Talk:Gata (food)

Armenian users should stop removing information about Gata in other countries.

Direct quote from one of the sources added before me by Armenian users (Great Russian encyclopedia):

"in the most complete range are produced in Iran, Afghanistan and Turkey. To a lesser extent, they are common in the Arab East - in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, where dried fruits (eg, dates, figs) are consumed more. In Europe, V. with. are made in Bosnia, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece, Romania. V. s. common in Transcaucasia (especially in Armenia and Azerbaijan) and West Asia (mainly in Tajikistan)."

Adding source citing about Gata being spread in other countries, but then removing information about every country except Armenia is unreasonable. Piskov123 (talk) 16:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

You're not allowed to edit in this area, see your talk page. And whatever you add, removing other sources without reason, and editing content while removing its cited source is a major editing problem, so I reverted you. Last but not least, tertiary sources (such as encyclopedias) are generally not preferred per wiki policies, especially the likes of the successor of the Great Soviet encyclopedia. The general idea is to not use them for specific claims if there are secondary sources. But you shouldn't be editing this topic area regardless, again see your talk page as to why. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 13:13, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Great Russian Encyclopedia were cited as source before my first edit on this page. I added information based on existing source. And if you're reverting my edits, then start from my first edit on this article (12 february 2023), to the point when this page didn't even have images in it.

So, if i'm not yet allowed to edit this article, it would be kind of you if you did that for me and added proper information about spreading of Gata in countries other than Republic of Armenia. Thank you. Piskov123 (talk) 13:18, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Cultural Origin and Representation of Gata

I am writing to address recent edits made to the "Gata" article, which now presents this pastry as exclusively Armenian in origin. While Gata may have strong associations with Armenian cuisine, it is important to recognize and acknowledge the shared culinary heritage in the region.

Cuisines, much like cultures, are often a blend of influences and shared traditions. Many foods, including Gata, Lahmacun, and Sucuk, transcend national boundaries and are enjoyed in various forms across neighboring cultures. It is crucial that our article reflects this diversity and interconnectedness.

I propose that we revisit these recent edits with a focus on inclusivity and factual accuracy. Let us collaborate to ensure the article:

Reflects Multiple Perspectives: The article should acknowledge the different variations of Gata found in neighboring countries and cultures. This can be achieved by citing reliable sources that discuss these variations.

Maintains Neutral Language: We should avoid language that exclusively attributes Gata to a single nation or culture. Instead, we can describe its presence and significance in various regions.

Cites Reliable Sources: Any claims about the origin or cultural significance of Gata should be supported by credible and verifiable sources. This includes academic publications, reputable culinary historians, and recognized food experts.

Encourages Cultural Appreciation: Instead of focusing on divisive narratives, let's highlight how Gata, as a food item, serves as a bridge between cultures, showcasing a shared heritage that deserves celebration.

I believe that by approaching the article with a spirit of cooperation and mutual respect, we can create content that is not only informative but also respectful of the rich, diverse culinary traditions in the region. For an example please see Arepa. Göycen (talk) 21:36, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Why should it be removed

@Song623 please explain why you think the part where it mentions how the food is popular in Azerbaijan should be removed Viceskeeni2 (talk) 19:13, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Gata as an Armenian pastry

Recent disruptive editing on a page postulate that it is an Azerbaijani speciality, but extensive sources say that it is of distinct Armenian origin.

Athoremmes (talk) 19:14, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

No where does it say it is an Azerbaijani pastry only, unlike what you two want to do and remove the factt that it is popular in Azerbaijan too and has a big part in its cuisine, but rather that Azerbaijan also has its own versions of the dish. Please don't spread fake news Viceskeeni2 (talk) 19:19, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Back up your claims by neutral sources. Right now you use only websites sourced from Azerbaijan. Khinkali is super popular in Armenia too, Armenia even has its own variation of Khinkali, yet the origin of the dish is clearly Georgian. Athoremmes (talk) 19:22, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Nowhere does the article state that it is an Azerbaijani speciality but rather thats it's a very popular food inj Azerbaijan and has its own versions of it Viceskeeni2 (talk) 19:23, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

