Talk:Guangzhou/Archive 2

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"Canton" Name Correction

I'm terribly sorry.

Canton is NOT the name of Guangzhou city.

Nor has it ever been.

Canton (in English) has ALWAYS referred to Guangdong Province, even when spoken amongst overseas Chinese or even when any of the Culturally Affluent Overseas non-Chinese people use it.
Guangzhou, the Capital city of Guangdong Province in South China, is pronouced "GaongZao" or "KuangZao" in Cantonese, the local Dialect
Guangdong, the Province, is Locally Pronounced "GoangDung" in Cantonese

It can also be Romanized as "Kuangtong", "Gaongdong", "Kwangtung", "Kantun", "Cwantung", "Goangtun", "Kangtong", "Cangtong", "Kantung", "Kanton" or "Canton"

Both "Guangzhou" and "Guangdong" are the Standard Mandarin pronuciation and Official Pinyin spelling.

"Canton" is the English Romanization of the Cantonese pronunciation of "KwanTung" or "Goangdung", the name of the Province.
Whoever keeps Editing this Wiki page is mis-informed and I Demand you stop your spreading ignorance.

I have edited this page the proper way and it has been re-edited back to the wrong information

"Canton" is a pronunciation and a spelling used by Foreigners attempting to Romanize the Cantonese Language in the Early Days of contact with Chinese people in Hong Kong, who also all spoke Cantonese

Hong Kong was to be taken by force from China, and there was nothing between Hong Kong and Guangzhou.

Dongguan, most of pre-2004 Foshan, Shenzhen and most places along the Pearl River Delta didn't even exist as anything but rural farm lands in those days

Hence, Foreigners simply began calling the Area between HK and Guangzhou, "Canton" or "Guangdong"

"I am going to Canton" is literally translated as "I am going to Guangdong", but in the earlier days of Europeans/ Americans coming to China that would simply mean "I am going to travel to the City in Guangdong (or Guangdong City)".and thus, the names of "Guangzhou" and "Guangdong" became synonymous with people unfamiliar with the region or the Language, with "Canton City" meaning, literally, "Guangdong City", which would be to speak of the Capital City of Guangdong Province.

it's like saying "California City" in the days when there was only one major city in California

Nobody refers to Guangzhou as "Canton" except people unfamiliar with Guangzhou. In the past, that might have been the majority of foreigners, but today, probably the Majority have been educated to the actual name origins of "Canton" as "Guangdong/Kwongtung", which any Linguist can confirm for you. Most foreigners today refer to Guangzhou as "Guangzhou", except for those poor souls who read your wikipedia entry Before I Changed it last time and After you changed it Back again. Those people have you to blame for their ignorance.

and linguistically-challenged foreigners without empathy or regard for the culture and language of the people they are attempting to conquer, exploit, rape, rob, and pilfer is hardly a viable reason to stand behind the spread of ignorance by adhering to their out-dated mentality

Wikipedia is for the "Solving of the Puzzle", no, its not for your little English-Language pride.

Educated people today refer to Guangzhou as Guangzhou, because of the handy Hanyu Pinyin romanization method which has standardized all of The Mandarin Chinese in one easy to read form, which occured long after the murderous drug-peddling thieves and rapist thugs set up camp in Hong Kong and Macau.

And due to the closed-off style of governemnt in the mainland, and most information about the mainland coming from HongKongese or overseas Cantonese in the past educated in the West or under Foreign Rule, and their general willingness to accept English Language usage at face value, there has been little done to correct the mistaken use of "Canton" as "Guangzhou"

But the truth doesn't care what Harvard and Yale (or a professor in Canada) decide to preach, and neither does anyone else. I would say the only people radically supporting the use of "Canton" are racist bigots who identify with the original foreign invaders, murderers, rapists, and thieves coming to exploit China, its people, and its resources.
but alas, "English" is not your sole patent, nor does it belong only to the invading powers to use at their sole disgression. It is a language for anyone in the world to use and communicate with, including those millions of despairing and oppressed and murdered voices around the world which constitute the means by with which the wealth and success of developed nations was achieved

People who speak Cantonese, Cantonese people, and/ or Cantonese food refers to Guangdong as a whole. The most famous Cantonese food comese from outside Guangzhou city. Most Cantonese people also come from outside of Guangzhou city. "GoangDung Wa" is translated as "Canton/Kantun Languange" or "Kantunese/Cantonese"

Any Chinese people who refer to the City as Canton are only doing so because of their incorrect learning of English from mis-informed or ignorant Foreigners, or from right here on this incorrect Wiki, edited and re-edited by an ill-informed Canadian student from his ill-informed or ignorant Canadian professor.
I have 3 Cantonese friends sitting here right beside me confirming this as I write it from Guangzhou City, I have lived here for 8 years.

