Talk:Frank Collin

Media Portrayal

Treybien removed all derivative portrayals from this section leaving only direct biographical sketches. Maybe there is a consensus to do so but let's discuss.RevelationDirect (talk) 00:01, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

IP's text moved here

Note I didn't write the text below. I've removed it from the article as it isn't written in the correct tone and would need proper citing also. I haven't seen the documentary so can't add it myself as I don't know if it is accurate, although I have no reason to think it isn't. "Note: some of the above cited material is not consistent with the here mentioned documentary "Nazi America". In this film it is stated that the Justice Department intervened in the matter, asking Collin what "he would need to not march in Skokie". His reply was a permit to march in Chicago, which was subsequently granted. The specific reason for this decision is not stated, but the implication was that the Justice Dept. did not wish that the Skokie march take place. A member of a Jewish organization also stated that they were ready to fly in their best 'street people' who could 'handle themselves in any type of situation', the implication here being that the Skokie community was ready to defend itself from Collin's organization, if that's what it came to. This documentary has been aired many times on THC and states the facts in precisely this manner." Dougweller (talk) 06:58, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Jewish Nazi

This seems to be an interesting case. Is he the only Jewish Nazi?--76.31.238.174 (talk) 05:47, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Frank Joseph has been a Nazi a VERY LONG TIME AGO (35 years!!!) To call him a Nazi today is not only unfair, but barefaced bullshit and sheer ratfucking! Being a dedicated anti-Fascist - who has no reason at all to come to an actual Nazi's defense! - I can tell you: I have carefully read most of Frank's books, and I couldn't find any NS-tendencies, racist or anti-Semitic statements respectively indication of such notions or ideas. The present Wikipedia article is totally missleading (see previous statement!) and a shame. It should be rewritten from scratch! -- 91.9.250.64 (talk) 22:58, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Father himself stated he was Jewish

It isn't just photostats and the issue arose earlier. See this 1970 UPI story[1] where his father, originally named Max Cohn (the spelling in the report) states that he is Jewish and changed his name to Collin. A slightly later UPI story spells the name Cohen.[2] Dougweller (talk) 13:06, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Retitle to 'Frank Joseph'

As time has moved on I believe that his most used name is now Frank Joseph. See for instance as search on "Frank Joseph" Nazi Atlantis[3] compared to "Frank Collin" Nazi Atlantis[4] - about 5 times as many hits for Joseph. Remove the word Atlantis and you get about the same, 8000[5] for Collin, 138,000 for Joseph[6]. It's hard tto do searches as there are of course *other people by the same name. But I think that now he is normally thought of as Frank Joseph (I suspect a lot of people don't even know him under any other name). Dougweller (talk) 13:17, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

oppose. his "work" in the fringe is a pen name i believe and is completely unimpactful and unnoticed. his "work" as Collin in the neo nazi world was nationally (and internationally) known and lead to constitutional precedent setting legal case. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:30, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - he is an obscure fringe/crank writer under the new name; but was once an infamous political figure under the old. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:01, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose, for above reason, though mentioning the alternate name in the first sentence would be in keeping with WP:LEADSENTENCE. Agyle (talk) 16:26, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Kaplan reference comparison

1997 book: Covington, his rival for NSPA "power", made the fortuitous discovery (while rifling through Collin's desk) that the half-Jewish fuehrer also had a weakness for pedophilia and did not hesitate to photograph his dalliances with a number of young boys. As a result, Collin was sent to prison.

2000 book: the NSPA leadership discovered in Collin's living quarters an archive of photographs of nude and seminude young boys, sometimes posed in uniforms or with weapons, which commemorated Frank Collin's frequent forays into the world of homosexual pedophilia.

We utilize both of these references. I find it a bit confusing though: why does Kaplan initially in his 1997 book say that Covington specifically found these pictures, and shifts in his 2000 book to broadly saying "the leadership"? During this 3-year span was the exact locator called into question? Like could this mean that someone else found them and showed them to Kovington, and Kovington took responsibility for initiating the reaction to the discovery?

