Talk:Evangelical Church in Germany/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Käßmann stepped down

Bishop Käßmann stepped down as bishop of Hanover and President of the Council of the Evangelical Church. Last Saturday she was caught by the police driving under the influence of alcohol. As far as I understood the police got aware of her because she didn't respect a red traffic light. She will work as an ordinary pastor from now on. As far as the Evangelical Church in Germany is concerned the vice president, Nikolaus Schneider, praeses of the Evangelical Church in the Rhineland, will act as president of the Evangelical Church in Germany on a provisionary basis until autumn. http://www.neues-deutschland.de/artikel/165812.ekd-ratsvorsitzende-kaessmann-tritt-zurueck.html --93.130.226.135 (talk) 00:02, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Here is a picture of Nikolaus Schneider http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_Schneider --93.130.226.135 (talk) 00:11, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Recent move

Disagreement over the title for article dealing with the federation of church bodies in Germany called Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland Some users argue the name is not directly translatable (as there is a lack of comparable concepts) other maintain to uses various translations. Mootros (talk) 12:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

The Church's official English website gives the Church's English name as the Evangelical Church in Germany. So, I don't see why this should have been moved in the first place. This is the English Wikipedia by the way. Ltwin (talk) 20:46, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

The move was done because almost nobody in the English speaking world uses this name. See here for examples: [1], [2],

Well, in link #4 it says "She was, therefore, resigning not only as chairman of the Evangelical Church but also as Bishop of Hanover". --77.181.237.33 (talk) 18:30, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

[3], [4], [5] Also there is complete inconsistency about the naming of the member church bodies who make up the federation called EKD. See for example: Protestant Church in Central Germany [[6]]. Other examples are the The Lutheran World Federation vs World Council of Churches use of Pomeranian Evangelical Church vs Evangelical Church of Pomerania.

Hope this makes sense. Mootros (talk) 16:21, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, yeah I suppose you could make that argument, but now you have a title no one reading this encyclopedia can understand. There is a redirect from the Protestant Church in Germany entry. There is also a section in the article which explains what evangelical means in this context. I just don't understand why the German should be preferred when it absolutely adds nothing at all to understanding that Evangelische means Protestant, Kirche means Church, and Deutschland means Germany. Ltwin (talk) 21:04, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I guess it could be called Protestant Church in Germany. Probably a better option; but it might need some better explanation bind the "ideological" reasons why this translation is not common in Germany. It's a kind of between a rock and hard place situation, especially since the organisation itself does not use this translation. The German name avoids this all together. What do you think? Mootros (talk) 21:15, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

It could be called "Protestant Church in Germany", but it isn't, it's called (in English) the Evangelical Church in Germany. The links above show that newspapers avoid the name because (being newspapers and not encyclopedias) they don't have the time or space to explain to their readers that "evangelical" doesn't always have it most common meaning. Wikipedia, being an encyclopedia and not a newspaper, can explain that, and can point to such churches in the English-speaking world as the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada to show that "evangelical" doesn't always mean "associated with Evangelicalism". I don't have a strong opinion either way as to whether the article should be called Evangelical Church in Germany or Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland, but it should not be called Protestant Church in Germany, because the church isn't called that. +Angr 21:24, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

May I point out that not only newspapers but some of the church bodies themselves use this name: i.e Protestant Church in Central Germany [7] Mootros (talk) 21:28, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Mootros, how can you say something like this? This is plain wrong. I looked up their homepage and (of course) they call themselves "Evangelical Church in Central Germany" http://www.ekmd.de/en/ --77.181.237.33 (talk) 18:53, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

The german Wikipedia uses various english expressions to name the articles (e.g. de:National_Register_of_Historic_Places about specific english or american institutions de:Federal Reserve System de:Federal Bureau of Investigation, de:Federal Aviation Administration de:Federal Communications Commissionde:Distrito Federal, especially when the german legal or organizational system does not have an equivalent. This is exactly the case here and why not apply "if in Rome, do as the Romans do" to this spcific German case. I personally cannot understand why a normal english reader should not be able to decipher "Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland" as being something about a basically protestant Church body in germany. Evangelisch is NOT Protestant, Kirche in Deutschland does NOT mean "One Church in One Country" but is an expression for an umbrella organization covering different Landeskirchen. This is unique and a primitive babelfish translation does cover the gap and not enlighten about a substantial difference based on the history of the land of Martin Luther and Philipp Melanchthon. Take a glass of red wine, dont do a Kaessmann and keep the title as it is now. BR --Polentario (talk) 21:31, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

The German wikipedia has different policies to here. But Polentario points in the right direction that it is a name after all. Kirche here means Landeskirche (or actually federation of Landeskirchen in this case) which is not directly translatable. It would only work for a title where there are established counterparts i.e. Nazi Party and not Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, or University of X instead of Universiteat X. Wikipedia:Naming_conventions is quite clear on this. But since there is no such name or concept, it's rather problematic to translate.

Mootros (talk) 21:44, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

The naming convention is in so far clear as we shouldnt translate a Marsupial into a wolf and vice versa. So a unique institution is to be called by its unique name. Any Translation here is neither problematic nor difficult, to translate this specific name would be plainly wrong. --Polentario (talk) 22:10, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

(Read rather problematic as British English i.e. exactly what you seem to be saying ;) Mootros (talk)

Better? German is direct and getting to the point. BE is mostly to be read between lines. --Polentario (talk) 23:38, 25 February 2010 (UTC):

I am very unhappy about the recent move. The EKD does have an offical English name, why not use it. If you look at the major German parties it is all the same, the entry is "Christian Democratic Union" http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Christian_Democratic_Union_%28Germany%29 There is also a consistency for bodies of the EKD to use the word "evangelical" on their homepages and official publications. Even the above mentioned "Protestant" Church in Central Germany calles itself "Evangelical Church in Central Germany" on their homepage http://www.ekmd.de/en/. By the way, the EKD is not the only Protestant church in Germany, so it would be quite pretentious to call it THE Protestant Church in Germany, at least in official usage. --77.181.237.33 (talk) 10:07, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

