Talk:Father Chrysanthus

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 20:41, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

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Chrysanthus holding a spider

• ... that Father Chrysanthus (pictured) was a Capuchin friar and arachnologist? Source: "Father Chrysanthus died at his 'home', the monastery of the Capuchin Order at Oosterhout, Netherlands" "His career as an arachnologist began as a scientific lecturer to the general public" [1]
  • ALT0b: ... that Father Chrysanthus (pictured) was a Capuchin friar known for his research of spiders?
  • ALT1: ... that the Dutch arachnologist Father Chrysanthus (pictured) was the only person to make the International Society of Arachnology's first congress "international"? Source: "The presence of Father Chrysanthus from the Netherlands [...] provided a bare minimum of international participation." JSTOR 3705958
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Hamari Beti

Created by Umimmak (talk). Self-nominated at 22:32, 4 March 2022 (UTC).

• Okay - new enough, long enough, incredibly well-sourced, neutral and well written. Very good work which could well achieve GA status with some additional work. As for the hooks - ALT0 just states the obvious, but ALT1 is very hooky and also gives a better presentation of the subject. Shahid • ^Talk2me 11:29, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

@Shshshsh: thanks for the review; I'll strike out the other two then since you prefer the other. Do you have thoughts on if the image should be used? Umimmak (talk) 06:11, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

I believe it chould be used. It's not the clearest image without its caption, but it is quite relevant and contributes well to illustrating the content of the hook. Shahid • ^Talk2me 09:20, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

ALT2 to T:DYK/P2 without image

Title

@Medusahead: Per your rationale that there may be many more "Father Chrysantus"es elsewhere, we can deal with that when another Father Chrysanthus gets a Wikipedia article written about them, and if that's the case the solution would be to use a parenthetical like Chrysanthus (arachnologist). The solution is not to flout WP:TITLE by selecting a name which the vast majority of sources do not use for him (the common name is clearly Chrysanthus, Father Chrysanthus, or Pater Chrysanthus -- you have not even bothered adding a citation showing a reliable source referring to him by this conglomeration of his religious name and birth last name), nor is it to make a controversial page move without any discussion beforehand. I think the solution would be to move it to Chrysanthus (arachnologist) instead of this name which is decidely not the WP:COMMONNAME, but again you should discuss moves before doing something this bold in the future. Umimmak (talk) 20:25, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

@Medusahead: This move will require an administrator because of the pre-existing redirect page; before I make the request please make sure this compromise works for you. Umimmak (talk) 20:36, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Just to get a sense of the WP:COMMONNAME, we have:

• Pater Chrysanthus (Gordh, 2011; van Helsdingen 1977; Lempke 1954–1981; Kraus, 2006)
• Father Chrysanthus / Father Chrysanthus O. F. M. Cap. (van Heldingen 1973)
• Pater Chrysanthus O. F. M. Cap. / Wilhelmus Egbertus Antonius Janssen / Pater Chrysanthus (van der Hammen 1972)
• P. Chrysanthus (van der Hammen 1951)
• Fr. Chrysanthus O.F.M.Cap. / Chrysanthus / Chrysanthus, Fr. (Chrysanthus 1960)
• Fr. Chrysanthus / Chrysanthus / Chrysanthus, Fr. (Main 1982)
• Fr. Chrysanthus, OFM / Chrysanthus, Fr. (Bulmer 1974)
• Fr. Chrysanthus / Chrysanthus, O. F. M. Cap., Fr. (Lubin 1980)
• Fr. Chrysanthus / Chrysanthus / Fr. Chrysanthus O.F.M. / Chryanthus, Fr. (Robinson & Robinson, 1974)
• Fr. Chrsanthus / Chrysanthus, Fr. (Robinson 1982)
• Chrysanthus (Davies 1997; Jäger & Schönhofer, 2021)
• Fr. Chrysanthus O.F.M. Cap. (Chrysanthus 1953)
• Chrysanthus / Chrysanthus, Fr. (Locket et al., 1974; Lehtinen, 1967)
• Chrysanthus / Chrysanthus, F. (Brignoli, 1982)
• Fr. Chrysanthus O.F.M. Cap. / Fr. Chrysanthus / Chrysanthus / Chrysanthus, P. (Chrysanthus, 1965a)
• Fr. Chrysanthus O. F. M. Cap / Chrysanthus (Chrysanthus, 1965b)
• P. Chrysanthus / Father Chrysanthus (Levi & Kraus, 1965)
• Fr. Chrysanthus (Levi & Kraus, 1966)
• Fr. Chyssanthus O.F.M. Cap. / Fr. Chrysanthus / Chrysanthus (ICZN, 1979)
• Father Chrysanthus (Kraus, 1999; Locket, 1982)
• P. Chrysanthus / W. E. A. Janssen (Tijdschrift voor Entomologie, 1949)
• Janssen, Wilhelmus Egbertus Antonius / Father Chrysanthus OFM Cap. (Engel, 1986) [edit: fixed typo Umimmak (talk) 06:11, 25 September 2023 (UTC)]
• Dr.Fr. Chrysanthus / Chrysanthus / Chrysanthus, F. (Tikader & Bal, 1981)

