Talk:Heard 'Em Say

Heard 'Em Say has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Heard 'Em Say is part of the Late Registration series, a good topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
June 12, 2022	Good article nominee	Listed
September 21, 2022	Good topic candidate	Promoted

Current status: Good article

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Video

What is said in the article about the video on MTV very well may be true, but I originally saw the video on VH1's Top 20 Countdown that was black and white and mostly animated. This was later replaced on the Countdown by the department store version. Could somebody please inform me? Omnijohn 03:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On my local MTV they showed the store version first, then the cartoon one later. It seems that neither video was actually pulled, both were shown quite a lot, although Kanye West seemed to want to make the second one into the "official" video. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.146.47.250 (talk) 02:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Why was it pulled?

Why was the Gondry version pulled from MTV? Was it the kids getting in bed with Kanye in the end? The video was otherwise good, but Gondry's done far better before.

As far as I know, it was changed purely because Kanye West was unhappy with the tone of the original video, he wanted something more gritty, hence the second video (the black and white animation by Plympton). Ironically, West didn't like the second one either, and said he regretted doing both of the videos!

Personally I absolutely loved the first video, I thought it was a great contrast to the lyrics (sweet kids in the picture, but the song talks about terrible things). It was also a nice change from the usual adult-themed hip hop videos, this had a real innocence to it that referenced the sweet pianos. Innocence can be a very powerful theme if you use it correctly, and I think the first video used it correctly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.146.47.250 (talk) 02:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Kanye West is great

Kanye West says; "i know the government administered aids" what evidence is there that it's man-made? I hate it when people say "the government put drugs and guns into the communities." he is great, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.175.216 (talk) 23:56, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In the late 1940s, to test the potency of penicillin, U.S. government scientists purposefully infected over 700 uninformed Guatemalan citizens with syphilis. Obama apologized to the President of Guatemala regarding this in the first week of October 2010. Just saying. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.156.188.91 (talk) 16:08, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Heard 'Em Say/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: ErnestKrause (talk · contribs) 16:12, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Start review. This may take a couple of days. To get things started, the second sentence in Background is 46 words long and could be split into two sentences; it currently starts with the words: "He and Levine had first collaborated...". ErnestKrause (talk) 16:12, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have implemented the above change, to begin work before the review really kicks off. --K. Peake 20:58, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Music video section: Start with second half of article

(1) Background section. The mention of a Christmas theme to either of these two videos is a little difficult to see in either version of these videos even though it is repeated several times here. I do see a spiritual side to this, maybe a kids-in-toyland side to the original version of this video, though that is a bit different. Macys on Herald Square is extensively decorated at holiday time, and none of that is seen in the video. For example, the main lobby on the Broadway entrance is usually decorated with dozens of Christmas trees inside, though none of them appear in this video. No Christmas trees, no holiday ornaments, no reindeer, etc. This section does later mention a 'Mary Poppins' theme inspiration and that seems like it might be a closer fit.

(2) The background section then states that the filming may have been in October, which makes much more sense, and is very different from Macys in December. The Macys in Herald Square is well-known for its extensive and numerous holiday window displays, though of these are present in the video. That moves viewers even further from a Christmas feeling in the video. No snow on the ground either does not help a "Christmas" feeling in this video.

Done, apart from for any quotes mentioning Christmas since these are not about the synopsis itself. --K. Peake 14:13, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(3) When you discuss 'hardcore' in this section, my suggestion would be to reverse those two sentence into the opposite sequence. Define the term 'hardcore' first as "Gondry wanted to fill a department store with homeless people", which is the context he wished to apply. That is, define the term before discussing it in this paragraph.

Done and reworded numerous parts --K. Peake 14:13, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(4) Your turn of phrase is not familiar to me when you state: "the single was pulled forward to a later date...". Usually it is the other way round, that is, one pulls a date forward to an earlier date. Possibly check this wording.

Done, though I inherited this from another user and must have missed it; looks like the opposite phrasing is supposed to be here. --K. Peake 14:13, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(5) The material on the second video is generally well-written and interesting. Regarding your mention of a Christmas feel to it, by own inclination would describe it as spiritual with an 'angels-and-devils' theme associated with it. There seems a lack of a Christmas feel, and again, there are no Christmas trees, no holiday ornaments, no reindeer, etc. If you do have reliable sources for calling it "Christmas" then you may need to quote these words directly into this Wikipedia article. The phrase which I found was "surreal video" though this is quite different from "Christmas video".

See previous --K. Peake 14:13, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(6) Are there any specific numbers about how much Plympton was paid? Did he also receive half a million dollars? Or was it only a fraction of a half million? How many hours did it take him and his staff to make this excellent quality of animation?

The source specifies a budget of half a million dollars, rather than stating "around", "about" or anything like that. --K. Peake 14:13, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(7) If the animated version is also the main version of the video used to represent and promote this song, then this should be mentioned at the very start of this section; in the first or second sentence before you discuss the Gondry video. Wikipedia readers who are less familiar with this song will not know this unless you tell them at the start of this section.

I have called the first music video the original one early on, if this works? --K. Peake 14:13, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(8) Your phrase "Plympto however understood.." requires an 'n' added to his name in the text.

Done --K. Peake 14:13, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(9) Synopsis section. Your phrase "single father montoring his three fictional children..." should use the word "mentoring" as a better fit.

This was another typo, but I was thinking monitoring if that is ok? --K. Peake 14:13, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(10) Good synopsis of the animated video here. The Christmas references just do not look as strong as your discussion of the spiritual aspects of angels-and-devils which stays with readers of this article a bit better.

(11) Reception section. It looks as if it is the animated version that got rated #31 in the last sentence here, though you do not call it the animated version. How much money did Plympton get for his efforts?