The name issue was settled here long ago. Moros should have started a discussion before moving and changing names. For me this comes very close to vandalism. And your arguments are wrong. In Canada and the USA the largest Lutheran church bodies call themselves "Evangelical", most EKD churches are eather outspoken Lutheran or at least "united" with a strong Lutheran influence. It's not our fault that there is no Lutheran, and thus "Evangelical" tradition in the UK. Your arguments are also inconsistent with general usage in the English wikipedia. Many German institutions do have an official English name, think of the DGB trade union. Here as well the English name is used "German Confederation of Trade Unions" http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/German_Confederation_of_Trade_Unions. I can't find "Protestant" Church in Central Germany on their homepage by the way. They call themselves "Evangelical Church in Central Germany" http://www.ekmd.de/en/. It's of no importance how other people call them. Anyway it is the ONLY case where the WCC doesn't use the official English name containing "Evangelical". Have a look it's impressive http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/regions/europe/germany.html Finally as far as newspaper usage is concerned you may have a look here http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/bild-english/world-news/2010/02/23/senior-female-german-bishop-caught-drink-driving/police-stopped-margot-kaessmann-after-she-ran-red-light.html and http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100224/wl_afp/germanyreligioncrimepeople --Mk4711 (talk) 10:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

As far as I can see the English wikipedia has been the only one not translating the name since yesterday, even the Russians do it Евангелическая (evangeliczeskaja!!) церковь Германии. As a Catholic I think you shouldn't write Catholic Church anymore either using our proper Latin name Ecclesia Catholica Romana. Just joking. --77.181.237.33 (talk) 11:52, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

That's a good point. Nobody would change the entry on the Russian Orthodox Church to Русская Православная Церковь. Let's face it, church names usually get translated in contrast to names like Deutsche Post or Deutsche Bank. This is a common policy. And it's handled like this by the EKD. As far as Protestant/Evangelical is concerned "Protestantische Kirche in Deutschland" would sound perfect, but they just don't call themselves that way. --80.132.192.234 (talk) 14:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

English wikipedia has different rules from Russian wikipedia. Which common policy do you mean? Mootros (talk) 14:25, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Is that all you have to say after all those arguments in favor of "Evangelical Church in Germany"? I perfectly understand what he means. Church names usually get translated to other languages. It's different for companies. The Lutheran World Council translates them, the EKD translates its name into English, the media do it (I've never seen "Evangelische Kirche" in an English language text). And look at these wikipedia entries Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church , Evangelical Church of Augsburg Confession in Poland, Federation of Evangelical Churches in Italy, Evangelical Lutheran Church in the Kingdom of the Netherlands, Evangelical Lutheran Church – Synod of France and Belgium, Bolivian Evangelical Lutheran Church, Evangelical Church of Czech Brethren, Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia, Evangelical Lutheran Church in Southern Africa, Evangelical Lutheran Church in Namibia, Evangelical Lutheran Church of Papua New Guinea, Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania, Evangelical Lutheran Church of Brazil, etc. It looks to me that 90 per cent of Lutheran churches in the world call themselves Evangelical in whatever language. Many of the examples can even be found in countries where English is an offical language, and if not they all have their names translated as Evangelical in their respective wikipedia entry. The only Evangelical churches that now don't appear as "Evangelical" have been moved by you during the last two days. Let's face it, you changed Evangelical to the German word because you don't like the English word. But how can "Evangelical Church in Germany" be wrong if it's perfect for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada, Evangelical Lutheran Diocese of North America, Evangelical Lutheran Synod, Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. As long as they don't change their names, I really can't see your point. And how come we have to justify what has been normal in the English wikipedia for many, many years just because you renamed this article and several other articles related to the EKD the last two days? This article should be brought in line with all the above mentioned articles on Evangelical churches immediately. --77.181.237.33 (talk) 17:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

The best point yu had is the one about company names. You might try to compare the Lutherans of Finland with a quite homogenous Landeskirche in Germany (there aint so much) but not with the EKD. A church member moving from Hamburg to Baden and then to Bavaria switches three time the regligious denomination (no kidding), Lutherans, Unierte and Reformed, which didnt have common Last supper before the 70ies. Its NOT comparable to any other country. In so far "Evangelical Church in Germany" is completely wrong even if it's perfect for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America or Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada. Its just because Germany IS different. If you dont believe, try 'Smyser, How Germans negotiate' and then read the German article about "Religious denomination" (Konfession). Think the content of the latter should be translated into english, but better keep your hands from the naming. --Polentario (talk) 20:12, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, moros did not only move the EKD article, but also for all its member churches. So we agree that it should be Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bavaria, etc. The EKD could call itself Evangelische Kirchen (plural), but they chose the singular in the 1940s in order to stress their wish of unity. Just as the European Communities started to use the singular in the 1970s. Strictly speaking the name of the EKD is misleading even in German. So that has nothing to do with German or English. On the other hand the EKD appears in public as a unified bloc even though there are theological differencies. #1 pastors are dressed in a similar way whatever regional church they belong to (compare the pictures of Käßmann (Hanover, Lutheran) and Schneider (Rhineland, United) #2 personnel is switching hence and forth among member churches. Former EKD President Wolfgang Huber was bishop of Berlin (United), but he started his career as a pastor in Württemberg (Lutheran), Käßmann, until recently bishop of Hanover (Lutheran) started her career near Kassel as a vicar of a United member church. #3 Apart from very rural East Frisia different member churches don't have local congegrations in the same town or village. So, even though technically wrong, the Evangelical Church is perceived as one Church. Anyway, all this has nothing to do with the language. Some time ago the Pope said that the Evangelical Church is not a "real" Church. This was met with strong disapproval by the EKD. As you certainly know, the German states collect Church tax for the Churches. If you are a member of the Lutheran EKD Church in Württemberg and you move to the Rhineland you automatically become a member of the (United) Evangelical Church in the Rhineland. If you leave that Church and move back the (Lutheran) EKD Church in Württemberg doesn't consider you being a member anymore. So, in real life the EKD is much more than just a lose federation of Churches. --77.181.237.33 (talk) 20:58, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