STOP EDITING THE WIKI INCORRECTLY, And I demand an explanation from the person/ people who repeatedly keep changing this wiki page to read "Guangzhou is Canton", when in fact "Guangdong is Canton"

--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 05:47, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

So please list your sources that Canton ≠ Guangzhou. We don't need your explanation we need your sources and citation. Wikipedia always require sources until you have sources don't attempt to deny Canton ≠ Guangzhou. Also you should read W:NPOV before editing Wikipedia we don't need any racism/ultra-nationalism/bias here. — ASDFGH =] ^talk? 02:20, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Also double check your uploaded images they are for W:CSD.

• File:Liwan Montage.JPG
• File:Tianhe Guangzhou.jpg
• File:Guangzhou Montage.JPG
• File:Yuexiu Montage.JPG
• File:Haizhu Montage.JPG

— ASDFGH =] ^talk? 02:47, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

L31 G0NG L41:

right, I fixed the photos before you changed them again.

anyway, Common Sense does not need references. its a simple truth. the reason the wikipedia is so full of crap is because the only sources ever cited are incorrect English language sources, and therein lies our problem.

my very clear, very detailed, and very much needed explanation is in the "Canton" Name Correction part 3 below.

::comment added by L31 G0NG L41 (talk • contribs) 04:40, 28 July 2009

Local Name Phonetics Explained

The Local name in Cantonese is not a name which can easily be romanized.

The reasons for this are the difference between Consonant and Vowel sounds in Cantonese which do not exist in Roman-based writing.

What is "Guang" in Mandarin Romanization, is usually spelled "Kwang" in Cantonese Romanization. However, the initial Consonant is not a "K" as spoken in English, Neither is it a "G" as spoken in "Guang"

The initial Consonant in "Guang" is actually somewhere between a 'G' and 'K' and while "Guang" is incorrect, so is "Kwang". The Initial actually is spoken as the G in "Go", which is Phonetically somewhere between a 'G' and a 'K'.

For example, the G in "Goose" is a deeper, fuller 'G' sound than the G in "Go", which is Phonetically closer to the K in "Ko" than other G sounds.

Nor is the Vowel sound in the ending "WANG", which gives the initial sound similar to "Quack" and is also incorrect. The Vowel Sound is not a "UA/Wa" sound beginning with the full closed 'U' vowel. The initial Vowel is much more open.

In the progression from 'U-O-A', the Vowel in "Kwang" actually begins at the 'O' or just before the 'O'

Thus a more accurate Romanization of the Character's Cantonese Pronunciation would be "Goang" (minus the tone)

and "Zhou" in Cantonese is often spelled "Chow" or sometimes "Dzao", and the initial sound is phonetically like "Jzao" or "TZao" or even "ChZao", but as "Z" has basically the same sound throughout Chinese dialects (to the best of my knowledge), the spelling "Zao" or "Zau" should suffice.

So I believe the spelling "GoangZao" to be a more accurate representation of the Spoken Language than other popular Romanizations of the Characters Cantonese pronunciations.

--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 02:57, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Please cited your sources for "GoangZao" before adding it. Most Standard Cantonese (Guangzhou Hua) uses Jyutping or Yale for Romanization. — ASDFGH =] ^talk? 02:12, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I would greatly appreciate you reading what i've posted before replying smething which warrants my attention. As I clearly stated, the other spellings are not accurate, are incorrect, whoever made them was not so clever, not thorough, incompetent, whatever you like.

and Goangzao is more accurate. what kind of reference would you like? an Anglo reference from people with little or no fluency in the Language? i have stated very very clearly WHY they are incorrect as well. Please, if you like, forward my post to Stanford unfiversity and ask them to please update their texts--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 09:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

"Canton" Name Correction part 2

L31 G0NG L41:

you can have Peking Duck in Peking

or Beijing duck in Beijing

you do not have Beijing Duck in Peking

nor do you have Peking Duck in Beijing

and 99% of the planet calls Beijing by its official name

and as Beijing Duck is a Food native to Beijing and not south China (where the word "Peking" comes from) it should of course be called by its local name (also the official Name) "Beijing Duck"

regardless of what you learned from Cantonese traveling abroad

and "Cantonese" is Romanized as "Guangdongese" in the Mandarin dialect. but is correctly spoken as "The Guangdong language" or the "Canton Language"

Guangzhou is the capital city, Canton is the name of the province.

But I always support using the local dialect whenever possible, and if the natives call the province "Canton" or "Kwangtun" as opposed to "Guangdong" then we should adhere to that usage.

