Talk:Fruit of the Holy Spirit

Format

Hi, Glad to see you starting an

article; please take my comments as well-meaning. So far, the article does nothing but quote the actual text. An encyclopedia article should state why its important in a broader context, give background information, show its importance and any other points of view. Wikipedia is not a place to simply quote scripture or religious messages, however well meaning they may be. DavidH 03:31, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, there is only one brief paragraph of quotation. The rest is what I wrote.

Surely the actual Bible verse (Galatians 5:22-23) that lists the fruits should be quoted! It is mentioned at the end, but not actually quoting it in an article about it seems strange... Ben davison 17:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Fruit Of The Holy Spirit

There are Bible translations which identify between 8 and 11 fruit of the Holy Spirit They are:

1. LOVE,
2. JOY,
3. PEACE,
4. PATIENCE,
5. KINDNESS,
6. GENEROSITY,
7. GENTLENESS,
8. FAITHFULNESS &
9. SELF CONTROL

^{Other translations exclude generosity which may be a synonym for kindness and include Goodness. Exclude Gentleness and include Meekness. Also in addition to faithfulness and Self Control, Temprance and or Long Suffering may be found.} --InismX (talk) 09:07, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.96.241.8 (talk • contribs) 10:13, 2006 November 14.

Yeah, those are the 9 Christian fruit. Catholics add generosity, chastity, and modesty[1]. Which, I'm not Catholic, I'm Baptist. But someone really ought to mention that the other three are Catholic only. Jrdaigle1000 02:49, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I attempted to include something about the Bible's constancy about men being like trees, especially the righteous man. Jesus says that the ax will be laid to the root, there are things about bearing fruit in and out of season, things such as this. Not explaining the fruits of the Spirit in the context of a man being like a tree makes fruit seem like cutesy talk. There is specific teaching in the Gospels about those trees that are not bearing fruit being like the fig tree, or the chaff being thrown in the fire. Also, that a tree cannot bear good fruit and bad fruit, you know a tree by its fruit. A righteous man can only bear Holy Spirit fruit if he has the Holy Spirit, therefore it is called the fruit of the Holy Spirit. I know this is scattered, but I wanted to include this as a starting point for a more clear article. Dancingdoe (talk) 16:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Clean-up required

I think there are several areas where I think the article needs work:

1. The biblical form of words is the "Fruit of the Spirit" not the "Fruits of the Spirit". So the article should be moved.
2. The grammar is poor, eg. "In the person who possesses these characteristics, this is a life-change including their behaviour." The clauses don't agree.
3. Firstly it reads a bit POV, in that it sounds more like something from Every Day with Jesus than an encyclopaedia.
4. A level 2 (==) heading is not required for each of the fruit - a better way to explain the fruit can be found in article about the Catholic doctrine of Seven gifts of the Holy Spirit
5. The issue of whether they are one unit or many is a bit pedantic. I always though the singular was used because there was one Spirit not one fruit, e.g. "the fruit of the apple tree is...". Besides I've heard too many sermons saying we should reflect on each fruit/characteristic separately.
6. Don't use out of date translations of the Greek and Hebrew, use something like the NIV or ESV.
7. It needs references
8. Finally, remember it's an encyclopaedia article so it should discuss sources, historical development, devotional use, and its relationship with other "... of the Holy Spirit" topics. An example of a more encyclopaedic article can be found here.

This is a whole lot of work, sorry about dumping it and running off but I think the article on this important topic needs an overhaul. Journeyman 04:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above and I'll try to do some of it. 199.71.183.2 16:50, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Patience: The current version tells us that this can be two words in the Greek, but not which one is used here. I'm beginning to suspect that the original author here just took the nine words and quoted the Strongs's reference for each. 199.71.183.2 17:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

We should be using translations of Greek and Hebrew, because those are the base texts. Similar to how we would study Greek mythological texts. NIV and ESV are arguably out of date as well. And why does the referential verse state the source as Galatians 19-23 instead of 22-23? Also, the section discussing the nine-pointed star describes love as charitas in Latin, but in the section discussing love it describes it as amat in Latin.209.173.101.96 (talk) 01:34, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

The Fruits of the Holy Spirit in Catholic Tradition

• Catholic tradition ennumerates 12 fruits, which are given in the Vulgata: “Fructus autem Spíritus est: cáritas, gáudium, pax, patiéntia, benígnitas, bónitas, longanímitas, mansuetúdo, fides, modéstia, continéntia, cástitas. Advérsus hujúsmodi non est lex.” (Gal 5, 22–23), that is: charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity, mildness, faithfulness, modesty, continence and chastity. The article should include the Catholic view.
  • Cathecism of the Catholic Church, 1832
  • Summa Theologica, 1^a 2^æ, q. 70, a. 3
    • Kugland (talk) 08:02, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

-For the record it is not just Catholics who believe in the fruit of the spirit, other Christians believe in it too. Allymaybiskuts (talk) 16:34, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Need secular source

We need secular sources for this article. The ratings indicate that people aren't finding it objective. This is a problem. 69.86.225.27 (talk) 17:18, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Why does a spiritual work need secular sources? That concept is bizarre to me.
Do secular works need religious sources to back them up?
Do botanical works need astrological sources too?
What kind of secular sources are you talking about?

Do you want a background on who Paul was, the time frame when he was writing
the epistle to the churches in Galatia, and some greater context for the epistle?
Those can all be established through Biblical, non-secular sources.

What exactly are you looking for, except some way to refute the relevance of what
Paul wrote? I don't understand the objection.

