Talk:Flag of Florida/Archive2022/February

Origin and symbolism of saltire

this suffers from an excessively defensive tone

I improved the article a bit. The flag as it stands was approved by the voters in 1900. It seems Gov. Fleming was instumental in this, but the article makes it seem like he was solely responsible. I tried to improve the PoV in the article. Dominick 14:14, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I am deeply troubled by Dominick's attempt to cover-up the vile and racist record of Francis P. Fleming. I am going to assume good faith that you did not know one of Fleming's first acts as Governor of Florida was to rollback voting rights for African-Americans, signing into law poll taxes and literacy tests. Furthermore, Fleming had Florida's only African-American judge (James Dean of Monroe County) removed from the bench for the high crime of marrying a white man to a black woman. Fleming was a segregationist, and this should be noted in the Flag of Florida article, or if you do not wish to call him a segregationist, maybe we should cite his record as Governor instead. --H. CHENEY 02:43, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That is true, however, the flag has nothing to do with that. Since there are other historical basis for the red Saltire, and the reason given for the change is plausable, we should take the historical record at it's word. All I removed is the word segregationist, because it was not germaine to the flag, per se. Not all Cross Saltaire are racist emblems, for example St. Andrew's flag. Dominick 07:02, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Considering the history of Florida, and the political climate at the time, I don't think this was a Scottish influence. This was very clearly a symbol of longing for the antebellum South, racial divisions and all. I agree, we should try to accept their overt reasoning for adopting the flag. However, we also have a duty to report what the undertones were. --H. CHENEY 18:02, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have always been taught that it was indeed reminiscent of the Confederate flag. To say that it is "not widely held" is not backed or accurate. I have updated the language to be more accurate, if not definitive.Yahnatan 20:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Could the origin of the saltire (St. Andrew's Flag) in the Florida flag be in memory and honor of Florida's first territorial governor, Andrew Jackson? --Dulcimerist 05:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC) cool

No it could not. The flag of the state of Florida has three elements. The cross of St. Andrew incorporated into the flag has one and only one meaning. It is there to honor the Spanish heritage and origin's of the colony of La Florida. The cross of St. Andrew (in the form of the Burgundy Cross, a variant of the cross of St. Andrew) was the emblem of the Spanish empire from 1506-1783 or thereabouts. It flew over forts and missions and settlements in La Florida from it's beginning and most particularly in St. Augustine until the British period. Essentially the modern state flag of Florida is a streamlined version of that first Florida flag with the state seal emblazoned on it. All vestiges of the Confederacy have been removed from the state flag, it's great seal and all other state emblems. No further sanitation is needed. I have carefully read this article and the only mistakes it has at this point is that it leaves out many historical flags that either were flown over Florida or were used by Floridians or various governments that existed within Florida during it's history. All this speculation over what the elements of the flag of the state of Florida is pointless and born out of historical ignorance.

Cross is too dark

I grew up in Florida, and I remember the cross of Florida's flag as being red, not crimson. There is a distinct color difference between Florida's and Alabama's flag Rhatsa26X (talk) 16:35, 15 December 2014 (CST)

Unfortunately, when the current flag was legislated over a year ago, the specific shade of red was not included in the law. If I recall, it merely says red. But I concede my memory may not be perfect. In any case, flag makers usually make flags to fit the materials they happen to have. I will cite a good example. I have spent the last 27 years living in Rhode Island and just recently returned to Florida. I spent many years attempting to locate a legally made Rhode Island state flag. The law designing the flag of Rhode Island specifies a nearly square flag. If you google Rhode Island's state flag you will see that the official flag can be found on many web sites. But good luck finding any vendor who will sell you a correctly dimensioned flag. It does not exist. I contacted every commercial manufacturers of flags in the U.S. and could not find one that made a correct Rhode Island flag. They only make them in rectangles. In fact, with the possible exception of Ohio, all flag makers make all state flags in the same standard, cookie cutter shape. The problem is that the various state flags are a wide range of rectangles. Rhode Island is almost square as I said and Hawaii is a very long narrow rectangle. Flag makers only use a limited number of dies to color flags. They don't make their materials conform to the correct design of the flag but rather they manufacture flags with whatever materials they have on hand. They do this to cut costs. I would venture to say you would be hard pressed to find for sale more than half the flags correctly made. And yes, over time, they simply reduce their materials to make flags so you will eventually find only a handful of "nearly correct" colors used. Oh and yes I remember a slightly different flag when I lived in Florida in the 1970's.

