Talk:Eggplant/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Nightshade relation

Berries of the belladonna.

• My World Book Encyclopedia states that "the shiny purple fruit of the Eggplant, which is now a popular vegetable, was at one time belived to be poisonous." Which makes perfect sense because of its relation to and resemblance of some night shade species such as the deadly nightshade; which is why I added it. --Dagibit 18:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Proposal: Rename to eggplant?

Eggplant seems like the most common name for this in my dialect of English (Eastern/Southern US). I had not heard of Aubergine before I came upon this article. Maybe the majority of English speakers use this word, but if not I would propose a move. What do others think? Should I list a requested move? Is there more to discuss?--Andrew c 00:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

If the majority of British English speakers call it Aubergine, then we should apply the MOS's principle of staying with the current dialect rule. Otherwise it should be moved to eggplant. --Yath 03:27, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely, I just honestly do not know the answer to the question. And because I had never heard of Aubergine before, I've proposed this move.--Andrew c 03:56, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Do not move WP policy (as cited above) is quite clear on this. When there are regional variants, and none is clearly predominant world-wide, we stick with what the article started with. Other versions should of course be mentioned in the article (as they are here) and redirects should be in place for them (as they are here). --Macrakis 16:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Look!I live in australia and we ALL call it eggplant. if someone called it aubergine here we would call them a brit. in america they call it eggplant and in several other countries they call it eggplant. if this isnt a larger population than england and france then im really bad at maths. Eggplant is more dominant than 'aubergine'.so macrakis, you really cant add up!!!lol —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.229.1.152 (talk) 10:25, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Did you notice how it isn't clear whether "aubergine" is the common name in Britain? If you can clarify that question, please do so. The policy is clear enough, but we don't have enough knowledge to apply it yet. --Yath 16:38, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I did a little more research. Seraching google for "co.uk eggplant" yielded 116,000 hits, while "co.uk Aubergine" received 309,000 hits. (but looking at the hits, the later gives a lot of pages dealing with the color and proper names and other non-plant/food related items). Then searching an online cookbook for eggplant got 0, while aubergine got 2 pages worth. Then searching the bbc's recpies, eggplant gets 4 hits, aubergine gets 129. It does appear as if Aubergine is more commonly used in the UK. Pending further comment, I will withdraw the proposal. A side note, could someone tell me how the British pronounce Aubergine?--Andrew c 17:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Please do your homework before making proposals like this in the future. Thanks. --Macrakis 18:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

No need to scold me. I came to talk and asked the question 24 hours before I posted the requested move. Anyway, since you seem to know so much, can you tell me how to pronounce this word?--Andrew c 18:39, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Andrew, as a contributor to an encyclopedia, you should be able to answer this for yourself by consulting references such as the American Heritage Dictionary under aubergine; the Merriam-Webster Dictionary under aubergine, etc. --Macrakis 22:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

In UK English, the word is pronounced like the French aubergine, but rather anglicised, to give something akin to O-ber-zheen, where "zh" is the soft, French "j" sound. Ronline ✉ 12:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but the procedure outlined at WP:RM#How to request a page move did not appear to be followed, and consensus could not be determined. Please request a move again with proper procedure if there is still a desire for the page to be moved. Thank you for your time! -- tariqabjotu 03:49, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the page should be moved back to Eggplant, because that is the name it was originally written under. It was moved to "Aubergine" in August 2006 after being at "Eggplant" since March 2002. —Angr 14:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

That is correct. The move was actually made July 30, with no discussion. That was improper. Furthermore Australia, Canada, and the USA include a great majority of the native English speakers of the world. Unless there is a compelling reason given here, I will move it back in to eggplant shortly. Pollinator 14:44, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The page began as Aubergine on March 23, 2002. Is that not correct? Zzorse 04:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I was mistaken. I agree, the page should be moved back to "Eggplant". Zzorse 09:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

The move is accomplished; may take a bit more cleanup. Pollinator 06:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

We should take an idea from the Italian language wikipedia and move this article under Solanum melongena to please all. Scientific names are non regional and should be agreed by all. Otherwise, I agree on having it named eggplant. Even living in the British West Indies it's been called eggplant. 63.136.113.186 07:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