Just like the name of 90% of the U.S. States use a name from the local dialect of the local Native American Tribes, as opposed to an eastern Native American tribal name for Western Areas of America, we use the indiginous name when naming.--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 06:43, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Should wikipedea rename Peking Duck to Beijing duck to follow the above quoted rules ? and should Canntonese be renamed to guangzhouese ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.11.224.187 (talk) 22:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

L31 G0NG L41:

It is Bejing Duck. unless you are speaking in the Cantonese language, then its Peking Duck. And if you are not in China, odds are most people you are hearing speak Chinese are speaking Cantonese. "Wok" is the Cantonese term for the cooking pan, "Bok Choy" is the Cantonese term for white cabbage, "Shitake" is the name of the mushroom in Japanese, though it was cultivated in China far earlier.

the name in English is Generally whoever introduces it to the English speaking people.

But Beijing may prefer Wikipedia to change the name to Beijing Duck, as Beijing Duck is the most famous dish in all of China, and is the pride of Beijing.

lets all say it together "Beijing", see now? its not that scary and difficult afterall

Taiwan seems to have lost out to Beijing, and so "China" is now "Beijing" and future words from China should be in Mandarin.

I think Peking Duck is fine, but as it is a specialty found really only in Beijing, it should be called Beijing Duck, and since its the source of so much pride for the people of Beijing and the government seat of China, it wouldn't hurt for us to call it Beijing duck... eh?

if you think you have had Beijing Duck outside of Beijing, you are mistaken.

there is no place else in China who makes Beijing Duck except for Beijing, and most certainly not restaurants overseas.

thats like drinking Champagne from California, anything other than Champagne produced in the town of Champagne is merely "Sparkling Wine"

would you like for Beijing to get equally as anal about their Duck?

unless you are also going to change the name of Beijing to Peking, and then use all Cantonese words for the Chinese stuff because you dont feel mainland Chinese are friendly enough for you, and if that's the case, why don't you just ban China from the Wikipedia and make things up yourself from your external biased point of view.

But the fact remains, that no matter what language or dialect of Chinese you are speaking, "Canton" means Guangdong, and can never and will never mean Guangzhou, unless you are also going to change "Peking duck" to mean "Beihai" duck or "Shanghai duck" as well

however you cut it, Canton is Canton, Canton is Kanton, Canton is Kangtun. Canton is Cwangtung. Canton is Kuangdung, Canton is Guangdong. Can-Ton is a romanization of the characters for the province of Guangdong

use it as such.

you cannot use it to mean whatever you want it to mean. as "Canton" is not an English word

if you want to make your own word for Guangzhou, call it "Angloville" or something in English--116.22.246.84 (talk) 13:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter Peking Duck was romanized in Chinese Postal Map Romanization which is still well known as to Canton = Guangzhou in parts of the world and Guangzhou was once known as Canton thought out the world in history. You can't deny history. Why don't you change China to Zhongguo. Also Cantonese (Yue Yu/Guangdong Hua) ≠ Standard Cantonese (Guangzhou Hua) they are not the same thing. — ASDFGH =] ^talk? 02:28, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

L31 G0NG L41:

It does matter. Canton has never been the name of Guangzhou

Ever

and "throughout the world" might have been about 4 major cities when people still wore cowboy hats and carried hand guns and shot Chinese people for fun

but thats DEFINITELY NOT "Changing (Factual) History", its merely correcting what was most incorrect.

and that "throughout the world" you refer to is definitely only English-speaking, as the Borrowed English word "Canton" is said to have been taken from the Portuguese name for the Province. Meaning that whoever did the naming of the city in English apparently had so little knowledge of the city that he had to get all of his information from drunk portuguese sailors pushing opium on the native inhabitants

NOBODY, abcdefg, is interested in your little misinformed naming of places

just for a moment lets try and be rational, predjudices and biases aside.

"Canton" did not come from the Cantonese language for the name of Guangzhou, nor did any of the Cantonese people on the planet use it as such, nor did it come from English, nor did it simply materialize out of thin air.

"Canton" is the ACTUAL ROMANIZATION of the Cantonese name for the Province where ALL Cantonese come from. "Canton/Guangdong", they are synonymous.

