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RFC: Image of male anal fisting

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of the discussion is to keep the image while seeking a better quality replacement, because Wikipedia is not censored, and editors who took time to give a reasoned explanation grounded in Wikipedia policies, guidelines and precedent mostly concluded that the image, despite being imperfect, is still encyclopedically useful to illustrate the other form of the article's topic (anal versus vaginal fisting), and perhaps to a lesser extent to illustrate the practice with both genders, and even as a partner vs. manual activity. Some editors would prefer a non-photographic illustration, but there were multiple objections to artsy, interpretive ones like the present image of the woman, versus medical-style diagrams; others would still prefer a photo. An argument for replacing the image does not equate to an argument for removing and not replacing it, especially when the expressed reasons to do so (when any were given) are contradicted by policy. Also, many !votes that appear at first glance to be in favor of removal, including some of the most vocal, amount in their details to quite unambiguous calls for replacement. There should be a different consensus discussion about proposed replacements. One comparable replacement was already suggested in the course of the debate, but lost in the shuffle. The idea that an article like this simply cannot be graphically illustrated at all is why we have a policy nicknamed WP:NOTCENSORED in the first place. Keeping the image satisfies WP:PERTINENCE and WP:PROFANE, also.

I'm doing a (non-admin) closure of this because the outcome is very clear from Wikipedia policy, despite emotions running high for some parties on both sides of the debate (and because I had time to kill, not wanting to be out and about on a night full of drunk drivers). I'm closing it a couple of days early, because the discussion entirely died out over a week ago, and even if it had not, the only way the outcome would be different is if policy radically changed suddenly and radically. Furthermore, an alternative image was proposed, making the debate borderline moot, and pointlessly delaying likely replacement of the image that no one really likes.

While the arguments for just removing the image are not generally unreasoned, and claims that removal=homophobia are unreasonable, the arguments in favor of inclusion are stronger and clearly reflect Wikipedia norms much better. I will go over every identifiable argument and explain how it factored. That the arguments to remove the image are all over the map, sometimes contradictory, and over the course of the debate sometimes abandoned is all highly significant. I've detailed all the clearly articulated debate points, even the trivial ones, and their applicability because I think this RFC may have good value as something to look back on for this article's progress and that of others when image flamewars pop up. PS: This closure is modeled on that of Talk:Gokkun#RFC on Image Inclusion, by Magog the Ogre (talk · contribs). Reading it, BTW, is actually of strong relevance to further discussion about using artistic interpretations instead of photographs especially in articles about sexuality topics.