That would be a good idea, were it a consistent policy for all plants. But it generally is done of Wikipedia only for those that are not normally known by common names. Pollinator 06:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Lets ask how many Americans know what an Aubergine is. Then lets ask how many Britons know what an Eggplant is. Mghabmw 00:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I can say categorically that this plant is known virtually exclusively in the UK as an aubergine. However most people (if they have heard of an aubergine at all, since it's not especially common except among vegetarians) will be aware of the US variant. It is pronounced 'Oh-ber-gine', with a soft 'g' (it's the 'j' in French words like 'bonjour', although in English it often ends up identical in practise to 'sheen', depending on accent) and the stress on the first syllable. FreeMorpheme 12:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Ugh. Why is this page at "eggplant"? The page notes that this name is only the North American variation and that it has little linkage, etymologically speaking, to the roots of the word. I know that a majority of Wikipedians are American, but surely we should be avoiding systemic bias? I don't think from reading above there was any real consensus on the move from Aubergine to Eggplant or vice versa. This move discussion should go to someplace official where it will be seen by more editors. --163.1.165.116 04:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe UK English speakers generally will be that bothered what it's called. Older cookbooks in the UK always called it "eggplant", often giving "aubergine" as an alternative. The latter supplanted the older usage in the 1970's. Obviously, this is because a lot of Brits encountered the vegetable for the first time on holiday in France, and fell in with French usage. (France has always had a lot more culinary cachet in Britain the USA.) However, I'm sure we all know it used to be called an eggplant. Eggplants were rare and expensive in the '60's, and they often were actually white or cream, making the name meaningful. We only see these varieties rarely now.

Incidentally, it is totally untrue that aubergines/eggplants are rare or confined to vegetarians in the UK. They are sold in every supermarket, and by all vegetable shops and market stalls. They are very popular and many of us try to grow them. Their use grew throughout the '70's and '80's, when moussaka and ratatouille were very modish dishes in the UK. They are especially popular with South Asian and East European families in the UK, and I think the Punjabi name (baigan - from Persian) has probably tended to reinforce the use of "aubergine", which is basically the same word with an Arabic definite article. In both South Asian languages and UK English, the name is also often used to describe a particular shade of purple, and this is another reinforcing factor. Sjwells53 (talk) 16:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

'Aubergine' is the name used in the UK, and I first saw 'eggplant' used in an Australian book, I think. Is 'aubergine' used in the US? Personally, I would prefer 'aubergine', though I am not sure what others think. Gm33223 23rd February

I thought "eggplant" was Americanese for Avocado - 'cos it's a bit like a boiled egg (the seed being the hardened yolk); I'm bit astonished that that's what you call an Aubergine - where's the logic in that?! Clearly, as I've been saying for the last 5 years, we need an American-English wikipedia, and an English-English wikipaedia - just like Norwegian (nynorsk and bokmal) or Dutch/Flemish/Afrikaans or the various latin dialects have... then we could save an awful lot of time wasted on arguments between two sets of people who think they speak the same language, but each other's subtle variations often quite weird and sometimes unintelligible. You might say it's unnecessary duplication... but think about all the time saved from having less linguistic & culture clashes... and all that energy that people could be merrily deploying in making a wiki in their preferred dialect?!

(P.S. I and people where I live call 'em AWE-BUH-ZHEENZ with the stress on the first syllable; "eggplant" would not compute up 'ere in the north of England... some odd tropical indoor pot plant from Homebase perhaps?) "I'm just some bloke off t'inter'" (talk) 10:37, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Color

Isn't there also a dark purplish color called aubergine and/or eggplant? —Angr 13:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Found it at Eggplant (color). —Angr 14:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

There are various sizes and colours of this plant. I am Chickasaw/Cherokee and Creole French. My people go a long, long, way back in the United States history. I have been a chef for many years for various restaurants when health permitted. All this to say that I have never heard eggplant called aubergine until today. I speak French, so I've heard the word, but never knew it was eggplant. No matter what you call it, you are basically playing at semantics. Cook a good recipe and figure out that it just doesn't matter. More people worldwide know it as eggplant, no matter the root origins. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.110.48.83 (talk) 22:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Season?