PoqVaUSA (talk) 16:08, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

By the way, I think that the Koran is a false book, but I would rather see what
Muslim theologians have to say about the Koran than what some secular scholars
have to say. I might be persuaded to change my mind if I read material written by
people who value the subject matter rather than by those who have little regard
for it.

The articles still need to be written objectively as in "this is what is represented by
the text" rather than "this is how things actually are." A theologian can write "this
is part of thus-and-such larger concept or principle" and still be writing objectively.

When looking at the origins of the source book itself, that is an area where secular
scholarship can play a role. Describing what the concepts are inside the source book
seems to be an area where a secular viewpoint has no real role. And yes it is "insertion
of a point of view" to insert secular views into interpretation of the contents and meaning
of a religious book.

PoqVaUSA (talk) 17:07, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

For a religious text, it is certainly useful to point out notable religious interpretations and how they might vary across sects. But it is also useful to have a secular, evidence-based perspective that is untainted by an ideology pushing a specific interpretation for religious reasons, so we know what important words meant at the time. Religious scholars sometimes ignore or actively suppress facts and viewpoints that undermine the doctrines of their own sect. It is thus useful to have secular sources from the time period of authorship that corroborate or contradict the facts claimed in a text, and useful to have historians and textual critics that can give more objective context and analysis.

We do usually cover notable non-evidence-based (i.e. religious and pseudoscientific) perspectives on say, the medicinal uses of a given plant or the large-scale structure of the universe, and if applicable point out those theories are unsupported by or contradicted by evidence. -- Beland (talk) 02:17, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Nine or twelve

Article currently reads in part But the New American Bible approved for Catholic liturgical use in the United States follows the Greek and lists the original 12 gifts. (my emphasis) But the reference given is https://biblehub.com/interlinear/galatians/5.htm which gives nine in both the Greek and the gloss.

So this seems to me to be not just POV but actually false, in that the reference blatantly contradicts the claim made.

The New American Bible is also available online, links are given in that article but they give trouble with my slow Internet. However https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5%3A22-23&version=NABRE lists nine. So again, the claim of twelve as given in the article appears to be simply false.

There is room for discussion as to how many Fruit of the Spirit the Bible describes, but no room for false claims as to what particular versions in fact say. Andrewa (talk) 05:46, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Neutrality and alternate definitions

Looking at the sourcing for this article, it's unclear to me that the definitions being given aren't specific to a particular denomination or even author. While merging a section from Galatians 5 into this article, I found that the sourcing in that version was also a bit suspect. I think someone will need to go through and figure out which sources are sectarian or secular or what, and combine, keep, or toss as needed. -- Beland (talk) 02:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Text moved from Galatians 5

Stained glass rose window depicting the Lord as Good Shepherd along with the "Fruit of the Spirit" (Galatians 5:22-23), Christ Church Cathedral, Dublin, Ireland.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

— Galatians 5:22–23 NKJV

• "The fruit of the Spirit": the Ethiopian version reads "...of the Holy Spirit". Referring to the "internal principle of grace", called the Spirit (Galatians 5:17), and the graces of which are called "fruit", not "works" (which refers to the actions of the flesh). It is in the form of a "list of virtues", which has no comparable juxtaposition lists in the contemporary writings; the closest parallel in the New Testament is perhaps James 3:13–17.

• "Love" (Greek: agape, Latin: caritas): may be understood as "love to God", and also "love to Christ", which teaches people to love the neighbors; furthermore, "love to the house and worship of God", to the truths and ordinances of the Gospel.

• "Joy" (Greek: chara, Latin: gaudium): which is in the Holy Spirit, has him for its author and the object of it is God, as a covenant God and Father in Christ. Moreover, joy in the good of others, of fellow creatures.

• "Peace" (Greek: eirene, Latin: pax): refers to the peace produced through the application of the blood of Christ for pardon, and for justification to the sinner's soul, to yield the peace, quietness, and tranquillity of mind. It is also be the peace with all others, under a work of the God's Spirit of God, to live peaceably with all people.

• "Longsuffering" (Greek: makrothumia, Latin: longanimitas) and "kindness" (Greek: chrestotes, Latin: benignitas): instead of a "patient waiting" for good things or more grace or glory to come, it is a "patient bearing and enduring", through the Spirit, of the present evils with gladness; being slow to anger, ready to forgive mistakes, and bear with as well as forbear one another, accompanied with gentleness, humanity, affability, courteousness, in words, gestures, and actions, to be an imitation of the gentleness of Christ.

• "Goodness"(Greek: agathosune, Latin: bonitas): acts of goodness to men, in a natural, civil, moral, spiritual, and evangelic manner, for the benefit both of soul and body, and is well pleasing to God when performed in the exercise of the grace.

• "Faith" or "faithfulness" (Greek: pistis, Latin: fides): Fidelity, both in words and in deeds, is very significant in the Gospel, and a profession of belief. Faith in Christ is a gift of God, and the work of his Spirit, leading a person into believing in Christ for salvation, and making a "profession of faith".

• "Meekness" or "gentleness" (Greek: prautes, Latin: modestia): refers to humility ("lowliness of mind") which is patterned after Christ and transcribed by the Holy Spirit from Christ into the heart of a regenerate person; thus, walking humbly with God, acknowledging as well as being thankful for every blessing, and depending on his grace, while behaving with modesty and humility among people.

• "Temperance or self-control" (Greek: egkrateia, Latin: continentia) or "continence": refers to "chastity and sobriety", such as moderation in eating and drinking.

• "Against such there is no law": The listed virtues are perfectly agreeable to the law of God. The persons possessing the virtues of the 'fruit' have nothing to fear from the law.

References

Beland (talk) 02:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)