Talk:Fisting/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Citations

Why is there a Citation Needed tag for: "Fisting has been performed on (and by) both men and women; gay, straight and otherwise."

This is pretty much common knowledge. Ever hear of the Romans? pjh3000 (talk) 20:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, common flaw in policy perhaps? Biofase ^flame| stalk  04:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the {{Fact}} tag is on the next sentence about the three main techniques that have developed. Surely, one of the sources under References can supply something for that. Perhaps there is something in The Intelligent Man’s Guide or one of the other works? I’m not familiar with the sources and so cannot suggest which one might be able to provide a useful footnote. — SpikeToronto (talk) 07:03, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Some fistees also enjoy deeper penetration, in which the hand or hands are inserted into the sigmoid colon and large intestine, with the most experienced sometimes being able to accommodate the arm or arms all the way up to the shoulder. This statement is probably the most ridiculously dubious I have ever come across in this type of article. We're talking about human beings here, not ruminants. There is no fricking way you can insert a human arm up to the shoulder up another human's arsehole (without killing them). I tend to think that this was put in as a hoax - can anyone actually cite this, or it's going to get the chop! — JulesVerne (talk) 16:48, 07 December 2009 (GMT)

It is fairly common and you can even find it online. Try searching for "Dorian fisting" for female-to-male. You can see male-to-male (definitely not my thing) here. Unfortunately male-to-female or female-to-female havn't appeared on the internet AFAIK except in erotic stories and artwork. DinDraithou (talk) 17:12, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, you could find photos and videos of such deep fisting pretty easily online should you wish. --feline1 (talk) 18:54, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I would still like a non porn-site citation (the world of porn is often "exaggerated"). From a medical/anatomical standpoint, it would seem difficult or dangerous. Fribbler (talk) 01:03, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

You say "porn". That's not what I said. Again, watch the sample movie [here. DinDraithou (talk) 01:13, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok. Watched it. That's clearly a porn site. Not really a reliable source. I'd prefer a newspaper article, or a journal article saying that fisting occurs to shoulder level. "Internet videos" are often aided by special effects and I'm still not sure such extensive insertion is possible. Can you dig anything up? Fribbler (talk) 01:19, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think I'm going to bother, or need to. Go ask a doctor. DinDraithou (talk) 01:43, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Well no, you don't need to find a ref, but I was hoping for some help since you know more about it than I. We've all seen the a&e cases of object insertion etc., but I can't believe an object a full metre in length and 10cm in diameter can enter the colon of a person with normal anatomy. Fribbler (talk) 12:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Having seen videos on the internet that have girls having sex with abnormally large penises, 20"+, with the caveat of "oops, in these frames you can see the performers /actual/ penis, not the latex/silicone attachment everyone's trying very hard to pretend is their penis", I'm going to say "not a reliable source". In the video I saw there, what was described as "armpit-deep" was realistically a couple of inches beyond the elbow, "aided" by the momentum of shoulders flexing in follow through to give the appearance of something much deeper. A reliable source would be an objective text, preferably medical. Without an objective citation that it can be done, I'm not convinced. Achromatic (talk) 17:45, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

In a sigmoidoscopy, the rigid “sigmoidoscope is advanced, usually as far up as the sigmoid colon or descending colon.” (“Sigmoidoscopy,” Encylopedia. MedlinePlus. (Retrieved 2009-12-09.))

Also, remember that the entire large intestine — from the cecum to the anus — is flexible; it is not rigid. The poor medical intern tasked with performing a digital disimpaction may, on rare occasion — in an examination under anesthetic — have to insert himself/herself as far as the sigmoid colon. — SpikeToronto 20:05, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

A rigid sigmoidoscope is usually just under 13mm in diameter, its not an arm. And in terms of digital disimpaction, the sigmoid colon is a maximun of 15-20cm from the anus. Shoulder depth penetration seems to be a figment of pornography. Fribbler (talk) 20:21, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. Just beacause I can go online and see 'genuine photos' of men with supposedly 15 inch penises, it doesn't make it real. There may be a tiny number of men who actually fit these dimensions, but in reality, photoshopping of the images of normal porn actors is rampant, to the point where there would be no reliable case for using porn sites to cite a wikipedia article on penis size. Even if the colon and intestines are flexible, human arms only bend in two places (excluding the shoulder). I find it improbable to the point of impossibility that you could insert an arm to shoulder depth up someone's backside without causing serious injury or death. For goodness sake - it's like something out of American Psycho. The editor who entered that line must be chuckling to himself. JulesVerne (talk) 09:41, 10 December 2009 (GMT)

Why point specifically to GLBT?