Chinese have lived in America since before they even had an English name for China. So who's history are you listening to? racist people who pull the corners of their eyes out to the sides everytime they utter the word "Chinese" or are you going to listen to where all things Chinese come from, including the name Canton, the Chinese people...

stop being a racist and try to see through the slanted bias of what is apparantly a Western education--116.22.246.84 (talk) 12:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

"Canton" Name Correction part 3

Its not bias nor racist its a NPOV people can either call it Canton or Gaungzhou. Canton did divert from the Province of Canton the reason why is because at its time the native people didn't even call it Panyu (番禺) it went for 广州 (Capital of Gaung Prefecture) which was name after Guang Prefecture which was not even an official name in Chinese so westerner naturally call Canton = Guangzhou, since went the people call it 广州 (Guang Prefecture) but at its time Guangdong was established. Remember there was no standard romanzation back then and Canton was romanize in meaning of 广东, since Guangzhou didn't go by its official name at the time the westerner just went by calling the "Capital of Canton Province" which equal "Canton" in simplified meaning. And Panyu or Fan-Yü (番禺) was officially rename in at the end of Qing Dynasty as Guangzhou (广州) which then cause conflict with the city's name in western language. But it is still commonly known as Canton in parts of the world even within Guangzhou such as Canton Fair and Kowloon-Canton Railway. Even the Opium War refer Guangzhou as Canton (Battle of Canton). — ASDFGH =] ^talk? 17:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Another reason why Canton is still so widely use is because there aren't much international event going on in the city which did not pressure the central government the promote the Pinyin name Guangzhou even now many people don't know much about the city beside the name Canton where Standard Cantonese came from and the typical Cantonese cuisine such as BBQ pork, Dim Sum, Wonton, etc. All borough abroad from the Pearl River Delta area generalizing as Canton the city. Even today "Canton" represent the city more than Guangdong Province international due western media reports on Guangdong much more than the city which erased the name Canton Province into Guangdong Province. — ASDFGH =] ^talk? 02:04, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

L31 G0NG L41:

That's quite a sweeping Generalization. "Guangzhou" is not the home of Dim Sum, BBQ pork, wonton, etc. Those came from Canton, the province, surrounding areas of Guangzhou in Guangdong and even from Fujian, since Ancient Times. The most famous Cantonese food is from outside of Guangzhou in Guangdong/Canton.

Canton is the name of the province. "Yue 粤" for short. All provinces in China have a shortened form. "Yue" means Guangdong/Canton. "Yue Yu 粤语" means Guangdong/Canton Dialect.

Whether or not those short forms are actually the indigineous original names I am as of yet unsure about.

It was mistakenly used as the name of the city by foreigners, here you have a chance to correct their mistakes. The idea to keep using an incorrect name is definitely not the NPOV, but an attempt to glorify one's mistakes from the "SPOV", or "Superior Point of View".

NPOV people would try to see the Chinese point of view, rather than simply repeating the mistakes of other foreigners.

In the very old days of Guangzhou, the area was run exactly like every other area in Guangdong and most of China, and the division between one place and the other would not have been a division of "importance"

"Canton" as a Chinese name, has always referred to the Province, which holds all of the people of the South China Culture, who migrated here from the original China Capital in the center of China, as the Northern people were migrating south and overpopulating the region. South Chinese people have a very ancient and distinct Chinese culture which they have always kept intact and out of harm's way

The original name of the actual "city" of Guangzhou is "Chu Ting 楚庭" (also another old name for Shanghai, "Hua Ting 华庭" being the origninal Shanghai Name) or sometimes called "Mercato" which was built in the 9th Century B.C.

But long before Guangzhou became an actual city, the "Cantonese" people were spread throughout Guangdong and aroud the Pearl River Delta. After living there for thousands of years, there came a serious drought to the region today called "Guangzhou", and people suffered and died miserabley during that disaster. Then one day 5 clouds appeared in the Sky and on each cloud was a Mystical being Riding a Goat. The Goats each carrried ears of rice in their mouths, and the Celestial Deity blessed the Earth that there should be no more Famine. Eternally Grateful, the people built a building with the statues of the 5 Celestial Beings and the 5 Goats, and this area became known as "Wu Yang Cheng 五羊城" or "The Five Rams' Town", after which it grew in popularity and became the city of "Chu Ting 楚庭"

"Canton/Guangdong" was the name of a travel route built in the area during the Song Dynasty. and during the Qing Dynasty that name was given to become the name of the Province by the invading Manchurians.

Canton has never been the name of Guangzhou. it has also never been the name of several cities in Guangdong, but was the name given to the province by the conquering Manchurians.

Any relationship between the names Canton and Guangzhou is terribly erroneous

The "Canton Fair" does not mean "Guangzhou Fair" but it is the Fair of Canton, particularly those regions around the Pearl River Delta, which are the most important manufacturing and import/export places in all of China (Foshan, Dongguan, Zhongshan, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, etc..)