Arguments for removing the image
  • Consensus of involved editors is against adding the image, and only one editor wants to keep adding it. (False and moot: Self-evidently not the case when broader attention is brought to bear, or the debate would have been very one-sided. Also not the only time debates of this sort have appeared here. Furthermore, the point of an RfC is to get noninvolved editor opinion. This RfC is a classic example of why WP:SNOWBALL is not policy and should not be cited early in a discussion.)
  • It is illogical that the article needs to be illustrated with a photograph of someone being fisted. (No consensus: Others strongly disagree, with multiple rationales based in policy, guidelines, precedent in similar articles, etc. Some would prefer a non-photographic replacement.)
  • A photographic fisting image will be too offensive to too many people. A.k.a. "It's disgusting! Deviant! Immoral!" (Policy against: WP:NOTCENSORED exists specifically to counter this very rationale. See also WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The problem is that many people are simply offended by the concept of fisting, depicted or not, and/or by visual depictions of sexuality at all even when not offended by text, and we cannot cater to either of these subsets of readers without harming the encyclopedic value of Wikipedia for everyone.)
  • Schools may block Wikipedia from classrooms because of this image. (Policy and common sense against: WP:NOTCENSORED doesn't make an exception for this eventuality, and even if it were an actionable concern, all images and other content that could ever offend some teacher or school administrator somewhere would be removable. In point of real-world fact, what actually happens is that school censorware already blocks this and other sex articles, so common sense is against this rationale, too.)
  • I actually showed images like this to teachers and it turned them away from Wikipedia. (Irrelevant and pointless: That's on you. It's like breaking a kid's nose on purpose in front of his parents on sign-up day to warn them that taking up your karate class has its risks.)
  • The government of Australia, or whatever other country, might block Wikipedia entirely for this image (Policy and common sense against: WP:NOTCENSORED applies again and does not recognize this as a valid exception. Side note: If that really happened, the political fallout would be massive in a democracy like Australia; meanwhile, in a totalitarian state, we expect WP to be blocked anyway, for its political, human rights, etc., articles.)
  • The image does not help convey any information or understanding not conveyed by the article text, and thus serves no purpose. (Consensus and guidelines against: Others strongly disagree, and provide multiple reasons why the image is helpful, even if not perfect; the controlling guidelines, per WP:NOTCENSORED, are WP:PERTINENCE and WP:PROFANE, and both appear to be satisfied.)
  • "I agree!" and other context-free "me too" posts. (Irrelevant: Per WP:AADD, WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY, m:WM:PAE, etc., one-liner !votes are generally not useful for gauging consensus.
  • The image is poor quality. (Consensus to replace but not remove: I don't see anyone at all claiming it's a great photo. But many disagree that it is so bad that it must be removed. WP:PERTINENCE suggests rejecting images that are essentially useless, not just unappealing or technically shoddy. Many, on both sides, felt it can be replaced with a better photographic image, and others felt that a cut-away diagram would actually be more useful.)
  • The image clearly depicts someone with a disease or rash, and may confuse readers. (No consensus: I don't see any strong support for this notion, though it could probably have been the best argument for removal, per WP:PERTINENCE, if this were certain. The problem is, it's not clearly a rash or disease, but easily could be razor burn from shaving the area, a very common practice. So, perhaps another argument for replacement, but not for bare removal.)
  • The fisting in the photo isn't clear enough. (No consensus: Some others disagreed, but most, who did not oppose all depiction of fisting, agreed that a better image should be sought, when they commented on the matter. Curiously, some seemed to feel it essentially wasn't graphic enough, effectively contradicting several others.)
  • The focus appears to be on an erect penis, not the article subject. And has distracting elements, like leatherwear. (No consensus: Others disagreed, feeling that the penis was simply being pulled up an away, and no one supported the "distracting leather" argument. Given that fisting of [one sort] seems to be a popular activity in the gay "leather men" scene, the presence of leatherwear in the photo being "distracting" rather than simply accurate is an iffy proposition.)