What exactly does this have to do with WikiProject LGBT studies? Associating fisting specifically with that is kind of offensive. Anal sex I can see, but fisting? That seems to cross a line. Unless there are studies to back up the idea that gays and/or lesbians are the predominant practitioners, it's a blind and somewhat prejudiced assumption. --Mattbrown04 (talk) 02:43, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Most gay men dont fist..but most "fisters" are gay men.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.255.46.89 (talk) 03:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Hmm...this reliable source says that "The practice of fisting is a form of sexual activity confined primarily to the homosexual community."[1]

That ref is dated 1983, and I know several straight couples who would debate that statement. HalJor (talk) 02:53, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with HalJor. While the source may have been reliable almost 30 years ago when it was published, the sexual practices of heterosexuals have changed dramatically in the ensuing three decades. One only has to look at the dramatic growth in the hetero porn industry as prima facie evidence of the sexual liberation/awakening of the straight side of Kinsey’s (in)famous scale. — SpikeToronto 05:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, I didn't realize the date of the publication. In any case, I would bet that most fisting is done by the porn community. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:52, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I think a study would find that there are more heterosexual couples who engage in anal sex, or who engage in fisting than there are gay people who do so. Homosexuality is not about a particular sex act, but about people of the same sex who love one another and want to share their lives together. Atom (talk) 22:01, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Why the hell

are editors using a still-animated pic for illustrations of this sexual act? Is it that bad of a taboo that it cannot be shown graphically? I thought Wikipedia was uncensored. LaRouxEMP (talk) 12:41, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

The photograph that was removed did not show anything that was immediately and obviously connected to fisting. It merely showed the two orifices of a female photographic subject that may or may not have been connected to the subject of this article. Also, the drawing currently used conveys the topic well and should only be replaced if the replacement improves the encyclopedia reader’s understanding of the topic. Greater “graphicness” is not necessarily an improvement. — SpikeToronto 18:00, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

"Techniques"

Needs work.  TyrS  chatties  02:08, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

So, do the work! Drive-by application of templates, rather than rolling up your sleeves, dusting off your keyboard, and getting down to writing doesn’t really help. — SpikeToronto 06:15, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

On re-reading the above, I realize that it sounds rather peevish. I did not intend that. Let me put it another way: When you say, “Needs work,” what would you like to see done to the section? Would you feel confident about improving the section yourself? Perhaps drafting a new version in your userspace for review and eventual incorporation? Thanks! — SpikeToronto 06:51, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Very, very lopsided presentation

Currently the focus is almost exclusively on women doing vaginal fisting, with an extensive list of porn actresses and no mention or illustration of men self-fisting or getting fisted. Please do not remove the Unbalanced box without discussion here.  TyrS  chatties  02:22, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

The Unbalanced template has been incorrectly applied. That template and its application are subsumed by one of Wikipedia’s core policies: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view (shortcut → WP:NPOV). Thus, {{Unbalanced}} is used in those instances where one suspects an intention motivated by mala fides. I do not believe that there was ever such an animus with this wikiarticle. Rather, I think that no one has yet contributed the male-as-fistee viewpoint/perspective. Nor has anyone added such gay porn fisting luminaries as the glorious Ashley Ryder. But, that doesn’t mean that their absence from the article is a result of undue weight having been intentionally given to the female-as-fistee viewpoint/perspective at the expense of the male-as-fistee viewpoint/perspective. Rather, it is just that the article currently lacks sufficient breadth. Some form of section expansion template might have been more appropriate.

I do agree, TyrS, that you have hit upon something that this article lacks and that is the male-as-fistee perspective. If you have a yen to see it added, why not write up such a section? It would certainly lend greater breadth to the article. (But, can you imagine the edit war that would ensue if there were any such images added to article?! Sheesh!) — SpikeToronto 06:36, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Errrrrr, why do we even have a list of porn actors/actresses that have done fisting at some point in their carreer. That's not encyclopedic. We should include only people that have secondary sources mentioning that the person is notable in the field of fisting due to some specific reason. Currently, there is no such a source in the article, so we should remove the whole section. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:02, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

actresses / models

Please add Aria Giovanni to section "People noted to have engaged in fisting". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.112.249.25 (talk) 07:57, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Done. I've seen a scene, probably the one you have, but we'll need a source for it. When I created the section back in 2009 I sourced every performer in one way or another, but now we have all these who haven't been. And it's a shame O-Pearl's article was deleted. I argued for keeping it but there were too many votes against. Maybe it could be created again but she is no longer active after having her baby, in 2008 I think. I loved that enormous pierced cunt, a work of art. DinDraithou (talk) 23:14, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I didn't create her original article, btw. DinDraithou (talk) 23:25, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I question whether this section is even worth keeping, as it seems to violate several principles of WP:LISTCRUFT. In particular:

• Many of the entries are not cited or themselves notable (they don't have their own articles). Non-notable people cannot really be "people noted to have engaged in fisting", especially if their mention is unsourced.