There are 19 sources in the article (11, 12 and 13 are the same ones), 7 of them are Azerbaijani and 5 Armenian. The 3d source never mentions that the dish is only Armenian or of Armenian origin, but only that Armenians bake it. And there is no real way to see what Holly Windle's book says as I couldn't find any pdf of it. From that point, only TWO neutral souce mentions the dish being Armenian, that source of nr 11, 12 and 13 + the Australian one, which isn't really a reliable source. Viceskeeni2 (talk) 19:32, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

So there is NO relaible and neutral source that mentions nor proves the dish being of Armenian origin. However I still added that it's of Armenian origin until we'll reach consensus whether it is of Armenian origin or not Viceskeeni2 (talk) 19:37, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

No, you edited the consensus to add Azerbaijan before establishing the consensus on your opinion. I can't go on the page of Ponchik, state that it is also of Armenian origin, since we eat it here too, and state that hereby it is a neutral version. Athoremmes (talk) 19:40, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Again I never said it's of Azerbaijani origin, look at the article I stated that it is of Armenian origin even though nothing has proven it yet. Also, there wassn't any disvcussion whether or not Azerbaijan belongs into the article before until now, meaning that the way the article was before all of this started should stay until the discussion is finished. Viceskeeni2 (talk) 19:42, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

You did, anybody can check through the history.

No, there was, it is discussed by Piskov. Athoremmes (talk) 19:55, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Okay if I did then tell me where, state the sentence Viceskeeni2 (talk) 19:57, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Third party sources are very reliable. Armenia and Azerbaijan are engaged in an active conflict, therefore, their sources will be biased, which is why we should generally avoid to use them directly. And Holly Windle book is pretty much available on online libraries. Athoremmes (talk) 19:37, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Can you send me a link to Holly Windles pdf and yes Third party sources are reliable if we speak about it not being biased, however two random recipe articles are not really reliable historical sources Viceskeeni2 (talk) 19:39, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Well, the link is there, literally, in the article. Athoremmes (talk) 19:46, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Alright I saw it, so based on this now:

- 7 Azerbaijani sources

- 5 Armenian sources

- 5 neutral sources, from which 3 state that it's Armenian

and as I said: NO SOURCE DENIES ITS POPULARITY IN AZERBAIJAN and NOWHERE did I say that the food originates from Azerbaijan. If you have a problem with the article stating the FACT that Azerbaijan has its own versions of it, then that's a nationalism problem. Viceskeeni2 (talk) 19:51, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

and like I already said, I have no problem with keeping the fact that it's of Armenian origin. However I do have a problem with denying the fact that it has popularity in Azerbaijan and is also a part of the Azerbaijani cuisine. It's not of Azerbaijani origin but however this dish, that is not of Azerbaijani origin, is still popular in Azerbaijan, even though it's not of Azerbaijani origin (which I've stated everywhere by now) Viceskeeni2 (talk) 19:54, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Again, Ponchiki are very popular in Armenia. Should we state in Ponchiki article that it is also an Armenian speciality? And define popularity. Borsht is super popular in Armenia too, yet it doesn't become Armenian because of that Athoremmes (talk) 19:57, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Does Armenia have a special version of Borshch and Ponchiki, where it is a big part of their cuisine? NO. Does Azerbaijan do that with Gata? YES. (Doesnt mean its of Azerbaijani origin) Viceskeeni2 (talk) 19:58, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Every country has a special version of a dish due to the specific nature of ingridients in the region. Canadians invented Hawaiian Pizza, for example, yet that doesnt mean that "Pizza" article should note that it is also of Canadian origin. Athoremmes (talk) 20:09, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Pizza isn't comparable to Gata in God knows how many numbers. The article of Pizza hawaii mentions it being Canadian. Gata is of Armenian origin however it's embedded also into Azerbaijani culture and an import aspect of it. Viceskeeni2 (talk) 20:12, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

It absolutely is. Both are food staples.

It is, but the page of "Pizza" doesn't contain "Canada" or "Brasil" despite both countries having the variations of word Pizza. Athoremmes (talk) 20:14, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

You and I both know Pizza and Gata aren't comparable, Pizza is internationally known everywhere and has so many different versions of it you can't count. No one outside the Caucasus or former USSR however will be able to tell you what Gata/Kyata even is. Viceskeeni2 (talk) 20:17, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

No, why they are not? Gata is internationally well known as well. It is eaten in Russia, Turkey, France and other countries too.

