Talk:Harold Styan

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DYK nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 14:17, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

( Comment or view )

( Article history links:

)

... that sports teacher Harold Styan of Clifton House School was a gymnast who played the music halls when young, and knocked out two attackers in his old age? (155 characters)

Source: Harrogate People and Places and Clifton House School Old Boys' Tales

ALT1: ... that gym teacher Harold Styan of Clifton House School was awarded the Order of the British Empire for services to youth, but as an old man he knocked out two lads who attacked him? (180 characters) Source: The London Gazette and as ALT0
Reviewed: Bunt sind schon die Wälder and Helen Chaman Lall
Comment: Clifton House School was moved to mainspace by me on 4 November 2024. Harold Styan was moved to mainspace on my behalf by admin Keith D on 18 November 2024, because my pagemover rights did not permit me to override a redirect page.

Created by Storye book (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 110 past nominations.

Storye book (talk) 11:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC).[reply]

I'm not yet sure if I will give this a full review, so I'll just leave this as a comment for now. Although the angle provided meets DYKINT, I have reservations if it meets the guidelines. For one, both hooks may need a trimming (it might be better to focus on the "two attackers were knocked out" angle alone without mentioning the gymnast or music hall clauses). More importantly, I'm not sure if the hooks as currently written meet WP:DYKHOOKSTYLE, specifically the part about avoiding writing hooks where the bolded article is only tangentially related to the main hook fact (the hooks seem to be more about Styan than the school itself). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:26, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ALT0 is 155 characters. According to the link you provided about trimming, it is ideal length.
ALT1 is 180 characters. Being 180 characters is not a trimming issue by itself.
Styan was a big part of that school, as can be seen in the article. There is plenty of material about him in the article, because he was a big presence there. If our readers click on the bold link, they will read more about Styan there than anywhere else online. Therefore he is relevant to the hook.
Meanwhile I'll go and find an extra hook or two, anyway. Storye book (talk) 10:04, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ALT2: ... Clifton House School formed a scout pack which received an award from Lord Baden Powell for "best pack the United Kingdom"? Source: Neesam, Malcolm (26 February 1999). "Lord Baden Powell on the Stray". Harrogate Advertiser and Weekly List of the Visitors. p. 7 col.4. Retrieved 30 October 2024 – via British Newspaper Archive. "Lord Baden Powell was in Harrogate for the special purpose of presenting Peter's Pole to the Clifton House School Pack, which had won the award of best pack in the United Kingdom, an exceptional commendation".
ALT0a: ... that sports teacher Harold Styan of Clifton House School played the music halls when young, and knocked out two attackers in his old age? Source as above
ALT0b: ... that Clifton House School's sports teacher Harold Styan played the music halls when young, and knocked out two attackers in his old age? Source as above Storye book (talk) 11:12, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One issue is that, while not an official rule or guidelines, it is usually discouraged to mention people without articles by name in hooks. I'm not sure how strict that practice is, but it's been brought up many times in the past. In any case, it might be necessary to remove Styan's name from the hooks. As for the trimming part, the wording I had was something like "... that a Clifton House School sports teacher knocked out two attackers in his old age?", which is more straightforward. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think your suggestion is appropriate, because this was an expensive private school, and Styan had the Order of the British Empire for his youth work. In other words, he was a hero and teacher, not a gangster. The hooks that I gave suggest that he was a complicated and interesting character, but your hook suggests that he might be just some kind of felon or that he ultimately developed dementia. If there is no specific rule against using his name, then I don't see why we should remove it. However I shall look at that section of the article and see whether there is enough there to make Styan into a separate article, then the hooks will have his name in lights, and this nom will be a double nom. Storye book (talk) 16:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update. I am separating the two articles, but it will take a day or two. Thank you for your patience. Please note that the Harold Styan link is currently a redirect to Clifton House School. I shall correct that when I publish his article. Storye book (talk) 18:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a rule that's formally codified and thus not in the guidelines, but I remember it being discouraged before. I think Theleekycauldron might know about it. In any case, if the hook becomes a double nom then that particular issue becomes moot. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

see WP:DYKG#C1 theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 23:13, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure what you are referring to, Leeky, but the redirect is temporary on this page as explained above, and not intended for publication on the Main Page. I have nearly finished Styan's own page, and hope to publish today or tomorrow (when the redirect will resolve to a direct link). Thank you for your patience. Storye book (talk) 12:09, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good to me! :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:36, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Harold Styan now has his own article, so his name is now bolded in the hooks. Admin, please could we now have this as a double nom? BlueMoonset? Mandarax? Maile66? Thank you. (~~I shall shortly provide a QPQ for the Harold Styan article~~ Update: second review done. See "reviewed" section above).Storye book (talk) 11:40, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- The second article has been integrated into the nomination template. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 18:14, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Mandarax! Storye book (talk) 18:28, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Both articles are now ready for review. Storye book (talk) 11:40, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: New enough, long enough. Hook facts are cited; I prefer ALT1. Earwig shows no issues. No image included with hooks. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:32, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Storye book and Crisco 1492: The "knocked out two yobs" story seems to be user-generated, not from a publication itself – should we consider not using it, or at the very least providing attribution in the hook? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 16:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I think WP:SPS works here, given that the site is explicitly a memorial set up by the former students. That being said, if we want to remove the violence, a gym teacher playing music halls is still fairly hooky. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ALT3: ... that teacher Harold Styan of Clifton House School received the O.B.E. for services to youth, but Jack Ogden said he knocked out two lads who attacked him? (154 characters for a double nom hook) Source: The London Gazette and as ALT0. The knocking-out comment is from Jack Ogden, a respected and published historian.
ALT4: ... that gym teacher Harold Styan of Clifton House School received the Order of the British Empire for services to youth? (117 characters for a double nom hook) Source: The London Gazette Storye book (talk) 19:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ALT4 appears to address the concerns regarding the sourcing of "knocked out two yobs". That one should be good. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:25, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Please discuss major rearrangements before making major changes

(1) Please do not remove the picture of Styan's place of birth. That end-of-terrace house is very difficult to photograph as a whole building - it took two days to get it right. There are no other viewpoints which get enough information into the picture. It is a very modest birthplace, facing the railway line. We need to see that, because of the class aspect of this article. Styan came from a working-class background, but ended up teaching the children of moneyed middle and upper-class children, in the company of teachers from that background, whereas kids like that might have called him an "oik" when he was of school age. Yet his achievements earned him respect, and he was able to teach those rich kids, work alongside middle and upper-class teachers, have institutions named after him, and hold an OBE. That is why we need that picture. I'll add more explanation to the picture if that helps.

(2) The awards and recognition section is normal for a biography where such things exist. It separates the modesty and hard work from the public recognition, which are two very different things. In the case of a working-class man in that era, the recognition changes everything.

(3) The reminiscences section must be kept separate, because reminiscences offer a very different perspective from our normal listing of formal records. The reminiscences bring out the character of the biographical subject, and need to be seen as such. Storye book (talk) 11:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]