Talk:E. A. Underwood

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A fact from E. A. Underwood appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 26 March 2023 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that on his death, medical historian Edgar Underwood was described by The Times as one of the last of a dying race, the "canny Scot"?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2023/March. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/E. A. Underwood.

Wikipedia

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BorgQueen (talk) 15:49, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Article history

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... that faced with two final examinations at the same time, physician Edgar Underwood spent half his time on each, and passed both? Source: https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/87C1164B30D4CE0B71CCACCAF24A5BB8/S0025727300040382a.pdf/dr-e-ashworth-underwood-18991980.pdf
ALT1 ... that on his death, medical historian Edgar Underwood was described by The Times as one of the last of a dying race, the "canny Scot"? Source: "Dr E. A Underwood", The Times, 8 March 1980, p. 14.
- Reviewed: 2019 renaming of South African National Defence Force reserve units

5x expanded by Philafrenzy (talk) and Whispyhistory (talk). Nominated by Philafrenzy (talk) at 05:31, 5 February 2023 (UTC). Note: As of October 2022, all changes made to promoted hooks will be logged by a bot. The log for this nomination can be found at Template talk:Did you know nominations/E. A. Underwood, so please watch a successfully closed nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

QPQ review has not been provided after thirteen days despite a seven-day post-nomination limit; one needs to be supplied no later than seven days from now if this nomination is to avoid closure. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:45, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
QPQ added. Whispyhistory (talk) 00:35, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Full review needed now that QPQ review has been provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BlueMoonset (talk • contribs)

I shall review this. Storye book (talk) 17:09, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Thank you for a worthy article about a fine and hardworking doctor. I have issues with both hooks, but they are within DYK rules, so I am reluctantly passing them. My issues are as follows.

Regarding ALT0: yes it was a great achievement for Underwood to pass both of those prestigious and difficult exams at the same time, but the hook does not indicate the greatness of that achievement. I think that many readers will say, "Most of my school class passed more than two exams at the same time, so what?"
Regarding ALT1: "Canny" actually means knowing or aware. In England, at least, "canny Scot" traditionally referred to old-fashioned typecasting of Scots people as mean with money, so that the word, canny, referred to a knowing carefulness with getting and saving money. Thus the Times in the 80s had probably forgotten that, and was using the word (perhaps unintentionally) in a patronising or trivialising manner, bearing in mind that this was a great man who gave a lot to the community. Perhaps some indication of the Times' context for the statement might help?
No problem with the citation for ALT0. The citation for ALT1 is offline, but because it is quoted in the article, I am taking it in good faith.

I will pass this DYK, but any additional hook which clearly reveals the man's great contribution to medicine would be appreciated. Storye book (talk) 17:43, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You misunderstand, it was at exactly the same time, not one in the morning and one in the afternoon or in the same week.

Canny is not being used patronisingly here. It means shrewd and clever to my mind, not mean with money, and is clearly expressed in a laudatory way. The Times does not criticise people in obituaries for being mean with money. Philafrenzy (talk) 20:17, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Philafrenzy: If I have misunderstood, then the hooks must be unclear, and I won't be the only one to misunderstand. Like many other people, I have taken many exams, and have invigilated many exams. The hook says he spent half his time on each, so did he leave one exam room halfway through the allotted time, and enter the second exam room halfway through that one's allotted time, or did he get special dispensation to receive both exam papers at once, to deal with them as best he could during a time period allotted for a single exam? When invigilating exams where there was a time-clash, it was normal in my experience to let the candidate take one exam for the whole of its allotted time, then (allowing for an escorted bathroom break) escort them to the same or a different exam room, where he/she would be given the full allotted time for the second exam. Many students over the years would have experienced that solution, without any need to do each exam in half the allotted time. I'm not saying that it didn't happen, but because it is hard to believe, it is tempting to jump to the conclusion that he just did two exams in the same day. But more important than that, the hook doesn't make clear how impressive the achievement was, of passing either of those exams at all, let alone two in half the allotted time. As for canny, it is a word which has been used differently in different places, and I think maybe we need a bit more of the Times article to get the context. But please bear in mind that I have taken a neutral position here. I have passed it even though I don't like it. What could be fairer than that?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Storye book (talk • contribs) Storye book (talk) 16:28, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The source says "he disconcerted the authorities by not only obtaining the M.A. and the medical qualifications of the M.B. and Ch.B (Commended), but also the B.Sc. in pure science; this achievement involved the complication of two examinations at the same time, which was solved by spending half the time in one and half the time in the other examination."

I don't believe the exam hook is unclear at all but am open to a different way of phrasing it if you would care to suggest one. Philafrenzy (talk) 21:07, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Confirming green tick. I have no issue with the source or the article. I wish that I had not said anything controversial about the hook, now - it has just confused matters. Please leave the hooks as they are? Storye book (talk) 08:48, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:27, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]