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Did you know nomination

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 17:10, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Storye book (talk) at 18:58, 4 January 2023 (UTC).[reply]

In the meantime, would you mind if I suggested a new hook for the article? I do think her win is impressive but it gives me pause that the competition doesn't have an article, plus the intriguingness of this particular award would require knowledge of Placido Domingo (and thus would count as special knowledge or interest). I'm thinking of proposing a new hook instead but I'd wait for the article fixes to be done first. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:05, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Narutolovehinata5, the article for the International Placido Domingo Competition is at Operalia and should probably be added to Alt0 if we eventually use it. TSventon (talk) 10:13, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Thanks for the correction! Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:25, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ALT0a: ... that singer Elena Manistina won first prize in the 10th International Operalia competition? Source: BBC (British Broadcasting Company, UK's primary TV station, known for its independence from advertising) - "Elena Manistina ... Winner of first prize in the 2002 Operalia Competition"]Storye book (talk) 10:29, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think we can use any hook about an award she won that is sourced to a bio on an affiliated organization's website. I also don't think it's very interesting -- it looks like various other singers also list those same awards, so it's possibly not unusual to have some of these awards? I kind of feel like this is "... that professional singer won an award for professional singers?" It's just kind of blah.
What about something built around the fact she was flown into (Frankfurt?) from Moscow to step into a role (sang from the side? It's in German, not sure exactly what it's saying, possibly that the assistant director was onstag but not singing and Manistina sang the part offstage or walked on just far enough to be visible and sang the part but didn't actually play the part?) in a production's first performance because the artist who was supposed to play the part was sick?
The source says (machine translation from German): "In return, ensemble mezzo Claudia Mahnke was unable to play the princess due to a virus; Assistant director Verena Rosna replaced her with her dazzling stage appearance in a playfully convincing manner, while Elena Manistina, flown in from Moscow, sang from the side with full-bodied, then role-appropriate, sharp tones." To me that's pretty intriguing. Valereee (talk) 16:28, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Or possibly something around the fact she's performed Azucena in NY, Berlin, Paris, and Washington DC? I don't know if that's actually unusual, though. Does it indicate she's the best in the world at that part and every director's first choice? Valereee (talk) 16:28, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As someone who's commented and seen many opera performer nominations, an opera performer performing in multiple locations around the world might be marginally intriguing, but it's not unusual. In fact, it's quite common. However, I do agree that the "she replaced someone who was sick after flying in from Moscow" thing would work well as a hook and I think would even intrigue non-specialist audiences. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:42, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ALT1: ... that as a last-minute sub in a premiere performance, singer Elena Manistina flew from Moscow to Oper Frankfurt to sing from the wings while the assistant director mimed onstage? Source: Critic Peter Wolf-Dieter, in NMZ newspaper: "ensemble mezzo Claudia Mahnke was unable to play the princess due to a virus; Assistant director Verena Rosna replaced her with her dazzling stage appearance in a playfully convincing manner, while Elena Manistina, flown in from Moscow, sang from the side with full-bodied, then role-appropriate, sharp tones." (181 char. incl. ellipsis) Storye book (talk) 09:54, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: I have added the current independent citation to ALT0a, above. It was already in place in the article when I added ALT0a - sorry I should have included it here at the same time. Storye book (talk) 09:54, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's a good hook, but maybe "wings" could be changed to something else? The terminology might be a bit confusing for people who don't know what the sense of "wings" is being used here (theater wings?). Courtesy pings to Rlendog, Bruxton, and Valereee. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:06, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ALT1a: ... that as a last-minute sub in a premiere performance, singer Elena Manistina flew from Moscow to Oper Frankfurt to sing from the theatre's wings while the assistant director mimed onstage? (191 char.) Storye book (talk) 11:47, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Are we sure she did "sing from the. theatre's wings while the assistant director mimed onstage"? Do either of you read German and can confirm that's what the original language is saying? I added that content to the article based on that machine translation, with the edit summary "is this correct?" I don't mind taking a chance at temporarily misstating in the article, but I wouldn't want a hook to appear on the MP before someone who actually reads German confirms this is what it is saying happened. Valereee (talk) 12:50, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Valereee: You and I both got Google Translate transcriptions, both saying "from the side". The side of the stage is the wings. Manistina would have to be able to see the mime artist and interaction onstage, and be fully heard by the audience at the same time. The wings (or half in the wings and half on stage) would