Talk:Haim Cohen (chef)

Requested move 17 July 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. A dab page can be created at any time. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 05:10, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

---

Haim Cohen (chef) → Haim Cohen – The chef's article is new on English Wikipedia. Haim Cohen currently points to a spelling mistake Haim Cohn. Cohn is a dead old judge no one is interested in. On the English Wikipedia he gets 244 views a month [1], and most of that is probably people searching for the chef and wondering why they dialled up this old dead person with the spelling mistake. On the Hebrew Wikipeda Cohn is a bit more popular, with 817 views a month [2]. The chef, who properly spells his name in English as Haim Cohen, unlike the Cohn spelling mistake, get 4,677 views a month [3]. This is a comparison chart of the two in views [4] over many years, even in the TV off season, Cohen has like double or tripe the views, and when one of his TV shows are in season, it's like off the charts. The chef is much much more popular, and also isn't a spelling mistake. לילך5 (talk) 05:10, 17 July 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 04:32, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nomination. Sole Wikipedia main title header bearing this exact name, thus obviating need for the parenthetical qualifier "(chef)". A hatnote atop each entry will suffice. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:56, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
• Comment - I have no strong opinion on this one way or the other, but here are some points for consideration.

Transliteration: this is not quite the open-and-shut case it might appear at first glance. The one truly correct spelling of their names is of course חיים כהן. Picking the "correct" transliteration to the Latin alphabet is more complicated. There are more than a dozen common transliterations of the surname. I can only find the chef's name spelled "Cohen" in reliable English-language sources, but for the Supreme Court Justice and Attorney General, in a search on Google I found both spellings in use:

Cohn: in his books his surname is transliterated as "Cohn", which I assume would have been approved by him for publication. In the press, the Jerusalem Post prefers this spelling: [5], [6], [7], as does the Times of Israel: [8], [9], [10].

Cohen: the Knesset website transliterates it as "Cohen": [11], [12], [13]. The Hebrew University of Jerusalem has a Justice Haim Cohen Chair in Human Rights at their Faculty of Law: [14]. There's a Judge Haim Cohen Street in Jerusalem, transliterated by lettings and sales agencies, Google Maps, Waze etc as "Hashofet Haim Cohen". Haaretz newspaper, recently described twice by the proposer of the move as "one of Israel's best newspapers" and reliable, prefers the spelling "Cohen": [15], [16], [17]. So do the main "newspapers of record" in the US: the New York Times, as cited in the Haim Cohn article: [18], [19], [20]; the Washington Post: [21], [22], [23]; the Los Angeles Times: [24], though some other US papers sometimes prefer "Cohn".

WP:Recentism and relative notability: ol' Justice Cohn/Cohen doesn't get onto TV much these days, his career having plateaued a bit when he died in 2002. The chef gets plenty of coverage at the moment, but that's not necessarily how Wikipedia defines a primary topic. This isn't about a disambiguation page, yet, but when I Google for "Haim Cohen" I can find as much about the archaeologist as I can about the chef. Googling for "חיים כהן", the chef wins hands-down. But TV and chef careers can be famously short, while Justice Cohn/Cohen's contributions, including being described by the President of the Supreme Court as one of the founders of Israeli law, are memorialised all over Israel, in long-lasting press coverage, and in history books.

Do hatnotes fully address this problem, as User:Roman Spinner suggests? Possibly. But let's not rush this discussion, and then have to have it all over again in a year. Storchy (talk) 11:38, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

There are a number of possible transliterations (Haim/Chaim, Cohen/Cohn, and possibly others. Chaim is more prevalent than Haim), as well from German for Cohn. BUT, both of these people decided how to call themselves in English. In English language, Cohn wrote his Cohn, we see this in books he wrote such as The Trial and Death of Jesus or Human Rights in Jewish Law. Haim Cohen, the chef, also made his choice in his Facebook, instush, and restaurant. We do not need to guess how to write their name in English, because both of them told us how they write their name, and there is no conflict in names in English. Cohn always signed Cohn. Chef Cohen always signs Cohen.לילך5 (talk) 20:04, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

There's no disagreement here about how the chef spells his surname.

But we don't know that the judge always wrote his name that way in English, we only know that Ktav Publishing published his books with that transliteration of his surname. If that were all that mattered, then that would mean that the Knesset is wrong, Hebrew University is wrong, etc. Also, in the book Free Judaism and Religion in Israel, his surname is spelt "Cohen". Maybe he simply didn't care how people spelled his name in Latin script.

It would be nice if this were simple, I know. Alas, it's not. Storchy (talk) 23:41, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

That's a collection of essays translated by Malkin, including one by Cohn, it is not written by Cohn. It is very very simple. Cohn published many papers during his life in English. This are all signed "Haim H. Cohn": [25], [26], [27], [28], [29], [30], [31], [32], [33], [34]. If you look hard enough you'll find people mistranslating Cohn's name as "Chaim Cohen" too, like here, but that's only because they translated from Hebrew without looking up Cohn's preferred spelling. Cohn's preferred spelling if very clear if you compare: paper search for author:"Haim H. Cohen" (no results) and paper search for author:"Haim H. Cohn" (58 results). He is also listed on the Israeli national library as Haim Hermann Cohn (1911-2002).לילך5 (talk) 04:55, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per Storchy. Let's wait and see if the need for disambiguation diminishes in a few years. Dicklyon (talk) 05:26, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per Storchy. Cohn is a dead old judge no one is interested in. What a ridiculous, subjective, ignorant comment. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:07, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

  The chef is alive and is a judge on MasterChef for ten seasons. Most people looking for "Judge Haim Cohen" are probably looking for the MasterChef judge. On the Hebrew Wikipedia, if you switch page views of the pair to logarithmic to see the changes miniscule Cohn viewings, you can see that Cohn's views go up when Cohen's views go up, tracking the MasterChef and other TV program seasons.---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 07:13, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

  Being alive and on a reality TV show does not make someone more notable! -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:54, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

• Disambiguate per Google and possible views[[35]] the chef seems to be most likely but there is also Haim Cohen-Meguri. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:22, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
• Comment. Although my above vote indicates "Support per nomination", I would also support creation of a Haim Cohen disambiguation page, per Crouch, Swale, that would list Haim Cohen (judge), Haim Cohen-Meguri as well as Haim Cohen (chef). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:04, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.