The Opium War citation you are referring to is in Western English texts only

The Kowloon-Canton Railway is referencing a train servicing from Kowloon to the Region of Canton, including Shenzhen, Dongguan, and the central Capital Guangzhou, with Dongguan being the most economically important of those 3 stations, and the most significant to travellers from Hong Kong to Canton

--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 04:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I am ok with your explaining but you still need sources to prove that Guangzhou ≠ Canton. I see your explanation but you haven't got any sources backing it the Western term of "Canton" only means Guangdong. So We still need sources saying Guangzhou ≠ Canton. Also please use real Picture not drawing like the image of Pearl New Town the east tower does not exist yet. And what about the IATA code of Guangzhou Baiyun International Airport: CAN. — ASDFGH =] ^talk? 23:08, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

L31 G0NG L41:

You aren't grasping anything at all. Your so-called "references" being bogus is what this is all about.

You don't have references. what you have is writings from incompetent people who have created your education

Its something sad, in fact. Please try and petition your Country's Department of Education if you need Further help.

In the meantime, the rest of us will continue to use th ENGLISH Wikipedia from the Native, Local, and Truthful perspective.

Sorry about your dilema, but its an epidemic problem all across Wikipedia. Everything is written from the "White mans" point of view.

and that was fine 100 years ago when nobody was in your country with the power to call you on any of it, but this is the Internet, the World Wide Web. It was created for this exact purpose, joint collaboration on projects from different places around the world.

A side effect of that is that none of your reference books actually hold any water anymore, as the writers obviously never intended for them to be read by the local people of the exotic far away places they were gleefully writing about.

The world is using English as the primary mode of international Communication. So expect that the truth will surface and most of the worlds text will be useless and revealed for the biased lies, cover-ups and racist propaganda that they are

It behooves everyone to behave slightly more humbly when discussing facts with local people in their local home country. To sit and argue the facts in your foreign textbooks with them, demanding for them to materialize "proof" somewhere in the pile of useless rubbish that constitutes the Library in your country, is blatent bigotry and probably also an attempt at very classless humor

I honestly feel that this has become more about protecting your ego than about uncovering the truth

--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 17:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your diatribes, which reveal a great deal of self-righteousness and very little information. As for Peking Duck, I suppose you are going to write a letter to Peking University and ask them to change their official name to "Beijing University". In fact, "Peking" doesn't come from Cantonese, and the Cantonese name for Beijing is not "Peking". Given that you've been living there for 8 years, I would have expected a better command of Cantonese than that.

The name "Canton" is derived from Chinese, but is not actually Chinese. If it were Chinese it would be written "Guangdong" or "Kwangtung", wouldn't it. The application of "Canton" to Guangzhou is confusing. But to say it never has been applied to Guangzhou is to live in a world where opinionated views matter more than facts. Anyone can supply references to show that "Canton" means Guangzhou in English. You may not like it, and it's an old usage that is gradually being phased out as people switch to using Guangzhou and Guangdong, but it is still a fact. Your ravings won't change that.

As for humility in discussing facts with local people in their local home country, there is nothing wrong with that. But I don't think local people have a monopoly on knowledge. They have their own slants and biases like everyone else. Just as outsiders have theirs. What happens when the slant of one lot of people comes up against the slant of another set of people? Like the slant of the Serbs coming up against the slant of the Kosovans? (Just a random example of two violently incompatible slants clashing in one territory). How does your acquiescence in the local version help you then?

You've been in "Canton" for eight years and you're still an Angry Young Man. Come back again when you've been there for fifteen and you might have something worthwhile to say.

Bathrobe (talk) 10:07, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I could never have come to China and had this same conversation with you. I'm Chinese. the name "Canton" is Chinese, and is ONLY Chinese. it has been borrowed into the English language, but will forever be Chinese. you cannot change that fact to give an aire of importance to yourself.

the application of Canton to Guangzhou is confusing like the application of Florida might be to New York

Canton doesn not mean Guangzhou in the same way that Florida cannot ever equal New York, though I'm sure there are people in the world who, like you and your forefathers, might try to mislabel out of sheer ignorance.

Peking, like all other Chinese words in the English language, came from Cantonese, and is the Approximation of the Cantonese word for Beijing, given the general stupidity of other romanizations from Western countries (including your top universities) Peking is really very accurate, on par with anything else you romanize.

