Talk:Gerard Gertoux

Previously "Create protected"

The article had been salted previously. I accepted this draft since it is likely, in my view, to survive an immediate deletion process. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 08:19, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Requires editing

I am not sure that the excessive space given to other people writing on the topics written about by Gertoux are at all relevant, nor that the entire tetragrammaton material should be covered here in such depth. º¦ Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me º¦ 08:21, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Notified WikiProjects:

• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Bible#Expert needed: Gerard Gertoux
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jewish history#Expert needed: Gerard Gertoux
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Linguistics#Expert needed: Gerard Gertoux
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Alternative views#Expert needed: Gerard Gertoux
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jehovah's Witnesses#Expert needed: Gerard Gertoux

--Alalch E. 12:49, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Blatantly put, this is a WP:COATRACK article that promotes a particular Jehovah's Witnesses' viewpoint regarding the Tetragrammaton, as evidenced by sentences such as: Pavlos D. Vasileiadis also considers the work of G. Gertoux as a source that presents an overview of the long-standing efforts to translate the Tetragrammaton into Greek. Roberto Guidotti says that others, such as the scholar Gérard Gertoux, argue convincingly that the correct pronunciation is Jehovah. Didier Fontaine says that "Gertoux gives more than twenty 'explanations' (p.64) that make you think". Charles Perrot told him in a letter that "the remarks on the pronunciation of YHWH seem to me very pertinent, even if, at present, it is in practice a little difficult to 'back off'".--Alalch E. 12:53, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Alalch E. From the mountain of text below which is wholly irrelevant, I agree with you. I accepted it as having, in my view then, a better than 50% chance of surviving an immediate deletion discussion. I see no obstacle to putting that to the test. º¦ Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me º¦ 15:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to get very involved in this article, partly because I semi-burned-out in discussing similar topics in various mailing lists and discussion boards years ago, but Gerard Gertoux and Rolf Furuli use their academic degrees in part to try to obfuscate the fact that certain aspects of the practices of their religious groups do not accord with the findings of mainstream Biblical, philological, and linguistic scholarship -- but at least Rolf Furuli got his PhD. in an ordinary way, while the academic path of Gerard Gertoux seems somewhat tortuous and strange... AnonMoos (talk) 03:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Scholars' opinions

Great swathe of text that has no relevance to the biography.