be the only place, really, where she could do that. I don't think we need to be anxious about that. However, Gerda Arendt will be back from vacation in due course, then we can ask her. This nomination can afford to wait that long. Meanwhile I can give you a hook with "the side" instead of "the wings". Storye book (talk) 14:06, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Storye book, I disagree that we can use a machine translation of "from the side" as telling us whether she was onstage or off. I interpret from the side of the stage as stage right or stage left -- that is, onstage, visible to the audience -- and from the wings as offstage. Valereee (talk) 17:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is OK to disagree, because we have moved on now, from "wings" to "side". I have struck the "wings" alt. Storye book (talk) 17:39, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But Storye book, moving on from wings to side doesn't solve the problem that we don't know which it is. Wings may be correct. Until some German-speaker who knows at least a little about how a theater critic would describe something comes in here and tells us whether the machine translation -- which are notoriously bad -- is or isn't correct and how we should be accurately describing it, we don't know. It's not a matter of you and I agreeing or disagreeing about which to use. It's a matter of literally neither of us knowing what the source was describing because it's a machine translation and neither of us speaks German. We need someone who understands German to come in here and say "the correct translation would be X".
ALT1b: ... that as a last-minute sub in a premiere performance, singer Elena Manistina flew from Moscow to Oper Frankfurt to sing from the side while the assistant director mimed onstage? Storye book (talk) 14:06, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have a second in between. What do you think of dropping the "from the side" business (I guess our broad audience may not know what wings means here), and say something about her "explosive voice" as a review (in Spanish) says (which I added to the article). - In the performance that I saw, she acted on stage, - just no newspaper reported. I bet she sang on the side of the stage, to be heard well, but wasn't in the premiere. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:21, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think the singing from the wings while the assistant director mimed is most interesting. But I think we can shorten the hook since it doesn't really matter that she flew in from Moscow. It is not unusual for an opera singer to fly in from somewhere to replace an indisposed singer. How about:
ALT1c: ... that as a last-minute sub in a premiere performance at Oper Frankfurt, Elena Manistina sang from the side while the assistant director mimed onstage?
It may not even be necessary for the hook to mention that it occurred at Oper Frankfurt, which would reduce the hook length further.Rlendog (talk) 16:36, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To me "from the wings" means offstage. "From the side" is less clear to me, I'm assuming there's some translation issue. Gerda, can you tell from the source whether Manistina was standing stage right or left, or was actually offstage? And are you reading it to say that the hook would be accurate in saying the AD was "miming" the performance? Valereee (talk) 17:30, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(Edit conflict) ALT1c looks OK to me. Storye book (talk) 17:33, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We can probably work out ALT1c's wording further but I'd support that angle. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:26, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See, we have again why I want to get away from DYK, but you pinged me. "A premiere" is too vague. Please mention "mezzo-soprano". We need the opera mentioned, because that is the reason: while it was Tchaikovsky's favourite it was not loved by politics and church, and so rarely performed (even today) that Manistina was one of extremely few to know the role. (The opera was staged in Frankfurt because the singer of the title role wanted to do it again, with her husband directing.) The premiere was only the second production of the opera in Germany. - That some singer sings from the side of the stage, usually sitting with the book in front of her, and someone who knows the production does the acting happens rather often, and is nothing particular to the singer, - not noteworthy. So, if short is needed and you ask me, just mention flown in from Moscow to save a premiere performance of Tchakovsky's The Enchantress, - without side, without assistant director, and even without Frankfurt if you have to. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:37, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Those are too many details and would overly complicate the hook. We try to make hooks less complicated and more easily understandable, not less. We try not to bombard the reader with too much unnecessary information and context. We try to hook them with a hook then make them learn more via the article. I personally think it would be a bad idea to try to fit in all of your wished details in a hook and instead think that Rlendog's proposal is a step in the right direction even though further fixes and clarifications are needed. Courtesy ping to Valereee. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:08, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You don't understand me.
ALT2: ... that mezzo-soprano Elena Manistina was flown in from Moscow to perform in Tchaikovsky's The Enchantress?
ALT2a: ... that mezzo-soprano Elena Manistina from the Bolshoi in Moscow was flown in to perform in the premiere performance of Tchaikovsky's The Enchantress at Oper Frankfurt? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:30, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ALT2b: ... that mezzo-soprano Elena Manistina was flown in from Moscow to save Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky

The Enchantress? Storye book (talk) 09:38, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Once again I think we're doomed. Gerda won't be happy with anything that doesn't focus on things like type of singer, production, and venue, and those just don't make for interesting hooks. When we do come up with a hook we think is interesting to a broader audience than passionate fans of classical music, she's frustrated by DYK's goals being different from her own. I do not know why we're here. Valereee (talk) 13:15, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And Gerda, it is really not fair for you to complain that someone pinged you here when you asked SB to nominate this creation. Especially when sources are not in English, we need to be able to ping a creator. Valereee (talk) 13:24, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Valereee:. I think the point about not pinging Gerda right now is that she is on holiday (vacation). There is a "vacation" banner at the top of her talk page. I don't think WP will be harmed by this template being held up for a few days while we wait for the creator to return from holiday. Storye book (talk) 16:54, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Valereee I am watching this nomination unravel with a sour expression on my face. Gerda Arendt I want to ask you to please take yes for an answer. All of these editors are massaging this hook when they could be productive elsewhere. Love you Gerda but let us all move on. Bruxton (talk) 14:14, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Gerda Arendt I am willing to take one more shot. As others stated above, Manistina's register or the fact that she flew in from Moscow are not particularly unusual or interesting (even to an opera fan like me, since there are many mezzo-sopranos and it is not uncommon for opera singers to get flown in from somewhere to replace an ill singer. But singing from the side (or wings) while someone else mimes a performance is unusual and would be interesting to an opera fan or even a non-opera fan. But it seems that getting The Entrantress into the hook is particularly important to you. So how about:
ALT2c: ... that Elena Manistina sang from the side in a performance of Tchaikovsky's The Enchantress while the assistant director mimed onstage?
or if there is enough space (I haven't counted the words):
ALT2d: ... that mezzo-soprano Elena Manistina sang from the side in a performance of Tchaikovsky's The Enchantress while the assistant director mimed onstage?
And I have no objection with replacing "side" with "wings", which I actually think would make the hook more interesting.Rlendog (talk) 15:15, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have another minute, and ALT2c and d would work, but why you'd rather mention the position of the person who mimed than that she was flown in from Moscow is beyond what I can understand. Singers fly in all the time, but for this role, there were no choices as far as I know. Repeating: in the performance I saw she had already learned the acting, and was great. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:39, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Rlendog: Word count for ALTs 2c and 2d respectively: 137 amd 151. Storye book (talk)
I think the fact that someone else was miming the role while she was singing offstage is what makes the performance unusual and thus interesting. I suppose we could say "while someone else mimed onstage" but not sure that is an improvement. I don't think that is particularly interesting that she flew in from Moscow, as opposed to flying in from St. Petersburg or from London or from New York. There may be some story behind that, but that story won't make it into the hook even if we mention Moscow and so readers of the hook won't have reason to care about it. But if they get hooked they may click on the article and find out the backstory. Rlendog (talk) 16:48, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All righty, let's settle this. Since Gerda's "on strike", she's not the nominator, and I feel no sentimental obligation to respect her wishes not to run a hook. Storye book (the nominator), Narutolovehinata5, Bruxton, Rlendog, and Valereee all like ALT1c, so I'll approve it as cited and interesting. If Gerda wants more control over the hooks that run at DYK, she can return to making nominations rather than requesting proxies. (Can't believe you're not going to mention Claudia Mahnke, what's wrong with all of you? :P) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 23:39, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, the source doesn't actually say "mimed", but I guess that'd be implicit from the fact that the singer's on the side. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 23:39, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Theleekycauldron: I nominated this article because I understood that Gerda was going on holiday (vacation), and would miss the time slot if she nominated it on her return. I don't think that going on holiday is the same as being on strike, regarding this particular nomination. Storye book (talk) 09:30, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Storye book: I'm not sure where you get that from, because Gerda explicitly names her strike as her reason for asking you to nominate on her behalf. She doesn't even mention her vacation in the message. Even if it were holiday, I don't think it changes my view that if Gerda's not up to taking the responsibility of being a nominator, I would think it unwise to afford her the courtesy of veto power we give most nominators. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 12:41, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Theleekycauldron: You are welcome to your opinions. I did understand at the time (perhaps due to an earlier conversation or something on her userpage, I can't remember) that Gerda was going on holiday, and her current talkpage vacation notice bears that out. My motive was my motive - i.e. helping out other editors in support of WP. I am not interested in negative politics aimed at people who (as far as I am aware) have never intentionally done any harm on WP. Storye book (talk) 15:56, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Leeky, I will promote before we get to 19 hooks. Here is the exact article language: Assistant director Verena Rosna replaced her with her dazzling stage appearance in a playfully convincing manner, while Elena Manistina, flown in from Moscow, sang from the side Interesting - short and sweet; and mimed is likely a good word play because of the translation. Bruxton (talk) 00:20, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Self-published tag

