Talk:G. F. Vernon's cricket team in Ceylon and India in 1889–90

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:G. F. Vernon's XI cricket team in Ceylon and India in 1889–90/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lee Vilenski (talk · contribs) 18:52, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Hello, I am planning on reviewing this article for GA Status, over the next couple of days. Thank you for nominating the article for GA status. I hope I will learn some new information, and that my feedback is helpful.

If nominators or editors could refrain from updating the particular section that I am updating until it is complete, I would appreciate it to remove a edit conflict. Please address concerns in the section that has been completed above (If I've raised concerns up to references, feel free to comment on things like the lede.)

I generally provide an overview of things I read through the article on a first glance. Then do a thorough sweep of the article after the feedback is addressed. After this, I will present the pass/failure. I may use strikethrough tags when concerns are met. Even if something is obvious why my concern is met, please leave a message as courtesy.

Best of luck! you can also use the {{done}} tag to state when something is addressed. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)}

Please let me know after the review is done, if you were happy with the review! Obviously this is regarding the article's quality, however, I want to be happy and civil to all, so let me know if I have done a good job, regardless of the article's outcome.

Links

Prose

Lede

• Ceylon will need a link. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:36, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  Done. BoJó | talk UTC 13:55, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

• Notes in lede will need citing. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:36, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  Sorry, yes, I meant to attend to those. Now done. BoJó | talk UTC 13:56, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

• ould not be described as top-class - I think I mentioned this in another review, but unless "top-class" is jargon we shoudn't use it. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:36, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  Agreed. I've changed it to say the team and its matches were not recognised as first-class. BoJó | talk UTC 13:57, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

• 28 November to 7 December before moving on to Calcutta where the Indian part of the tour began on 23 December. - considering we have the start and end dates of the whole tour, can we not use early/late December for start/end dates? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:36, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  Done. You're right – too many specific dates in a short span. BoJó | talk UTC 13:58, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

• Vernon's XI won ten matches, six by an innings. Two were drawn and they were defeated once - I feel like this kinda overplays the matches. Can we not say "of the thirteen matches, Vernon's XI won ten matches (six by over an innings) and drew two. They were defeated only once... Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:36, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  I've used your wording which emphasises that the team was successful overall. BoJó | talk UTC 13:59, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

• We have a section on "aftermath" and should really be included in the lede. For instance The tour was a success and it made a significant contribution to the growth and development of cricket in the sub-continent. seems like very lede-worthy stuff. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:36, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  Agreed. I've added that at the end of the lead. BoJó | talk UTC 14:00, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

General

• Link P&O. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:44, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  Done. BoJó | talk UTC 14:00, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

• I know we don't link major destinations, but Colarado, Calcutta and Ceylon probably don't meet this distinction. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:44, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  For Colorado, did you mean Colombo? I've linked first instances of these in lead and narrative. Please let me know if you spot any others. BoJó | talk UTC 14:02, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

• but everyone was shocked - editorialising. Remove Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:44, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  It was, really. I've amended it to read "...progressing well until the sudden death on 10 September of H. E. Rhodes..." BoJó | talk UTC 14:03, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

• his erstwhile colleagues - fluff. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:44, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  Changed wording to "...the same day the team was due to depart..." BoJó | talk UTC 14:05, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

• Notes need sourcing.Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:44, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  Done. Same ones as in lead. BoJó | talk UTC 14:05, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

• The tour began in Kandy on 28 November 1889. The team played two matches in Ceylon and then moved on to India in December. Starting with the match against the Calcutta Cricket Club at Eden Gardens on 23 December, they played eleven matches in India to the end of February 1890. - all unsourced Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:44, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  Can you leave this one with me for the moment. Looks like an oversight. BoJó | talk UTC 14:07, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Found the itinerary and added citation. BoJó | talk UTC 15:19, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

• in most cases, any connection to a modern club is tenuous at best. - remove, doesn't add anything to the previous part of the sentence. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:44, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  Done. BoJó | talk UTC 14:09, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

• I think the table needs a dedicated refs column. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:44, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  Good idea. That's a definite improvement. BoJó | talk UTC 14:15, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