  • The non-photographic female illustration is simply sufficient. (Consensus against: Numerous objections to this claim were raised, on multiple grounds, and few seemed to hold this view, including some opponents of this image.)
  • The male image does not accurately portray fisting. (Common sense against: It's an actual photograph of anal fisting, whether it is enough of a close-up or not.)
  • Someone in favor of the picture has a personal connection to it. (Evidence against, and irrelevant: The photo came from Flickr, and nothing suggests that is is a photo of anyone in the debate or anyone known to anyone in the debate. That wouldn't preclude its use, anyway, it could just discount the !vote of the editor who had the hypothetical conflict of interest.)
  • Being in favor of the picture means someone is a big fan of fisting. (False and irrelevant. This is just self-evidently ad hominem nonsense, like being in favor of a picture of a zucchini at the Zucchini article means you must be obsessed with that vegetable.)
  • "It's an emergency, remove it now!" stuff, like multiple {{editprotected}} requests immediately after the RfC was opened. (Policy, guidelines and common sense against: See WP:CONSENSUS, WP:RFC, WP:DONTPANIC, WP:TEA, etc., etc.)
  • Adding the image is vandalism. (Policy disagrees: Does not qualify under WP:VANDAL. Accusations of vandalism when one simply disagrees about content or appropriateness assumes bad faith and is not civil.)
  • The image is too prurient – it is pervy masturbation fodder. (Policy and common sense against: WP:NOTCENSORED doesn't have an exception for images that someone may find erotic. We have no control as editors over this, and given the number of paraphilias out there, the same can be said of thousands of images in thousands of articles. An image depicting a sexual activity is by definition going to be sexy to some subset of people.)
  • The image should be replaced with something comparably informative but better, meanwhile this one should be removed until then. (No consensus: No solid policy rationale has been provided for this suggestion, which even the most vocal opponent of this image has verbally supported. The guiding policy here is simply WP:CONSENSUS on editorial agreement on encyclopedic value, since this suggestion does not propose censorship of any such image, just removal of this particular one, and there is clearly no consensus to remove the image.)
  • Children might see it, so it has to go. (Policy and common sense against: This is the other major reason that WP:NOTCENSORED is policy, because a large number of people want to censor everything about sex, death, other religions, etc., etc. As someone else pointed out, any child curious about this topic can simply Google it for endless pictures, so censoring it here wouldn't prevent minors from seeing such images.)
  • Some other pages that could have graphic illustrations don't, like Suicide and Abortion, so this shouldn't either. (Guidelines and precedent disagree: That is an obvious example of the WP:OTHERSTUFF fallacy, and thus generally irrelevant since WP:PERTINENCE applies to the article at hand and its specific content and context. To the extent it is a precedential issue, most articles on sexual topics are clearly illustrated, with images that various readers will be unhappy with.)
  • Remove, because entire article is poor quality. (Irrelevant: That simply does not compute, like "destroy my windshield because my car is crappy.")
  • This is symptomatic of a gay activism program to corrupt young minds and ruin WP's reputation. (Consensus against: Even the editor accused of homophobia doesn't go this far; see also WP:NOT#SOAPBOX).
  • Images (generally, not just this one) do not add meaning to the article. (Policy, consensus and common sense against, for reasons already given.)
  • The image is causing disruption. (Policy and guidelines against: WP:NOTCENSORED, WP:CONSENSUS, WP:RFC, WP:DE, etc., do not support such an interpretation. An editwar between two reverters is not disruptive, it's a WP:EDITWAR. An RFC is not disruption, it's WP:DISPUTE-resolution. Images don't cause disruption, editorial behavior does.)
  • There is nothing "ambiguous or mysterious" about fisting as described in the article, so get rid of the images. (Policy, guidelines, consensus, precedent and common sense all against: These are not image inclusion criteria, formally or informally, and if they were, most images would be removed from the encyclopedia.)
  • It's just a homemade image. (Ditto.)
Arguments for keeping the image
  • WP:NOTCENSORED is longstanding policy, and means what it says. (Policy agrees, obviously: It and the WP:PERTINENCE guideline it cites appear to be satisfied – in spirit, per WP:COMMONSENSE, as well as in letter – despite the fact that this image and any image on this topic are of course guaranteed to offend some readers.)