No, we disagree. And you shouldnt count me as moron. It should neither be Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bavaria. And crossing borders within the lander is widely restricted, an exemption not the rule. What the pope states is hmmm interesting but hes not a protestant, is he? I never claimed EKD to be a loose federation, but alas, Smyser would help to understand that the german situation is different. Differences should be visible. --Polentario (talk) 21:13, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

So, what's the difference between the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bavaria and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America? And crossing state lines is not the exemption. Jochen Bohl [8], bishop of Saxony (Lutheran) is a pastor from Westphalia (United). Martin Dutzmann, originally pastor in the (United) Evangelical Church in the Rhineland is now head of the EKD Church of Lippe (Reformed). By the way, in 2008 he was inaugurated by the then EKD President in Berlin, Wolfgang Huber (United) as the new EKD Military Bishop in a solemn ceremony. Until then this post was held by the (Lutheran) bishop of Oldenburg. Here are some nice pictures of the ceremony [9] Especially the picture at the bottom right is interesting. So, there is one EKD military bishop for all EKD soldiers in Germany. And if you think that differences should be visible you should tell the EKD to use the plural form. I didn't tell them to use the singular. Apparently THEY don't want differences to be visible. It's their choice. --77.181.237.33 (talk) 21:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Ilse Junkermann was inaugurated as bishop of the Evangelical Church in Central Germany (United). Before she was a pastor in Württemberg (Lutheran). There is a video clip and lots of pictures here [10]. The inauguration ceremony in Magdeburg Cathedral was led by the (Lutheran) bishop of Bavaria and the (United) bishop of Baden (dressed like twins). Pictures #9 and #10 are especially interesting (unfortunately the numbers only appear if you click at the pictures at the bottom of the site). I found other examples of moving personnel, but I don't want to bore you. --77.181.237.33 (talk) 22:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Here its about EKD. You bore insofar as i dont care much about top level management crossing borders. If you study in Württemberg and work as a just normal priestess, you wont cross borders in most cases. Same as for teachers btw. --Polentario (talk) 17:41, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

March 2010

I don't see any consensus for a move from the English name, nor any evidence of any real problems with the English translation. "Evangelical" is a perfectly standard translation of the German "Evangelisch." Note definition 3A of "Evangelical" in the Oxford English Dictionary:

3a. = PROTESTANT. Now only with reference to Germany and Switzerland, where its German and French equivalents are also applied in narrower sense to the Lutheran as distinguished from the ‘Reformed’ or Calvinistic Church. In the German Empire ‘The Evangelical Church’ was the official name of the established Protestant Church of Prussia, formed in 1817 by the union of the Lutheran and Reformed churches.

This meaning exactly corresponds to the German evangelisch. That there is another definition of "Evangelical" is not relevant. Furthermore, note that this meaning is more specific than the general term "Protestant." "Protestant Church in Germany" means almost the same thing as "Evangelical Church in Germany." But "Evangelical" in the sense of meaning 3a is a term specifically used for Germany and Switzerland! Trying to argue against Kirche being translated as "Church" as Polentario may have done above strikes me as even odder. "Evangelical Church in Germany" as a translation of "Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland" is about as easy of a translation as one can imagine being presented with. I find it odd that all of these articles have been moved without any discussion, in spite of a clear lack of consensus for a move. john k (talk) 01:11, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi John, thanks for shedding light on the issues. That's very similar to what my Oxford dictionary says. It might be worthwhile pointing out that in my edition there is a date indication saying Mid 16th century for what you described above. Look further down it says:

4a. = Eager to share enthusiasm or believe with others Early 20th century b = Evangelistic Mid 20th century (emph added)

Is there any sound evidence that 3a is nowadays used outside these bodies themselves? Mootros (talk) 06:12, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't know; it seems very likely that the English word evangelical nowadays has the meaning of German evangelisch only in the names of church bodies. But that's still no reason not to call this church body by its English name, Evangelical Church of Germany. +Angr 10:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Especially as I found out that there is even an Evangelical Lutheran Church of England [11]. --Mk4711 (talk) 12:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, although to judge by the organizations it belongs to, it might actually be "small e" evangelical as well, while the EKD, the ELCA, and the ELCC aren't. +Angr 13:22, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The Evangelical Lutheran Church of England is more of a hardline Lutheran church like the Independent Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Germany or the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. The recent move doesn't make sense anyway. --91.57.61.130 (talk) 16:03, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The dates given indicate when that meaning originated, not that it is only a meaning which was valid in the 16th century. Notice that it specifically says "now only with reference to Germany and Switzerland" which implies that, er, it is a term in current use. Terms no longer in common use are marked as archaic or obsolete. This meaning is not so marked, meaning it's a perfectly acceptable usage. And, very clearly, it is used to refer to Lutheran and related groups without any connotation of "Evangelicals" of the Bible thumping variety. This is exactly how numerous Lutheran organizations in the English-speaking world call themselves (like the ELCA, etc. etc. etc.), and how the German churches normally translate their name into English. That it is not normally used to mean this in other contexts is really quite irrelevant. john k (talk) 22:45, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

As I said at the beginning of this discussion, the current title makes it impossible to even know what the article is about. This needs to be returned to the English name for this church. The argument has been that Evangelical Church in Germany is not the common English name for this church; however, I would like to ask how common Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland is in English? As of this point, the editors who support this change have given no valid reason why the English name should not be used. Ltwin (talk) 07:19, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

