Talk:Grinch/Archive 1

Archive 1

Creation/Development

For reasons specified on the talk page for How the Grinch Stole Christmas!, I created this article. To sum it up, The Grinch is a cultural icon himself, as a character. Not just as a book (further proved in the three multiple Emmy winning TV specials produced by Dr. Seuss).

I will be adding a lot of information to this in the next days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmurawski (talk • contribs) 06:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Species/Identification

what species or other identification is Grinch knowed as? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.110.223 (talk) 16:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Dr. Seuss's Grendel?

Has anyone ever noticed the similarities between The Grinch and Beowulf's Grendel? Grendel was a demon, a descendant of the long-ago outcast Cain. Grendel hated the celebrations of the Danish warriors in the Mead Hall. He swore revenge, leaving his roost as ruler of the Fen Lands to do so. Every night, he'd attack anyone inhabiting (usually passed out from drinking) the Mead Hall. He'd kill them and eat their lifeless bodies. Eventually, Beowulf came to the aid of the Danes and defeated Grendel by ripping off Grendel's arm with nothing but his own strength of hand grip. The Grinch, in a more child-friendly way, is very similar Grendel (without the bad ending for Grendel.) Especially in his story, HTGSC, The Grinch shows many similarities. He was sick of happiness, did his misdeeds at night while his victims were asleep, was out to rob society of their happiness as they had "taken" away his (by making him an outcast.) Also, The Grinch's background is never explained, especially as to why he lives independent of mainstream society and why he hated society so much. I think Dr. Seuss was thinking of Grendel when he wrote The Grinch.PokeHomsar (talk) 22:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Alcoholic drink?

Today's drink in Facebook's Top Friends app is called a Grinch. Is this a real drink, or something they made up? If it is a real drink, is it notable enough to be mentioned in the article? Dansiman (talk|Contribs) 18:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Critical analysis section

In an effort to add some "real world" content to the page and make the article more fitting of an encyclopedia, I've added a section devoted to critical studies and analysis of the character, though at the moment it only covers reviews of the 2000 film version of the character. Anybody who can find info on critics' views of the character/actors portraying the character in literature or media adaptions is welcome to add more. Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 20:56, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

No mention of the Krampus?

After doing more reaserach into the Krampus http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Krampus it really seems that Dr. Seuss based his idea of the Grinch on the Krampus.

And one little point, the Grinch lives on Mount Crumpit which sounds very similar to Krampus. Maxtro (talk) 00:32, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Grinch and Scrooge

Grinch has many similarities to Scrooge (in A Christmas Carol). But had you noticed that the word Grinch itself, when spoken backwards, sounds a bit like Scrooge? 29 December 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.100.42.43 (talk) 17:46, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Russian origin of "Grinch"

Connymenzel (talk · contribs) has added this "probable etymology" [1]:

The name almost certainly derives from a Russian dialect word гринч ‘humbug’<ref>Ozhegov, S.I., ''Словарь Русского Языка'' — Mir i Obrazovanie (2012). ISBN 978-5488017184.</ref>.

I'm skeptical. There's no indication that this book, a Russian dictionary, is an authority on Dr. Seuss or the Grinch, or that Seuss had any background in the Russian language to support this claim. (Contrast with the well-known and well-documented Russian origin of many words in A Clockwork Orange; see Nadsat). Per WP:Identifying reliable sources, context matters here. ("Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content.") I don't see any basis to conclude that a Russian dictionary, which may well be a reliable source for an article on the Russian language, is a reliable source for an article on a character of English-language children's literature. The Oxford English Dictionary does not mention any possible Russian origin; it ascribes the word solely as an invention by Seuss. If the word "Grinch" "undoubtedly" derives from the Russian, I'd expect to see further documentation of this conclusion, particularly in English-language publications of widespread availability.

Also, as a preliminary matter, I have doubts about whether the book is a reliable source of any kind. A search of the ISBN on WorldCat does not show it in the holdings of any major library, nor does it have an entry on Google Books. I see there's one copy for sale on Amazon, but that's not much of an endorsement, either. This strikes me as a pretty obscure reference, not at all the "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" contemplated by WP:RS.

Ordinarily, I'd leave the passage in the article, pending the discussion, but especially given the time of year, this is likely one of those items that could lead to citogenesis, so in the interest of preventing that, I am deleting; if a consensus is reached here to include it, it can be restored. (This is consistent with WP:BRD.) TJRC (talk) 18:19, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I am disappointed that this etymology note has been deleted. The Ozhegov was the standard Russian-Russian definition dictionary for fifty years and more, regardless of how many copies may be on sale on Amazon - is that how we judge reliability of sources? There are plenty of references to it in Russian on Googlebooks - here's one: https://books.google.co.uk/books It came out in 1949, and was on the essential undergraduate book list for all students of Russian at Cambridge, including me. I do not follow the argument that it is not 'an authority on Dr. Seuss' - of course it's not. The suggestion (OK - I'd be prepared to accept 'possible etymology' rather than 'probable etymology'), because of the striking coincidence of word and meaning, is clearly that Seuss may have got the name from the existing Russian word, certainly not that the word was introduced into this general Russian dictionary from Seuss. The strong similarity is surely interesting enough to be mentioned, isn't it? Connymenzel (talk) 15:09, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

The article is on a Seuss character. If the source is not an authority on Seuss or the character, it's opining outside its area of expertise. Accepting for the sake of argument that the work is an authority on the Russian language, there's still no indication that it's authoritative on the topic of the article. See WP:RSCONTEXT in WP:Identifying reliable sources.

