Talk:Ghe with upturn

Untitled

In official Unicode terminology,

• Г = ghe
• Ґ = ghe with upturn

(see http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0400.pdf), and a number of other sources also choose to call Г "ghe" instead of "ge".

To avoid confusion, perhaps Ghe should be a disambiguation page. Or at least contain a disambiguating link at the top to Ge (Cyrillic). -- Curps 11:45, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the differentiation between ge and ghe seems meaningless. See talk:ge (Cyrillic). —Michael Z. 2005-10-20 13:10 Z

I have made Ghe a disambiguation page. Coroboy (talk) 18:03, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Requested move to Ge with upturn

• Support —Michael Z. 2005-11-28 15:55 Z

If you agree with this, why do you think that ghe should redirect here rather than to ge (Cyrillic)? Is there something I don't know? Nikola 15:01, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

My mistake, I was correcting a recent cut-and-paste move of this page by Openthedoor754, and confused the two. But now that you mention it, didn't some editors think that "ghe" was a synonym for the Ukrainian ge, as opposed to Russian ge? —Michael Z. 2006-01-3 17:24 Z

Yes. It would be good if someone would point out where do these names originate (is ghe an old transliteration or what)? If Ukrainians call Г "He", do they call this letter "He with upturn" or maybe even "Ge"? Nikola 06:59, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Excellent question. I asked the same thing at talk:Ge (Cyrillic), and Mikka insisted that "Ghe" was significant in contrast to "Ge", although he refused to elaborate. I don't know what "ghe" is. It doesn't seem to be a transliteration of anything from a Slavic language; would it be pronounced /ge/ or /he/? Unicode calls the glyphs г and ґ "GHE" and "GHE WITH UPTURN", so that seems to be the origin of "ghe", but it obviously isn't meant to be any different from ge (I think Mikka may have been bulshitting us).

The native Ukrainian name of ґ is ge. —Michael Z. 2006-01-4 08:50 Z

• Support:
  • The native Ukrainian name of the Ґґ letter is /ge/.
  • We can't set name of this article (about Ґґ) to "Ge (Cyrillic)", as it's already reserved for article about Гг (which is called /ge/ by Russians and /ɦe/ or /ɣe/ by Ukrainians and Belarusians). While being Ukrainian, I think it's ok, as Russian alphabet is much more widely recognized.
  • The original rationale of those who called this article "Ghe with upturn" was probably the following: "We can't use 'Ge (Cyrillic)' name as it's already used for another letter. When Ukrainians need to name Ґґ in some media that have technical restrictions and can't clearly display/voice it, they refer it as 'Гг with upturn'. Assuming that Ukrainian name of Гг can be romanized as 'ghe', let's call article for Ґґ as 'ghe with upturn'."
  • The problems with this rationale are:
    • "Ghe" is not recognized as name for Гг even by Ukrainians. Standard romanization of Ukrainian Г's letter sound is "h" (it's romanized as "gh" only after Зз ("z") to avoid confusion with sound "zh"); non-standard (but still widely recognized) romanization of Ukrainian Гг's letter sound is "g". In no way "ghe" is correct romanization of Гг letter's name ("ге").
    • There is no reason why article's name must be romanization of precisely "Гг with upturn". It can be also romanization of precisely "Ґґ with upturn". It's pretty ok for Ukrainian to refer Ґґ as "Ґґ with upturn" (it isn't tautology, it's just clarification).
  • Therefore I support calling this article "Ge with upturn" or "Ge with upturn (Cyrillic)". It will be recognized as "Ґґ with upturn" by those Ukrainians who prefer standard romanizations (Г — H, Ґ — G) and as "Гг with upturn" by those Ukrainians that prefer other romanizations (e.g.: Г — G, Ґ — Ǧ). And new name would make much better pair to Ge (Cyrillic), than current name. Current name is, per my opinion, recognized by nobody. Sasha1024 (talk) 22:47, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
  • On the other hand CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER GHE WITH UPTURN and CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER GHE WITH UPTURN appear as to be Unicode character names. Now I doubt. Sasha1024 (talk) 11:46, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

The italic form

The Times New Roman have a wrong italic form of small letter. The right form is ґ.--Юе Артеміс (talk) 06:53, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I added font Palatino Linotype ahead of font Times New Roman for display of italic character. —Coroboy (talk) 12:14, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 14 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 00:28, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

---

Ghe with upturn → Ge with upturn – For consistency, all other articles on ge or its variants are titled ge and not ghe. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 23:25, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Oppose  It looks like an improvement on the surface, but it is incorrect. Please bear with my explanation.