One of the valid reason given was the 'name is not directly translatable (as there is a lack of comparable concepts)'. Why presumably would we have articles like this e.g.: Äußere Neustadt? Mootros (talk) 20:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

An other reason was that given that the suggested translation is not widely used, but another translation is used to confuse matters. Mootros (talk) 20:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

This translation is being used for all Evangelical Lutheran churches worldwide. There is absolutely no reason for singling out the EKD and its member churches. This is the English wikipedia. In my opinion your statements don't make sense at all. It's more than arbitrary. Ever told the ELCA that they have an impossible name? --93.130.247.45 (talk) 01:39, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

This American Lutheran finds the assertion that evangelisch is untranslatable into English a bit snobistisch. Though many American so-called Evangelicals are not aware that the word "evangelical" has two meanings, it does. There's the original meaning (derived from evangelisch) and the newer meaning (synonymous with "evangelistic"), which many of us consider to be a corruption. Lutherans in America are generally aware of this, and for those who aren't it's not hard to explain. I'd rather have the article's title be in English, with the German name given in the opening paragraph, and a brief explanation of what "evangelical" means in this context. Ruckabumpkus (talk) 03:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The ELCA's magazine, The Lutheran, consistently uses "Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD)" to refer to the EKD. For instance, [12]. Ruckabumpkus (talk) 04:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

My response for all of this: As an American Lutheran, I refer to this church-body as the "Evangelical Church in Germany" for the name, and as the EKD for the acronym. Other phrases used as names by American Lutherans for the EKD, at least conversationally if not in writing include "The German State Church" (as opposed to the free churches) or "The German Protestant Church." I understand that Germans usually say that their church is more like the National Council of Churches than a monolithic entity. However, I don't see it that way. It is a merged church, similar to the merged Protestant church in the Netherlands, except with a lot more Lutherans and a lot less Calvinists. It is federally arranged polity wise, but it is more than a federation of solely independent churches. The NCC & the WCC are constitutionally incapable of instituting a form of worship or even having any binding doctrinal statement at all. The EKD, to the best of my understanding, can make such decisions, but usually does not in deference to the various regional churches that make up the body.

Lutheran church-bodies in the United States frequently have unusual names, some of which have been translations of German names. LCMS is a description, not a name, the WELS & ELS are synods, even though this use of synod is a very particular one, ELCA is a name that really should be a description of all American Lutherans, not just ELCA Lutherans). The reason for this is because of various Lutheran understandings of the doctrine of church. I could explain the details, but I don't feel the need to.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 06:32, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I prefer the English names if the translation does not result in a false title. I have brainstormed a little on User talk:Mootros. Mootros does have a point regarding the articles that made regional EKD churches "State Church"es, which they are not. I also share Mootros' concerns about the ambiguity of "Evangelical", and would not support the use of the term if the common understanding is that it refers to Evangelism. However, the above comments suggest that this is not the case, so I'd be inclined to move the articles that had been at "foo State Church of foo" to "foo Church of foo" and otherwise have the English titles as before.

I'd further suggest that we make up our minds on how to proceed, as this is becoming tl;dr. I propose to either start formal WP:RMs once this RfC dies down or expires, or to re-christen this RfC into an RM discussion and ammend it with distinct move requests including !vote sections. Skäpperöd (talk) 18:28, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually only the EKD member churches of Baden, Württemberg, Hanover, Brunswick, Saxony, and Mecklenburg (only 6 out of 22!) still call themselves officially Landeskirche in German (by the way, Mecklenburg is going to be part of the new Evangelical Church in Northern Germany by 2012, then it'll be only 5). No new member church as the result of any merger has ever kept the wording Landeskirche. As far as the EKD and the other 16 (!) member churches are concerned I don't see the necessary consensus for the recent move. I think we should now concentrate on the EKD churches that have so far retained the wording Landeskirche. There again I don't see any consensus for not translating the names. We can nevertheless discuss the following: should Landes just be ignored? Should it be translated as State Church (historic meaning) or regional church (current meaning like in many other German institutions only covering one part of the country)? Due to the fact that no new member church has ever chosen the wording Landeskirche as part of their official name I assume that Landeskirche in the 6 above mentioned EKD member churches is a historic relic. Each territory covered by these churches used to be an independent country/state until 1871 (1866 in the case of Hanover). If the orginal wording is translated according to the historic meaning it definitely needs an explanation. In my opinion this former status of established state church is very well explained in the article about the Evangelical Lutheran State Church of Hanover. To use the German name is not the solution in my opinion, because one thing is clear, the German name is NEVER used in an English language context. [13]

There are other proper names in wikipedia that need some explanation. That's what wikipedia is made for! --91.57.58.115 (talk) 19:33, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think "Landeskirche" needs to be translated as "State Church", because "Land" is a more broadly defined term than "State". There is an article Landeskirche that should be linked instead from the first line. We could start an RM with option (A) German title, option (B) Englisch title as before, option (C) English title as before but "Church" instead of "State Church" where indicated, option (D, E, F) whatever. Skäpperöd (talk) 06:06, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

First we should vote on whether the titles should be in English or German (if English is not considered the result of this discussion anyway). That's the original question raised by the recent move. Then we can still have a look if there is a better translation for the 6 member churches concerned --Lehnen (talk) 12:17, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I may be a little late to this discussion, but why is the title of this article in German. This is the English Wikipedia. Therefore, the articles should use their English translations. For example, the article about the nation south of the United States is "Mexico" even though the country is officially "Estados Unidos Mexicanos" in Spanish. KitHutch (talk) 16:42, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

