Jump to content

Talk:Hajji Ebrahim Shirazi

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Harv error

[edit]

@Amir Ghandi: Citation 35 points to nowhere and there is no such text cited under the Bibliography section. Could you please fix this? ─ The Aafī (talk) 14:52, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@TheAafi: Fixed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amir Ghandi (talk • contribs)

GA Review

[edit]
GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Hajji Ebrahim Shirazi/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Z1720 (talk · contribs) 01:15, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I will be reviewing this article momentarily, using the template described below. If this article is being considered for WP:FAC, please leave a note and I will conduct a more thorough, pre-FAC review. Please also post below if you have any questions. Z1720 (talk) 01:15, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Comments:

This article is very interesting and I think it is well-researched. However, I think there are too many grammatical mistakes and unclear statements to allow this article to pass, and I am not confident enough that they can be fixed in the 7 day window. Some examples are below:

  • "and in action to prevent popular riots, dismissed all kadkhodas including Hajji Ebrahim and sent them to Isfahan" Is this supposed to be "in order to prevent riots"? or "in order to prevent protests"? Riots are not typically popular
  • In English, a sentence always starts with a capital letter. There are numerous instances in the article where sentences do not start with this, particularly in the third paragraph of "Youth and early career"
  • "Jafar Khan knew that Ebrahim is a powerful and popular figure so he needs his help to gain Legitimacy." -> "Jafar Khan knew that Ebrahim was a powerful and popular figure and sought his help to gain legitimacy." also, legitimacy for what?
  • The "Jafar Khan's reign" section has too much background information and not enough about Ebrahim Shirazi. This should be summarised and more information about Ebrahim is included in this section.
  • "He then crowned king on 23 January 1789." -> "He was then crowned king on 23 January 1789."
  • "Since the coronation, it appears that the young king and Ebrahim have disputes in issues, one of them was the trial of Mirza Mahdi." Why does it appear this way? Is this fact in doubt?
  • "Agha Mohammad Khan himself and his army went to Karabakh and after a long siege came to an agreement in which he wasn't allowed to enter Shushi but Karabakh became subordinate." wasn't should be was not, as contractions are not used in formal English writing.
  • "where Nader Shah in 1736 in front of Notables of Iran, proclaimed himself King." This is a sentence fragment. Perhaps, "In 1736, Nader Shah, in front of the Notables of Iran, proclaimed himself king." Also, is Notables of Iran a formal title? Usually, someone is not referred to as a notable; perhaps it is supposed to be nobles? What did he proclaim himself king of?
  • "though the suggestion wasn't accepted by neither of them." this should be "was not accepted"
  • The titles of things in the references section should not be in all caps (eg, "Amanat, Abbas (1997). "EBRĀHĪM KALĀNTAR ŠĪRĀZĪ". Encyclopædia Iranica, online edition. New York.", "Tucker, Ernest (2006). "NĀDER SHAH". Encyclopædia Iranica, online edition. New York."

These are some examples, but there are many more that I discovered from a short skim. This article needs a thorough copyedit before it can be a good article. I suggest bringing this article to WP:GOCE, although the article should be withdrawn from GAN if it is at GOCE. The other option is to try to copyedit it yourself within a week, although if there are still major concerns after that then I will fail this. I'll put this article on hold for now, but I await your response. Z1720 (talk) 01:41, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

[edit]
GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Hajji Ebrahim Shirazi/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 21:20, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]


I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:20, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sources are reliable as far as I can evaluate them.