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Re: Previous discussion.

I disagree entirely with the self-published tag which is currently on the article.

  • The facts in the article fall into three categories: the subject's training, the subject's prizes in competitions, and the names of the subject's roles with names of relevant productions.
  • The latter are all past productions, therefore their inclusion does not constitute advertising. The three fact categories do not constitute reviews, opinion, promotion or bias.
  • The facts just list what happened - almost in the manner of a summary of last year's rail timetable.
  • There is no reason to disbelieve the facts in the article due to the nature of the source. Theatre companies, opera companies and orchestras are made up of highly-trained and professional people, and their publicity is peer-reviewed. They would not have lasted five minutes in the entertainment world, if their officially-published basic facts in the above-listed categories had been untrue.
  • Theatre companies are not like a manufacturing or retail businesses selling inanimate goods. If a wheelbarrow company says that their wheelbarrow has a wheel that turns, we cannot be sure of that, because anyone can run a company selling wheelbarrows (at least until they go bankrupt) and there is no guarantee of the company owners or staff having training or integrity. But orchestras and opera companies are a completely different issue - their owners and staff have been trained to a high level for a long time - they are tried and tested, and are in a position to be objective about the types of basic facts which are in the article. They can certainly be trusted to relay basic information such as who played what role where and when.

I think that what has happened here is that it has become too easy to be blinded by the wording of WP guidelines, and too easy to forget to use common sense. Using common sense is one of the WP guidelines. Honestly, Is there anyone who does not believe that the subject sang any of the roles mentioned in the article? I understand that Gerda Arendt plans to add some more distanced sources to the article in the near future. Until then I think that we need to be aware that no serious harm has been done to WP by this article so far, and that there is no reason to suppose that the article contains any lies. Storye book (talk) 10:38, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Opera companies are not exempt from WP:BLPSPS, period. BLPSPS is an important provision of one of our most important policies—there to prevent both promotional material from making it into articles and to prevent errors from propagating for lack of independent sources. If you wish to propose an opera exception to BLPSPS point 5, you can do so at WT:BLP, but for the time being they're treated just the same as a corporate profile on Acme Corp.'s website. I reject the appeal to common sense here. It is not at all "common sense" to me why we would allow here what we disallow in all other contexts. Wikipedia articles, especially biograpies of living people, need to be based on independent sources. This is something we drill into the heads of brand-new users, and frankly I find it quite troubling to see experienced autopatrolled users trying to claim themselves exempt from this very basic principle. If this article can be supported with independent reliable sources, then do so, and we can be done with this. If it can't be, then it should not be an article. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 15:36, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Tamzin: I was giving my opinion. That is different from claiming personal rights or exemptions. We all have a right to opinion. My opinion is not that articles should be supported solely by non-independent sources. That would be ridiculous. My opinion is that certain respected professional institutions (such as the ones used as sources in the article) are by definition independent sources, on account of their formal professionalism, and the fact of peer review. What is more, there are people already working on improving the article with the independent sources that you are looking for. That is a good thing, and I have not disputed that. We are using a talk page here to discuss the improvement of an article by giving our different opinions. None of us are gods to be obeyed at all costs. None of us have personal rights, beyond that of polite consideration by others, and the right to a personal opinion. We do have a duty to act with good faith towards the well-intentioned motives of others. Peace and love. Storye book (talk) 20:45, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
From the LA Philharmonic website:

Our products and services, including the Site and all information we or third parties provide on the Site, is provided to you "as is" and you use all of the foregoing entirely at your own risk. We make no representations, warranties or guarantees of any kind whatsoever regarding its availability or the correctness of any content thereon

Dollars to donuts, they're probably not "peer reviewing" their content to any reasonable academically rigorous standards. Definitely not if they have to tell us "we are not a reliable source, please don't trust us as a reliable source". theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 02:33, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Storye book was asking for any exemptions from the rules. However, they did point to the common sense part of WP:IAR and the fair question of "Honestly, Is there anyone who does not believe that the subject sang any of the roles mentioned in the article?". Saying that it is "troubling to see experienced autopatrolled users trying to claim themselves exempt from this very basic principle" sounds like assuming bad faith to me. Assuming bad faith is troubling. The company does not consider themselves to a be a reliable source as leeky brought up, but I do feel like Storye book had some valid concerns. SL93 (talk) 02:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@SL93: I mean, do I doubt that she really did all the things that the opera company says she did? No, I don't. But we have other considerations in deciding what material needs to be in an article, and the way we do that is by assessing what reliable, independent sources are paying attention to.
Listings from opera companies are basically gonna be a mix of three things: Rudimentary early life, list of works, and puff praise. They're not interested in quality journalism, current events reporting, or scholarly analysis; it's an advertisement, after all. And even if they did contain those things, we couldn't use them for that. The L.A. Philharmonic listing on Elena Manistina exists so that we're gonna go watch a show at the L.A. Philharmonic that features Elena Manistina. And when all you get is rudimentary early life, list of works, and puff praise, and you can't include the last of those, all you get is the very basic background information that tends to clutter up these articles.
If, hypothetically, the only evidence we could find for Manistina winning an award was an opera company listing – well, I'm sure that's accurate, but wouldn't it be unduly self-serving if real RSes don't care? And if all but one citation is making claims about a successful career based off of these listings, isn't that a WP:BLPSELFPUB#5 violation because it should be that the article is not based primarily on such sources.? Imagine, for instance, that we wrote the exact same article, but instead of four different opera houses with a veneer of professional journalism (which they aren't), we sourced the entire thing to a blog post by Elena Manistina. Do we doubt that any of it is true? Probably not. Is that the only consideration? It shouldn't be, no. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 03:10, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure why you're explaining this to me. I never said it was the only consideration. I'm just pointing out three things to Tamzin - the proper use of IAR, a fair question, and that assuming bad faith is not acceptable. SL93 (talk) 03:13, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have another fair question - How do we know if it is self-serving just because we can't find any other sources for it? They could be behind a paywall, in another language, or even in a print source. Accuracy should be the main point, and please don't point me to guideline after guideline about why you think I'm wrong. And again, like I said on the DYK talk page, I'm not talking about it being primarily based on those sources. I also never mentioned awards. I mentioned singing in those roles. Please don't underline text either. I have always thought of it as patronizing. SL93 (talk) 03:21, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for the underline – continuing at my talk. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 04:02, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the tag. Article is sourced to other references now Bruxton (talk) 04:10, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Honors

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I have added several news sources to the article. I am presently trying to reference a claim I came across about a major award. "In 2010, she was given the title of Honored Artist of the Russian Federation" I hope that I did not step on any arrangements in the article when I organized the references. i also did not remove any of the previous citations I just added the new citations to the end of sections that they support. Bruxton (talk) 17:46, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ru Wikipedia article

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I have linked ru:Манистина, Елена Александровна to the article. It is longer but only has three references. TSventon (talk) 18:43, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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