In the article there are opinions that surely agree with Sacred Name Movement, in which mainstream Christianity theologies disagree. However, the views of experts from minority denominations are few. Some opinions are already in the article and may be unnecessary, but since they are being discussed, it may be necessary to mention them here on the discussion page: Kurian, George Thomas; Lamport, Mark A., eds. (2016). "Sacred Name Movement". Encyclopedia of Christianity in the United States. Vol. 5. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 2003. ISBN 9781442244320. Against the consensus that God's name was pronounced 'Yahweh', Gérard Gertoux has defended 'Yehowah'. Gertoux has also been cited in the academic world, for example in the Encyclopedia of Christianity [1], Encyclopedia of Ancient Christianity [2] and Mega'ly Ortho'docy Xristianiky% Eguklopai'deia (MOXE) (Great Orthodox Christian Encyclopedia) [3]. Aviv Schoenfeld: "I adopt the (albeit minority) view that one of its ancient vocalizations was y@howO¯ (Gertoux 2015), contra the mainstream consensus that it was only yahwE".[4] Won W. Lee: "this detailed treatment of the name is useful for those who are interested in the history of its translation in the centuries".[5] Brigitte Sion: Après un parcours historique d'Adam à nos jours, l'auteur explore les problèmes de transcription et de vocalisation. Les dictionnaires indiquent que Yahvé (ou Yahweh) est une vocalisation incertaine, et que Jéhovah est un barbarisme provenant d'une mauvaise lecture. Dans cet historique du nom divin, Gérard Gertoux, hébraïsant tétragrammiste, démontre preuves à l'appui, que cette dernière affirmation est délibérément fausse [...] Puisque les voyelles sont a ,o, a, on aurait dû avoir le Nom pointé ainsi ; Or, comme le rappelle GG (page 124), on ne retrouve jamais cette forme. Des raisons grammaticales sont invoquées, mais sans fondement sérieux [...] Ainsi, pour Gérard Gertoux, la forme actuelle YeHoWah, que l'on trouve dans les Bibles juives, est le fruit d'une longue histoire. Par le plus grand des paradoxes, le système du queré/ketib, qui consiste à prononcer un mot à la place d'un autre, et qui était censé protéger le nom de Dieu, l'a réellement protégé (page 125) [...] Dans ce contexte, l'étude d'ensemble de Gérard Gertoux invite plus à une réflexion personnelle. [6] Bruce M. Metzger: "for further scholarly information on the origins of sacred names, please visit the pages of Gérard GERTOUX". [7][8] François Boespflug: "Ringrazio vivamente Gérard Gertoux che con la sua disponibilita ha portato queste tema alla mia attenzione e mi ha fornito delle preziose indicazioni (che utilizzero di seguito)". [9] George Wesley Buchanan: "for the use of Yehowah rather than Yahowah see the thesis of Gérard Gertoux"; "Based on this data, the divine name will be spelled arbitrarily Yehowah".[10] George Wesley Buchanan: "let me thank you very much for sending me your excellent thesis. I trust that will soon have it published". [11] Daniel Faivre: "pour une étude plus complete, voir G Gertoux". [12] Daniel Faivre: "mon premier sentiment est très positif. Il s'agit d'un impressionnant travail d'érudition sur le Tétragramme, qui dépasse largement les analyses que j'ai développées dans mon dernier ouvrage". "J'ai parcouru avec beaucoup d'intérêt votre document [...] Mais l'impression qui s'en dégage est très favorable. C'est un travail d'une grande érudition, s'appuyant des méthodes de recherches littéraires, linguistiques et historiques solides et complètes (...) Je vous souhaite bonne chance pour la publication de cette contribution, qui me paraît -j'insiste sur ce fait- tout à fait utile".[13] Robert J. Wilkinson: Gertoux "holds strong views about its pronunciation and meaning". [14] Philippe Barbey: "Gérard Gertoux, dans son ouvrage exhaustif consacré au nom de Dieu". [15] Antonio Macaya Pascual: Gertoux "argumenta con muchas citas que sí se pronunciaba el nombre de YHWH hasta el siglo II d. C.".[16] Charles Perrot (priest): "Vos remarques sur la prononciation de YHWH me paraissent fort pertinentes, même si, actuellement, il est en pratique un peu difficile de 'faire machine arrière', sans donner l'impression de céder aux Témoins de Jéhovah". [17] André Chouraqui complimented Gertoux and quoted him in his book Moïse (p. 161)". [18] Roberto Guidotti: "Altri, come lo studioso Gérard Gertoux, affermano convintamente che la pronuncia giusta sia Jehovah (Geova)". [19] Henri Cazelles: "je vous remercie vivement de m'avoir envoyé votre 'ln Fame only?' d'une grande richesse de documentation. Je vais le déposer à la Bibliothèque Biblique pour le plus grand profit des chercheurs... Avec mes félicitations et remerciements." [20] Edward Lipinski (orientalist): "je tiens à vous remercier pour cet envoi et à vous féliciter pour le travail consciencieux dont cette recherche fait preuve. Je ne manquerai pas d'en faire usage si je reviens un jour à ce sujet." [21] Shelomo Morag: "the study is full of important evidence and gives a good survey of the research". [22] Mireille Hadas-Lebel "je suis impressionnée par le fait que le tétragramme écrit en hiéroglyphes se prononce Yehua... Votre étude est si dense et si riche qu'elle mériterait que je la relise de plus près". [23] "Je ne sais pas encore si je prononcerai Yehua mais vous avez de bons arguments et je garderai précieusement votre travail".[24] Marguerite Harl "votre envoi me remplit d'admiration... Encore une fois toutes mes félicitations".[25] Jacques Duquesne (journalist): "en matière de prononciation du tétragramme: je ne possède pas, sur ce sujet, une érudition comparable à la vôtre. Mais votre démonstration me paraît tout à fait convaincante et je suis très heureux d'en avoir pris connaissance".