I am not exactly sure, however I only used second music video in the previous sentence so stating the visual in the following one makes it clear which one I am talking about. --K. Peake 14:13, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(12) Personnel section looks good.

Awesome! --K. Peake 14:13, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That should put things in motion to start this review. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:41, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Live performances section

(1) Your phrase "which the audience mostly responded to with boos..." may look better as "which received a poor audience response."

Done --K. Peake 07:18, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(2) Your phrase "For the complexity of the live arrangement..." uses the word complexity which seems atypical in this context. Maybe "An embellished live arrangement was presented using...".

Partly done mentioned it as "West presented..." and used "utilized" instead --K. Peake 07:18, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(3) 43 word sentence starts with: "For the start of a stop at the Nokia Theatre in Los Angeles on...". It may look better as two sentences.

(4) Your phrase "that continually morphs from shooting stars to pumping blue cells..." seems to have a missing word word to describe that the shooting stars continue to reappear and morph. Possible try "reappearing shooting stars into pumping blue cells...".

Done for the above --K. Peake 07:18, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(5) Not sure of the meaning of the use of Autotune here: "A simplistic stage set-up was used, which consisted of a baby grand piano that Legend sat at, a Roland TR-808 drum machine, a keyboard, and two microphones, with one utilized solely for Auto-Tune." Do you mean that the baby grand was used only for providing a reference pitch for the musicians? Autotune is normally understood as an electronic component which will "correct" performed music to an exact pitch needed in a song. Possibly check this wording.

Done I specified that one of the microphones was solely used for the technique --K. Peake 07:18, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(6) No performances after 2019?

There actually isn't, surprisingly. --K. Peake 07:18, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(7) Covers section. Not sure that this sentence is entirely clear in its current form: "Jesse Boone released a cover of "Heard 'Em Say" for his 18th birthday in 2013, marking the first song he wrote and recorded." Is the sentence here talking about a cover he did of Heard Em Say, or is it talking about a song he "wrote and recorded". Normally, it not expected to described a 'covered' song as being written ("wrote") by another artist.

Change to first number and remove the wrote part, as that must be a mistake on the source. --K. Peake 07:18, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(8) Tracks section looks ok. Credits and personnel section looks ok.

(9) Charts section looks ok. Certification section is documented with a citation.

(10) Release history looks ok. References with over 150 citations and a short Bibliography looks ok.

That should get it to the end of the second half of the article. Next for top of article sections when you are ready. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:32, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Background section (back to top of article)

(1) The phrase "previewed him an undeveloped version..." may look better as "previewed an undevelped version for him...".

Partly done --K. Peake 07:47, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(2) The phrase seems to reverse two words: "that fit widening his musical vision..." seems better as "that fit his widening musical vision...".

Done --K. Peake 07:47, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(3) The phrase may need some explanation or maybe a direct quote from the citation given: "containing political discontent and underpinning personal trauma...", which may look better if you state what the 'political discontent' is, and similarly what are the 'personal trauma' studied. Also mention if you are applying these for 'Heard em Say' or to the other tracks.

Done for both, also mentioning the link. --K. Peake 07:47, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(4) Recording section. The phrase "The song stood among the ones that he made several revisions..." may be simplified as "The song went through several revisions...".

(5) Word order in this sentence: "which runs throughout over tumbling delayed beats that are laced..." which might read better as "which uses tumbling delayed beats throughout that are laced...".

Done for the above --K. Peake 07:47, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(6) In paragraph four of the Recording section, there is again a discussion of the iPod recording review which seems to nearly duplicate this same discussion in the previous Background section. This ipod material should be covered once in that article when you decide if its better to appear in Recording section of the Background section.

Done if this is suitable way of splitting the info? --K. Peake 07:47, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(7) Parts of this Recording section seem to cover material which appear to be more closely related to Composition. If you need me to list examples then I can do this. Two or three sentences seem like they might belong more in the Composition section below Recording. For example, you state, "Brion would then arrange the music to move in correspondence with the rhymes, pushing the musicality of uncharted hip hop territory." To 'arrange' music is usually a part of composition.

This is providing context on the comp section before you reach it --K. Peake 07:47, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(8) Do you --K. Peake 08:44, 12 June 2022 (UTC)mention where the recording and the final mixing actually took place? Was it only in NYC and Hollywood?[reply]

Yes, per the liner notes. --K. Peake 07:47, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(9) Composition section: The phrase here looks better I think without the adjective: "The simplistic musical composition..." change to "The musical composition...", or, "The elegant and simple musical composition".

(10) Better word choice seems indicated here: "is dreary and straight from the heart..." might look better as "is soulful and straight from the heart".

Done for the above

(11) Release section looks good.

(12) Critical reception section looks good.

(13) Commercial performance section works.

Kyle Peake That should cover the basic sections. When you complete it, then make sure the lead section is consistent and then I'll do a follow-up read through. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:51, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also the Live performance section above. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:08, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lead section comments

(1) The phrase "Levine before haring him..." should use the word 'hearing him... '.

Done, I don't know how I never noticed this typo! --K. Peake 08:44, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(2) The phrase "who generally highlighted..." may look better as "who generally applauded...", though its really up to you on the final form. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:16, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done --K. Peake 08:44, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Review outcome and comments

Article is well written and well researched. It has sufficiently research to look like it could be considered for possible further development in the direction of eventually becoming a featured article. Optionally, it woulf be nice to know if the total budget for both versions of the video was half a million dollars, or if this amount was spent entirely on the first video which was more or less replaced by the second animated video. If all the mony was spent on the first video, then maybe there was a shoestring budget on the animated video which is really of top quality. If the nominator would like to try for going further in peer review then he can always let me know for further thoughts. Article is promoted here for this review. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:01, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]