And almost nobody would be able to tell what Gata is in Caucasus too, since only Azerbaijan and +- Southern Georgia know what Gata is. However, Gata is also popular in Van, Erzurum, Sassoun, Kharberd and among Assyrians, far away from Azerbaijan, but always near the Caucasian highlands. Athoremmes (talk) 20:24, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Yes Gata is internationally known AMONG THE DIASPORAS not as a popular street food/basic food that gets a new version like every two days like Pizza does. If you ask a guy in Mexico and Thailand they'll both know what Pizza is, however it'd be hard asking a guy from Syria and one from Chechnya (obv not Armenians/Azerbaijanis) what Gata is Viceskeeni2 (talk) 20:26, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Just like Pizza became well known due to the Italian diaspora in the US and Canada. Then it became well known all over the world by proxy. Anyways, we won't mention all those countries for Pizza, why should we for Azerbaijan? Athoremmes (talk) 20:30, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Like I said, again: Pizza isn't a part of Canadian traditional cuisine, Gata is of Azerbaijani cuisine. And Gata and Pizza aren't comparable, Gata is only known amonsg the diasporas, Pizza is known internationally amongst almost every ethnic group and country Viceskeeni2 (talk) 20:31, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Also, Pizza isn't embedded in Canadian or Brazilian food or cuisine. It's just a food some Canadian came up with, which is also why its Wikipedia page only mentions place of origin as Canada but doesn't associate the cuisine with it. Gata/Kyata on the other hand however is a way different story, as it's very similar to many other Azerbaijani dishes (Pakhlava, Shekerbura, Goghal etc.) and the different versions aren't just some random versions an Azerbaijani came up with, but have been consumed in Azerbaijan since hundreds of years and embedded into its cuisine. Viceskeeni2 (talk) 20:23, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

It is. Pizza is super popular in Brasil and the brasilian varieties of pizza are widely known among the world. In fact, there is a wikipedia article about the Pizza in Brasil. Also, yes, thanks for noting, Baklava article also doesn't contain Azerbaijan, despite Azeri varieties, and mentions only Ottoman Empire. Athoremmes (talk) 20:28, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Pizza is super popular doesn't equal it being a part of their cuisine. And the reason Baklava doesnt is because, again: Baklava is an internationally spread food spread among the whole South of Europe, North Africa, Middle East, Caucasus etc. Gata/Kyata is not, thats only popular in the Caucasus and among their diasporas, no other cuisine Viceskeeni2 (talk) 20:30, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Additionally, sources from Viceskeeni2 are from the biased sources such as AzeriFood, travelinbaku.com and Flavors on Baku, which are centered on Azerbaijan and made by Azerbaijanis, hence, are biased towards Azeri worldview. Moreover, user also fails to back up the claim that the staple in eaten in Iranian Azerbaijan.

Furthermore, we also have a special article for the Gata as a turkic speciality, namely Kete. Athoremmes (talk) 19:20, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Kete and Gata are two different dishes, also since when is it biased to say that Azerbaijan has its own versions of the dish? It's a clear fact, tha twas already in the article with the picturee of the Nowruz khoncha, and adding the fact that it's popular in Azerbaijan too won't do anything. If you want to, I can clearly add that it is of Armenian origin Viceskeeni2 (talk) 19:22, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Kete is a variation of Kyata. No, they are not really different. You didn't just add that it's popular in Azerbaijan, you directly stated that it originated from Azerbaijan. Athoremmes (talk) 19:29, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Tell me where I said that it originates from Azerbaijan, if I did then my mistake I can remove that part Viceskeeni2 (talk) 19:34, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

You edited it directly like that before re-editing it recently Athoremmes (talk) 19:46, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Okay, then look at the history and tell me where the page stated that the dish originates from Azerbaijan (not Caucasus, AZERBAIJAN) Viceskeeni2 (talk) 19:47, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

In general, I've found the following sources, which are not affliated with either Armenia or Azerbaijan.