When are aubergines in season? --Mathew5000 19:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Toxin

There is a sentence about toxicity in the history section. I have removed the recent contribution:

Raw eggplant contains the toxin solamine. Most of the nightshade family contain toxins in at least one part of the plan, but eggplants are noted for a high toxin quantity in the fruit. Solamine wont kill you, but it wont help you either. Besides this,

Because it was not sourced and contradicted current information. If anyone has a source for information on eggplant toxicity, this could help clear up the article. Until then, I have moved the new content here.-Andrew c 23:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I think this page should be titled Aubergine. The aubergine was the original name for it. Because Americans / Canadians changed the word, that does not mean this should become the original name. It originated in Asia, and most Asians would refer to it as Aubergine when speaking English (most of the Indian subcontinent). So from a historical point of view and the majority of the English speaking world, I think it is reasonable to rename this page AUBERGINE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.34.44.237 (talk) 18:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Turkish cuisine mention

The eggplant is used in cuisines from Japan to Spain. In particular, the Turkish cuisine is said to know one thousand recipes for preparing eggplant.

It seems to me that this kind of comment is neither truthful nor helpful i.e. the French have in excess of 5 million recipes for salad - I mean, I'm just guessing, but it seems likely. Is it useful information? No. Can anyone quantify it? Also probably no. If the author of the comment was referring to the number of recipes contained in a 'standard' national cookery book or compendium of recipes, then he/she should quote it. But I doubt that is the case, so I removed that part of the entry. And no, I bear no grudges against Turkish people and indeed have no reason to, should this spark a flame war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.198.40.202 (talk) 12:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Removed myth

NJ produces 2/3 of the world's eggplant - see www.pestmanagement.rutgers.edu/njinpas/CropProfiles/Eggplant2000data.pdf

This article needs a photo

An eggplant fruit cut in half. -SCEhardT 20:29, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Done -- I created Image:Eggplant-sliced.jpg and added it to the article. Kit 08:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! 65.190.89.154 (talk) 08:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Nightshades

If potatoes are vegetables and tomatoes are fruits, how can the eggplant be closely related to both of them? --In Defense of the Artist 21:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Paprikas, chillis, tomatoes and aubergines derive from flowers thus are technically fruits, though normally regrded and used like vegetables, potatoes are tubers or roots thus vegetables, as are the leaves of ethiopian eggplants. All are relatives of nightshades, and the geen leafy parts of tomatoes and potatoes are mildly poisonous and unpleasant to eat as are "greened" potatoes. JDN —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.172.235 (talk) 19:29, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

A fruit is the swollen, impregnated ovary of a flower. A vegetable is a more general term referring to the rest of the plant. The distinction is not taxonomic.-- 13:18, 16 April 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.122.53.154 (talk)

are you cool

'but what is the nutritional value of an eggplant?????'

My understanding is that eggplants have very little nutritional value at all. They have a good amount of fiber, but little else [1]. 128.197.81.223 21:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, it could still be a healthy thing to eat, even without much nutritional value. Eggplant is frequently used as a substitute for meat, as in eggplant parmesan, instead of veal parmesan. Thus, eggplant can lower your intake of bad fat and bad cholesterol. This is similar to how water has almost no nutrients, but, if it keeps you from drinking pop, or even worse, diet pop, then it's quite a healthy thing to drink. StuRat 01:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sick of hearing stuff like this, it's ridiculous on several counts.

If you want to be taken seriously, I don't think terms like "bad fat" or "bad cholesterol" will work too well.

If you want to be taken seriously, try signing your comments rather than commenting anonymously. What's wrong with the terms "bad fat" and "bad cholesterol"? --In Defense of the Artist 21:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Because they're real things? Is that why? Keep reaching for that online MD rainbow! 74.212.17.148 22:23, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Eggfruit

I noticed recently that Cole's supermarkets (in Australia) list eggplant as 'eggfruit', or at least they do in my area. I was wondering if anyone else has seen eggplants called 'eggfruits' anywhere else and whether this alternate name should be mentioned in the article? Thanks, --Colourblind 02:06, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

No, but get a picture. That would be interesting to have in the article! --In Defense of the Artist 21:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Nicotine content

Is it true that eggplant contains a significant amount of nicotine? Badagnani 01:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems it does! Look through the first few links on a Google search for "eggplant nicotine". For example, from an excellent study on breastfeeding and the use of alcohol, caffeine, nicotine and marijuana (I recommend glancing through this link): "avoid vegetables containing considerable amounts of nicotine - eggplant, green and pureed tomatoes and cauliflower. Ten grams of eggplant provides the same amount of nicotine obtained in three hours in a room with minimal tobacco smoke (Laurence 1985)." (For the context of this sentence, realize that 10g is very small -- a typical eggplant portion is more like 100g.) This link is very interesting, and I recommend it. But to answer your question: eggplant certainly contains copious amounts of nicotine. Tobacco is by far not the only plant to do so.

