Talk:Extraterrestrial liquid water

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Why this page?

More worlds beyond the solar system are being found all the time. Also more data about water on Mars and hydrocarbon lakes on Titan, etc.

I found a section on extraterrestrial water in both Ocean and Sea, and added to the one on 'Ocean'. But there is scope for more details, in a way that would overbalance those pages. This is the place for it, and I hope that others will be adding to it.--GwydionM 15:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What about Science Fiction?

If someone wants to do a page for Oceans Beyond Earth (fictional), fine. I'd sooner it was kept separate from this page, which is intended for solid science.--GwydionM 15:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The best name

The backbone of this page is a section called Extraterrestrial oceans from Oceans. I changed the name, because I always try to use an Anglo-Saxon word or pair of words rather than imports from Latin. Does that make sense to people?--GwydionM 17:01, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be better as Extraterrestrial oceans. ("Oceans Beyond Earth" doesn't sound right, and at the very least would have to be changed to "Oceans beyond Earth" to meet Wiki guidelines.) Thoughts? --Ckatz^chat _spy 19:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, it should be beyond rather than Beyond.--GwydionM 20:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've taken the liberty to move this article to 'Extraterrestrial oceans', a far more encyclopedic title than its predecessor; I've also edited the lead to reflect the move. Quizimodo 23:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why "oceans" only?

This article's scope should be expanded to clearly cover bodies of water on a lesser scale than "oceans", including underground liquid water reserves (as may exist on Mars), as well as liquid bodies of hydrocarbons (as appear to exist on Titan). I suggest Extraterrestrial liquid water and hydrocarbons.--Pharos 07:37, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the advantage. Mars and Titan are included because Mars probably did have oceans once and Titan may have them now. --GwydionM 16:37, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The advantage is (1) there is no scientific definition of "ocean" in an extraterrestrial context (the bodies of liquid on Titan, for example, are only the size of lakes), (2) the important thing is the very existence of liquid water, not whether it is in ocean-sized bodies and (3) there is no other article to comprehensively document this information. Of course, the article should still have a section to discuss theories specific to ocean-sized bodies of water.--Pharos 20:29, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. What about Estraterrestrial liquid water? Waldir 18:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, but I had hoped to retain information on Titan's liquid hydrocarbon lakes here as well.--Pharos 04:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Omg, sorry, Pharos, I have no idea how I could not read your name suggestion =P I thought the same thing, as you can see :) I'd prefer keeping the article on water alone, but I dont mind having other (eventual) life-supporting oceans too, I guess. But the title gets a little ugly... :\ Waldir 22:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Because, as explained above, this would not cover very important topics like the possibility of liquid water seeping through the Martian subsoil a few meters down. Also, we should be using "scientific" terms (i.e. extraterrestrial rather than beyond Earth)--Pharos 20:59, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If one must change, why not Oceans and seas beyond Earth. Even Oceans, lakes and seas beyond Earth. But so far, there is nothing definite enough to create a need.--GwydionM 17:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes: proposals for a new title are getting 'ugly' and seem unencyclopedic. I believe the current title should remain as is; if it must change, something like 'Extraterrestrial oceans and liquid bodies', 'Extraterrestrial oceans, seas, and lakes', or similar. One definition for 'ocean' is 'a very large or unlimited space or quantity', so (in a narrower sense) it also applies to liquid bodies -- water or otherwise -- on extraterrestrial bodies. Quizimodo 20:44, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, plain Extraterrestrial liquid water is good for me I suppose. I had just wanted a place on Wikipedia where we could discuss liquid hydrocarbons other than the Titan (moon) article, but I suppose we can get to that later; anyway there's no reason we can't give it an ancillary mention in this article. I would rather avoid terms like "oceans", "seas", and "lakes", as these would not cover very important topics like the possibility of liquid water seeping through the Martian subsoil a few meters down. Also, we should be using "scientific" terms (i.e. extraterrestrial rather than beyond Earth)--Pharos 20:59, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Waldir 16:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dear editors, You may be surprised to learn that Wikipedia policy (WP:COMMONNAME) is to use the most common name for a subject as the article title, even if that name "doesn't look encyclopedic" or "isn't a scientific term" or "looks ugly". --DavidCary (talk) 17:24, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

newbie question

Hey guys, I'm just a newbie in this subject, so my question might be stupid: I found this, saying that salty water could exist in Mars' current environment. I almost bet that this info's obsolete, otherwise it'd be already in this article, but I just wanted to make sure. In any case, since it's currently the first result in google for water in other planets, I think it deserves a mention here, with an explanation of the refutal of the hypothesis. What do you think? --Waldir 10:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Contradiction?

The article lead says "Earth, with oceanic water covering 71% of its surface, is the only known planet with liquid water on its surface and is certainly the only one in our own solar system."

Later, the article says, "The 'ice giant' planets Uranus and Neptune may possess large oceans of liquid water under their thick atmospheres." Obviously there's a contradiction here, but I don't know which statement is right to fix it. Oren0 (talk) 07:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say that liquid water deep down is different from surface water.--GwydionM (talk) 17:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Water on Mars and Venus

Actually water is ~~beieve~~beleived to exist somewhere on Mars below ~~it's~~its permafrost few meters deep ~~beenath~~beneath the dry ice. Mars is just a cold planet, the equator average temp. is like 0 degs. C, and polar average temp. is -150 degs C. Polar ice cap do contain water over summer, depending on the seasons, water at the pole swells and shrinks. For Venus there must be no water on the surface, but some speculations say the water can be burry in the mantle, or the outer core.--Freewayguy ^{What's up?} 23:49, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a scrapbook?