[26] Josy Eisenberg "je tiens à vous dire que je partage entièrement votre sentiment. Il y a eu trop d'erreurs couramment véhiculées à propos du Tétragramme".[27] Jean Bottéro "vous m'avez l'air à lafois très informé et très exigeant: vous vous en sortirez et nous ferez un beau travail, qui 'apprendra beaucoup de choses! ... Vous avez un beau sujet de travail: j'aimerais bien voir paraître et lire votre thèse. C'est peut-être vous qui résoudrez les énigmes". [28] E. J. Revell "I was very interested to read the copy of your work which you sent me. Before reading your study, had no particular opinion on the pronunciation of the name of God. As a student in the 50's, I was told that scholars have determined that 'Yahweh' was the ancient pronunciation. I did not find the argument well grounded, but the view was held almost as an article of faith by my instructors, and I had no superior argument, so I ignored the problem. I have occasionally thought about it since, but I have not acquired any information that you have not noticed in your study. You have certainly collected more information on the question than any other study I know, and you are to be congratulated on the production of a valuable work. Many thanks for sending it to me". [29] David C. Hopkins "Thank you for submitting your rich and detailed study. Your topic is fascinating".[30] Elizabeth Livingstone "I sent your kind letter and the copy of your thesis to one of my colleagues who gave me much guidance over Old Testament material in the third edition of the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (...), telling me that he found your thesis most interesting; he said your case was reasonable one, and well argued". [31] David Noel Freedman "I was pleased to hear from you and to have your detailed treatment of this valuable and interesting subject, on which I have written from time to time. I have never been entirely satisfied with my own analysis and interpretation of the divine name in the Hebrew Bible, or with that of others, including my own teacher, W.F. Albright and his teacher (from whom Albright derived his position), Paul Haupt. At the same time, I haven't seen anything to persuade me of the superior value of another interpretation, but I will be glad to learn from your study and perhaps discover that you have finally solved this long-standing puzzle". [32] Jean Delumeau: Tous mes remerciements, cher Monsieur, pour votre ouvrage à la fois savant et convaincant. [33] Jean-Claude Goyon: "J'ai relu avec attention votre contribution concernant le tétragramme et, aux petites remarques près, que je me suis permis de reporter sur vos feuillets aux endroits correspondants, il me semble que l'ensemble peut tenir la route, du moins aux yeux des égyptologues, seule catégorie, il est vrai, pour qui je puisse parler".[34][35] "The conventional transcription yhw3 was to be vocalized yehua according to this conventional system". [36] Pierre Grelot: Votre lettre me comble de confusion. Vous êtes un puits de science (...) Bref, vous m'instruisez vous, me faites réfléchir; mais votre vocalisation hypothétique du tétragramme me laisse sceptique.[37] Dan Jaffé: "Vos remarques sont fort suggestives et de surcroît, pertinentes.[38] Dominique de La Maisonneuve: "C'est avec intérêt que j'ai lu vos remarques érudites concernant le nom de YHWH dans notre ouvrage collectif : Qui est-Il ton Dieu ? Je souscris largement à tout ce que vous dites et qui témoigne d'une large documentation".[39] Takamitsu Muraoka: "I have found your thesis altogether a most interesting piece of work, despite some reservations I have indicated above".[40][41] Colette Sirat: J'ai lu votre travail avec beaucoup d'intérêt. Et votre thèse me paraît fort juste en général."[42][43] Guy Rachet: "Il n'en demeure pas moins que j'ai admiré l'érudition que vous maniez dans votre démonstration qui m'a certainement convaincu. Néanmoins, considéré le propos de mon livre, je suis contraint de continuer, dans les volumes à venir, d'utiliser la forme Yahweh, ce qui ne m'empêchera pas de suggérer la vraisemblable lecture que vous proposez, en citant pour le moins votre correspondance,[44] Jean Vernette: "Je vais, à l'aide de votre lettre, reprendre à nouveau au fond la question, votre intervention étant elle aussi, des plus informées. Et des + scientifiques. Vous savez sans doute que le thème du Nom divin Jéhovah, est un des plus passionnés et passionnants dans la controverse avec les Témoins. J'essaie, en tant que chercheur objectif, d'approcher au plus près la vérité. Merci de m'avoir écrit pour m'y aider".[45] After stating that the most likely pronunciation was Yahweh, Vernete softened his view and quoted Gertoux in: "Les Sectes" (2519). Les Sectes, Que sais-je?. Paris: Presses Universitaires de France: 42. 2002. Alfred Kuen: "Personnellement, je n'aime d'ailleurs pas ce nom de Yahvé (qui sonne comme le nom d'un dieu étranger), mais son usage s'est tellement répandu -- par erreur, comme vous le dites -- qu'il est difficile d'y échapper. La réticence à utiliser le nom de Jéhovah provient sans doute, comme vous le dites, de la peur d'être confondu avec les Témoins de Jéhovah".[46] "The reply of Jean Margain, is the best answer that can be given. There is, therefore, no conspiracy and, for me, everyone is free to utter the tetragrammaton as he sees fit, since academics have no elements to clarify their reading. Yours sincerely". [47] Jean Margain: "I cannot tell you that your conclusions are false. Everything connected with the designation of a divinity is not merely logical. Your work is to be placed on the subject of this delicate question in which beliefs of a religious or emotional nature, taboos, pagan influences and superstitious practices are mingled with the belief. I congratulate you for having carried out such an inquiry and I wish you to continue your research successfully [...] .