  • A male image is not more objectionable than a/the female one. (Common sense agrees: This is obvious.)
  • A male image is needed for balance (Guidelines and precedent agree: WP:PERTINENCE supports this as useful if not required, and practice in other human sexuality articles, e.g. Masturbation, strongly supports equal treatment, even separate sections, when particulars differ. And several strong arguments could be made against using only female images on a sexually explicit topic as form of obvious bias.)
  • Opposing the image is homophobic. (Common sense and guidelines disagree: No evidence of this; the active party in the photo is not visible and so not necessarily male to begin with, meanwhile repeated accusations of homophobia are ad hominem and incivil, as well as assumptive of bad faith, even when some WP:DICKish behavior has transpired.)
  • Opposing the image is just a personal preferences thing. (Common sense against: Strong evidence to the contrary on the part of specific individuals, such as the Australian anon's pro-sex comments while nonetheless opposing the image. While some opposition was clearly motivated by individual morality or aesthetics, but some other objections were based on image quality, public relations concerns and other things not relating to WP:IDONTLIKEIT.)
  • The image illustrates partner vs. masturbatory fisting, so is not redundant with the female image. (Consensus, common sense and precedent agree: This is obvious, and supports WP:PERTINENCE applying. This argument will be seen as moot by those would oppose any illustration of fisting at all, but policy and guidelines clearly contradict them.)
  • The image is more anatomically correct than the female drawing, which is a fantasy piece, so the photo should be kept even if the female one is not. (No consensus, and irrelevant: There's been little discussion of what is allegedly wrong with the female drawing, though no one has contradicted the assertions that it is anatomically flawed. This is one of at least four arguments for replacing the female image as well, because although WP:PERTINENCE does not require photographs, it does requires that an artistic interpretation be accurate. But that's another discussion, and keeping, removing or replacing the one image has nothing to do with that decision about the other.)
  • Distracting elements can be cropped out. (True: The license permits derivative works. Several objections to the image can be resolved simply by zooming in a bit.)
  • It's not our task to prevent people from masturbating. (Policy and consensus support: WP:NOT, generally. Even some of the most vocal opposition to the image agreed that sexual explicitness isn't the issue at all.)
  • The imperfect quality of the image makes it less not more erotic, anyway. (Common sense supports, but irrelevant.)
  • It demonstrates that the subject is actually anatomically possible, which not all readers would necessarily believe and which is not clear from artistic drawings. (Common sense supports: Obviously true, though mitigated by concerns that the image isn't clear enough and should be replaced.)
  • Anyone reading an article on this topic should expect to see clear, graphic images on this topic. (Policy, consensus and common sense support: Wikipedia is illustrated throughout and has a clear policy that it is not censored. Even the two most vocal proponents of this image being removed agreed that really it should be replaced, which essentially guts the already weak arguments to remove it. WP:PROFANE is clearly satisfied, and not a single party to the debate even suggested that it was being violated.)
  • Keep both images until replaced, as they are better than nothing despite their flaws. (Policy and guidelines support: This is the real question, with vocal opinions on both sides, but the controlling policies and guidelines strongly favor retaining the images, since there is no consensus that they are completely useless and not pertinent, only unsupported and well-contradicted assertions that either or both are. No guideline amounts to "remove controversial material" unless controversy is that the material violates a policy or major guideline, like WP:Verifiability or WP:Notability. If any thing, the drawing is less likely to survive than the photo because multiple parties, three I think, have questioned its accuracy.)
  • Articles on Kneeling, Standing, etc. are illustrated, so this one should be, too. (Borderline irrelevant, but precedent supports: This is largely another case of WP:OTHERSTUFF, yet clearly the rationale being responded to - a "remove the image because the text makes it obvious what is happening" proposition from several opposers - cannot be applied rationally to other articles. If it wouldn't make sense at Kneeling it doesn't here. The fact that the topic has something to do with sex doesn't bypass normal Wikipedian logic.)