Deleted it.
Deleted it.
  • For File:Mirza Shafi Mazandarani.jpg is not inaccurate, but "PD-because|too old" isn't the best way to tag these. Doesn't have to be fixed for GA, just FYI; fix it if you have a moment.
Done
  • "Ebrahim, who coming from an originally Jewish family, inherited his father's title kadkhoda (warden) of the Balakaft quarter of Shiraz, later became kadkhoda-bashi (chief warden) of all of the city's areas adjacent to Balakaft." The syntax of this is mangled and I can't tell how it's intended to read.
Amended it.
  • Can you explain kalantar inline as you do with kadhoda and kadkhoda-bashi? Or a link would work for any of these too.
kalantar is the equivalent to lord mayor, I think I did say that in the lead.
  • "and connected with Agha Mohammad Khan": "connected" is vague: made an alliance with? Worked for?
Done.
  • A couple more dates in the lead would help -- when did Jafar die, for example? When did Lotf Ali Khan flee from Agha Mohammad Khan? When was Ebrahim's dispute with Lotf Ali Khan?
Done
  • Some copyediting needed; I made some copyedits myself, but here are a few points where I couldn't be sure what was meant:
    • "relinquished his conquering"
Amended it.
    • "was always in the presence of Agha Mohammad Khan"
Done
    • "an army that withdrew in Qom and led Agha Mohammad to easily capture the city"
Done
    • "and executed most of the loyals to him" -- most of the men? Most of the aristocrats? Most of the bureaucracy? And again later with "purging the loyals to Lotf Ali Khan". I think this would work as "and executed many of those loyal to him" for the first one, and "purging those loyal to Lotf Ali Khan" for the second one, if you're OK with that phrasing.
Thanks, done
    • "He then crowned king on 23 January 1789": "was crowned", I assume?
Yes, amended it.
    • "the youngest son of Sadeq Khan who survived from Sayed Morad Khan"
  • "Ebrahim witnessed Karim Khan's administration and consulted with the remnants of the Safavid bureaucracy": I'm not sure what "witnessed" and "consulted" mean here -- what did he witness? What did he consult them about?
Amended it.
  • "Another army led by the Zand Khan was defeated near Kashan and Zand Khan fled to Shiraz": is it "the Zand Khan" or just "Zand Khan"?
Honestly, I don't like to refer to them like that; amended it to 'he'.
  • In the section on Jafar Khan's reign, we refer to Agha Mohammad Khan and Mohammad Khan Zand, and sometimes to just "Mohammad Khan". In context it's usually clear who the latter refers to, but I would avoid it; it is confusing to readers trying to keep the names straight.
    Amended it
    Looks like we still have some references to just "Mohammad Khan"? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:15, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In the same section? Because I can't seem to find them.
"Ebrahim sent troops under the leadership of Abdullah Khan Zand to fight Mohammad Khan; two armies fought near Shiraz; in the battle, Mohammad Khan was defeated and killed" has two instances. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:37, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Amended it Amir Ghandi (talk) 17:39, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "An uprising against Morad Khan was staged": "staged" implies "faked"; is that the intended meaning?
No, amended it
  • There seems to be something wrong with the dates in the "Coup against Sayed Morad Khan" section; we get May 8, 1789 followed by 23 January 1789. And the date formats should be consistent, though that's not a requirement for GA.
  • "In correspondence with Lotf Ali, Ebrahim expressed his support and assured Sayed Morad he would help him regain the throne": this seems like it has to be wrong. Ebrahim assures Sayed Morad that he (Ebrahim) is planning to overthrow Sayed Morad?
I meant Lotf Ali Khan; amended it.
  • Having read half the article, I have started to get a sense of the political context and rivalries. I think it would be best to have a short section in "Background", before the "Family history" subsection, titled something like "Iran in the 18th century" or "Political situation", and give a short account -- no more than four or five sentences of the Zand and Qajar rivalries (if that's the right way to put it). For example I didn't realize that Karim Khan was a Zand till late in the article, nor that Ebrahim had stayed loyal to one Zand or another for years, until switching to Agha Mohammad Khan.
    Done
    Looks good except that I don't understand "The reins of rivalry between Zands and Qajars thus fell into the hands of": can you clarify? :::Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:15, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, rein means "to control or direct with or as if with", so what I meant was that Agha Mohammad Khan was the new leader of this opposition. Amir Ghandi (talk) 12:58, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it would be better to be less metaphorical. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:45, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Amended it Amir Ghandi (talk) 14:08, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Amir Ghandi (talk) 13:13, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and sent for Lotf Ali Khan": surely "sent for" is the wrong verb? It means he sent a request to Lotf Ali Khan to come to him.
Amended it.
  • "The leaders of Shiraz expected another member of the Zand dynasty would be ousted after the removal of Lotf Ali Khan": again "ousted" can't be what you intend to say -- it would mean the leaders expected there to be another Zand after Lotf Ali Khan, and this next Zand would also be ousted.
I meant enthroned. Amended it.
  • "Their aim was to persuade Agha Mohammad Khan to consolidate his rule over Georgia and establish a link with Europe through Mingrelia. Ebrahim, however, told them Iranian rule over Georgia was legitimate ": I don't follow this. They want Agha Mohammad Khan to rule Georgia; Ebrahim, "however" (implying he disagrees) says Iranian rule over Georgia is legitimate. So why "however" if they don't disagree?
  • "His appointment was mostly because of his presence in the invasion of Khorasan, in which Mirza Shafi went with Agha Mohammad Khan as an advisor. In Mashhad, by his advice, Shahrokh Afshar was tortured to expose Nader Shah's royal jewels" I don't follow this. "His" presumably refers to "Mirza Shafi Mazandarani"? Why does Mirza Shafi's presence in the invasion of Khorasan mean Agha Mohammad Khan would appoint him as kalantar of Tehran? And why is it relevant to this article why he was appointed? And why does it matter that Shahrokh Afshar was tortured?
Sharoukh Afshar was the grandson of Nader Shah, and Mirza Shafi endorsed Agha Mohammad Khan to have him turtured in order to find the place of Nader Shah's royal treasure. Amended the paragraph in the article.
  • "Hussein Qoli Khan, the brother of Baba Khan": suggest "Hussein Qoli Khan (the brother of Baba Khan)" to avoid this appearing to be two different people.
Done
  • "According to Abbas Amanat, Ebrahim is "the least understood statesmen of modern Persian history": I can't change the contents of a quote, but this makes no sense: should it be "least understood statesman" rather than "statesmen"?
Statesman is the correct one; amended it.
  • "and as one who inflicted heavy losses": on whom?
On the realm's interests; added it to the article
  • "because he was a case of wrath of Fath-Ali Shah": what does this mean?
I meant that the Qajar historians had to portray him negatievally to avoid portraying Fath-Ali Shah as man who unjustly killed Ebrahim.