• The tables probably need some rowscopes. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:44, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Good idea. I agree. Looks better than having right-handed in nearly every batting cell. BoJó | talk UTC 14:55, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Review meta comments

• I'll begin the review as soon as I can! If you fancy returning the favour, I have a list of nominations for review at WP:GAN and WP:FAC, respectively. I'd be very grateful if you were to complete one of these if you get time. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:52, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you, Lee. Please let me know of any questions and I'll try to help. BoJó | talk UTC 04:04, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for doing the review, Lee. As before, very thorough and you've helped improve the article. I think I've covered everything above but please let me know if you need anything else. All the best. BoJó | talk UTC 15:22, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Good work with this one. I'm happy to promote. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:35, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Lee. Much appreciated and all the best. BoJó | talk UTC 15:38, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 02:29, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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George Vernon

• ... that George Vernon's (pictured) loss against the Parsis cricket team was seen as "a blow to the prestige of the Empire"? Source: Guha, Ramachandra (2001). A Corner of a Foreign Field – An Indian History of a British Sport. Picador. ISBN 978-0-3304-9117-4. p 35
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Shrine of the Immaculate Conception

Improved to Good Article status by Boca Jóvenes (talk). Nominated by Onegreatjoke (talk) at 23:03, 2 November 2022 (UTC).

• Hi Onegreatjoke, review follows: article promoted to GA on 31 October; article is well written and cited inline throughout to what look to be reliable sources for the subject; I didn't spot any overly close paraphrasing in a spot check on some of the online sources; hook is interesting, mentioned in the article and cited (AGF on offline source); image looks OK, from an 1896 publication; a QPQ has been carried out. Can't see any problems here - Dumelow (talk) 15:26, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
  • @Onegreatjoke and Dumelow: the article just says that "many" said it – who does the quote come from? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 11:00, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I can't add anything here I'm afraid, I don't have access to the source - Dumelow (talk) 06:39, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Boca Jóvenes:, Do you know where the source of the quote comes from? Onegreatjoke (talk) 17:12, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Onegreatjoke, Dumelow and theleekycauldron. Hello, all, and apologies for not answering sooner. As the hook line itself says, the source is Ramachandra Guha. He has named his own sources throughout his book and, for the view that the Parsi victory over Vernon's team was a blow to imperial prestige, Guha has referenced Thoughts on Indian Cricket (1905) by Framji Patel, the Parsi team captain, who gives the Indian viewpoint; and The Lighter Side of Cricket (1901) by Captain Philip Trevor, a British soldier serving in India at the time. Additional information about the subsequent prestige of the Parsi team has been found in The Times of India (1890) and the Bombay Gazette (1890). Guha's comments echo the earlier book by Mihir Bose. On page 26 of his History of Indian Cricket (1990), Bose says it was the first great cricket match played in India and the Parsee victory sparked the "sort of sporting hyperbole that rare triumphs can inspire". The team were garlanded by lady admirers and lavish parties were held in celebration. A people, Bose says, "had suddenly rediscovered itself on a cricket field". I hope this helps. Please let me know if you need anything else. BcJvs | talk UTC 14:34, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

XI?

Pardon my ignorance, but what on Earth are all the "XI"s in this article supposed to mean? What is an "XI cricket team", and how does it differ from other cricket sides? This might be helpful information to add to the article, whatever the explanation is. -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 01:12, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Bryan. A cricket team consists of eleven players and it has always been standard nomenclature to call a team "Somebody's XI" if it has no national, local or club affiliation. The main difference between Vernon's XI and a team representing an organisation is that it was formed on an ad hoc basis – by private individuals, as it were. Vernon's XI was, on the face of it, an English team but it had no official sanction by, say, Marylebone Cricket Club (MCC) or one of the English county clubs so they could not be called England or anything similar. Sorry for the delay in replying but I'm extremely busy in real life at present. I hope this helps but please let me know if you have any more questions about the article. Thanks and all the best. BcJvs UTC 19:04, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply! In that case, the article's title continues to seem awkward and unnatural to me. It would make sense to refer to the team as either "Vernon's cricket team" or as "Vernon's eleven", but "Vernon's eleven cricket team"? I suggest reducing the title to G. F. Vernon's cricket team in Ceylon and India in 1889–90 and leaving all the "XI"s for the text. -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 19:36, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Actually, I agree, but I never thought about it before. The format of these titles goes right back to the early days of the cricket project. It is fair enough for something like Indian cricket team in England in 2022 which uses Indian as an adjective. I think we need to have "cricket" in the title as "...Vernon's XI in..." would be inadequate. I'll change it as you suggest. Thanks very much, Bryan. All the best. BcJvs UTC 20:50, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