Happy new year! — SMcCandish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 08:03, 1 January 2012 (UTC)


Full debate

{{rfc|soc|rfcid=1BD8528}} A user keeps adding this picture on despite the fact that most editors in this discussion are requesting to remove it. I request editors to give their input on the issue. Thanks --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 07:36, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does it seem totally illogical that a photograph depicting some dude getting fisted is neccessary to illustrate this article when we have far better material available that won't give schools across the world an excuse to ban wiki from classrooms? Being a horndog I have ALWAYS supported the uncensored wiki, but even by Australian ACMA ratings systems if / when the filter comes in here, that image is that excessive that it'd definitely get Wiki b& for all of us.

Does it help convey more information than the article already does? No. Is it neccessary or essential to provide an informative element in and of itself? No. Does it in any way enhance the understanding of the act beyond what the words of the article does? No.

So, I submit that this image serves absolutely no purpose and would ask that it be removed. 124.179.19.254 (talk) 11:28, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree 100 % ! Sperner (talk) 20:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

The male image is no more objectionable than the female one, which compounds the depiction with onanism and isn't even anatomically correct. -- 2.29.162.88 (talk · contribs) 17:04, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

I have been trying to remove an image of a man getting fisted. I have a few objections regarding the image:
1. The image is horrendous, it's a guy with some rash all over his body, it seems like a person with some kind of disease. This might be POV but in my opinion, nothing pleasant about that picture from the aesthetic view.
2.The image is not a clear depiction of fisting, the bottom of the image shows the part of an arm with gloves, and the focus of the image is on his erected penis and scrotum.
My main objection with this picture is that is not suitable for the article on the fact that it doesn't portray it accurately and to a degree is not aesthetically pleasant. Furthermore, there is already a very nice illustration by user Seedfeeder which illustrates the article perfectly. Thanks --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 21:43, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
You want to provide a new picture then? How does it not accurately describe fisting? CTJF83 21:58, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
That is my point, there is no need for anymore pictures suitable for an encyclopedia. The woman fisting herself does the job perfectly. Is that you in the picture? Or do you have any relation to that picture? If so, then your opinion might be biased. --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 22:12, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Shit no! I found it on Flickr. It is suitable as an illustration of anal fisting, the woman is vaginal fisting. CTJF83 22:33, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
stopI am going to keep removing that image. Any more additions will be acknowledge as a form of vandalism. The consensus of the few involved editors is to remove the picture. Please respect that. Thanks --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 07:32, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Go for reporting it as vandalism, while you're at it, why don't you actually read WP:VAND and specifically the 3rd one down here. Seems to me one other established user reverted you, and you're raising your point on an IP and rare user. You'll get a WP:3RR for reverting again. So, leave the pic alone, until you have an actual consensus to remove it. So, you're reason for removing is basically WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The only reason you are giving for its removal all 100% your opinion. What policy reason do you have to remove it? And that so called rash looks like razor burn to me. CTJF83 12:55, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
You can read me all the WPs you want. We will see what the other editors think. In the meantime why don't you ask someone to do some fisting on yourself and take a much better picture and post it so we get rid of this horrendous one? --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 16:03, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
The opinion that the image is "horrendous" and "nothing pleasant...from the aesthetic point of view" shouldn't necessarily disqualify the image. If anything, it diminishes the erotic effect -- people aren't going to view the image as masturbation material as much as they would most images from professional fisting porn. That "the image is not a clear depiction of fisting" and "the focus of the image is on his erected penis and scrotum" is both true and false. It is not clear in the sense that the bottom of the image is cropped to the point where it is not provable that the inserted object is someone's gloved hand. I would dispute, however, that the focus is the erect penis (it could be that the subject's hand is merely holding his penis in such a way as to lift the scrotum, making the insertion more visible). The image of the female at the top of the article is "very nice" but is not complete because it does not depict anal fisting. This image is presented for completeness and balance. Is there a better image out there? Probably (others have been added and removed over the years for various reasons). Could one be created, as the female one was? Certainly. Should this one be removed? Not for the reasons cited so far. HalJor (talk) 16:39, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Since the two of you are homosexuals as shown in your userpages I believe your opinion on fisting might be biased to begin with. There is nothing wrong with wanting to get rid of a low quality and unpleasant picture for a much better one. Regarding your comment on "masturbation material" what exactly do you mean? There is nothing wrong with a person masturbating to an image in Wikipedia, that is the least of my concerns. My belief is that there is already an excellent picture that illustrates fisting and that is enough, should an editor want to add an anal fisting picture, then go ahead. All I think is that it should be at least a picture that has some good focus and at least is the image of an individual without some kind of disease (as the one in the current image). I mean, don't you think Wikipedia readers deserve better than that? --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 16:55, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
I agree it's not a great picture, a Seedfeeder image to match the other would be better, if indeed an image is needed at all. (The article is also in terrible shape.) Of course the existing image could be cropped. Rich Farmbrough, 21:46, 2 December 2011 (UTC).
How fucking dare you, Camilo, bring out the homophobia. First of all I see nothing on HalJor's page that says he is gay, you can support gay marriage and be straight. You're accusation that because I'm gay, I'm biased towards fisting is offensive. Second, anal fisting can be done by anyone, not just gays. And your comment "In the meantime why don't you ask someone to do some fisting on yourself and take a much better picture and post it so we get rid of this horrendous one?" is not only totally out of line but offensive. So grow the fuck up and act like an adult. You don't see me throwing out racial accusations, do you. CTJF83 22:33, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Rich, if you can provide a seedfeeder image, that would be great. CTJF83 22:39, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Why would you be offended? There would be nothing wrong if you like getting fisted, this is the fisting article after all. I was actually suggesting that you would provide a picture which at least would be less repugnant than the current one that's all. Don't be a drama queen. It was in good faith --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 00:19, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
It's ignorant to assume because I'm Gay I like fisting and I'm biased towards a Pic. I assume you have an asshole, you take a Pic. Would you be offended IF I said your Colombian your opinion doesn't count, and you should get back to the coffee bean fields? CTJF83 01:32, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
First off don't attack me personally because I won't be the one blocking you. Second, I can careless if you want to make any racial comments towards me I will focus my argument on the basics. The picture is a bad and unpleasant one. The article already has one, and as it is evident some people agree with me. Also, if you don't practice fisting then why are you trying to push that picture on the article if is not something that you even seem to have a personal interest on?. Fisting is only good when it's someone else? That's hypocritical you know. --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 02:16, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
again your only reason is wp:idontlikeit CTJF83 02:49, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
No...you don't like it, you just like to watch it lol. --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 03:08, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
Camilo, your comments are way out of line and, in my view, risk a block for personal attacks.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:26, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I have no strong opinion about the image in contention, but the other image should be removed because it is worse. It doesn't tell me anything about fisting, it just tells me what happens if you put indesign and a straight male virgin in the same room. And how long is that woman's left thigh? --FormerIP (talk) 01:39, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Can someone please remove this disgusting and offensive image? How could anyone possibly think this is appropriate. Children use this site for gods sake!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.154.17.166 (talk) 01::42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

read wp:notcensored CTJF83 02:49, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