The section on "Beyond the Solar System" is mainly pasted from other web sites. These aren't quotes from primary sources, but somebody else's writeup. This material needs to be incorporated properly. Długosz (talk) 22:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

All of the web sites are serious on-line sources, sometimes a press release by the actual researchers. Quite a few are from New Scientist, which means it would be exactly the same as the printed magazine.--GwydionM (talk) 07:34, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is not the reputability of the sources, but the form in which the things they say is being presented. Direct quotation should generally only be used when the quote itself is significant somehow, in cases like this we should just write our own prose explaining the same facts that the source explains. I've rewritten (or in some cases removed) the quoted material now. Bryan Derksen (talk) 04:57, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Solar System?

The words "200+ Solar Systems" are incorrect. If a system of planets encircles Sol (the Sun, of this Solar system), planet encircling other stars should be called Stellar Systems.TeigeRyan (talk) 03:25, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Saying "solar systems" has become the norm.GwydionM (talk) 17:30, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Liquid water on the moon?

Liquid water or ice? I think the article means ice. Liquid water doesn't seem right. 207.69.139.156 (talk) 04:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the heads up, I have removed the whole section. -84user (talk) 10:54, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Liquid Water .... or Water Vapour ????

Too much of this article is repeating information that belongs in the water vapor article. They are two different states. There is water vapour on Venus, but that doesn't mean there is liquid water. While there is evidence of liquid water's importance to life, tHere is no evidence of the importance of water vapour to extraterrestrial life. So unless it is at least supporting evidence of liquid water, it should not be included here.--EvenGreenerFish (talk) 07:05, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Restored exoplanet details

This was removed without consultation. All of it is solidly referenced and is in line with other lists of interesting exoplanets. --GwydionM (talk) 09:18, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

They were removed because they belong in other articles. No more speculation. It is time this article was about science ! --EvenGreenerFish (talk) 00:23, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You have no right to override other people's view on the matter. (Several of us have been contributing to the list of planets.) Raise it for consultation and get a consensus. And the details are all well sourced. --GwydionM (talk) 09:54, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have every right according to WP:NOT .... I suggest offshooting a list called [List of extrasolar candidates for liquid water] --EvenGreenerFish (talk) 01:14, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Have created the new list article ... now go for gold ... --EvenGreenerFish (talk) 07:33, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

One basic is not to make large changes without consulting people. Don't be so arrogant.--GwydionM (talk) 18:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How long do you want this page to be exactly ?

Planet X orbits Star Y's habitable zone. Planet X might have moons. Star Y might have other planets. Therefore something orbiting Star Y might possess extraterrestrial liquid water. There are far too many examples of this sort of flawed logic on this page. Not to mention that this criteria is so loose that it could literally be applied to billions of stars in the Milky Way! We'll end up with a page that is infinitely long ... Putting the candidates in a list page makes sense. Its the way just about every other article in Wikipedia works. I get the feeling some Wikipedians just resist change for the sake of it.--EvenGreenerFish ([[User talk:EvenGreenerFish|talk]]) 10:38, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Biggish problem with this page

On NASA's own website it describes many more places in our solar system as having water in some form - but not necessarily liquid. eg. there is ice on Mercury in the deepest craters.

But this page does not seem to cover many of those other places (such as Mercury) - because it only talks or, rather, is entitled "Extraterrestrial Liquid Water". Fair enough. But where is the Wiki page that talks about those other forms of water/water ice etc.. ? Does it exist? If so, I cannot find it. We need a link on here.

As it stands, this page gives the wrong impression (from Wikipedia) that we do not know of those other sources of water in our own solar system - yet we DO know of them.

This article should thus be expanded to include all forms of extraterrestrial water or else a link to such a page should also be provided (Assuming such a page exists? And/Or will soon be written). 83.115.90.85 (talk) 16:11, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Mars Express discovery

Updated Mars with recent discovery of water near south pole (http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2018/07/24/science.aar7268), but wasn't sure if it was accepted consensus enough — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.37.78.193 (talk) 15:29, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Subsurface ocean on Titan?

According to NASA^[1], there is likely a subsurface ocean on Saturn's moon Titan. Is this enough to be added to this article?

References

^ "NASA - Cassini Finds Likely Subsurface Ocean on Saturn Moon". www.nasa.gov.

Problem with Enceladus diagram

In the Enceladus subocean diagram the temperature of surface ice is mentioned as "T= -77 K". Isn't that wrong? I think It should be either -77 C or 196 K, or even something else... 2804:14D:A484:8BAA:E501:82C8:C2B4:BBED (talk) 06:21, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind, just saw it's ~ and not - before the temperature. 2804:14D:A484:8BAA:E501:82C8:C2B4:BBED (talk) 06:24, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Extraterrestrial_liquid_water&oldid=1064042173#Liquid_water_in_the_Solar_System

Why is this constantly reverted as original research or irrelevant? This does not say more than the source article says, and simple "calculations" (which are more orders of magnitude than real calculus), so it can't be considered OR in itself, nor irrelevant since comparing the total mass with other solar bodies may be useful to have an idea of what it represents. 193.54.180.221 (talk) 15:51, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced paragraphs in water rich circumstellar disks section

@EvenGreenerFish: Thanks for adding to this article in the past. There are two paragraphs that you added back in 2017 that don't have any sources and the first one has been tagged as needing citations since 2018. Do you have any sources for those paragraphs? Thanks. @ArkHyena: I assume you're interested in this as well. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 06:27, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[NASA-_Cassini_Finds_Likely_Subsurface_Ocean_on_Saturn_Moon-1] "NASA - Cassini Finds Likely Subsurface Ocean on Saturn Moon". www.nasa.gov.

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