• The list may be essentially unlimited, if non-notable people can be included.

• So far, the list looks entirely female. If men are included, the list would appear to be endless. There are studios devoted to (or at least significant producers of) fisting films, and their list of relevant works would be longer than this article itself. List the individual performers, and, well, you see my point.

If we really want to go this route, I might suggest focusing on the notable studios or notable films, with proper citations. HalJor (talk) 00:16, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

The ones I added all have/had articles. Remove those who don't if you would like. I almost did but haven't investigated them. Giovanni I'm sure we can source easily enough, but my computer is messed up and I'm using someone else's. DinDraithou (talk) 00:35, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

My original title for the section was "In pornography" I think. DinDraithou (talk) 00:36, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the right ones. O-Pearl we should keep, since she is sourced, had an article, and might again when I have a chance to do the research. DinDraithou (talk) 01:01, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Plus I'm not interested in men so I'm not going to add any. If any male performers have articles here then go ahead if that's your thing. DinDraithou (talk) 01:07, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Request for photographs???

I'm curious as to why a couple of entries - fisting and creampie(sex act) - have a request for photographs associated to the article in the discussion tab.

Yet from what I saw in the creampie - there is an ongoing battle/argument over having photographs. When photos are uploaded they're deleted.

Why have this "request for photographs" on entries about explicit sexual acts?

Rayngrant (talk) 22:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)Ray Grant

Ever heard of trolls? 193.157.242.51 (talk) 16:22, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

In Italian culture, the current third picture is the "fig" sign, and considered incredibly obscene. It is referenced in Dante's Inferno. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.156.202 (talk) 02:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

And? Biofase ^flame| stalk  04:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The drama that ensues with depictions of extreme sex acts is usually well over the top, but most come from the batshit insane OMGCENSOREVERYTHING angle. I, whilst not being pro-censorship in any way, am against depictions of hardcore acts that would generally recieve an above R18+ rating purely because I know for a fact that thousands of schools across the world will be spoiled sports, and god knows when the nazi.. uh, I mean government in Australia brings in the filter we can kiss Wikipedia goodbye. If the photo even ADDS to understanding beyond what the text does, even just BARELY, I'd totally err on the side of inclusion. But in this instance, the article is very well written and descriptive and the photograph in question adds absolutely nothing beyond controversy and dramu generation by trolls. Ironically it seems to be trolls trolling trolls, as trolls want the porn, and trolls baww about wanting it down. 124.179.19.254 (talk) 11:33, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

"If the photo even ADDS to understanding beyond what the text does, even just BARELY, I'd totally err on the side of inclusion." Except for paedophilia and bestiality, I presume?

Risks

The request above for a section on the risks of this act is very reasonable. I shall initiate such a section. Warren Zhang (talk) 03:20, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Point under risks referenced by 8 is only valid if injury occurs. Air in itself is never a problem.. or tampons or normal sexual intercourse would already pose risks. The statement as made based on the reference is incorrect and unverifiable. Please adjust. Anon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.46.202.80 (talk) 13:17, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Gloves image

Separate from the above discussion, does the image of the gloves in the gallery really add to the article? The caption is overly long, and should probably be moved to the body of the article - if you need that much text to show relevance to the article either it's not relevant or the article is missing something. If a picture is necessary, it's a low quality image and doesn't explain why a fisting glove is any different to a normal PVC glove (is it?) - if it isn't different, would something like File:PVC-Handschuh.jpg be better? Thryduulf (talk) 00:56, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• I think the entire gallery should go. A plethora of images for such a short article serves no purpose, and the link to Commons covers it. Drmies (talk) 01:14, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• I was going to say almost exactly the same thing but didn't have the chutzpah to do so in such a contentious discussion (not this sub-discussion, but generally).--Bbb23 (talk) 01:17, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Agree. Not a source in sight. --JN466 03:39, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

OR

The so-called "Gallery of Fisting Hand Positions" is pure original research. No, seriously — it shouldn't be there. Carrite (talk) 02:09, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• Concurr, reliable expert secondary sources should be used for this kind of analysis and weighting. Fifelfoo (talk) 09:22, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Per these two (now combined sections), I've removed the gallery as it didn't add to the article (galleries are discouraged anyway, see WP:GALLERIES) and wasn't sourced. I have though moved the first image (the "duck beak" hand position) to an inline image as it does illustrate the first part of the "Techniques" section and so can't be classed as OR. That isn't to say that we should (or equally that we should not have it), but it needs to be discussed separately.Thryduulf (talk) 11:08, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Article or section split

Given that masturbation has been divided with two sub-headings under "male" and "female" techniques, I propose one of the following splits might appease some of the "social discomforts" people may have with regards this article being all squashed into a few poorly organised paragraphs:

• a) Split into two distinct articles: Fisting and Anal fisting (currently redir. here).
• b) Rewrite so that Vaginal fisting and Anal fisting and set apart under different sub-headings, due to the physical differences, then sub-heading under them for various things such as techniques, risks, LGBT practices, etc.