More from the 2000 one:

It seems the half-Jewish leader of the National Socialist Party of America had for several years been luring young boys into party headquarters for these photographic sessions, and, as it turned out, for sexual activities as well.

a plot code-named "Operation Bobby Brown" was hatched to get rid of Collin. The police were duly summoned, and Collin was ultimately convicted and sentenced to a seven-year prison term.

Is there information on what led to his release after 3 rather than 7 years? This isn't really explained. Besides relying on Kaplans' books to explain the circumstances of his arrest and sentence, do we have access to the official records of Pontiac Correctional Center from 1979? It would be valuable to this article to know the exact wording of the sentence, and to know if access exists to transcripts from the court proceedings. For example, was the conviction solely for the pictures discussed in the 1997 book? Or was the sentence also for the alleged 'sexual activities' mentioned in the 2000 book? Ranze (talk) 10:21, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Ranze, I'm confident that they exist and are accessible, but I'd be careful to adhere to WP:PRIMARY if you want to use them on Wikipedia to refute reliable secondary sources. ("Reliable" in the WP:RS sense, not in the sense of their being accurate). A quick googling shows that both Kaplan's and Berlet's claims are disputed (i.e. that Covington found the material, and that Collin was convicted in 1979). While my feeling is that both authors are wrong, without overwhelming contradictory secondary sources, I'd suggest presenting their opinions neutrally, alongside alternative opinions, with in-article attributions to the competing versions of facts. I noticed that the information in the Wikipedia article seems to radically mischaracterize Kaplan 1997 (e.g., the Kaplan 1997 cite makes no mention of evidence being turned over to police, let alone that it was done in a play for power; that seems to come more from Kaplan 2000). If you plan on working on the section I'll leave it to you, but if not I'll try rewriting it myself. Agyle (talk) 13:38, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

oops, I may have been careless in the use and placement of named sources not paying attention to the fact that I was utilizing two works by Kaplan. will review it this weekend. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:17, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

After further googling, it seems Covington said NSPA spokesman Mike Whalen initially discovered the evidence against Collin, and that Covington organized its collection and delivery to police in November 1979. Some sources suggest Collin was ousted from the NSPA on 1979-11-21, he was arrested on 1980-01-10, he pled guilty and was convicted of eight counts of Indecent Liberties in Cook County Circuit Court case numbers 80883-80888, he was taken into custody by the Illinois Department of Corrections and placed in Cook County Jail on 1980-03-28, sentenced to 7 years on 1980-04-17, transferred to Pontiac State Prison 1980-04-18, paroled after minimum time served on 1983-04-13, and parole ended by the IDC on 1985-04-15.

Some of this can be substantiated with secondary sources, some of those sources are contradicted by other secondary sources, some of it would probably require primary sources to verify, and details about the evidence discovery are simply unknowable. Here are some secondary sources:

• Associated Press (1979-12-29). "Collin loses Nazi party post". The Lewiston (Maine) Daily Sun. p. 7. Covington, 26, of Raleigh, N.C., said he had taken over as head of the National Socialist Party of America
• Associated Press (1980-01-12). "Former Nazi leader allegedly molests boys". The Lakeland Ledger. p. 6C.
• Associated Press (1980-03-15). "Former American Nazi leader sentenced for indecencies". Daytona Beach Morning Journal. p. 15A.
• "Paroled". The Pittsburgh Press. 1983-04-14. p. A5. Frank Collin, the former director of the American Nazi Party, was paroled from prison in Illinois. He served three years of a seven-year term for sexually abusing young boys.
• Flavin, R. D. (1997-02-21). "The many faces of Frank Collin". The Greenwich Village Gazette.
• Covington, Harold A. (under pseudonym The Old Man) (2005-08-01). "The Frank Collin Affair" (blog post). Thoughtcrime. Note: published under the pseudonym The Old Man, this is a primary, self-published source that may or may not be considered reliable (see WP:SPS) for limited uses. It attributes the initial discovery of evidence to NSPA member Mike Whalen, described elsewhere as an NSPA spokesman at the time.