Which directly state that it is Armenian:

https://www.seriouseats.com/gata-5185123

https://www.fondazioneslowfood.com/en/ark-of-taste-slow-food/gata/ (Funded from EU)

https://rus-pohlebkin-enc.slovaronline.com/868-%D0%9A%D0%AF%D0%A2%D0%90 - Pohlebkin food encyclopaedia Athoremmes (talk) 19:54, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Here are sources mentioning that it is popular in Azerbaijan SO MUCH THAT IT'S A PART OF THE CUISINE:

https://steemit.com/food/@singa/baku-kyata

https://www.frisaga.com/destination/cuisine/zagatala-azerbaijan

https://www.chefspencil.com/most-popular-desserts-in-azerbaijan/

https://gotovim-doma.ru/recipe/9962-azerbaydzhanskaya-kyata

https://dzen.ru/a/ZFCUXp_h7l7xvqg7

https://merily9.livejournal.com/290060.html

https://m.povar.ru/recipes/kyata_bakinskaya-83355.html

Also your "EU source" is biased as it's written by an Armenian Viceskeeni2 (talk) 20:10, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

My "EU" source is EU, and is just nominated by Armenian. The foundation is pretty famous.

https://steemit.com/food/@singa/baku-kyata - blogspot, unreliable

https://www.frisaga.com/destination/cuisine/zagatala-azerbaijan - this one states that Gata is eaten in Zagatala not that Gata is Azerbaijani

https://www.chefspencil.com/most-popular-desserts-in-azerbaijan/ - this one is better, but is written by Azerbaijani essentially. Also is not specific to Gata

https://gotovim-doma.ru/recipe/9962-azerbaydzhanskaya-kyata - Russian recipe site everybody is free to edit

https://dzen.ru/a/ZFCUXp_h7l7xvqg7 - Open blogspot, it is like citing a twitter post

https://merily9.livejournal.com/290060.html - Same

https://m.povar.ru/recipes/kyata_bakinskaya-83355.html - Russian recipe site everybody is free to edit

Athoremmes (talk) 20:35, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

TasteAtlas also says that it is Armenian

https://www.tasteatlas.com/gata Athoremmes (talk) 20:36, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Taste Atlas also includes the Azerbaijani name Viceskeeni2 (talk) 20:37, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

I just noticed your seriouseats.com is also made by an Armenian which only leaves the Pohlebkin source and that one mentions Kyata as the main name Viceskeeni2 (talk) 20:40, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Warning: I have reverted this article back to its state before this recent edit war erupted. It is good to see the discussion happening above. Keep it up, and achieve consensus on how to move forward. Continued edit warring is NOT the way forward and will be met with blocks. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:00, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

I'm sorry but if you looked at the edit history, you'd see that before the discussion started, it was the version that included Azerbaijan so please revert it back. Viceskeeni2 (talk) 20:01, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

@Hammersoft Viceskeeni2 (talk) 20:03, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

The article was unchanged since January 26 until you attempted to make this addition. You added it and have been reverted by two other editors while you continued to revert war to push it in anyways. The status quo before this was the January 26 version, and that is what I reverted it to. I'm sorry you think it is 'wrong', but that is immaterial. I am not here to judge if the January 26 version is 'right'. I am here to stop the edit war, which I hope (hope) is stopped. Get consensus. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:07, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

I agree with the above assessment of which revision is the status quo ante. Additionally, noting that editors above seem to be arguing about several different points at once (including less-relevant tangents about pizza), I think the editors currently involved are unlikely to reach a consensus in favor of a new revision at this point, and I'd encourage Viceskeeni to propose an WP:RfC question in order for other editors to provide input. You could propose the entire contested content, but you may find it easier to attract and discuss with other editors if you zero in on a smaller change to start. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:29, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

How do i propose that + the only content contested is whether or not to add Azerbaijan to this article, nothing else Viceskeeni2 (talk) 20:33, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

In that case if I were you I’d frame the RfC question as something like Should the article include text regarding the dish’s popularity in Azerbaijan, as shown in this edit? The WP:RfC page has examples of the RfC template used to cross-post the discussion to a central list. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:46, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

"Should the article include text regarding the dish’s popularity in Azerbaijan and importance for its cuisine, as shown in this edit?" would be more accurate. Alright sure, where do I post it Viceskeeni2 (talk) 20:47, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

I've already created it Athoremmes (talk) 20:53, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

and what will we do now? Wait? If no one responds? Viceskeeni2 (talk) 20:59, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

