Talk:Frances Helen Prideaux

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 03:28, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

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Photograph of Frances Helen Prideaux taken by Frederick Hollyer.

• ... that in 1885 Frances Helen Prideaux (pictured) was the first woman to be chosen over male applicants for a job in a London hospital? Source: “At 27, she became the first woman to be given a London hospital post in open competition with men when she became house surgeon at Paddington Green Children’s Hospital.” link
  • ALT1: ... that Frances Helen Prideaux's (pictured) skill convinced Sir William Gull that women were intellectually capable of being doctors? Source: For Sir William Gull, who led the meeting to establish a fund in her memory, Prideaux "had vindicated the right of woman to take the highest position in a difficult and intellectual profession." link
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Protomelission

Created by Zeromonk (talk). Self-nominated at 09:13, 14 March 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Frances Helen Prideaux; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• I'll take this one. SusunW (talk) 14:53, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

• Created 13 March, nom 14 March - new enough; 2423 char - long enough; neutral; photo is distributable under Creative Commons 4.0 International; QPQ done. Hook 0: 136 char - under maximum; cited in the article with source immediately following. Hook 1: 180 char - under maximum; cited in the article with source immediately following. Issues: Neither her birth date nor death date are cited. Where did these come from? One year later, she passed is also missing a citation and In 1884, Prideaux obtained is not stated on pp 14-15 of Brock. (Note, it appears to be closely paraphrased from Hussey, but I note that The Pall Mall Budget says her 2nd degree was received in 1883, thus the first was obviously before? but the BMJ says they were received in 1884.) Reviewing copyvios, there is some close paraphrasing: "became a house surgeon at the Paddington Green Children's Hospital", "was made demonstrator of physiology and anatomy", "opposed women entering the field of medicine", "in an open competition with men", etc. As for the last statement, I am not sure what it means. Was there a competition that was open to both genders to vie for a job, or is it simply saying that she competed with male physicians for clients? This is problematic for both the article and hook 0. Hook 1 to me is the more interesting, but could be simplified without the quote. Maybe just end it by saying that "women were intellectually capable". (A query: Was she a physician? Almost all the sources say she was scheduled to take her MD exam when she died. Admittedly I have no clue what the British requirements are for someone to be able to practice.) Please ping me when you have worked through it. A very enjoyable read. I appreciate that you wrote about her and allowed me to learn her story. SusunW (talk) 16:10, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

• Thanks @SusunW:! Re: birthdate, several sources note that she died aged 27 and the RCP notes that she was 20 in 1878 so that is deduced - I can remove if you think more appropriate? Re: death date, most sources observe that she died four weeks after her appointment at Paddington, which was November 1885, and the BMJ article helpfully states the date she became ill and then the day of the week that she died (3am Sunday) - The Englishwoman's Review of Social and Industrial Questions: 1889 (now cited) also gives this as the specific day of death - I've cited this now! Have cited the general examination. The BMJ is a more reliable source than the Budget and other sources concur on 1884 as the date - more clearly cited now. Have reworded the paraphrased parts that you mentioned to be more clear and distinct from the sources. Hopefully the article on Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery clarifies how British medical degrees are noted - she was qualified! I've reworded both hooks based on your helpful feedback, thanks so much for the time you've taken to help me to polish this article :) Zeromonk (talk) 09:19, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

• Zeromonk sorry for the delay in responding, I was at the doctor's being released from treatment. What a great day! Definitely leave the dates, just citing them is fine. (Anyone capable of doing basic math(s) would arrive at the same figures, so you are fine with a deduction.) The changes seem fine to me and I appreciate your work to clarify the article. Hooks are much clearer now and actually I prefer hook 0 at this point, but they are both interesting. GTG SusunW (talk) 16:43, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

• @SusunW: much faster than I had expected or hoped, thanks - and more importantly, hurrah and congratulations for you very good news! Zeromonk (talk) 20:09, 15 March 2023 (UTC)