing because of the multiple different calendars being used the time, though it looks like the 1909 date in the UNESCO document is a typo: 5 Jumada I 1318 AH would map to 30 August/1 September 1900 (the new day starts at sunset). In the third paragraph, UNESCO dates the Sultan's degree to March 1900 CE/1318 AH, which would be correct in the Hijri lunar calendar. The list of important dates, however, look like they're using the Rumi calendar for the first five dates and then the Hijri calendar after that. According to this article used on the Arabic wiki version of the article, notes 1 September 1900 AD as the date of a celebration to mark the start of work on the line from Damascus to Darʿa. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 15:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I see thank you! So 1900 it is. I'm surprised by UNESCO... I reckoned they'd be more careful. Either way, thanks Carter. Hummusapiens (talk) 08:10, 1 August 2024 (UTC)