RfCs typically run for about a month at least before closure, although the outcomes at the end are often clear enough that no formal closure is necessary. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 13:38, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

Can we require an arbiter? Athoremmes (talk) 15:47, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

If you mean someone from the Arbitration Committee, no. The Arbitration Committee does not engage in content disputes. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy#Scope_and_responsibilities. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:53, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

I’m guessing they just mean an uninvolved closer, in which case the answer is that depending on whether the discussion is close at all, we’ll see if we need one and can request one if needed when the RfC ends. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 16:54, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

A closer of this thread (sort of an arbiter in a sense) can be asked for at WP:CR, but if the rfc is about the same thing, that should probably proceed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:10, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

I agree with ithat Athoremmes (talk) 20:37, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

RfC Gata as an Armenian pastry

There is a debate in the article whether we should include Azerbaijan as a substantial component of the article or not, you can see in the article history which revisions we are discussing.

Athoremmes (talk) 20:48, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

The revisions (note, Armenian origin would be included in the article + "Different types of Gata" wouldn't include Turkey) Viceskeeni2 (talk) 20:55, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose The revision that is proposed for inclusion isn't properly sourced, it's poorly sourced with food blogs, travel blogs and the like. It also implies that Gata is both Armenian and Azerbaijan by wording of "contested in and between Armenia and Azerbaijan"; there was no reliable source added for this. Vanezi (talk) 03:55, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

• Include (briefly) (Summoned by bot) AFAI can ascertain from the discussion above, the dish is Armenian in origin, but a similar, but differently named, dish is produced in Azerbaijan. Why not include that info along with brief mention of how it is similar/different. This isn't exactly rare, traditional foods aren't patented and it only takes a single baker at some point in the past to have spotted an opportunity, especially when using fairly 'standard' ingredients/techniques as is the case here. Of course you need sources that make the connection and in this topic area, they are often only tourist/food guides, but those should be reliable enough for the purpose of recording whether the food is produced/consumed in Azerbaijan.Pincrete (talk) 07:41, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Discussion

• Comment: I'm not sure the question is well-phrased as of this timestamp. As someone new to this discussion I'm not clear what is being decided. The question should value clarity, while staying brief. BusterD (talk) 01:47, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

  BusterD, I'm partial to my framing of course. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 01:54, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

  Framing of such language is quite essential to a good RfC. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the frame of intentionally excluding such information. It is a difficult starting point for me. This is the value I bring to this conversation, sadly. BusterD (talk) 02:01, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

  Since we are discussing the addition of multiple points into the article, it is quite hard to wrap it into few words, but essentially our problem regards the inclusion of the dish being azeri on a same level as of it being Armenian Athoremmes (talk) 02:39, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

  And again, spreading fake news to support your agenda. I never said it's as much Azerbaijani as it is Armenian. Viceskeeni2 (talk) 06:40, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

  It is clear from viewing revisions Athoremmes (talk) 15:02, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

  Like I said, tell me the part where I said it's Azerbaijani, but that would undermine you spreadng your nationalist agenda and fake news. I have asked you this multiple times, you still haven't responded ever :) Viceskeeni2 (talk) 18:56, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

  I have linked the revisions, there you can see the information that wants to be added. Viceskeeni2 (talk) 06:40, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

• Comment: Here is the article on Kete (food), where you can include information on Azerbaijani kete and close this discussion. Barseghian Lilia (talk) 09:35, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

  Yes, I think that it is a good idea to move it there. Athoremmes (talk) 15:02, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

  Azerbaijani kyata is more similar to this than Kete, it's completely different from Kete, only the names are similar Viceskeeni2 (talk) 19:00, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

  Similar in what way exactly? Kete is similar to Gata overall. Athoremmes (talk) 21:40, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

  Kete looks more like burek, if you'd take a look at Karabakh or Baku kyatas, you'd see theyre more similar to Armenian pastries than Armenian ones. Viceskeeni2 (talk) 09:41, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

  I could also make an extra wikipedia article only about Azerbaijani Kyata if you'd agree to it Viceskeeni2 (talk) 09:46, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

  Kete is a continuation of Gata, it is made similarly. In some wikipedias the articles are merged. Tbh should've been mergen here too, but due to the avid discussions it was repurposed. Athoremmes (talk) 14:27, 20 March 2025 (UTC)