See #Recent move above for the ongoing discussion, though I wouldn't blame you for TLDRing it. +Angr 17:19, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I was alerted to this matter of whether to have the name of this church body in its original German or in English translation. I think that the title should remain in German since that is the actual name of the institution; however, it would be helpful if an English translation of the title would be placed into the opening paragraph as this is the English Wikipedia. I may oblige if no one else does.--Drboisclair (talk) 17:26, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I have put the translation into the section that deals with it. I think that this is a fair compromise considering that this is the English Wikipedia.--Drboisclair (talk) 17:33, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Looking at my German-English/English-German dictionary I see that no other translation is given for "evangelisch" other than "Protestant," so "Protestant" should be in the literal translation. The rationale for this is in the text that immediately precedes my addition.--Drboisclair (talk) 17:37, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry. This was not satisfactory. As an English speaker and only an English speaker, unless you count some introductory Spanish in college, it is unreasonable that I have to read through the entire introduction and the "Name" section to discover that this article is about the Evangelical Church in Germany. I should not have to do this on the English Wikipedia! Ltwin (talk) 19:51, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Not satisfactory at all. It's like using the Finnish name for the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland. --Mk4711 (talk) 20:21, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

We need this article needs to be listed under its English name. Otherwise, the ELCA's article on German Wikipedia should be changed to its English name as well. KitHutch (talk) 23:04, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Are you serious? Your dictionary isn't very good, so you insist on a poor translation? Here is Leo, an excellent online German-English dictionary, which notes "Evangelical" as one translation of "evangelisch". The literal translation of "Evangelisch" in the context of the proper name of a church is "Evangelical", as evidenced by the numerous denominations which translate it that way. The EKD itself calls itself the "Evangelical Church in Germany" on its English website. This is madness. john k (talk) 17:01, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

To my mind, the purpose of an encyclopedia article is to help people who are looking for basic information about the topic in language they can understand. For instance, an article about a topic in science should not be so filled with scientific jargon that ordinary people can't understand it, even if the jargon is more technically correct than ordinary language. Insisting that this article's title has to be auf Deutsch amounts to the same kind intellectual elitism as when specialists in any other field insist on specialized vocabulary instead of using plain language. Ruckabumpkus (talk) 03:51, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

If we keep the German title here we have to move Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland to Suomen evankelis-luterilainen kirkko, etc. --Mk4711 (talk) 10:07, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

It´s very easy to come to an end: The offical website of ekd (english version) translate "Evangelical Church in Germany". So that's their name in english, and not: Protestant Church in Germany or something like that. See here: Evangelical Church in Germany. --84.191.215.210 (talk) 15:02, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

I have only now seen this discussion (and please excuse me if I may not have read every single line of it), but I just wanted to emphasize that I absolutely support keeping the name in English, and with "Evangelical". There is, as far as I can see, absolutely no convincing reason for doing otherwise.

It is a well-known fact that the translation of "evangelisch" to "evangelical" will remain ambiguous, and for general purposes, the term "protestant" may be more useful. Nonetheless, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has not renamed itself either just because this word is frequently used in a different sense. I can only quote what someone else said previously in this discussion: "It could be called "Protestant Church in Germany", but it isn't." So there's no reason for Wikipedia to go make up new names, or use the German one when there is an acceptable English translation. (Interesting question just on the side, why is the German ELCA article called by its English name? Do the national Wikis have different standards?) Anna (talk) 19:41, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Moved back

It's clear from the above discussion that the consensus is that the English name should be restored, so I've moved the article back to what it was up until a few weeks ago: Evangelical Church in Germany. +Angr 15:44, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

photo of new EKD President?

shouldn't we replace Ms Käßmann's picture with that of Nikolaus Schneider? http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_Schneider --Mk4711 (talk) 16:55, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

ELCA

I'd like to see some reference in the article on the special relationship between the EKD and the ELCA. [14] It's not just by coincidence that these church bodies have similar names. Where could the information be added properly? --Mk4711 (talk) 23:51, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Landeskirchen

In the history section, this sentence was marked with the [dubious - discuss] tag. So I'm wondering what, if anything, is dubious about the following statement and if it needs to be changed to make it accurate: "Before the end of World War I and the collapse of the German Empire, some Lutheran and Evangelical churches were established churches or state churches ([Landeskirchen] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help))." Ltwin (talk) 07:09, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

The only thing dubious is the distinction between Lutheran and "Evangelical". It should be "United". Not only the Prussian State Church was a united church in the German Empire (e.g. Baden). The Reformed Church of Lippe was also an Established Church. --Mk4711 (talk) 12:49, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Merge

I think the Protestant Reich Church article properly belongs in the history section of this article. What do you think?--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 19:00, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

First of all I have a problem with that name. It was never called that way, even not in colloquial speech. The offical name was German Evangelical Church (German: Deutsche Evangelische Kirche, DEK) [[15]]. The DEK in turn was the successor of the German Evangelical Church Federation (Deutscher Evangelischer Kirchenbund), established in 1922. --Mk4711 (talk) 20:16, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

The other problem is that the nazis tried to undermine the Protestant churches in Germany by the establishment of the DEK. Even though very successful, they somehow abruptly changed their strategy in 1935 by appointing a minister for church affairs. From then on the idea of the DEK was somehow abandoned and in reality the DEK already ceased to exist in 1935, though not officially disbanded. I think the main concern of the Nazis was that they didn't want a strong organisation alongside the NSDAP and they were certainly not interested in a 2nd Führer. --Mk4711 (talk) 20:27, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Finally the current article Protestant Reich Church is not very good and there are several contradictions, e. g. "It was decided to replace the former German Federation of Protestant Churches with the new umbrella Evangelical Church in Germany". German Federation of Protestant Churches sounds more like Deutscher Evangelischer Kirchenbund (German Evangelical Church Federation). Did it exist alongside the DEK? Maybe under cover, in exile?? I don't know. --Mk4711 (talk) 20:37, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm opposed to a merger. The DEK and the EKD are different entities, and there's quite enough to say about the DEK for it to keep its own article. +Angr 21:21, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd rather suggest the merger of the articles on the Protestant Reich Church and Confessing Church into something like "History of Protestant churches in Germany". --Mk4711 (talk) 23:13, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Such a historical article would be interesting - I'd recommend the title History of Protestantism in Germany - but even if such an article were to be written I'd still rather keep Protestant Reich Church and Confessing Church as separate articles. +Angr 01:15, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for all the thoughts. Since for now there does not seem to be any consensus, I will: 1. Wait for more comments on both pages. 2. In the meantime, change German Evangelical Church so it redirects to the this article instead of the Reich Church article. 3. Post on the Wikiproject Germany & Lutheranism pages to solicit their comments here.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 21:12, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Why did you redirect German Evangelical Church? There is only very limited information on the German Evangelical Church in the article on the Evangelical Church in Germany. --Mk4711 (talk) 23:22, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