Given that vaginal is "purely" sexual, being a sexual organ, and anal is "speculatively" sexual, being part of the digestive tract, and probably not advised by many doctors due to the greater risk of rectal damage, it would be more responsible to divide the "forms" of fisting, and under those sub-headings further discuss pleasures/risks, and also allows for homosexual male practices to be better placed, rather than mixed in with female techniques that are "the norm" to most people, even those without homophobic sentiments, anal contact is "taboo", "unsafe" or just "yuck". Bear in mind homosexuality is a "minority group" and it is unreasonable to place a stronger gay-POV over heterosexual practices, when a more neutral method can be and should be applied to remove any and all form of discrimination, to gay and straight people. Though wiki does not censor, and does not make attempts to separate hetero/homosexual ideas too distinctly, we should bear in mind that anal intercourse, carries a stigma in many cultures and religions (sometimes leading to noose), so splitting means those people are not forced to read "all or nothing", and give them means to complain, or edit war – which is always a good aim of any "controversial" topic, keep the issues separate to minimise damage when trouble stirs. Also the higher degree of infection from anal "exploration" should be separately identified.

As an encyclopedia the article should not only be discussing the practices in terms of what it looks like, as seems to be the clear agenda from certain groups forcing the picture issue and arguing the toss. If people want to know what it feels like to have a hand shoved up their arse, they need only try it, no photo on Earth is going to provide that answer! The article needs to be more objective, and less porn-like. What is important is that someone develop a more neutral article, or two if necessary, from what exists, and make three or four sets of "fisting" context rather than one:

• 1 Vaginal
  • 1.1 Lesbian practice (?)
• 2 Anal
  • 2.1 Gay practice

And for those who disagree: If there's going to be a major LGBT WikiProject to focus on LGBT issues, then where's the focus if vaginal/anal are all crammed into one paragraph, causing more disagreements than are absolutely necessary?

If you still disagree.. you know where you can stick it!

Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 11:54, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I think we should focus on the image that I am asking the community to remove first and then they can focus on the article. As it is this article is moving away from my original request of removing the picture. --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 17:42, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't see why we shouldn't discuss improvements to the article while that discussion is still ongoing - especially as the two are not incompatible. The picture question is one of image content, this is one primarily of structure. This proposed structure would work with either 1 or 2 images. Thryduulf (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

The !vote above is still open, the article is protected. Doesn't matter what else is discussed. The article is only accessible to admins at the moment, and although I don't trust their judgement in handling of the comments above either, that's just the way it is. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 21:40, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I think as a first step we should have one article with a lead giving a brief overview, and then two major sections - one for vaginal and one for anal (the order probably doesn't matter). We can split them into separate articles later if the amount of content justifies it.

I'm unsure on the gay and lesbian sections though. If there is content in reliable sources that treats e.g. lesbian vaginal fisting differently to lesbian anal fisting and straight fisting of either orifice, then yes if we can sectionalise them if the content volume makes it worthwhile. My gut feeling (sorry) is though that there is no more difference between homosexual and heterosexual fisting of the same hole than most other sex acts where it is physically possible for both orientations practise. I might be wrong (I've not looked) but I'd want to see some evidence of separate notability first. Thryduulf (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Order matters; Anything anal is a simile of vaginal activity. Lesbian fisting may not necessarily be any different to hetero fisting physically, however, if someone can provide RS regarding its prevalence between gay women, possibly as a more intimate/practised activity than sex toys, it would give such a section credence. The physical act of fisting alone isn't what gives fisting notability, imo, rather the prevalence between f-m, m-m, f-m, and even the thought that gender reassigned male to female persons may practice either form. Again, it's not something we can really debate here, because everyone has their own views, often clouded by whether they accept either/both methods and further clouded by their sentiments towards sexuality. Only studies will be of any use, in giving this article unequivocal subject matter. I recommend avoiding debates from editors POV, or sexuality COI matters, and address the article with the subject in mind first, and leave all personal interests/concerns aside. I don't consider the practice worthy of Wiki myself, but even I can play Devil's advocate when I need to. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 21:04, 6 December 2011 (UTC)