Talk:Persecution of Kashmiri Shias

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Sources

This article is supported by secondary scholarship that is cited in reference list.

• 1. Zaheen, "Shi'ism in Kashmir, 1477–1885", International Research Journal of Social Sciences, Vol. 4(4), 74–80, April (2015).
• 2. Prof. Saiyid Athar Abbas Rizvi, "A Socio-Intellectual History of Isna Ashari Shi'is in India", Vol. 1 (pp. 168–178), Vol. 2 (p. 37) Mar'ifat Publishing House, Canberra (1986).
• 3. Christopher Snedden, "Understanding Kashmir and Kashmiris", Oxford University Press, p. 29, (2015).
• 4. Ildikó Bellér-Hann (2007). Situating the Uyghurs between China and Central Asia. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. p. 20-21. ISBN 978-0-7546-7041-4.
• 5. Bellér-Hann, Ildikó (2008). Community Matters in Xinjiang, 1880-1949: Towards a Historical Anthropology of the Uyghur. BRILL. p. 137.
• 6. Charles Ellison Bates, "A Gazetteer of Kashmir," p. 31-32, Calcutta, (1872-73).
• 7. J. N. Hollister, "The Shi'a of India", p. 148-149, Luzac and Co, London, (1953).
• 8. Jadunath Sarkar, "History of Aurangzib", vol. 5, pp. 323-325, Orient Longman Ltd, Delhi (1952).
• 9. Andreas Rieck, "The Shias of Pakistan", p. 3 & 16, Oxford University Press, (2016).
• 10. P. N. K. Bamzai, "Cultural and Political History of Kashmir", Vol. 2 & 3, M. D. Publications, New Delhi (1994).
• 11. Jadunath Sarkar, "Fall of the Mughal Empire", Vol. 1, p. 303, Orient Longman Ltd, Delhi (1964).

Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 01:56, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

@Dr. Hamza Ebrahim:, please note the following:

• International Research Journal of Social Sciences references is removed and substituted with {{citation needed}} as it is a WP:PREDATORY source. Please do not add them back.
• Please do not remove the maintenance tags. They are provided for letting readers to know the shortcomings in the article, where editors including you can improve upon. It should not pose any threat to the article, and would be removed in the course of time as the article improves.— Amkgp 💬 15:10, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Recent incidents included as per WP:NEWSORG

In the post 9/11 scenario, sectarian terrorism has resurfaced in Kashmir. Here are some of the recent incidents of brutality:

• December 28, 2009: Suicide bombing on Shia gathering in Muzaffarabad leaves 7 dead, 65 injured.
• February 15, 2017: Assasination attempt on Shia cleric and his wife in Muzaffarabad.

Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 17:21, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

The second source mention that the motive (sectarian/personal) is not yet known. The first does not mention anything about sectarian violence. WP:SYNTH TrangaBellam (talk) 17:56, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

It wasn't immediately known whether the motive wasn't sectarian either :). Police can only confirm after the assasins have been caught and prosecuted. Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 18:05, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Hard to assume that you are editing in good faith. I will ask some admin to take a look. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:16, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

You seem to be unfamiliar with the topic. If you need to read on suicide bombings, here is a scholarly article: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09546553.2018.1472585 It's title is: Sunni Suicide Attacks and Sectarian Violence. I hope it helps you understand the whole picture.Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 18:28, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Please stop removing well sourced content just because you don't like it. If you want to add something relevant to the topic, you are welcome. If you didn't know, you can use WP:DRN to get comments from other people too. Wikipedia is a place where you may have to accept bitter facts. It is a secular platform. Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 18:51, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Kautilya3 You have already edited this article (and commented on WT:INB, before me). So, can you please stop this abuse of sources (and WP:SYNTH) to say stuff that the sources do not state. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:24, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Title

Dear Santosh L & Amkgp!. Initially the title was "Destruction of Kashmiri Shias", some other editor changed it to the present title. "Destruction of Kashmiri Shias" is translation of the term "Taraaj-e-Shia" that is used for these events in history books. I think we should use it as it is more precise and it has a history. Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 11:18, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Dr. Hamza Ebrahim, If you want to change the title, wait until the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Genocide of Kashmiri Shias is closed after complete discussion. — Amkgp 💬 11:22, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Moved to "Destruction of Kashmiri Shias".

Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 10:27, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Copy Paste Issue

Dear Amkgp, this article predates https://lubpak.net/archives/357655. Check https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Genocide_of_Kashmiri_Shias&action=info Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 11:49, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, removed tag. — Amkgp 💬 11:51, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

mughal deceit is written too lightly in the background

In 1586 CE, Kashmir was merged with the Mughal Empire. Mughals appointed talented officers and contributed greatly to the cultural and economic life of Kashmir.

Kashmiri kings fought 3 wars with mughals which they won. Then suddenly mughals came, https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/History_of_Kashmir#Mughals_(1580s%E2%80%931750s) and "in 1589 CE. Akbar conquered Kashmir by deceit.

This is interesting because yousuf chak was a shia and the general shia population was the same, around 5%. This means just by numbers alone, one can assume only 5% of army was shia. This implies when the wars were first won against mughals, both shia and sunni (95%) were united and the wars won were a result of this cooperation. Then how come suddenly you turn from buddies to arch enemies which the mughals were quick to take advantage of? The general consensus is that mughals, seeing their defeat multiple times ended up sending saboteurs to the valley who raised the shia-sunni infighting.

I find the tone of this article really troubling. There is no doubt harsh injustices were done against the minority shia, i am not contesting facts but simply saying shia-sunni divide is because sunnis consider them heretics and are out for their blood is simply not true. Time and again external factors have fanned the flames for their personal gain and while the masses might go with the flow and do untold bad things, the base intention needs to be analyzed as well. Mhveinvp (talk) 09:26, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Can you cite a source to support your claim of Shias being 5% of the population in sixteenth century? Mirza Haider Dughlat has been cited to say that he has forced many to become good Sunnis, after asking Sunni scholars about their beliefs. History has mentioned Sunni religious leaders instigating these pogroms. Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 21:25, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Mhveinvp, please use the standard practices of quoting to make clear what you are saying, and what you are reproducing from elsewhere. And, do not cite Wikipedia. It is not a reliable source. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:48, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Genocide

I believe genocide is absolutely wrong term. Provide source that claims so. How to retitle this article? TrangaBellam (talk) 10:18, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Sources

• The lead is cited to Rieck's recent volume (pg. 3). But he says nothing about genocide or campaign of terror or the precise numbers. He mentions that Shia Shunni conflicts erupted for the first time during between 1528-1586 (Chaks) and have occurred frequently under Mughals/Afghans/Sikha/Dogras.

• The other cite to Rieck (pg 16) does not claim that Ahmed Barelvi and his followers were attacking taziya's in Kashmir or that his actions led to some retaliatory violence in Kashmir. WP:SYNTH.

• Raj-era sources are not AT ALL reliable per HISTRS. Especially in these areas. Read Manan Ahmed Asif's latest book.

• Please see the prohibition on using Raj-era sources in Wikipedia, as noted by administrators @Bishonen and @Kautilya3.

• Which of the two sources link to the slave-trade in the Kashgar region to whatever genocide/persecution/violence/strife happened in Kashmir (which is our subject)?

• This 'taraaj' seems to be part of a continued tradition of persecution. is unsourced. WP:SYNTH.