Canton is a Chinese word. Get over it. Find your own word. Canton has one meaning, Guangdong. or are you simply unwilling or unable to admit that your exploitive ancestors made a mistake and actually didnt even care about it or were so preoccupied with pushing opium for their rapes and thefts that they didnt even bother to recognize such a blatently stupid mistake which was such an integral part of their daily lives?

it doesnt surprise me, and it shouldnt surprise anyone else. I know people who have been in China 20 years and are still as ignorant as they were when they first got here; just as ignorant as their early forefathers were--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 18:50, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, "Peking" is not from Cantonese. For the same reason that "Sinkiang" is not from Cantonese. Think about it. What is the Cantonese pronunciation of 新疆? Nor is "Nanking" from Cantonese, or it would have been "Namking". If your knowledge of everything else is on a par with your logic about language, you should pack up and stop bothering us with your tiresome tirades.

Bathrobe (talk) 14:49, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

"Canton" Name Correction part 4

I have lived several years in GuangZhou (I admit that this doesn't make me an expert on China) and like everyone else always thought that Canton was an old form for GuangZhou. It may not be historically accurate but, sorry to say, that is what everyone thinks. Rewritting history is not in Wikipedia's mission statement. Wikipedia is an on-line encyclopedia, not a blog.

But if Canton is not GuangZhou then this Wikipedia page should not be the only place to recognize this (new) fact! The Wikipedia GuangZhou pages in other languages also refer to the city name as Canton. E.g. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_(Chine)

Someone needs to contact IATA as the GuangZhou airport is mistakenly called CAN.

Wikipedia is about verifiable facts and should not be used to start a crusade to correct history using today's flavour. Again, I am not saying that you are wrong. I am only saying that GuangZhou is unversally recognized as Canton and that it does not serve the general public to pretend that it isn't so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gentleman wiki (talk • contribs) 23:33, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

i'm sorry, who is this "like everyone else?"?? i have lived in Guangzhou for 8 years, I can walk outside right now and conduct a poll of 25 million people, i assure you, NOBODY "thinks" that Canton is the name of Guangzhou, as surely as nobody thinks that Guangdong is the name of Guangzhou.

maybe, just maybe, if i went to where the most ignorant people in China are (where westerners gather and hang out) I may find 90% of the people "think that". But alas, this is China, and I am Chinese, and I have Chinese friends.

you are being a racist pig. you think that because you are white you have the "western point of view"? i was born in America, I am an American citizen, I am also Chinese by blood, stop trying to tell me that you are everybody and i am nobody simply because I am not an ignorant white person who you feel are the only "legitimate" people with the ony "legitimate" ideas. I am growing tired of your racism and slanderous bigotry.

your history is not above the truth, and the truth is not and will never be "today's flavor". I am sorry if that offends your ultra-nationalistic view of the superiority of your race and education.

the fact that Canton is ALREADY a Chinese word in Cantonese negates your argument. if you wish to make up your own words for places, you should try NOT using the local dialect for other places. that's not how it works in any country where you cant get away with such blatent racism. "Chicago" "Wyoming" "Utah" "Kentucky" are the native American terms for the areas. you killed all of them, so we really will never know if "Kentucky" referred to a region or one specific rock. And unless you plan on killing everyone in China too, I suggest you go ahead and drop your facade and use the local name. or change "Canton city" to "Candyland", this way the idiot racist bigots over at IATA wont have to change the Superior 3 letter holy-code of airlines. which refers to Canton Province anyway, because most of the people who would have a heart attack from seeing the scary and mystically paradoxical letter "Z" in Guangzhou have already died.

from now on, please refer to Guangzhou as "Candyland" in English, or some other non-Chinese word

all Chinese, including Hong Kong people, refer to the Guangdong dialect as "Cantonese", ALL Guangdong people refer to ALL their many variants of the language which are not standardized under Baihua as "Cantonese"

Cantonese immmigrants are all called cantonese, but very few are actually from Guangzhou. ALL people in Guangdong refer to themselves as Cantonese, likewise, all food from Guangdong is known the world over as Cantonese food, with Guangzhou-specific cuisine dwarfing in comparison to surronding cities in fame and recognition. Cantonese food is most famous in cities outside of Guangzhou.

you dont have any argument at all, yet you keep changing the Wiki to support your own crappy education, personal agendas, and whimsical ideas.

Notice, please, how all of my examples are ACTUALLY TO DO WITH CHINESE PEOPLE, whereas all of your examples have something to do with foreigners, thefts, rapes, opium peddling, perverted sailors, failed attempts at romanization, and miscommunications between Westerners and Chinese, which boils down to outright racist bigotry rooted in exploitive ulterior motives

or are you next going to provide us with a thesis on why idiot Westerners get to make all of the rules because they speak english and it was their idiot forefathers who made those first 'divine' errors you hold so sacred?