Another source that mentions the Operation Bobby Brown:

• Wheaton, Elizabeth (1 April 2009). Codename Greenkil: The 1979 Greensboro Killings. University of Georgia Press. p. 209. ISBN 978-0-8203-3148-5.

Two sources on Collin's alleged Jewish background (along with some general life background):

• United Press International (1970-04-24). "Young Nazi leader claims dad a liar". Beaver County Times. p. Second front page.
• Associated Press (1977-07-24). "Nazi's father survived Dachau". Toledo Blade. p. A20.

Agyle (talk) 22:59, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Edit war on Kaplan's description

Jeffrey Kaplan is mentioned in two attributions in the "Downfall" section. An editor changed "Jeffrey Kaplan" to "author Jeffrey Kaplan" here, to provide some explanation of who was being attributed. The change was removed here, with the edit summary "why would we call him an author - if we called him anything we'd use the description in his article, 'academic', but the link is there to let people find out about him". A third editor reverted the reversion, to restore the word "author", with no edit summary. A fourth editor reverted that reversion, to remove the word "author", with the edit summary "Doesn't seem any more descriptive".

It is pretty common practice to provide a short description of a person's job, qualifications, or connection to a piece of writing when they're mentioned. Wikilinking is great, but I think the piece should be written to stand on its own.

To answer the question "why would we call him an author", I'd suggest because he's an author, and because that provides an explanation of why he's being mentioned here, the implication being he wrote about this. If the reference were instead to a recorded classroom lecture, I'd emphasize that he was a professor. I can definitely see mentioning he's a professor/academic as well, but since that alone doesn't explain his relationship to this topic, I think author is a reasonable part of the attribution. Another approach would be to introduce him as a professor or academic, and explicitly attribute the book without explicitly without explicitly describing him as an author, for example "According to professor Jeffrey Kaplan in Radical Religion in America, ..." You could also give an even more detailed description, like "Associate Professor of Religion at the University of Wisconsin–Oshkosh", or add other credentials credentials, but that seems unnecessarily detailed; the shorter versions answer the basic question of why he's being referenced in the article.

To answer the "doesn't seem any more descriptive", my opinion is that "author Jeffrey Kaplan" is more descriptive than "Jeffrey Kaplan", but I guess it's subjective.

Agyle (talk) 16:25, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Blues Brothers Head Nazi

Frank Collin was the inspiration for Henry Gibson's Head Nazi character in the 1980 film The Blues Brothers. 24.13.134.216 (talk) 05:06, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

vile paedo apologists editing the page?

Frank Joseph is a convicted paedophile. I viewed this entry several years back, and last year. Over time the fact he is a child molester gets removed or censored, it now barely mentioned and confined in a subsection. I can only presume some sort of sick paedo apologists are making these edits. SunkenKingdom (talk) 00:13, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

this article is not based on facts

i think it is not honest to use jewish autor like Kaplan as source about somebody who is described as "nazi". everybody knows that Jews don't like nazis , so they can not write objectively about somebody with such political orientation.

Stories about Collin making some things with children are lies. Somebody ( not Covington ) framed him , put incriminated photos in his desk. This is common thing to slander politician by making some kind of sex offences acusation. If he really did what they claimed he did would he get only 7 years and be released after 3. I think this all story is revenge by ADL for his nazi march trought Skokie. It was fraud used to destroy NSPA.