This cite strikes me as someone knowledgeable in Russian noting a resemblance and making a pretty big leap to the conclusion that the character is named for the Russian word. For that claim, you need support from a source that is knowledgeable about the character or Seuss's work.

This is far more likely to be an example of "pseudoetymology" based on mere resemblance. It would be like an expert in the Greek language noting the resemblance between the Greek word "potamos" ("river") and determining that it was the basis for the name of the Potomac River. At best it's WP:FRINGE; with only one source making this claim, and the source not being an authority on the subject (Seuss's derivation; not the Russian language itself) this can hardly be characterized as a mainstream view.

BTW, I'm not claiming "that the word was introduced into this general Russian dictionary from Seuss." TJRC (talk) 18:45, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

General Review

I found this article somewhat colloquial and story-like. Adjectives such as "apparently" and "optimistic" were used, which does not strike me as appropriate language for an encyclopedia entry. Also, under the heading "Character Description," I expected to hear more about who the Grinch was as opposed to the well-known storyline he follows. This is a plot, not a description. In regards to citations, the history portion lacks citation, which invalidates the information. However, brava for writing a neutral article! Most of the citations come from news sources or media. I think in order for this article to be more supported, more citations need to be added from more professional and reliable sources. For example, in my mind "Rotten Tomatoes" is not a reliable source for an encyclopedia entry; however, a study on the Grinch movie might be better. So with all this said, I'd like to pose two questions: 1. If stripped of the Grinch plot line, what is the Grinch's core character and corresponding description? 2. Do media sources really fill out this article or could more be added to provide further reliability? Melyssaeve (talk) 21:58, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Halloween Template

Why does this article have the holloween template at the bottom? Holloween has nothing to do with the Grinch. Crashedata (talk) 21:55, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Removed it. Crashedata (talk) 22:01, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

kids do dress up as the Grinch on Halloween.Now I understand what you meant 65.255.147.20 (talk) 15:46, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

The article does reference the 1977 animated TV story "Halloween is Grinch Night" - it's a prequel to "How the Grinch stole Christmas". It's not very well known and it rarely gets rebroadcast anymore; but it was written by Dr. Seuss and it does tie the Grinch to Halloween. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:39, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Gender of the Grinch?

An IP has twice changed the gender of the Grinch from "male" to "none"[2][3] without providing any reasoning whatsoever for the change.

This is a very minor issue regarding a fictional character. But, Dr. Seuss repeatedly used the masculine pronoun when referencing the Grinch; for example, the line “And he, he himself...the Grinch...carved the roast-beast!” from How the Grinch Stole Christmas!. Even the 1966 TV special has music and lyrics for You're a Mean One, Mr. Grinch - clearly identifying the Grinch as "Mr.". As a result, I view the IP changes as silliness bordering on vandalism ... but I wanted to bring it here to get additional opinions before reverting again. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:05, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

This is not "bordering" on vandalism. If an unidentified user knowingly changes the article to contradict the sources, it is textbook vandalism.Dimadick (talk) 22:02, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Other pages

Why on Earth is there a link to the video game but not the film? This is a bizarre situation. Cwbr77 (talk) 11:06, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

A hatnote is meant to clarify two similarly named articles, not to act as a directory of all articles where the subject is mentioned. The character and the video game are both named "The Grinch", so a hatnote is appropriate for that. The film has several additional words, the article titles are clearly different, so no hatnote is needed to distinguish them. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:42, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Whether the grinch wears pants

Found an article from Refinery29:

• Lindsay, Kathryn (March 2018). "Wait, Is The Grinch Naked Or Wearing Green Fuzzy Pants?". Refinery29.

WhisperToMe (talk) 15:08, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 14 December 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 04:38, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

---

Grinch → The Grinch – The character is usually referred to as "The Grinch," not "Grinch". Trivialist (talk) 01:51, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:THE (which I don't entirely agree with, but them's the breaks). He is usually known as "the Grinch", not "The Grinch", which makes "Grinch" the preferred Wiki title. Nohomersryan (talk) 05:57, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose "The" is not part of the name. Dimadick (talk) 17:44, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per the aboves, though it may be time to reconsider WP:THE. -- Calidum 19:07, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The Grinch's species

I feel like his species should be listed as "grinch" because that's what he is. Booger-mike (talk) 00:42, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Derivation of the word

The word is very likely derived from the French root grinch-, as in grincheux or grincheuse -- grumpy.

This is (a) interesting, and (b) unevidenced, so I won't add it to the article. I posted it here for your edification and amusement, and in case anyone can find proof of a connection. Scarabocchio (talk) 04:43, 8 January 2021 (UTC)