and your "Guangzhou Postal Map" theory of How the Chinese language came to be is laughable at best. Romanization was introduced by foreigners, Chinese dont have romanization. they dont have roman characters. why would they? this is China. and a clerical error or misuderstanding or lack of caring, or trying to make things easier, or simply following what idiot foreigners thought the name was, or (most likely) playing a funny joke an naive and unsuspecting "Laowai" is NOT, i repeat: NOT a reason to try and force it down the throats of all generations to come. its ludicrous that you would take an obviously erroneous quasi-historical anomally as some sort of truth. If you wish to do so, please, by all means, create your own litttle website with your own view of the world, and dig up all the mistakes you can find and call it "The Technically Truthful Encylopedia" or "Tikipedia", for short.--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 15:32, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

You can go on and on forever. Foreigners mistake Luzon for the Philippines. "Macau" was simply a temple in Aomen. Chinese Americans call Mexicans "Luzon-ren". And on and on. What's absolutely undeniable that the Qing government and the ROC government both recognized "Canton" as the English name for the city of Guangzhou. How the etymological mistake occurred does not change that fact. HkCaGu (talk) 15:34, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I think I would have to go on for ever and ever. NOBODY calls Tijuana "Mexico" and that is EXACTLY what you are doing. NOBODY mistakenly calls Lima "Peru", and nobody, except you, mistakenly calls Luzon "Philippines", or Bali "Indonesia. and thats exactly the kind of ignorance your are propagating. NOBODY CALLS CANTON GUANGZHOU just as surely as nobody calls Guangdong Guangzhou. or at least most rational people would not suspect such people to exist in a rational world.

you are doing nothing but perpetuating ignorance and stupidity. Canton IS A CANTONESE WORD AND CANTONESE NAME, RECOGNIZED BY OVER 50% OF THE WORLDS POPULATION. 1/3 of the worlds population is right here in China. Should that count for something? or is this all about racism and bigotry and the superiority of white people?

granted, in the 1940's you could call China Chinkville and get it published on a map. That doesnt mean that educated and reasoning 'men' will continue to cling to the ignorance you hold so dear. On the contrary, truthful, clear, reasoning, intelligent and comprehending men would prefer the truth.

perhaps we could put it to a vote? and could the Chinese be included in that vote or is it for superior white aryans only?--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 16:03, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I think there is some problem with you connecting the "romanization" to the sound it makes. Maybe if you rolled the map up that also has Hawaii labelled as "Sandwich Islands" (because that is what the captain was eating when he first laid eyes on it) and set it aside for a minute and try to in fact reason things out a little more "Socially" I know it can be difficult, we get so wrapped up on the internet, but lets try to say it out loud "Canton".. allow me to illustrate your brain child

Foreigner: "I would like to go to Canton"

Chinese: "where?"

Foreigner: "Canton"

Chinese: "ok"

(leaves HongKong, arrives in Shenzhen)

Chinese: "here you are"

Foreigner: "what do you mean 'here I am'?"

Chinese: "we are in Canton"

Foreigner: "nono, i mean the city canton, this is Shenzhen"

Chinese: "I know. this is Canton"

Foreigner: "nonono, wait, look here, I have a map"

Chinese: "oh, very old map"

Foreigner: "yes it is, its from the 1940's, please be careful with it"

Chinese: "oh, it doesnt look like a normal map"

Foreigner: "no it isn't, it's a postal map"

Chinese: "ooh, how did you get one of those?"

Foreigner: "I'm an expert on Chinese culture"

Chinese: "wow, you don't say.."

Foreigner: "now, look here, this is where i want to go, you see? it reads 'City of Canton'"

Chinese: "oh, i see, ok I will take you there"

Foreigner: "thanks, and in the future don't forget, the name of that city is 'Canton'"

Chinese: "you are the expert"

Foreigner: "that's right, I am"

Chinese: "ok, here we are, which part of Kuangchow would you like to go?"

Foreigner: "look, i'm only going to tell you this one more time, I am not going to 'kuangchow', I am going to Canton"

Chinese: "you are in Canton now"

Foreigner: "Thank you, take me to the Garden Hotel"

Chinese: "where?"

--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 16:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages by deliberately introducing incorrect information, as you did to Guangzhou, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. HkCaGu (talk) 16:05, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

look, your postal map is not "evidence which refutes truth", so ban me from the wiki, i dont care, they are going to either ban me or you over guangzhou, but as I doubt you could live without the wiki, and I and most respectable people never even read the wiki because of people like you, we'll go ahead and let you have your way, and, for the record, anyone reading this ever should never pay any attention to anything written on wikipedia, it is all bullcrap written by the worlds most incompetent, biased, small-minded, and somehow most arrogant people.--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 16:30, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

There's plenty of websites referring to Guangzhou as Canton so I've added it back in with a reference. --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 16:50, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, this is an encyclopedia, and as such is a self-contained volume of hopefully accurate information, and not a link to "other websites"

you cannot write "traditionally romanized" as Canton. How can you "traditionally romanize" something in the first place? all you can say is "erroneously romanized"

Romanization means, by definition, the word in the language is given its closest Roman phonetic symbol which is universally readable by roman-based laguages

can Beijing possibly be romanized as "s-h-a-n-g-h-a-i? would that make any sense at all?

