Talk:Francis Scott Key Bridge collapse

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A news item involving Francis Scott Key Bridge collapse was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 26 March 2024.

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On 30 March 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Collapse of the Francis Scott Key Bridge. The result of the discussion was not moved.

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This article has been mentioned by a media organization:

Czopek, Madison (March 27, 2024). "Fact Check: Edited Wikipedia entry doesn't prove Israel caused the Baltimore bridge collapse". PolitiFact. Retrieved March 27, 2024. We checked the Wikipedia pages for the Francis Scott Key Bridge and the new page for the Francis Scott Key Bridge collapse, and as of 2 p.m. March 26 neither included a sentence linking Israel to the bridge collapse. ... We rate the claim that an edited Wikipedia entry provides proof that "Israelis deployed Talmudic network to take out" the Baltimore bridge Pants on Fire!

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Allision

Listen there was an argument about this and no one in the world has heard of the term “Allision” Please use simple English! And I don’t care if Allision is the right term 99.9% of people have not heard Of it! And if we are going to have a big argument about this then we should this put “crash related damage to Dali and its cargo”2605:8D80:32D:6A6B:89C8:84E8:1A58:8055 (talk) 21:27, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You mean allision I think. Allison is someone else. Acroterion (talk) 21:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes let me fix that 2605:8D80:32D:6A6B:89C8:84E8:1A58:8055 (talk) 21:43, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed my comment 2605:8D80:32D:6A6B:89C8:84E8:1A58:8055 (talk) 21:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed the header too. Take a look at the archive for the discussion. I agree with you on the general point, but didn't prevail. Acroterion (talk) 21:46, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ok its fixed 2604:3D09:A984:F000:E5F0:24F5:CFBA:2F42 (talk) 00:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the link to the most recent discussion about it that I could find. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

i know about this i read it and they chaged it but now it is allision again 2604:3D09:A984:F000:DC2C:AA35:5DB8:EAA1 (talk) 13:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to collison do not change 2604:3D09:A984:F000:DC2C:AA35:5DB8:EAA1 (talk) 14:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

someone changed it 2604:3D09:A984:F000:DC2C:AA35:5DB8:EAA1 (talk) 16:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A moving ship struck a stationary object, which is the definition of allision. While the word may not be as commonly known as "collision", it's valid and not unnecessarily complicated vocabulary and it's not evident that it qualifies as technical language or jargon. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 19:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The dictionary definition of collision does involves two moving objects. "Allison" is obscure technical jargon. May I suggest an alternative:

Change "Loss of propulsion on ship, leading to collision with pier and subsequent collapse of the bridge truss." to "Loss of propulsion and steering control, leading to ship hitting pier and the collapse of the bridge truss."

Change "Collision-related damage to Dali and its cargo" to "Damage to Dali and its cargo from impact and bridge collapse"

These are both plain language and, I believe, more accurate.--17:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I like the way it's done now: using the correct technical term ("allision") with the definition in a note. It's precise and easily understandable. PRRfan (talk) 19:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like the use of "allision". All it makes me think about is the stereotypical nerdy boy at school who kept correcting other people's grammar. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 22:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer the term "allision" given that it is actually an accepted term in this context and isn't overly complex or jargony. The summary for Air France Flight 447 is "Entered high-altitude stall; impacted ocean" and not "plane crashed because too slow" for a reason. Padgriffin ^{Griffin's Nest} 22:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I have noticed a large volume of edits in Recent Changes coming from this article, and this looks like an edit war is in progress, at least to me. I don't want this to escalate to the edit warring noticeboard and I do not want anyone to get blocked, or the page to get protected. I hope the anonymous editor will consider using the talk page to reach consensus before edits regarding the wording are made. I do not want to take sides, but placing a warning that is visible in the final rendering of the article is not not okay. Thanks, CpX41 (talk) 22:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder whether we might come to consensus by doing this:

Leave the lead paragraph as is (the bridge "...collapsed after the container ship Dali struck one of its piers").
Replace "allision" in the Background section with "collision". The word currently appears in a dependent clause that's meant to be read over quickly; replacing it with the more common term makes for a smoother read.
Replace "allision" in the Timeline section with "collision".
Replace "collision" in the infobox's "Cause" line with "allision" and the note; this is a good place to use the precise, correct term and offer an explanation
Delete "allision" in the infobox's "Damage" line so the bullet point becomes "Damage to Dali and its cargo".