Bourbons to Habsburgs

The caption for the Burgundian Saltire stated that it was the flag of the Spanish Bourbons. This is incorrect. It was the flag of the Spanish Habsburgs, starting with Philip I of Castile, grandson of Charles le Téméraire of Burgundy. The Spanish Bourbons were descended from Louis XIV of France. The Bourbons did use the flag, but only for about eighty years. Chegitz guevara 18:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

At 1700s Bourbons generalizes white flag with the Habsburg red cross.--Santos30 (talk) 21:26, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Any significance?

What is the significance of the "Flag of Saint Patrick" in this article? Is there a link to Florida? --HighKing (talk) 15:05, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Other than the obvious resemblance, which might be coincidental, I don't know that there is a link. SamEV (talk) 02:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

History

How come the article only has info on the modern Florida flag and no previous Florida flags? Emperor001 (talk) 04:43, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Red cross with white flag

From 1700s the Bourbons dinasty spread the white flag (Bourbons) with red cross of Burgundy for Spanish Armed Forces.

• Ponce de León and Pedro Menendez use the flag of Castilla and León at 1500s.

Catholic enciclopedia:"On 8 September Menendez landed, and amid the booming of artillery and the blast of trumpets the standard of Castile and Leon was unfurled"

• Cross of Burgundy is a Spanish military symbol.

Puerto Rico: a Quick Overview of the Island and its People:"The Spanish Army designed the ”Burgundy Cross Flag” and adopted it as their standard".

• From 1700s the Bourbons dinasty spread the white flag.

History of the Flag of the United States of America: "To the Bourbon marriage must be attributed the introduction of a white flag, bearing the royal arms, similar in effect to the French standard. The old one, however, was not entirely abolished ; and an order, dated Jan. 20, 1732"

--Santos30 (talk) 21:27, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Nonexistent banner of the Spanish empire

I an removing this. The reference cited does not support it. If that flag flew for France I don't know. But it never flew in Florida for Spain. There is no "flag of the Spanish empire". The cross was _part_ of some flags, but it was never, ever a flag by itself. There is no picture of one. There is none in any museum in any Spanish-speaking country. deisenbe (talk) 03:11, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

@FLA.101: the Florida Department of State (myflorida.com) is wrong too. Believe it or not, I have a Ph.D. in Spanish history. But I have better things to do with my time than work any more on this. Enjoy. deisenbe (talk) 18:14, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Quick question.

Isn't it supposed to be, "The design was approved by a popular referendum November 6, 1900," other than, "The design was approved by popular referendum November 6, 1900."? I think that's a typo, if not, please tell me. Thanks! TheFanGaming95 (talk) 02:31, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Oh, oops, I forgot to add "on" to, "The design was approved by a popular referendum November 6, 1900." TheFanGaming95 (talk) 02:35, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

The use of "a" is not correct. "On" is not wrong but I prefer it without. deisenbe (talk) 12:59, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Confederate Flag Ties

There's very little evidence that Florida's flag is tied in any way to the confederate flag. The one source included in this article is from a book where the the author basically throws Florida in the mix based on the timing of the change with no regard for any other context. Local historians are unable to make the same connection. Plus, that flag has ties going back to the 16th century. If there's not further evidence that section needs to be edited or removed. It's a little one sided. - Nemov (talk)

That racist and Confederate officer Governor Fleming added the X to honor Florida's Spanish heritage (the Spaniards themselves hadn't used that flag for centuries) and that any similarity to the Confederate flag is an unimportant coincidence, seems pretty far-fetched to me. The U.S. had just been at war with Spain (Spanish-American War, 1898). deisenbe (talk) 17:39, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

There were plenty of racists around in 1900, but why would he change the flag to something that isn't really a reminder of the confederacy? Essentially the only connection here is speculation. The St. Andrew's Cross flag had a connection to Florida before the Civil War. Either way, there's no evidence so far to make this connection other than speculation. - Nemov (talk) 23:55, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

It was a reminder of the Confederacy. deisenbe (talk) 11:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

That could be true, but the evidence is at best circumstantial. The only thing I've found written at the time is the flag when furled lacked color. In 1899, the state submitted to the electorate a vote on adding diagonal red bars. Unless some other evidence is presented the connection to the confederacy is pretty weak. In 1899, it would have been very easy for the state to justify honoring the South. - Nemov (talk) 12:49, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

A reminder. As editors we have to document what reliable research says has happened. In this case we have a handful of historians who disagree. Since that's the case we would need original research to help us. So far the only thing I have been able to find is speculation. The speculation could in fact be correct, but speculation isn't fact. Since that's the case this section has to remain neutral and not be presumptuous. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 13:55, 7 January 2022 (UTC)