It directed to the EKD for a number of years before someone changed it to the Reich Church article. As an English speaker, I sometimes call the EKD the German Evangelical or Protestant Church. I've looked for the EKD article by typing German Evangelical Church, and was surprised to come up with the Reich Church article instead. I suspect most who search for German Evangelical Church are, like I was, also looking for the EKD article. See also this talk page discussion: Talk:Protestant Reich Church#German Evangelical Church. Also, see this news article for another example: [16] If this offends your sensibilities, then by all means revert my edit.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 06:24, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

If you merge the two articles you also have to merge it with the Confessing Church. --Lehnen (talk) 07:41, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

If German Evangelical Church is the official name of the Protestant Reich Church, then of course it should redirect there. There can be a hatnote there explaining the redirect and pointing the reader to this article. I'll go do that now. +Angr 08:32, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually "Protestant Reich Church" should redirect to "German Evangelical Church". --Lehnen (talk) 11:40, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

That should be decided by a requested move. +Angr 11:53, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Angr, see Talk:Protestant Reich Church#German Evangelical Church. Perhaps a disambig page would be a better choice? In addition, of the American Lutheran bodies, (for example, the LCMS & WELS) were for much of their history called "German Evangelical Lutheran Synod of..) I'm not sure what the best option is here. Lehnen, I find your thought about adding the Confessing Church to the EDK article to be worthwhile. However, I thought the Confessing Church was the counterpart to the German Christians Movement within the Landeskirchen, not a separate church-body.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 20:50, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

According to http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bekennende_Kirche the Confessing Church saw itself as the only legitimate church and hat its proper administration created by "emergency law" (2nd paragraph in this article). It was persecuted by the nazis, the EKD speaks of "martyrs", but some officials of the Confessing Church held also offices in the DEK. On top of the article you can see a membership card issued by the Confessing Church of this time. --Lehnen (talk) 08:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

There is also this article Kirchenkampf, also with an English version, about the whole issue. --Lehnen (talk) 10:25, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I think it's just impossible to squeeze all this into one single article. In such an article the EKD would be nothing more than a side note in the end. --Mk4711 (talk) 16:53, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Lehnen, the demographics of the English version of the Confession Church article speaks as if it was a political identification within the Evangelical Church rather than a separate church body. Perhaps it was some of both-- the leaders of the Confession Church declared that they were a separate church, but the vast majority of those who identified with it were also part of the state church. In any event, the consensus here seems to me to be against the merger of the articles. I'm going to remove the merge tags. Thank you all for the educational and informative discussion.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 19:31, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

catholic church

I deleted this sentence "In states with Catholic monarchs, the Roman Catholic Church fulfilled the role of state church." The sentence is somewhat problematic if you look how things were like in the 18th century until the abdication of the kings and grand-dukes. The Saxon royal house converted to Catholicism when Augustus II the Strong became King of Poland and stayed so even after the end of this personal union. That's why the church of Dresden Castle is a Catholic church. Saxony remained a Protestant state nevertheless. On the other hand, after Bavaria had annexed large Protestant areas in the 19th century there was an established Protestant church alongside the Catholic church under the protection of the Bavarian royal family, even though the Bavarian kings remained Catholic. --Mk4711 (talk) 10:38, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Evangelisch and Evangelikal

I am commiing from Germany [I have read the discussion "Recent move" above] and I am a Lutheran. (-: So what is right.

Martin Luther named (1521) his followers "evanglisch". It was his suggestion to name his movement "evanglisch". Luther never want that Christians, will name them after him (Lutherans), this was the reason. (compare: Brockhaus - Religion. Mannheim 2007 or Brockhaus in Sechs Bänden etc. same content) The confessional meaning came from Martin Luther. (compare Duden - Herkunfswörterbuch - under: Evangelium (and there under evanglisch) So Evanglisch means

1. in the sense of the Theology of Martin Luther (Evanglisch = Lutheran)

and

2. the word evanglisch is a hint to the Evangelium (Gospel) and so to the "sola scriptura" a core of Martin Luthers theology.

Since this time Lutherans name them self Evangelisch and in the english country they name them self evangelical (or seldom evangelic). (compare e.g. Cassell's German Dictionary). A "protestant" can be a follower of Zwingli, Luther or Calvin. So protestant is word which includes movements of christians beside Luther. Which sometimes like Luther, but follow other preachers. But words are changing. A lot of baptists etc. beguns to name them self evangelical too. But Buptism is not 100% percent Lutheran. This is the problem. If you want to say that you are to 100% a Lutheran you can use the second word "evangelic". Today in Germany we name "Evangelikale" typical american Theolgians (of followers of them) like Baptist, Pentecostalism-Believers and people which believe that the Dinosaurs don't get a place on Noah's Ark (the special believers of a strange interpretation of creationism) compare: http://www.musicway.de/musicway/songtexte/lonzo-westphal/songtext-die-dinosaurier-9326.html). (The anglican church is a special case. Henry VIII never wanted to place evanglic(al) Theology into his church but the Bible of the Lutheran William Tyndale and other works, compatible to the works of Martin Luther made a change, so "I" would name today anglicans "evanglic(al)s", too, because the theology is in the near of Martin Luther. Lutheran Churches in america are in general eveangic(al) Chruches. But it may be that some people of the them will believe (against the bible, because dinosaurs are not in the text) that dinosaurs don't got a place on Noah's Ark (-: ) Sorry, the idea to say the EKD is not evangelical seem to be a strange Apologetics of Baptist, Pentecostalism-Believers etc. So I would say that this passage is a POV, so it must be deleted. Do you thing the EKD don't know what they are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! with friendly greetings Sönke Rahn --Soenke Rahn (talk) 20:09, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