• Bamzai is borderline unreliable to be used as the main source for anything. See review 1, review 2. Even then, where he sees conflicts as fitting into a pattern of 11 expulsions/genocides/....?
• Mridu Rai mentions of a (probably) economically motivated conflict and a casual remark that like conflicts were frequent since introduction of Shiism. No numbering or mention of one-sided-violence or genocide.
• Overall, it appears that you have (1) gathered details of any and all Shia-Shunni conflicts in Kashmir history (2) ripped apart their immediate sociopolitical contexts, (3) wiped out Shunni victims and Shia perpetrators, and (4) then enumerate them chronologically to render this article. TrangaBellam (talk) 11:05, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

• 1. There is a discussion going on in the talk page about the title. Please have a look and contribute there.
• 2. Andreas Rieck says: "Shia-Sunni conflicts erupted in Kashmir during those years (he is referring to 1528 - 1586 discussed in p.2), and have occured frequently under the mughals (1586 - 1752), the Afghans (1752 - 1819), the Sikhs (1819 - 45) and the Hindu Dogra dynasty (1846 - 1947) too." This is something that has a pattern and hasn't happened in the rest of the subcontinent. For your own satisfaction, check primary sources in Zaheen's paper, Shiism in Kashmir and also the chapter "Taraaj-e-Shia" in Tarikh-i-Hasan, Vol. 1.
• As far as the impact of these pogroms is concerned, Andreas Rieck says: "only a few percent of Kashmiris have remained Shias."
• 3. Syed Ahmed was killed while seeking refuge in Kashmir from Balakot. As a head of a the first islamist state in the region and leader of orthodox reform movements, he needs to be mentioned.
• 4. On wikipedia, we need to assume good faith WP:AGF,especially when many scholarly sources are cited. You may disagree with a scholar, but then you need to cite another scholar to question that specific part of his work (e.g. you can't question authenticity of vol 2 based on a comment on vol 1.). Also read WP:RGW. Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 21:54, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

• Zaheen is not a reliable source. It is a predatory journal. As mentioned up above.
• Tarikh-I-Hasan and other primary sources cannot be used in any manner without secondary scholarship covering them. WP:HISTRS.
• You are the one finding a pattern and uniqueness, Rieck hasn't. WP:SYNTH. I do note Kautilya3 has inserted a failed-verification superscript.
• Not sure about your comments on Vol1/Vol2.
• The entire article is a work of WP:SYNTH and none of the cited sources do mention of anything more than Shia-Sunni conflicts in Kashmir. Who has numbered these conflicts?

• Who links Ahmed Beralvi's actions with these sectarian strifes in Kashmir?

• RGW is good but that applies to you. TrangaBellam (talk) 04:16, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

• The introduction has been changed to:
  Incidents of sectarian violence occured in Kashmir under the rule of the mughals (1586 - 1752), the Afghans (1752 - 1819), the Sikhs (1819 - 45) and the Hindu Dogras (1846 - 1947), most of the times carried out by Sunni clergy and fanatic mobs of the area and abroad.
  Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 17:47, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
• You are welcome to read scholarly articles and books and improve the article. Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 18:11, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

• I will ask for removing the article since this is a WP:SYNTH violation, as it stands. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:50, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

• Thank you for your time. This is how Wikipedia goes on. Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 11:45, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Should Genocide of Kashmiri Shias (article title since changed) be merged into Kashmiri Muslims or moved to some other title?TrangaBellam (talk) 15:03, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support a merge on account of the sourcing analysis in preceding section, this article, as it stands, is a massive violation of WP:SYNTH and WP:HISTRS. Also see Kautilya3's points, below. TrangaBellam (talk) 20:53, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't agree with this proposal. It isn't about a general introduction of Kashmiri Muslim community, but about persecution of a minority Muslim community from the majority/ruling community. Have a look at a similar article: Exodus of Kashmiri Hindus. -- Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 16:27, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
• Move this page to Kashmiri Shias or better Shia Islam in Kashmir. Unless there is a reliable secondary source that states the main thesis of this page, "destruction", "persecution" or whatever, we can't make up a topic like this by ourselves. All that we can see in the RS is that there was sectarian conflict. And in the end there are very few Shias left. But, from that, we can't construct the theory that Shi'ism has been "destroyed". Religions depend on the state patronage to a large extent. If the state patronage didn't exist, religion would have gotten weakened and gradually eroded. Making up story of "destruction" is extreme case of WP:SYNTHESIS.