Beijing cannot be "romanized" as "shanghai" because that not what romanization means

perhaps you would like to rewrite the wiki so as not to be a complete lie?

perhaps instead of "romanized" you could say "called" or "known as" or something less intelligent?

I am now going to re-fix the wiki

Actually, this is completely and utterly wrong. Content should only be added to articles if it can be sourced to reliable sources. Verifiability is a core principle here. --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 17:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

there is 1.3 billion reliable sources right here that will tell you that Canton doesn not mean guangzhou, and there is about 10,000 across the bborder who would argue to the contrary. I dont get your reasoning.

The current version works for me. --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 17:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

there are several things wrong with your last edit. its removed several facts which didnt need removing, can you please explain why you thought they should be removed?

1. it doesnt state that Canton is ACTUALLY the name of the province and will confuse everybody, Chinese and Foreigners alike who are doing business in China

2. it doesnt state where the name Canton comes from, yet you people seem hellbent on including it as the name of the city, yet refuse to discuss this suddenly strange annomally which has no explanation, which no doubt makes minds wonder and heads spin about in darkness when reading it.

3. is wikipedia supposed to be an enigma? is that supposed to make it more interesting? is there a page on how to make things enigmatic, dark, and mysterious, while still protecting the frail egoes of white people?

All the article says now is that Guangzhou used to be known as Canton to Westerners. Nothing about Romanization. If you want to state why Guangzhou was known as Canton then find some reliable sources to add as references and we can probably add it to the article. --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 18:04, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I can accept the following edit:

Guangzhou (simplified Chinese: 广州; traditional Chinese: 廣州; pinyin: Guǎngzhōu; jyutping : Gwong²zau¹; Yale: Gwóngjàu), formerly known by Westerners as Canton[2] (which is actually the name of the province Guangdong, in Cantonese) and also known as Kwangchow, is a sub-provincial city and the capital of Guangdong Province in the southern part of the People's Republic of China.--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 18:05, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

You're simply wrong. Guangdong is not phonologically equivalent to "Canton", except for a street name in Hong Kong (where the Queen was translated as the King's wife). You're wrong that it isn't already explained. Simply read the history section. HkCaGu (talk) 18:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable source that says Guangdong province = Canton. --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 18:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Guangdong is Hanyu Pinyin spelling for the Mandarin pronunciation of the Yue Province. In Cantonese, the native language of everyone living in Yue province, hongkong, Macau, and 99% of overseas Chinese, te name of Yue Province is "Canton" exactly. that is the exact romanization of Cantonese name of Yue Province. or "Guangdong" (mandarin spelling) province.

once again:

Mandarin language pronunciation for this province Romanized using hanyu pinyin: "Guangdong"

Cantonese language pronunciation for this province Romanized using the closest Roman language spelling proximity: "Canton"

now I'm sure you are still angry there is no more kingdom to back you up here, and I know you are too proud to concede, so to enforce this information into your brain, i will give you a little puzzle. "Where did the term 'Canton' come from?" you figure that out for yourself and you can continue editing, until then, stop your racist propaganda.

i will give you a hint: "It was not from the name of a street in Hong Kong"--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 18:19, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Nor did it come from Portuguese "Canto" although apparently the people speaking Portuguese were far more intelligent than the people speaking English, as at least they got the name of the province right. If English speaking people were to have gotten the name soley from Portuguese, the name would simply be "Canto" in English, and not "Canton" the actual perfectly spelled name for the province in Cantonese. And then we would also have to believe that the English people were so stupid they couldn't even understand the Portuguese people, and didnt even know if they were referring to a province or a city when using the term Canto, and so were in fact running around like chickens with their heads cut off not understanding anyone at all.. which isnt that far-fetched of an idea and would explain why they make everyone learn English--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 18:29, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I suggest we ignore this person. Arguing with him is a waste of time. I have challenged him to justify his statement that "Peking" is from Cantonese and hasn't even bothered to give a response, just dishing up the same old stuff about racism, bigotry, drunken sailors, rapists, etc., and putting forward 1.3 billion Chinese speakers as arbiters of English usage. He is a massive POV warrior with a huge chip on his shoulder. Ignore him.

Bathrobe (talk) 02:04, 27 September 2009 (UTC)