The article Evangelicalism says things like I decleared.--Soenke Rahn (talk) 21:59, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

It's not saying the EKD is not evangelical in a Protestant or Lutheran (for the churches that are Lutheran) sense. What it is saying is that the term evangelical in the EKD's name does not mean evangelical in the sense of evangelicalism but in a Protestant sense. The article isn't saying they are not evangelical; it's saying they are not evangelical in the sense of evangelicalism. Keep in mind that this is the English Wikipedia and most English readers, at least in the US, will think evangelical = evangelicalism. That is why the article explains the difference. Ltwin (talk) 01:35, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose that the important statement of you is: "Keep in mind that this is the English Wikipedia and most English readers, at least in the US, will think evangelical = evangelicalism. That is why the article explains the difference.". I would say that you are right when you mean that this is important. Ok, (or unabbreviated (because Ok is a German word too:) Ohne Korrektur (Etymology)) - But, I would say that it is important too to make here a note that the "english word changed in general in the last years" because a lot of people will not understand this passage right. This is a problem. On the other hand a lot of not US-people e.g. British people will read this text too. A lot European countrys are looking into the English Wikipedia and Germany is a part of the European Union. And in such countrys they do not know the "revised evangelical Christians movement" (in the sense of Evangelicalsim). It is an Article to the EKD. I suppose you don't mean it in this way. (I would not like it when I read anti-US-statments in the German Wikipedia. The English Wikipedia is not realy a only USA-Wikipedia, is'n it?) So please look again about this passage I suppose you will find a better sollution, so that anybody will good live with this result. (-: with friendly greetings, Sönke --Soenke Rahn (talk) 12:46, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

By the way. The next thing I miss is a sentence to the "Confessing Church" and "Dietrich Bonhoeffer" (in the section History). In this tradition the EKD sees it self! A very important tradition for the EKD. Very Important, please look about this problem, too.

--Soenke Rahn (talk) 13:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Hey, why don't you feel in the missing gaps? I have very little knowledge of Germany or this church. The thing that I'm trying to say is that the changes you made seemed eliminate the differences. So lets do this. I'm listing all the terms here and please write in what they mean so I can get a better sense of what you are saying. I'm assuming you are a native German speaker? I think the language gap maybe causing our communication problems.

• evangelisch =
• evangelikal =

Ltwin (talk) 19:50, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Hey, yes it is a complicated question. First it is to say it is important to know in which context the word is used. Sometimes I would say that the usage of German "evangelikal" and especialy "Evangelikalismus" is a usage of anti-americanism of some persons. This is the problem. Do you know Ferris Bueller's Day Off? Ferris is saying that he hates -ism words, because such words makes a lot of trouble. (German synchronication of the film - I suppose in English it will be the same.) In Germany we do not have a word evangelisch + ism. When we mean the movement we say Luthertum = engl. translated with an -ism word a little bit strange -- Lutheranism (-: But I suppose you can say too evangelic movement = evangelische Bewegung what we say too.

Ok, when you will be sure that you mean "evangelisch" you can use "evangelic" as helpconstruction. So you can say:

evangelisch = evangelic (the abbreviation of evangelical I know)

but it is completly not posibble to say evangelical = evangelikal this would be completly false. evangelical = 1. evangelisch 2. evangelikal (but this as an foreing word) so you will find this second transaltion not in a German - English dictionary. You will find it in the Duden - Dictionary for foreign words. (The Duden books are a traditional autority for the German language.) Foreign words (= Fremdwörter) are words are not often used, words for special cases, Words for science or the the upperclass (not ordinary words). So it is a thing of the context. The idea to say that this one (evangelical) or the other (evangelisch) will better read in the bible seems to a be POV for me, but by the way I read in the Lutherbible in the original of 1545 (after Luthers words: who is reading in the holy scripture, with them will talk the holy ghost ... WA 47 page 184). I mean know - some Bible translations, I don't like because the holy ghost seams to stutter in it. I don't understand him. I don't have the problem with the German Luther Bible 1545. Ok, I see here and there a riddle but the Lutherbible sounds good.

Now, sometimes it is better not to make frontiers. - I would say in this context it would be the best "to declare that the evangelical Church used it in the tradition of Luther and William Tyndale and that the english content of the word sometimes is another. look into wikipedia article evangelicalism."

with friendly greetings, Sönke --Soenke Rahn (talk) 21:57, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to all participants!

Hey everybody on all sides of the translation and naming discussion, Thanks very much for your efforts. The discussion itself has been very valuable to me: I'm in the process of translating an exhibition on religion for a German museum, and you've saved me a lot of research and weighing of alternatives. The Talk pages are a big advantage of W. over conventional encyclopedias! Wegesrand (talk) 11:30, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Confused

Okay, this article is rather unclear to me, so let me see if I'm getting this right. This is a Protestant alliance of (basically) Lutheran, Calvinist, and hybrid churches, each given a territory for exclusive jurisdiction? So, for example, Bavaria has the "Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bavaria," and therefore, as far as the EKD is concerned, Bavaria is Lutheran. Consequently, if people in Bavaria wanted to make a Calvinist (Reformed) church, it would not be allowed to be part of the EKD. Is that right? If so, what is the point? Why not just have separate "alliances" of the Lutheran churches, the Calvinist churches, etc. This article really doesn't make that clear. I don't really understand what they're uniting for, since they're not a single denomination. RobertM525 (talk) 02:04, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not an expert but lets see if I am able to answer your questions.