[48] [49] Jean Leclant: "It is very difficult to answer your question and it is best to stick to the conventional transcription system (yhw3)". [50][51] Emanuel Tov and Nehemia Gordon,[52] Philippe Cassuto,[53] André Caquot,[54] Bernard Barc,[55] Thomas Römer,[56][57], Dominique Barthélemy,[58] Étienne Nodet,[59], Ziony Zevit,[60] Florence Malbran-Labat,[61][62], Christian Amphoux,[63], Claude Tresmontant,[64] Société Biblique de Genève,[65] Pavlos D. Vasileiadis: "For an overview of the longstanding efforts to render the Tetragrammaton in Greek, see Vasileiadis (2013) and Gertoux (2002, pp. 125-136)". [66] Thomas D. Ross says that Gertoux's work "defend the traditional translation of the Tetragrammaton".[67] Ren Manetti follows G. Gertoux on the idea that he "postulated that the perpetual qere was not for Adonai, but for Shema", and considers that some have recently pointed out "a number of problems with Gesenius's theory.[68] Hermann Hunger: "Gertoux "offers new conclusions or refutes chronologies proposed by other scholars".[69] Claude Obsomer: "d'après une communication de Gérard Gertroux, que je remercie". [70] D. A. Snyder: "the reason I give such high regard for the Gertoux timeline is the highly documented research that he uses in his ancient chronological system of study. His work equates the Hebrews with the Hyksos with some certainty.[71] Ola Wikander: "A recent publication supporting the identification with Tudh-(ula (which ultimately goes back to T. G. Pinches in 1897) is Gérard Gertoux, Abraham and Chedorlaomer: Chronological, Historical and Archaeological Evidence (sineloco,2015), 34 (etpassim). One may note with some interest that Sayce actually suggests identifying Tudh-(aliya with the Tudh-(ula of the Spartoli tablet sin his early comment (or Tudghula, as he writes the latter), and indeed uses that purported identification as a step in arguing the connection between the Hittite name and Genesis 14!". [72] Jozef Hudec and Miroslav Cerný: "The 7th day of the 3rd month of inundation (LICHTHEIM, M. Ancient Egyptian Literature. Vol. I: The Old and Middle Kingdoms, p. 223) would have been in November during the rule of Amenemhet I/Senwosret I. (GERTOUX, G. Absolute Chronology of the Ancient World from 2840 BCE to 1533 BCE, p. 39)". [73] Giuseppe Veneziano: 1 BCE "is supported, inter alia, by W. E. Filmer (Filmer 1966), A. E. Steinmann (Steinmann 2009), and by Gerard Gertoux (Gertoux s.d.)", and he adds that "however, Josephus himself, although very precise in describing the events, is a little less precise in their chronological framework and - as G. Gertoux (Gertoux 2010) recalls - provides us with at least a dozen information that contribute to making it inadequate or doubtful this date [...] this and other anachronisms, widely discussed by Gertoux and by Steinmann in their writings (complete with schematics), would seem to demonstrate how the date of 1 BC it is more coherent than that which places Herod's death in 4 BC. However, without preconceptions, we now evaluate both hypotheses also from an astronomical and biblical point of view". [74] The Armstrong Institute of Biblical Archaeology: "as for the overall historicity of the book--despite widespread dismissal from skeptics--there is likewise a remarkable body of evidence for it, including the historical identity of Queen Esther herself. For more on this, read a thorough investigation by Gerard Gertoux". [75][76] Albertus Pretorius is of the opinion that "Gertoux compiled a credible chronology of the life of Jesus".[77] Paul Finch: Gertoux's "research completely dovetails with the conclusion of the present author had already determined. Indeed, he has presented an excellent testimony from other notable ancient historians that Carthage was founded in 870 BC". [78] First fact check: "An amazing French scholar named Gérard Gertoux has made remarkable inroads into establishing the historicity of the Bible". [79] Tony O'Connell: "Gérard Gertoux is a French academic who is best known for his book The name of God Y.eH.oW.aH. However, most of his prodigious output is concerned with ancient chronology". [80] Kenneth C. Griffith and Darrell K. White: "Academia discounts ancient historical records in favor of contemporary inscriptions and seems to intentionally discount Scripture. Summarized by Gertoux (2022b, 2)". [81]; "Of the three, we consider Goodenow's solution to be most plausible, and Gertoux's chronology of the Kings of Aram to be the most accurate". [82] Nicholas P. Lunn: "See. e.g. Gerard Gertoux's convincing presentation". [83] Paul Bernard: "Gérard Gertoux de l'Université de Lyon 2, dresse la liste des six recensements effectués de -28 à +14, dont trois « avec lustration », ceux de -28, -8 et +14, qui ne concernaient que les citoyens romains, et trois autres en -23, -12 e +9, qui n'etaient que des recensements provinciaux [...] Finalement, et pour surprenante qu'elle soit, la date de l'an -12 pour la naissance de Jésus est la seule que soit coérente avec l'esemble des dennées". [84] Influence is seen in the academy, and there are more scholarly opinions, which together, probably disprove that it is a matter of imposing a point of view of a particular denomination.--Jairon Levid Abimael Caál Orozco (talk) 15:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Jairon Levid Abimael Caál Orozco This has no relevance to the biography. Please do not add irrelevant material to article talk pages. º¦ Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me º¦ 15:08, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok. I just tried to respond to the discussion on the COATRACK presumption, but maybe I didn't focus my response well. Thanks for the advice. Jairon Levid Abimael Caál Orozco (talk) 15:27, 29 October 2024 (UTC)