That's everything. I had to do a lot of minor copyediting; if you nominate more articles at GAN, please consider getting a GOCE copyedit first -- it wasn't bad enough to fail the article but it made it a lot harder to review. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:09, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've struck the points addressed so far; there are a couple more questions above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:15, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK, just one more point. What does this sentence mean? "Yaqub Khan was the son of Abdollah Khan, the youngest son of Sadeq Khan who survived from Sayed Morad Khan.". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:54, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sadeq Khan had a son named Abdollah who had a son named Yaqub who managed to survive while Sayed Morad Khan killed his kinsmen. I think I could amend it to Yaqub Khan, grandson of Sadeq Khan, who survived the Sayed Morad's purge. Amir Ghandi (talk) 18:21, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Last fix looks good; passing. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:51, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks

[edit]

Amir Ghandi, I realized after I promoted this that I should have done some spotchecks. I've just run the Earwig tool and it's found some similarities between the article text and one of the sources, the Encyclopedia Iranica article. There are some short phrases that are duplicated:

  • "survival of his own throne depended on"
    Done
  • "a league of semi-autonomous cities and tribal regions"
    I changed league to confederation. Should I change it further?
    Yes, I would recommend it. What you did for "a survival of his own throne" above is perfect -- a complete rewrite using different words. Here you might have to change the whole sentence surrounding it in order to be able to change it as much as needed. You may not be able to avoid using e.g. "tribal regions" or "cities". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:22, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done
  • "false messages sewn inside the sole of one of his boots"
Done
  • "Once the courtier was arrested and his messages discovered"
Done

Then there are longer strings of text that have been slightly changed:

  • Article: "Ebrahim wrote a letter to Agha Mohammad Khan offering him a gift of 3,000 mares and requesting him, on behalf of the people of Fars, to be their new ruler". Source: "then sent an emissary, Moḥammadqolī Khan Qašqāʾī, to Āqā Moḥammad Khan Qājār, offering him a gift of 3,000 mares from a Zand stud and requesting him, on behalf of the people of Fārs, to be their new ruler".
Done
  • Article: "Agha Mohammad Khan rewarded Ebrahim, his family, and his followers with favors but committed more acts of violence against the city's inhabitants". Source: "although he rewarded the Kalāntar, his family, and his followers with favors, he committed more acts of violence against the inhabitants".
Done
  • Article: " change his own "plain and downright" nature and that a lenient course would not assuage his opponents or decelerate the approach of his fate". Source: "change his own “plain and downright” nature nor would a lenient course assuage his opponents or decelerate the approach of his fate"
Done

I'll also be doing spotchecks of the other sources. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:14, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Amir Ghandi, these still need to be addressed. The rewrite of the sentences related to the courier wasn't enough; you just changed a couple of words to synonyms. I did another rewrite to give you an idea of what's needed. Can you do something similar to the other sentences with problems? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:39, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mike Christie Sorry it took so long, I forgot about this.
Amir Ghandi (talk) 13:43, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. I've struck all but one above. The problem with that one is that you have the quote wrong. The quote from Malcolm is "truly a great man", it is not "truly a great man, a genius, and one of the best statesmen Persia has ever had". The source you're taking it from has that extra text and you would have to quote that source, not quote Malcolm, if you want to reuse that wording. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:47, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Amended it now; any thoughts? Amir Ghandi (talk) 14:53, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that works, but it's really hard to paraphrase because it's a quote within a quote. How about we just quote the immediate source, moving it earlier to connect it to the previous mention of Amanat? E.g. According to Abbas Amanat, Ebrahim is "the least understood statesman of modern Persian history", and Amanat adds John Malcolm's opinion: "Malcolm, who was on intimate terms with him, praised him as a 'truly a great man,' a genius, and one of the best statesmen Persia has ever had".? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:01, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fine with me; done. Amir Ghandi (talk) 15:08, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good; thanks for fixing these. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:25, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hajji_Ebrahim_Shirazi&oldid=1205255136"