There is also a page on suicide, but you don't see a photo of someone with their head blown off with a shotgun, or a baby after it was aborted on the abortion page. Fisting is also just as repulsive and really is not significant to warrant this. What kind of sick deviant would let someone do this? Disturbing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.154.17.166 (talk) 03:01, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I love the child excuse what child will look up fisting and if they did and didn't find a picture here they would google it CTJF83 05:01, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
of course it's homemade you don't fist at the mall...are you also proposing the top picture be deleted or just this 1 because it's a guy. I have no idea what your 2nd part means. CTJF83 05:04, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Delete As per stated above. --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 05:51, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Remove image. This is not one of those cases where an image is very helpful, and it has some distracting elements (the leather, for instance). Also, the dude has a skin issue, which is not pleasing to the eye, and for all I know he has just a finger or nothing at all up his ass. BTW, Camilo Sanchez, it seems you have refrained making offensive comments and easy assumptions about gays and about editors; keep it up please. Drmies (talk) 20:15, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
    • How about this then? No rash, you can see the fist inserted. CTJF83 20:25, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
      • I can't see that image. And even if it were beautiful, I don't see what it might add. There already is an image, so bland that it could never be accused of being pornographic, and I don't see why we need an image for the other orifice. Drmies (talk) 20:37, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
        • Why not? Who is to say vaginal fisting is more prevalent or notable than anal fisting? CTJF83 20:49, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
          • Because I have to sign in, apparently. And I didn't say anything about more notable. I gave you my rationale; be happy or unhappy with it, I don't care. BTW, my kid is sitting next to me on the couch and she caught a glimpse already; I guess I need to rotate the screen and then hit save. ;) Seriously, do we need the pic on this talk page? Drmies (talk) 22:52, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Remove image, as above. bobrayner (talk) 20:24, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Remove image. I don't see how it's necessary or useful. Nor does it matter whether we illustrate vaginal or anal fisting. This isn't an equal rights page. Frankly, I don't think we need any images, but if we have to have one, I'd prefer it be more mannequin-like than real. I also favor removing the image from this page - a link would suffice.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:59, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Speedy/Snow remove image - I don't think that consensus gets much clearer than this. The image clearly has no point and no reason whatsoever to be included. The person edit warring to keep this unwarranted image in should be ashamed of themselves! Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 23:28, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
  • delete I do not absolutely object to a real picture, but If we are going to have one, I believe we can possibly find one more appropriate. Gaijin42 (talk) 01:58, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Retain the image. Since there are so many delete votes without any proper rationale, I thought I should come off the fence. I don't think the picture is brilliant and I would be perfectly content with an article without any illustration. However, I am sick to death of photographs being deleted from sexual practice articles in favour of juvenile, sexist, idealised computer-aided drawings of the practice in question. If I am going to see some fisting on the page, I would much prefer confidence that I am seeing it as it really is, rather than having to experience the dull ache of cartoon porn. --FormerIP (talk) 02:14, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
You are an example of how my request has been misunderstood to begin with. The problem is not what is in the image, the problem is that the image is a bad one. If you provide a less disgusting fisting picture I would be happy with it. Is it too much to ask for a picture of a healthy individual? Why do we have to give readers an image of an unhealthy and disgusting male with a bad focused and unclear picture when there is so much material out there that is much better and pleasant to the eye. --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 17:53, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
I already suggested http://www.flickr.com/photos/12485646@N03/5043254493/ CTJF83 02:37, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Remove – Entire article is of questionable notability. There also appears to be an agenda here, being pushed, often through tag-team and uncivil retorts, on this talk page. Wiki seems to turn more into 4chan and less from an encyclopedia through the manipulation of "not censored" rhetoric, each day. I'm waiting for a photo of a "sheep shagger" to appear on Welsh or Scottish article, under the guise of "notability". Some editors here have serious pro-gay COI/POV issues and need to step back, especially given that this is supposedly a heterosexual activity also and straight people are being accused of "homophobia" out of turn. Why is the solo female fister a cartoon, and the male fister a photo, for a start? Not very neutral. Why does there even need to be a photo, when all the article needs is a description – I mean, it's hardly rocket science, and that guy hardly has a "rocket" worth shouting about? You don't need a photo on how to boil eggs, so why one here? Again, it's anti-Wiki content that brings the entire project into disrepute with regards to making it less accessible to kids, more agenda/politically motivated, more pornographic, less educational, detrimental to every other article/contributor who wants to see Wiki develop. Sadly, it is forced issues like this that lead to conflicts regarding discrimination. Gays complaining about homophobia if the photo is removed are hypocrites, when they themselves use "not censored" as an excuse to discriminate against younger readers. Age discrimination is no less prevalent than sexuality discrimination. Photos such as this are what lead to the Foundation considering an "image filter" recently. I'm pro-LGB (-T) but I also believe in "behind closed doors". And I disagree with anyone who says kids won't look it up. When I was young kids looked "dirty words" up in the dictionary. Now the internet is here, and images like this only serve to corrupt young minds. Let's put it this way: because of "no legal threats", no LGBT members stand a chance of forcing a legal discrimination matter out of this. COPPA stands a better chance, as child protection is of far greater importance than censorship, where there is limited parental control. WikiKamaSutra anyone? Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 02:26, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Weak remove I much prefer artwork to photographs for illustrations of sexual acts (as opposed to body parts) - drawings make the page feel more like sex education than porn (which can help in its acceptance and functioning as an educational page). The current main illustration does an excellent job of giving the reader an instant understanding of what's being discussed and I don't see what the photo adds. That said, the photo is a lot clearer than some photographic "illustrations" I've seen added to pages. --Simon Speed (talk) 02:43, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
  1. Oppose rationale provided to remove because the image is "disturbing"/"there are children"/the absurd statement that "Entire article is of questionable notability."
  2. Replace image with this one: 300px Switching position to Keep/retain per comments below. Although I have found this image as well neither of these show a male or anal fisting. I have tried looking in related/broader categories to see if another fisting image was uploaded but not specifically categorized as well as checked Flickr, but neither yielded additional results. In the meantime this picture will have to suffice.AerobicFox (talk) 21:29, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