And there are no proves he is Jew , and in case he is what then. There are milions of Jews in US and nobody make problem about this . Is it illegal to be Jew ? 93.143.24.7 (talk) 22:27, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Your conspiracy theory is going to use some pretty great sources meeting WP:RS. Doug Weller talk 06:54, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Antiquity Magazine article

[7] Doug Weller talk 17:53, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Birthdate for Frank Collin's father Max Simon Cohn

http://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/gedenkbuch/gedenkbuch.html

The Munich Gedenkbuch entry for Siegfried Cohn (father of Max Simon Cohn) lists Max's birthday as August 23, 1913 (born in Munich). See the birth info for Max Simon below:

Cohn, Siegfried (Itzig) Kaufmann Geboren am 09.03.1868 in Waitze, Kr. Birnbaum, Bez. Posen verheiratet

Deportiert am 04.06.1942 nach Theresienstadt Ermordet am 23.03.1943 in Theresienstadt (16. Adar II 5703)

Eltern: Moritz Simon Cohn, Kaufmann und Pauline Cohn, geb. Ury

Geschwister: Gustav, geboren 28.10.1877 Wronki, gestorben 19.01.1942 München, Suizid

Heirat: Heirat am 28.01.1909 in Hannover mit Gertrud Anna Cohn, geb. Hoffmann, geboren am 28.04.1882 in Hannover, gestorben am 27.06.1941 in Heilanstalt Bendorf-Sayn

Kind(er):

Max Simon, geboren am 23.08.1913 in München

Ruth, geboren am 03.09.1920 in München

Precis (talk) 21:09, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Death date for Frank Collin's father Max Simon Cohn (aka Max Frank Collin)

http://www.tributes.com/obituary/show/Max-F.-Collin-86412910

The link above gives the birth date Aug 23, 1913 (in Munich) and death date as July 4, 2009 (in Olympia Fields, Illinois)

The same birthdate is also given in this record found in familysearch.org:

Max F Collin

United States Public Records, 1970-2009

Name: Max F Collin

Also Known As: M Collin

Residence Date: 15 Nov 2007-20 Aug 2008

Residence Place: Olympia Flds, Illinois, United States

Birth Date: 23 Aug 1913

Address: Olympia Flds, Illinois 60461

Address Date: 15 Nov 2007-20 Aug 2008

2nd Address: Lakeville, Minnesota 55044

2nd Address Date: 01 Aug 1995-01 Apr 1998

3rd Address: Tinley Park, Illinois 60477

3rd Address Date: 01 Apr 1986

Possible Relatives: Francis J Collin

Record Number: 229190868

Precis (talk) 22:52, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

@Precis: the problem with all of these is the uncertainty of the link with Frank Collin. Particularly as this is a BLP, we need certainty. If you want confirmation of my opinion, go to WP:RSN and ask others, I certainly don't mind. Doug Weller talk 10:50, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: References 4 and 5 say that Max Simon Cohn is the father of Frank Collin. Is your uncertainty based on the possibility that the Max Simon Cohn listed in Gedenkbuch might be a different person than the Max Simon Cohn who fathered Frank Collin? Or am I missing the point? In short, I'm requesting that, when you have time, please elaborate here on what you mean by "uncertainty of the link with Frank Collin". Thanks. Precis (talk) 18:11, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Really you need to ask at WP:RSN where hopefully (summer holidays don't help) you'll get more help. I only care that we get this right. Doug Weller talk 18:15, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, but since I don't understand exactly what you think needs to be confirmed, I wouldn't even know what to ask RSN. So I won't pursue it further. Precis (talk) 19:02, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

this needs a rewrite or at least a citation

“He wrote New Age and "hyperdiffusionist" works supporting the pseudoarchaeological idea that Old World peoples had migrated to North America in ancient times and created its complex societies of indigenous peoples. This thesis is rejected by mainstream scholars.”

everything about this passage is wrong, from hyperdiffusionist appearing in quotes without indicating who is quoted to the dubious concept of a “complex” society (vs non complex?) to the unsourced assertion that not only some but all “mainstream scholars” reject the Old World dispersal theory (even cats arrived in Americas from the Old World, twice). A total amusement park ride adventure through ideology, bias and nonsense to try to refute much of the same. Ironic. Wtfisthisshi (talk) 18:06, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

It wasn’t a quotation but I’ve removed the quote marks. All mainstream scholars have rejected it, humans came from Asia as did cats.[[8]] and then later after Columbus. I'm not happy with the wording and sources are indeed needed.. Do you really believe in Atlantis? Doug Weller talk 19:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)