Let's get this added to the article, then. Badagnani 05:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

No. As per my calculations, if given .01mg of nicotine per 100g of eggplant, and the range nicotine content in cigarettes ranging from .8 to 1.3, then one would need to consume 20 pounds of eggplant in a single sitting to match the nicotine found in a single cigarette. I would call this nicotine content insignificant. WhoIsJohnGalt? 21:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnGaltJr (talk • contribs)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Eggplant/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Good article but lacks citation or refs -- Warfreak 07:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 07:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 20:31, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Etymology

Whether all the information added in this edit is correct, I don't know. But the information in the present version is clearly incorrect. The American English name "eggplant" is not derived from the French "aubergine". The plant seems to have been introduced to England from France, and was called "eggplant" because white or yellow cultivars produce fruits resembling eggs. When purple-fruited cultivars were introduced, the French "aubergine" seemed to be more appropriate; see the source given in the article, although this is only a website and not the best kind of source. Some of the edit needs to be retained. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:03, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

This definition deriving aubergine seems reasonable: "fruit of the eggplant" (Solanum esculentum), diminutive of auberge "a kind of peach," variant of alberge, from Spanish alberchigo "apricot". The "melongena" explanation from earlier today seemed unconvincing. I would trust your edited version, Peter. Suggest going ahead. --Zefr (talk) 18:16, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

The Online Etymology Dictionary is being misread in the current text. It reads (in a more helpful layout): 'aubergine (n.) : "eggplant," 1794, from French aubergine, "fruit of the eggplant" ...' It's saying that the meaning of "aubergine" is "eggplant", and the word "aubergine" is derived from the French word aubergine, which is the fruit of the eggplant. It's not saying that the English word "eggplant" is derived from the French word aubergine. I'll correct this bit. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:09, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

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Interspecific Hybrids

Taking this link from a recent edit: http://eggplantprebreeding.upv.es/Interspecific_hybrids.html Seeing if any of this info can or should be incorporated. Bod (talk) 18:27, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

• Here is the link to [2] Bod (talk) 18:32, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Evidence of the new hybrids being used? It was an unencylopedic entry, more work-in-progress than substance of actual implementation. Needs a review. --Zefr (talk) 18:34, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Salting and oil absorption

The BBC ref notwithstanding, there is no evidence for the idea that salting reduces the eggplant's ability to take up oil during cooking. It seems they've merely perpetuated an old wives' tale, which is now adopted into Wikipedia as "fact". Sorry, it's bunk. There are websites stating as much, including at least one I could find that did a side-by-side with salted and unsalted eggplant. 2607:FEA8:BFA0:47F:14AB:612E:A2B2:DE1D (talk) 06:03, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Copyedited in response, but you should try an edit with a better source which is needed for the paragraph. Salting may soften, but inhibiting the absorption of oil seems to be an illogical old kitchen tale. --Zefr (talk) 14:53, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 November 2019

aubvergine 212.139.51.149 (talk) 09:27, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. NiciVampireHeart 11:38, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 June 2020

include Malaysia, Singapore, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh instead of just South Asia.

Brinjal in Malaysia traced its root from Arabic via Portuguese Beringela Editeous (talk) 06:17, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 14:14, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2020

The image with the caption "Protesters in Bangalore promote the diversity of non-genetically modified eggplants in India." should be removed. It is not illustrative of the article or useful in any way, and appears to exist for political purposes favouring an anti-GMO bias. 71.236.204.7 (talk) 13:56, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

 Done. I agree. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:24, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 May 2022

I need to add information on cooking aubergines with Cheese from the Greek island of Samos. source https://www.samosfood.gr/en-us/RECIPES/MEALS/aubergines-with-cheese Stella Markantonatou (talk) 11:45, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 11:55, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Culture section

A section on eggplants in culture could mention:

• Cide Hamete Benengeli
• the eggplant emoji
• The eggplants in Francisco Ibáñez's comics.