This would reduce the use of "allision" to a single prominent instance, allowing the article to use the correct term and make the distinction without unduly taxing the reader. Thoughts? PRRfan (talk) 00:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Provided that the reader gets a definition of what "allision" means in context (I would make it a wikilink, there is a redirect in place already) I don't see any reason to not do this. CpX41 (talk) 00:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with that general approach, except that the (same?) note should be linked to an early use of "allision" in the main text. Not all readers read infoboxes, and many will come to the page having already read the word elsewhere, indeed in our own references. Davidships (talk) 10:54, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I like this idea; perhaps you can suggest where and how "allision" should be placed in the text. PRRfan (talk) 14:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I had some time to think about it, what would probably be the best option is to leave it in the infobox and replace it everywhere else in the text. On one hand, the text should be easy to understand to the average person, but on the other, this is not the Simple English Wikipedia. CpX41 (talk) 18:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One more thought: what if we use it just once in the main text, like so: "...at the time of the collision (in legal terms, allision^[a]), the ship was..." PRRfan (talk) 21:08, 11 April 2024 (UTC) PRRfan (talk) 21:08, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do like this more than my proposal, I am going to replace "allision" with "collision" in the timeline table. CpX41 (talk) 11:49, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done! Thanks. PRRfan (talk) 13:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Allision is not a legal term. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 18:12, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While not looking to resurrect a discussion about allision vs. collision, I don't think the wording is great – infobox is fine, but the article body says "in legal terms, allision" immediately followed by the footnote which describes it as "maritime terminology". There are two problems here – one of repetition/redundancy (why say something inline then effectively say it again in the footnote?) and one of contradiction (we're not being clear as to whether it's legal or maritime terminology – or, indeed, both). I propose that we remove the footnote from the article body and reword to "(in maritime terms, allision)" per this edit. Thoughts? MIDI (talk) 13:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Your point is well-taken. It seems "allision", while primarily used in the sphere of maritime law, is actually not strictly either a maritime nor a legal term. Google "allision" and most of the top hits are law firms explaining the term. Wikipedia's own definition begins "In maritime law..." But check Merriam-Webster and its definition says neither "legal" nor "maritime" ("1. obsolete : the action of dashing against or striking upon; 2: the running of one ship upon another ship that is stationary —distinguished from collision".) We might change the footnote to say "A crash between two moving vessels is a collision; a crash between a moving vessel and a stationary object, such as a bridge, is an allision. The distinction is most often useful in maritime law."

I'm not wedded to having the footnote in the body and the infobox, but if we removed it from the body, I think we'd still need to offer an explanation. This could be just a wikilink to Admiralty_law#Allision, but I don't find it objectionally redundant to have the note in two places. PRRfan (talk) 14:01, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've updated the note and body text; thanks. PRRfan (talk) 17:30, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Um, not based on the invalid discussion below but also not not based on it, I'm going to add this explanation to the note explaining the significance of allision to this article: "The distinction is important because maritime law treats a two-ship collision differently from a ship-on-bridge allision: in the latter, the moving vessel is generally presumed to be at fault.^[1] This usually makes it easier to prove liability, shortening post-crash legal wrangling.^[2]" PRRfan (talk) 19:34, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ This principle is dubbed "the Oregon Rule" (Parker, Bradley S. (2007). "Recent Developments in Admiralty and Maritime Law". Tort Trial & Insurance Practice Law Journal. 42 (2): 233–249. ISSN 1543-3234. "A Costly Lapse in Judgment". MarineLink. 2018-12-18. Retrieved 2024-05-10.). This rule has generally applied since 1895, when the U.S. Supreme Court decided a case involving one MV Oregon. "U.S. Reports: Oregon, The, 158 U.S. 186 (1895)". Library of Congress, Washington, D.C. 20540 USA. Retrieved 2024-05-10.
^ "Allision (Not Collision) Nautical Term Definition | Naylor Law". Law Offices of Charles D. Naylor. 2019-01-23. Retrieved 2024-05-10.

Change of reopening

The full river is expected now to be reopened on June 8th or 10th. “Metal detecting on steroids” Inside look at Key Bridge salvage operation as cruise ships return to (youtube.com) Salvage work continues on board the Dali and at Key Bridge wreckage site (youtube.com) The article needs to be updated to reflect this. (2607:FEA8:7221:F600:1932:5707:363F:3E18 (talk) 01:28, 25 May 2024 (UTC))[reply]

This is an encyclopedia. We'll wait until it happens. PRRfan (talk) 04:05, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Time to turn "Bridge replacement" section into its own article

The "Bridge replacement" section is nearing 1,000 words, so I'd say it's time to break it into its own article. (It will be well over a thousand words once we add an intro paragraph and infobox. I propose to move the text to "Francis Scott Key Bridge replacement", which is currently a redirect to this article. Once the new bridge gets its new name, we'll change the article's name to suit. PRRfan (talk) 18:34, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems a good idea. Presumably leaving a para with a "main" hatnote. - Davidships (talk) 22:32, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. PRRfan (talk) 02:55, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just adding my support. glman (talk) 14:12, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done (boldly); thanks. PRRfan (talk) 15:12, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I MOS-fixed your link to the new page, which syncs with what you did so it's blue. DMacks (talk) 17:57, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New BBC documentary

The BBC have anew documentary about the bridge's collapse, Why Bridges Collapse: The Baltimore Disaster, online at: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0025pbd

I'm not sure if it's available outside the UK (though you could use a VPN). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:18, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's the latest in a series of Why? programmes. It seems the main answer is that container ships have got much bigger, while the size of bridge piers and dolphins haven't kept pace. But there are other factors. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:27, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The video you (Pigsonthewing) link above states: "BBC iPlayer only works in the UK. Sorry, it’s due to rights issues." . . . . ~sad face~ —RCraig09 (talk) 17:22, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WMF should pay for my TV licence, so I can do more research. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha> tags or {{efn}} templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}} template or {{notelist}} template (see the help page).

[2] This principle is dubbed "the Oregon Rule" (Parker, Bradley S. (2007). "Recent Developments in Admiralty and Maritime Law". Tort Trial & Insurance Practice Law Journal. 42 (2): 233–249. ISSN 1543-3234. "A Costly Lapse in Judgment". MarineLink. 2018-12-18. Retrieved 2024-05-10.). This rule has generally applied since 1895, when the U.S. Supreme Court decided a case involving one MV Oregon. "U.S. Reports: Oregon, The, 158 U.S. 186 (1895)". Library of Congress, Washington, D.C. 20540 USA. Retrieved 2024-05-10.

[3] "Allision (Not Collision) Nautical Term Definition | Naylor Law". Law Offices of Charles D. Naylor. 2019-01-23. Retrieved 2024-05-10.

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