To understand the context, one must know that the letterform (grapheme) Г/г represents the letter g in Bulgarian, Russian and other languages, and the letter h in Ukrainian and Rusyn. The grapheme Ґ/ґ, a modified version of the other, is the letter g in Ukrainian and Rusyn (it is also in a non-standard Belarusian orthography).

Native spoken names of the letter Г/г are he in Ukrainian and hy in Rusyn, and names of Ґ/ґ are respectively ge and gy.

The current Unicode 15 standard calls the letterform Г/г ghe, a compromise name representing both ge and he. Unicode calls Ґ/ґ ghe with upturn: a description of the graphical letterform that can only be properly parsed as a modified letter with reference to the other letterform ghe.

But there is a disconnect. Our other article’s title Ge (Cyrillic) is based on non-Rusyn, non-Ukrainian names for Г/г. So “Ge with upturn” is based on a foreign representation, an exonymic etymology that we are coining, with no reference to any reliable sources.

This letter in Rusyn and Ukrainian context could be described accurately as “hy/he with upturn (added),” or just “gy/ge”; it is not “gy/ge, (modified) with upturn.” This article should not be titled with reference to another letterform using foreign-language logic.

(By the way, linguistic sources generally refer to the letter by itself as g when the context of a national language is clear, or I suppose in an international context like the Rusyn letter g or Ukrainian g. But like many articles in Category:Cyrillic letters, this one’s subject is an international letterform, not a monolingual letter.)

So perhaps a better title might be Ge (Rusyn and Ukrainian) or Ge (he with upturn). —Michael Z. 18:05, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

The name ge with upturn is practically unused in sources. It appeared in the 1991 Unicode standard 1.0 (p 208). In the 1993 version 1.1 it was demoted to an alternate name below ghe with upturn (p 50), and in the 1996 version 2.0 it disappeared (p 7-52). It also appears in the English-language abstract for a 2017 Russian-language paper.[1]  —Michael Z. 19:17, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per above—blindlynx 14:16, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Any insight on an improved title? The current one is out of context because there is no article Ghe (Cyrillic).

See also Talk:Ge (Cyrillic)#The name ghe.  —Michael Z. 16:08, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

How about Ukrainian Ge? 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 22:13, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

It’s an easy solution, but not totally satisfactory because it privileges the Ukrainian language over Rusyn.

There is a sort of three-level hierarchy here: 1) Ukrainian is a state language and the letter is part of the state-standard orthography. 2) Rusyn-speakers have no state, and they are working towards unifying three different conventions into a single standard, but still, this is an obligatory part of their lect and I am reticent to treat it as less significant or something. 3) Belarusian has an official and widely (universally?) used standard, and this letter does not belong to it, so I am not worried about Belarusian being named.

This issue also applies to Ukrainian Ye, and possibly Komi Dje, Komi Nje, and Komi Zje which are also used in Mordvin.

(Aside on capitalization: Ukrainian Ge, or Ukrainian ge? Compare Turned A, Small capital B, but Turned g, Turned h with fishhook, Latin iota, Long s. It seems to me that a letter representing itself might be good capitalized, like A B C, but a letter’s name is not a proper noun, so, alpha, beta, ge, and ye are more correct. On the other other hand, initial cap is consistent with articles in Category:Cyrillic letters, so I guess that’s the way to go for now barring a broader conversation.)  —Michael Z. 04:38, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

On capitalization, capitalize both words as that appears to be the standard for Cyrillic letters. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 00:04, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

'ghe' seems like a weird compromise 'Ukrainian ge' is fine i guess given that Rusyn get it from Uki... something slightly broader like 'Ruthenian Ge' doesn't work though—blindlynx 20:18, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

also 'ghe' really seems like it should apply to г not ґ given the later never makes an h sound—blindlynx 20:20, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.