--Error (talk) 03:56, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Change to Oxford English or Commonwealth English

Everywhere that the various terms for this plant are used uses Commonwealth English or Oxford English as its standard except for the US. The current language tag refers to "eggplant" being the article's common name, therefore, US English is used. But the name is also used in other countries where Commonwealth English is used. The plant itself is native to South Asia, where Commonwealth English is standard. The first non-stub version of the article also used Oxford or Commonwealth English, so there's really no justification for this article using US English as its standard. Therefore, I propose it be changed (preferably to Oxford to keep it neutral, but Commonwealth is fine as well). Getsnoopy (talk) 18:07, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Except that this article is written in American English, thus the bias for "eggplant," and the plant and fruit are referred to hundreds of different names in its native South Asia, in addition to "brinjal." I also have my doubts that it's referred to as "aubergine" in India.--Mr Fink (talk) 19:18, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

I think that's the point I'm making: the topic has strong ties to South and East Asia anyway. Regardless, the original article was written in Commonwealth/Oxford English, so that should be restored. I think changing the canonical title of the article is another matter entirely, which I'm not bringing up here, so the proposal isn't to change it to "aubergine", for example. Getsnoopy (talk) 22:54, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

It would seem highly illogical to use Commonwealth/Oxford English for the text and have "eggplant" as the title. Best left as it is. (See also Zucchini.) Peter coxhead (talk) 08:41, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

But they use eggplant in Canada, Australia and New Zealand, all of which are Commonwealth English countries, so I don't see any lack of logic here. As for zucchini, I can attest that people do not use the term in NZ, having lived there; they use courgette. Furthermore, that article seems to have evolved post-stub using US English, so the two situations are not quite comparable. Getsnoopy (talk) 22:20, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

You're beginning to drift. Are you proposing we change the title of the article, or are you proposing we change the language to British English?--Mr Fink (talk) 23:03, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Both. It's an aubergine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.131.106.2 (talk) 00:10, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

"" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect  and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 February 10# until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:20, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Australia

I thought this couldn't possibly be what you meant Zabararmon. That's why I reverted. In that case can you explain why you are removing Australia and references that are not for Australia – and now also removing New Zealand – and leaving the other countries? Invasive Spices (talk) 14 February 2022 (UTC)

1) Intro would be too long by adding Australia and New Zealand next to the US and Canada, where the name originated.

The name did not "originate" in North America. It was used in the UK initially when only white fruits were known, which thus resembled eggs. The change to "aubergine" appears to have followed the introduction of purple cultivars, for which "eggplant" doubtless seemed inappropriate. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:57, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

2) Under the appropriately titled “Etymology and Regional names”, said countries are already mentioned or, in the case of New Zealand, can be added with a list of other countries who also use the name eggplant Zabararmon (talk) 09:10, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree that this kind of thing should be in a dedicated section. All of them. Invasive Spices (talk) 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Etymology and regional names

In the From Arabic into Iberia and beyond subheading under Etymology and regional names, bringella and bringiela are given as Portuguese forms of the word, even stating "the Portuguese form bringella was borrowed into a variety of other languages." I can't find a source for this and don't believe these two words to be Portuguese, especially bringella as ll is not typically used in that language. beringela is also stated to be an earlier form even though beringela is a current form in Portuguese. Unless sources can be found, bringella and bringiela should be replaced by beringela and/or berinjela. 79.76.160.2 (talk) 17:33, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Go ahead and make the change. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:00, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

I can't, the article is protected. 79.76.160.2 (talk) 10:34, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Marked it with Template:Dubious. --Error (talk) 03:54, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Hello! I didn't notice this discussion back in 2019, but the source for these Portuguese forms is the Oxford English Dictionary under brinjal, n. (https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/23394). The etymology section there reads 'Etymology: Anglo-Indian adaptation of Portuguese bringella, bringiela, earlier beringela = Spanish berengena, al-berengena, < Arabic (al)-bāðinjān. The latter is < Persian bādin-gān, < Sanskrit vātin-gaṇa, all applied to the same fruit'. The OED is sometimes wrong, but it is an authoritative source, so I think we should accept its account unless someone finds a scholarly source to the contrary. I'll made this source clearer in the article and remove Template:Dubious. Alarichall (talk) 14:29, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

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