• @Bryanrutherford0: Just letting you know that the move mentioned in this section has been reverted per WP:DENY since Boca Jóvenes was determined to be a sockpuppet of a blocked editor. (If you are still in the belief that the page should be moved, feel free to move it yourself; if you cannot or do not know how, please see WP:RM for methods in which to move the page.) Steel1943 (talk) 22:58, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

A. N. Curzon

I strongly suspect that A. N. Curzon is either The Honourable Alfred Nathaniel Curzon (1860–1920) or the Hon. Assheton Nathaniel Curzon (1867–1950), both younger sons of the 4th Lord Scarsdale and brothers to the esteemed politician George Curzon, 1st Marquess Curzon of Kedleston, a viceroy of India in the early 1900s. I notice that Cricket, 27 March 1890, p. 44 calls him "Hon. A.N. Curzon" in its account of Verson's XI v. Punjab, so he was clearly the son of a nobleman. According to another newspaper article, Alfred was an officer in the Derbyshire Regiment, being commissioned in 1879 and promoted to captain of the 5th Militia Battalion in 1885. Acording to David Gilmour's biography of the marquess, Assheton tried his hand at business but was notoriously bad with money and nearly went bankrupt (pp. 422-23). Unfortunately, I cannot seem to find confirmation of which of the brothers played for Vernon's side in 1890. —Noswall59 (talk) 18:17, 7 December 2022 (UTC).

I have just discovered the following in the Derbyshire Times of 1 December 1888 ("Local News", p. 5): "The Commander-in-Chief has approved of Captain the Hon. A. N. Curzon, 5th (Militia) Battalion, Derbyshire Regiment, visiting Ceylon till required for the regimental training of 1890." This suggests, given the information above, that it was very likely Alfred who played on Vernon's side in January 1890. --Noswall59 (talk) 11:51, 8 December 2022 (UTC).

Thank you for this, Noswall59. Can you leave it with me, please, and I'll add it to the article when I've caught up with things. I'm very busy in real life at present. All the best. BcJvs UTC 19:06, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

S. L. Murray

Another likely identification -- S. L. Murray was described in Cricket, 27 December 1889, p. 11, as "Mr. Murray, of the Gordon Highlanders". The Army List for 1894 (p. 860) lists Stewart Lygon Murray as a lieutenant, commissioned in 1884. He was born 1863 and died 1930, and was the son of Sir Herbert Murray, governor of Newfoundland, and the author of several books on war. --Noswall59 (talk) 11:47, 8 December 2022 (UTC).

I notice that there was also a Frederick W. Kerr in the Gordon Highlanders at the same time, so likely the "F. W. Kerr" who joined the team with Murray. --Noswall59 (talk) 11:57, 8 December 2022 (UTC).

And thanks for this, too, Noswall59. Please leave it with me for now. All the best. BcJvs UTC 19:07, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Noswall59. I've added the information about Murray, Kerr and Curzon. Again, many thanks for finding it. BcJvs UTC 21:41, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

• @Noswall59: Letting you know as a courtesy that the edits related to this request performed by Boca Jóvenes have been reverted per WP:DENY since the aforementioned editor was determined to be a sockpuppet of a blocked editor. If you believe that their edits are good, feel free to add them back or revert my revert. (I'm okay with you reverting my revert: Basically, if you do that, you take ownership of the aforementioned editor's edits and claim them to be good for Wikipedia ... which is something I'm not going to do since this is not my subject matter expertise at all.) Steel1943 (talk) 23:03, 13 January 2023 (UTC)