  3. Support users exercising more caution in how they form their arguments and respond to others so as to not needlessly offend/distract discussion.AerobicFox (talk) 05:08, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
I think that image is much better. Also, the issue of the image being offensive is in my opinion not the problem here. To me it comes down to if we can provide a reasonable better image then the article improves too. I would apply that principle to any article. --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 06:35, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
That's another vaginal fisting, why do we need two of those? CTJF83 14:35, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
That image could make a good replacement for the vaginal fisting drawing (although as it's much closer up there is less context, which is probably less desirable for a lead image). It doesn't show anal fisting though, so doesn't illustrate the same thing the current picture does. Thryduulf (talk) 15:10, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep, pending we have one female recipient, and one male recipient. One masturbatory and vaginal, and one as part of intercourse and anal. Diagrams showing better context are more desirable, as is diversity of participants approaching the real human diversity. Until a better male fisting intercourse image comes along; or a female intercourse and male masturbation image comes along; use this one. Fifelfoo (talk) 09:26, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Remove Images do not add meaning to the article. Gerardw (talk) 20:07, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep until we find a better image. This one isn't perfect but it is good enough and adds significantly to the article, by simple virtue of being a photograph it adds more to the article that the drawing can do. Particularly it illustrates what the subject is precisely far more than text can and it shows that it does actually exist and is anatomically possible. Thryduulf (talk) 07:58, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Remove, as graphics does its job perfectly. Actually I can't get how this (or any other possible) photo can be informative or adding to article - the textual description does its job. At the same time, the image should be kept in Wikimedia, so that everybody, who couldn't understand the textual description can go there and have their step-by-step guide if that is so much desired. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 08:47, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
    • Actually, graphics do not do the job perfectly - they do not show it is anatomically possible (cf File:Autocunnilingus.jpg), not that people actually do it. That the textual description does the job is false for the same reason, and this image is not a step-by-step guide nor is it part of one. Indeed by saying it should be kept on commons so that people can see it shows you feel it does have value that the text doesn't. Would you care to advance a reason that is actually based on fact rather than not liking it? Thryduulf (talk) 13:06, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
      • What he says is not false; I argued the same thing above. If you were performing heart surgery, you'd need a diagram of a heart to succeed. But sticking your hand up someone's ass is not "complicated" – one hole, one chute, "in, out, shake it all about", the rectum doesn't divert, lead off elsewhere, it's past the sphincter and turn left at the kidneys then straight up the colon until you reach the chocolate factory. The photos and diagrams do not show anything anatomical either, really, an external diagram is not "reliable" in itself, a cross-sectional digram detailing internal "fit" would be more appropriate, such as File:Digital rectal exam nci-vol-7136-300.jpg gives. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 22:24, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep. It's not like the image is on an article about bunnies or something. If the image makes you uncomfortable, then just don't browse this particular article. Simple as that. Majora4 (talk) 01:00, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Remove. The first comment by the Australian IP editor is right on the money. - Dank (push to talk) 18:29, 19 December 2011 (UTC) The one that starts out "Is it just me" - Dank (push to talk)
  • Remove - It's not about whether I the image is appropriate or not. It's about what it does to the article - and if this article is getting multiple editors - ips etc objecting to it - then maybe its time we let the image go, and find a new image that won't cause disruption. That is what this image has been causing, and frankly enough is enough. Images like this are ones that usually put people off the project ~ had experience with showing articles to teachers didn't go too well... Thank you, -- MST☆R (Merry Christmas!) 13:10, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
    • It's called homophobia, and that's hardly a reason to remove an illustrative image. CTJF83 19:06, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
      • Let me tell you something, CTJF83, I have not one thing against the LGBT community - they are Wonderful people and I support equality. So don't you even think about accusing me of something totally repugnant and dead-wrong. Continue it, you'll see your own section at WP:ANI. -- MST☆R (Merry Christmas!) 01:40, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
        • I wasn't accusing you of it...I was saying in general, and if you look at the article history, you'll see plenty of it from User:Brucejenner CTJF83 01:51, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
          • Oh right - It's just a coincidence that it is under my removal ~ and it implies that I have those type of views when, sorry to rain on anyone's parade, I actually don't. I think you could have taken a more constructive less insulting approach to my simple comment, that was asking for this image to be removed because it has caused disruption. I have no idea, and still don't if the person in the image identifies to straight or gay - if this was a female we were talking about, yes we still would be having a discussion, and yes I'd still vote for its removal- if it has caused disruption to this length. -- MST☆R (Merry Christmas!) 01:58, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep the image as it is more informative, more accurate and more representative than the drawing of the woman (which may as well be kept too, as it's better than nothing). Angr (talk) 07:37, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Remove (and File:Wiki-fisting.png) as distracting, not useful (seriously, there is nothing ambiguous or mysterious in "activity that involves inserting a hand into the vagina or rectum.", keep File:Silentduck.jpg) Bulwersator (talk) 07:59, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
    • There is nothing "ambiguous or mysterious" in "a human position in which the weight is distributed on the knees and feet on a surface close to horizontal." so by your logic the kneeling article should not be illustrated. Indeed that activity is significantly less likely to have people who believe it is anatomically possible and/or that people actually do it. Ditto the articles about standing, jumping, running, etc Thryduulf (talk) 11:12, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
A valid point, although the picture in the standing article made me laugh out loud, which is probably not a good thing. --FormerIP (talk) 12:00, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
I didn't laugh at the standing image, but I agree it's not very good so I've boldly replaced it with a better one. It's still not perfect, so I started a discussion about it at Talk:Standing#Images. Please comment there. Thryduulf (talk) 00:20, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Another horrible rationale from the opposers. By your logic we should get rid of bus, chair, and cup, along with tens or hundreds of thousands of other pics. Note to closing admin, look at the reasoning of the opposers, most are very poor, like the above or WP:IDONTLIKEIT CTJF83 12:40, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Deliberate break