• This is a Protestant alliance of (basically) Lutheran, Calvinist, and hybrid churches, each given a territory for exclusive jurisdiction?

Yes, they are Lutheran, Reformed, and United. However, they were not "given" territory, they have always had it. The territorial churches have existed longer than the EKD. They've existed since the Reformation. During that time, German princes who became Protestant claimed that they had the right to determine what faith would be practiced in their lands. So, each German state had its own church.

• Consequently, if people in Bavaria wanted to make a Calvinist (Reformed) church, it would not be allowed to be part of the EKD. Is that right? If so, what is the point?

I wouldn't think a EKD Calvinist church would be desirable, as it is not traditional to that territory. Remember, these are the former state churches of Germany. These are the churches that started and have always been a part of Germany—they represent the German Protestant tradition. Their probably isn't any desire in the EKD to set up competing churches. The reason the United churches came to exist seems to be more about political involvement in church affairs, see Prussian Union (Evangelical Christian Church). I think the point is that these churches see themselves as the representatives of German Protestantism, and their theological differences do not prevent them from taking collective action on many issues.

• Why not just have separate "alliances" of the Lutheran churches, the Calvinist churches, etc.

They do. See United Evangelical Lutheran Church of Germany and Union Evangelischer Kirchen.

• I don't really understand what they're uniting for, since they're not a single denomination.

Well its not all that unique. The historical Protestant churches in the Netherlands have done it recently, see Protestant Church in the Netherlands. Also, their are examples of American denominations, see Evangelical Synod of North America which united Lutheran and Reformed congregations; this denomination is a predecessor of the United Church of Christ.

Hope that helps some. I'm not an expert, but I did try. Ltwin (talk) 20:37, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, there is one member church that is not associated with a specific territory: the Evangelical Reformed Church in Bavaria and Northwestern Germany is a Reformed (Calivinist) church whose parishes are in otherwise Lutheran areas. —Angr (talk) 21:03, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Angr. I stand corrected. Do you know if it would be possible for a new church of a different theological tradition to form in a territory where there is already an EKD member church, other than the church you mentioned? Ltwin (talk) 22:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

No, I don't know. I don't think most German Protestants particularly care about the theological differences between Lutherans and Calvinists nowadays, and if they do, they're probably conservative enough to want to form a Freikirche of their own rather than a new member church of the EKD, so the situation is unlikely to arise. —Angr (talk) 23:06, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

So this is, in essence, an outgrowth of the Peace of Westphalia. >.< Wow. 362 years later. I suspected, but I couldn't believe that the old Holy Roman Imperial religious territories that were laid out after the end of the 30 Years War could possibly still be affecting religious affiliation in 2010. But there it is—EKD "parishioners" practice their religion based upon the preferences of the Duke of Saxony in the 17th century (and so forth). Oy. FWIW, this article might be able to articulate this idea a little bit better—that EKD territories are based upon the religious persuasion of (largely 17th century) nobles by means of Cuius regio, eius religio. RobertM525 (talk) 03:08, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, sort of. Cuius regio, eius religio also applied to Catholic areas, so for a long time there wouldn't have been Protestant churches (of either flavor) at all in Bavaria and the Rhineland, or for that matter Catholic churches in places like Hamburg, Berlin, and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. And it's not really that surprising that the territorial decisions made then still play a role: in general, people tend to belong to the same denomination as their parents and grandparents, and people in Germany tend to stay put in the same region where their parents and grandparents lived. —Angr (talk) 07:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

The boundaries, it's worth noting, are largely those of the 19th century German states (as also are the boundaries of Catholic dioceses). The modern organization of state protestant churches and the Catholic Church in Germany came about after the Napoleonic Wars and the end of the Holy Roman Empire. john k (talk) 20:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

The thing is clear - The Church is an evangelical church. Evangelical is a word from Luther which was transfered into English by Tyndale. So the Main direction is Lutheran. On the other hand there were merged by Friedrich Wilhelm III. (Preußen) the Lutheran Church and the Reformed churches under the Unierte Kirchen. But if you will look on the German article: de:Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland you will nothing read about Calvin, but you will read the word Luther again and again. In the tradition of the EKD (Evangelical Church in Germany) Calvin helped to spread Lutheran theology across France etc. and he gave answers for a time of a persecution. (e.g. Wolfgang Huber made a statement in the Calvin year 2009 in this sense.) (If a person is determinated to go to hell it is easier to kill him. Such ideas are interesting in a time of war. But in times of peace I suppose it would be to simple for the live. (-: ) For the EKD Calvin is more interesting as a historical person than a theologian. But his theological possitions which are possibly different to Luther are known - but are not important in the mainstream of the church. I suppose it would be better when you ask here and there on the German site of the article. The article is very strange to read for a German. -Sorry - with friendly greetings, --Soenke Rahn (talk) 15:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you go to the homepage of the Evangelical Reformed Church (a member church of the EKD) http://www.reformiert.de/ you'll see Calvin just after scrolling down a little bit. No Luther though. The EKD is predominantly Lutheran nevertheless. Also because virtually all United churches have a very strong Lutheran background. There is a strong migration within Germany from east to west and from north to south. EKD Germans just switch to the EKD member church active in their new neighborhood. No matter whether it's Lutheran, Reformed... People don't care. Actually you need to be a theology expert to see the difference. Worshiping and even the way EKD pastors are clad is 99 per cent identical. Even the song book is the same everywhere (Evangelisches Gesangbuch - Evangelical Song Book). --93.130.134.222 (talk) 14:46, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Calendar of Saints

The article about Francis of Assisi mentiones the Calendar of Saints of the Evangelical Church in Germany. If so, it would be interesting if someone started an article about that Calendar, like there are about those from others Christian denominations.85.242.239.3 (talk) 23:46, 12 December 2010 (UTC)