I am not in favour of merging it into Islam in Kashmir or Kashmiri Muslims, because those pages are themselves problematic, and adding another huge problematic section to them won't help matters. On the other hand, there is a probably enough material to write about the history of Shia Ialsm in Kashmir, some of which could indeed cover instances of persecution. So I favour keeping this an independent page, and removing the SYNTHESIS. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:08, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I have noted this at Talk:Islam_in_Kashmir#Kashmiri Muslims days before. Merge all these pages to a common page?

Also, your opinion will be helpful at Talk:Destruction_of_Kashmiri_Shias#Sources. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:27, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't agree with merger proposal, as in my view there is enough material on persecution of Shias of Kashmir that it needs to be presented under a distinct title. The new title can be discussed in under https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Destruction_of_Kashmiri_Shias#Title --Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 14:41, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Dear TrangaBellam, please don't remove [[1]] my comments. We need to act civil. --- Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 18:00, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

You have ALREADY voted ONCE. Your views are known. Please indent properly. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:12, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose (changing my vote from "Move" to "Oppose" since the topic at hand is the proposed merger. The history of Shia-Sunni conflict is notable enough that it already has an article in three other wikis. (This article seems very close to ur-wiki's.) It needs to move to an NPOV title; for example Kautilya3's suggested Shia Islam in Kashmir. An RfC would get wider input. HouseOfChange (talk) 19:52, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

• We are measuring notability by how many articles are there in other wikis? Or is ur-wiki a reliable source, now? Those are new standards, certainly. I have nothing against a move (can change merge proposal to a move) but alongside that, most of the material over here needs to be deleted as SYNTH violations (as K3 notes). TrangaBellam (talk) 20:22, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
• Also, your opinion will be helpful at Talk:Destruction_of_Kashmiri_Shias#Sources. TrangaBellam (talk) 20:24, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

• I would suggest another title: Persecution of Kashmiri Shias. The topic, Shia Islam in Kashmir deserves a separate article with more details on introduction of Shia faith, their holy cites, their culture, notable personalities, etc. Just like Exodus of Kashmiri Hindus and Kashmiri Pandit. There are many examples where persecution of a minority community is discussed separately in more detail. Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 20:32, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose It already went through AfD and enough sources have been provided since. I will be adding more sources soon. Zakaria ښه راغلاست (talk) 04:33, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

• I and Kautilya3 have already analyzed available sources. The AfD was withdrawn and does not matter. TrangaBellam (talk) 11:22, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
• The quality of this article has already been improved a lot, since the discussion started. More improvements shall come as time passes. Many scholarly sources have been cited within the past few days. Norman Hollister says, "These sketches depicting the penetration of Shi'ism into Kashmir have shown much of conflict and strife, as well as much of missionary effort through five hundred years." (The Shia of India, p. 150, London (1953)). Andreas Rieck, after mentioning the repeated violent attacks says: "only a few percent of Kashmiris have remained Shias." ("The Shias of Pakistan", p. 3, Oxford (2016)). The historical process of violent attacks and coercive conversion/cleansing followed by shrinking of a community constitutes destruction. It deserves a distinct and detailed page, just like Persecution of Muslims in Myanmar and Islam in Myanmar. ---- Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 00:12, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Whether or not a merge is decided upon, a move appears to be appropriate. --NoonIcarus (talk) 10:52, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose A notable topic needs to have an article of it's own. LearnIndology (talk) 16:30, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

PS The article should be renamed to Persecution of Kashmiri Shias. The word Destruction makes no sense. LearnIndology (talk) 16:02, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

So far 4 oppose, 2 move, 1 support.

Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 14:38, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Dr. Hamza Ebrahim; please don't count votes consensus building comments numerically as per WP:VOTE, specifically WP:NOTVOTE. DTM (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

 Per RM close, the title of this article is Persecution of Kashmiri Shias. Pending revisions to article to deal with POV issues merge issues are moot and merge notices removed. Mike Cline (talk) 15:10, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Missionary WikiWarrior Alert

When persecution of a minority community is discussed, some people who identify themselves with the perpetrators want it removed from Wikipedia. If failed, they would try to merge it and somehow hide it. They usually pass judgements without mentioning scholarly sources to support their claims. Their favourite tool is to misinterpret wikipedia rules. Check: WP:WIKILAWYER. In this case it can be Sunni zealots who may want to remove this article or merge it to some other. This behavior isn't welcome on Wikipedia. Check: WP:GWAR. -- Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 16:59, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

 Administrator note: Dr. Ebrahim, that isn't an appropriate comment, especially for an article talk page. Please watch for WP:ASPERSIONS. There are venues, like WP:AE or WP:ANI, where proper complaints can be submitted to be reviewed (and if deemed so, acted upon) by uninvolved admins. But this is not the way. This article talk page is not for that. If you do choose to go through the route of a formal complaint, please ensure that you have proof (i.e. evidence in the form of diffs), otherwise, it will simply count as another aspersion. Thanks and g'luck. El_C 18:23, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. Please have a look at the article and discussion in the talk page. Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 18:39, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Look, Dr. Ebrahim, respectfully, you are going to need to do better on that front, since it has been pointed out to me (here) that these are reoccurring problem. So, I do expect you to provide assurances (expressly so) that you will cease from such inappropriate practices in the future. If you are finding it challenging to engage this topic area dispassionately, for whatever reason, perhaps edit elsewhere...? Sorry, I am unable to commit to undertaking a close investigation of the article and related discussion at this time. Many thanks again. El_C 18:47, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your time. Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 19:20, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Dr. Ebrahim, that is not an assurance of any kind. Please note that this page falls under WP:ACDS and that further terse and evasive responses may be a cause for sanctions. El_C 19:32, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

I will try to be polite in future. In case I think there is a misconduct, I will go to the forums you told me about. Thanks again. Dr. Hamza Ebrahim (talk) 20:39, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 1 February 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Persecution of Kashmiri Shias based solely on WP:NPOV and similar article titles as suggested in the discussion. I would encourage interested editors to adapt this title by adjusting text accordingly and avoid POV language. Mike Cline (talk) 14:57, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

---

Destruction of Kashmiri Shias → Shia Islam in Kashmir – The article title seems a bit odd and the name seems to be an attribute of WP:SYNTH. _{دَستخَط،} اِفلاق ^{(کَتھ باتھ)} 13:06, 1 February 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Colin M (talk) 19:56, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support - Indeed the current title is an exceedingly WP:POV one. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:31, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. This article does not simply focus on the entire history of Shia Islam in Kashmir, but specifically upon the maltreatment suffered by Kashmiri Shias. I would however support Destruction of Kashmiri Shias → Persecution of Kashmiri Shias / Persecution of Shia in Kashmir or similar main title header, as has already been proposed by other contributors in above discussions. The form "Persecution of..." is a familiar one in Wikipedia headers, with such existing titles as Persecution of Baháʼís, Persecution of Buddhists, Persecution of Christians, Persecution of Hindus, Persecution of Jews, Persecution of Muslims, etc. as well as the more specific form "Persecution of... in...", such as Persecution of Bahá'ís in Iran, Persecution of Buddhists in Malaysia, Persecution of Christians in North Korea, Persecution of Hindus in Myanmar, Persecution of Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union, etc. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:41, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

But the lead doesn't establish the fact of "persecution". It only talks about sectarian conflict. -- Kautilya3 (talk)

• Oppose Rename it to Persecution of Kashmiri Shias. This article focus only on persecution of Kashmiri Shias, not history of "Shia Islam in Kashmir", but the later is definitely a notable topic that deserves an article of it's own. LearnIndology (talk) 07:01, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support I stand by my comments at this thread and the article, as it stands, violates multiple policies. Those violations stay irrespective of the article title. TrangaBellam (talk) 10:22, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.