I started the discussion regarding this image and I would like to clarify a few things so we can speedily reach consensus.

  1. . My original request was to remove the image because it is a bad picture ( a man with an unpleasant rash plus the pic is not well focused, our readers deserve better).
  2. . I am not objecting the contents of the current picture, I will be happy with a more pleasant picture of at least a healthy individual, a few ones have been proposed and I am fine with them.
  3. . The objection to the contents of the current image should not be the reason why the image should be removed. This is the fisting article and a reader should expect an image on the topic.
  4. . The discussion is turning into a gay vs straight kind of thing. This is an open project so everyone is welcome to put their own fisting pics if you like, all I am saying is that at least it should be a pic that you look at and don't feel so grossed out like the current one. In my opinion it makes no difference if it is in the ass or a vagina, fisting is more about the fist than the orifice. You could get fisted in your mouth for all i care, but the bottom line should be just to have one or two pics, of good quality, nice focus and at least a healthy skin.

Thanks --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 06:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from barts1a

{{editprotected}} Could someone please remove the image currently in discussion above at least while the discussion is going on please? Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 23:36, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

 Not done. When you ignore the "I don't like it", the accusations of homophobia, ad hominems ("should be ashamed of themselves") and the "per aboves" and look at the actual comments, there is no clear consensus that the image should be removed. There is discussion about whether it is a good illustration for the topic or not (which is what the discussion should be about), but there is no consensus either way yet. As Wikipedia is not censored, there is no more reason to remove this image pending consensus than any other image. Thryduulf (talk) 00:43, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Reactivating request. It seems to me that consensus of the RfC is to remove the image. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 04:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Not done: Please wait until the RFC is actually closed by an uninvolved party. Anomie⚔ 12:42, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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