Just to show there is broad consensus for not using this made-up name "Chrysanthus Jannsen" and also that of "Father" (or "Pater" in non-English sources) is also exceedingly common. Umimmak (talk) 21:41, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 24 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved back to Father Chrysanthus. There is a clear consensus that "Chrysanthus Janssen" should not be the title of the article, but no consensus between "Chrysanthus (arachnologist)" and "Father Chrysanthus" (and both options are backed by reasonable arguments). I have chosen to revert it to "Father Chrysanthus" because that was the stable title for over a year, but this is simply a WP:NOTCURRENTTITLE decision so anyone who feels strongly about the arachnologist disambiguation is free to open a new RM. (closed by non-admin page mover) BegbertBiggs (talk) 22:58, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

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Chrysanthus Janssen → Chrysanthus (arachnologist) – Chrysanthus, although born Wilhelmus Egbertus Antonius Janssen, is hardly ever referred to by the "Chrysanthus Janssen" with a combination of his monastic name and birth surname. None of the sources used as references for this Wikipedia article use this name (see #Title above), and there are only four Google hits, all in Dutch and three of which are trivial mentions, for "Chrysanthus Janssen" unrelated to the Wikipedia article's new name after it was changed without discussion from Father Chrysanthus (courtesy ping Medusahead). English sources routinely refer to him as "F[athe]r Chrysanthus" or just "Chrysanthus", but as he is notable for his arachnological research and Chrysanthus already exists as a disambiguation page, Chrysanthus (arachnologist) would work as a new name for this article; it already exists as a redirect here. Discussion at WT:D#Can a (religious) title be used to disambiguate? (courtesy ping: Cullen328, SMcCandlish) confirmed that the parenthetical (arachnologist) would be preferable to use of the title in the article name. Umimmak (talk) 01:44, 24 September 2023 (UTC) [Edit: just to clarify my own position, I just don't want it to be at Chrysanthus Janssen, but I don't have strong opinions between the article's original title Father Chrysanthus and Chrysanthus (arachnologist) — it just initially seemed there'd be more support for the latter so that's how I formulated the move request discussion. Umimmak (talk) 06:10, 25 September 2023 (UTC)] — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 18:41, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support Chrysanthus (arachnologist). This person is notable as a scholar studying spiders, and is not known by the current title, or as a priest/monastic. Cullen328 (talk) 01:55, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• Support, but consider a different disambiguator? From what I can see, the common name in taxonomic circles (the circle in which he is notable) is simply "Chrysanthus", and "(arachnologist)" would be permissible as a disambiguator, though I wonder if something broader / more general might be used, since "arachnologist" is not going to be a famililar term to all of our readers. It shouldn't be something like "(priest)" because he wasn't notable in an ecclesiastic capacity. And something like "(biologist)" would be anachronistic for such an early writer. PS: I notified WT:WikiProject Tree of Life about this RM, because they care how names of taxonomic authories are handled.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:00, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

  I just want to comment that Mark Harvey (arachnologist), G. B. Edwards (arachnologist), David Hirst (arachnologist), Ekaterina Andreeva (arachnologist), and Günter Schmidt (arachnologist) all use the parenthetical (arachnologist), so there is precedent for that disambiguator on Wikipedia. I have no strong feelings on if (biologist) or (arachnologist) is better, but when I have seen other disambiguators it does seem to be for researchers whose work is not purely focused on arachnids (János Balogh (biologist), Rosemary Gillespie (biologist), Thomas Workman (entomologist), Pierre Bonnet (naturalist)). I believe these nine are all the articles in Category:Arachnologists with any sort of parenthetical disambiguator. Not sure what you mean by "for such an early writer", the 1950s and 1960s were not that long ago? Umimmak (talk) 22:07, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support Chrysanthus (arachnologist). that's the name he's usually referred to as, and the field of study he's most known for his contributions to. Sawyer-mcdonell (talk) 02:40, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• Comment. WP:NCDAB says "Natural disambiguation that is unambiguous, commonly used, and clear is generally preferable to parenthetical disambiguation". The reference titles use Father Chrysanthus (3), Pater Chrysanthus (6) and P. Chrysanthus (1). In the three papers of his cited, he is listed as Fr. Chrysanthus. So Father Chrysanthus seems appropriate, unless we use the Latin. Another natural disambiguation would be his birth name. —  Jts1882 | talk  05:54, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• Support Father Chrysanthus as COMMONNAME and NATURAL.--Ortizesp (talk) 04:49, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
• Comment. His papers on spiders are generally referenced under "Chrysanthus, P." or "Chrysanthus, Pater". See, e.g., here. So I would prefer "Pater Chrysanthus" over "Chrysanthus (arachnologist)", but consider either acceptable and better than the existing title. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:30, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

  If it's relevant, he uses the name "Fr. Chrysanthus" in at least some of his own English language papers, e.g. here. He also cites himself in the same way in that paper at least (here). Monster Iestyn (talk) 18:01, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah the WSC is a Swiss resource and this use of de:Pater to refer to a priest is German (and also Dutch — nl:Pater) not English. I don't see "P[ater] Chrysanthus" too often in English-language sources (but it's not unattested). Umimmak (talk) 07:34, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Relister comment: At this time, I'm seeing a clear consensus to move away from the current title, but more discussion would be useful to determine whether "Father Chrysanthus" or "Chrysanthus (arachnologist)" would be the ideal destination. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 18:41, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.