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How Other Wikipedia Articles Handle the Name problem?

At least in the case of the Progressive Parties it's handled in this manner:

Progressive Party (United States, 1912)

Progressive Party (United States, 1924)

Progressive Party (United States, 1948)

Perhaps Republican Party (United States, 1792) is a possible alternative? Still, using the Republican appellation introduces problems in thousands of other Wikipedia articles that still use the Democratic-Republican terminology and may introduce some confusion to readers upon supplantation, as well as in regards to the Republican Party of the 1850s that still bares the name.

Anyway, and either way, at some point in the future I'll get around to adding a paragraph on the usage of "Democratic Republican" and "Democratic" by the party into this article. Settler 09:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Republican Party (United States, 1792) sounds like an approach that can remove this roadblock, Democratic-Republican is clearly unworkable. Skyemoor 18:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Unacceptable; unnecessary confusion and assistance to POV-mongers. There is no reason to give this article the name of any modern party. Septentrionalis 20:34, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
No reason to give the party a name it didn't originally have. That's revisionism. Skyemoor 00:00, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I would support this, and it has the beauty of consistency. I don't know why we should avoid the name of a modern political party, where it was the name of the party. History is full of recycled names and concepts, and it strikes me as more a matter of interest to pursue than a matter to avoid. Sam 14:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Settler, do you still support your suggestion of a name such as Republican Party (United States, 1792)? Skyemoor 14:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I won't stand in the way of it being renamed Republican Party (United States, 1792). It will just have to pass muster with some other people higher on the food chain so that it doesn't get redirected again and locked like some of the IMO not-so-great attempts like early Republican Party or Jeffersonian Republicans or whatever else. Then there's the headache of further loss of consistency in other articles that refer back to this one. On the list of concerns I have with this existing article, the naming issue isn't at the top of the list; rather I would want to see more focus on the party in the various States of the Union (currently relegated to the First Party System) and primary source materials from that era or the writings of people that lived through that era. At various points in the past couple of months I've incorporated some of the latter. Settler 15:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
And a more accurate account that is in First Party System: The Federalists may have ceased acting as a national party by 1820; but they existed outside Delaware. Septentrionalis 23:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

"Democratic Republican"

Was employed after 1800, if not earlier. All attempts to expunge this from the historical record and article will be met with correction by me. Settler 20:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I have now read the references you've supplied and found references as early as 1803, so that is the timeframe I've adjusted. Skyemoor 23:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
the D-R term existed but was very rare before 1810s. Out of hundreds of local Republican organizations before 1804, fewer than 10 have been found that used the term. Rjensen 06:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Democrats + Republicans != Democratic Republicans

Thomas Jefferson called his party "Republican." The parties didn't have conventions at that time, so Jefferson's writings provide the most offical definition of the party's name. I don't see why a name change would create any problem with ambiguities or references in other articles. Just redirect from "Democratic-Republican Party" to "Republican Party (Jeffersonian)" or "Republican Party (1792-1825)". Aside from the fact that it wasn't the actual name of the party, the phrase "Democratic-Republican Party" has confused many people into thinking that the Democrats and Republicans were factions of a Democratic-Republic Party that split and evolved into the modern Democratic and Republican parties. The Jeffersonian Republican Party split into the Whigs and the Jacksonians. There was no question of one faction being more democratic or republican than the other. Both groups were variously called "republican" and "democratic." It took the Jacksonians over ten years to settle on "Democratic Party" as their official name. The split was not ideological, but related strictly to opposition or support for Jackson, who was better known as a war hero than for any political view he held. The modern Republican Party was founded as an anti-slavery group in 1854. In short, the idea of Democrats and Republicans as two opposed groups or parties didn't arise for more a generation after the original Republican Party had dissolved and the issues involved were not connected to the 1825 split.Kauffner 06:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Well put. Skyemoor 08:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
We have a number of choices, all of them flawed. Any dates in the title are disputable and should be avoided; "Jeffersonian Republican" is a complete anachronism (and inaccurate), and should be avoided; use of a present party name is an unnecessary confusion.
Bosh. When is the truth an "unnecessary confusion"? Skyemoor 19:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
The major flaws with the present name are the hyphen;
And the fact that it isn't the party's name until much later. Skyemoor 19:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
and that they did not organize as a party until after Jefferson's election (and they were using "Democratic Republicans" and "Democratic-Republican Party" widely and quasi-officially by 1811).
POV. You only have a limited number of organizations that called themselves that name at that time. Skyemoor 19:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Democratic Republicans is the least bad of a bad set of choices;
Your opinion, which does not make for WP content. Skyemoor 19:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
which is why no choice has become universal outside Wikipedia. Septentrionalis 18:55, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
You've been shown how the majority of referenced textbooks use Republican. Skyemoor 19:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
No, we haven't. Even ignoring all of Griot's references, and taking Rjensen's statistics at face value, all they show is that a majority divide between "Republican" and "Jeffersonian Republican". They do so because both are weak choices: Republican invites confusion; Jeffersonian Republican is an inaccurate anachronism. Septentrionalis 20:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Too say Democratic-Republican would go against any usage of the terms used from the start. Republican solves that, and Republican (United States 1792) would resolve any confusion. Skyemoor 14:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Confusion

Is the following a confusion, or is it deliberate?

From its inception in 1792, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison chose the name Republican Party for the group.

This is unsourced. More seriously, it is obviously false. In 1792, Jefferson and Madison were still contending that of course they didn't belong to a party; Hamilton might. The quotations above show Jefferson did not use "republican party" until 1802, and even then he didn't use it as a proper noun, with capitalization, but as a generic term.Septentrionalis 20:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

1792: Jefferson calls his group in Congress & electorate "Republican"

here's the critical letter of Jefferson from 1792: TO T. M. RANDOLPH, JR. PHILADELPHIA, November 16, 1792. An attempt has been made to give further extent to the influence of the Executive over the Legislature, by permitting the heads of departments to attend the House and explain their measures viva voce. But it was negatived by a majority of 35 to 11, which gives us some hope of the increase of the republican vote. (note:ie Republican vote in Congress) However, no trying question enables us yet to judge, nor indeed is there reason to expect from this Congress many instances of conversion, though some will probably have been effected by the expression of the public sentiment in the late election. For, as far as we have heard, the event has been generally in favor of republican, and against the aristocratical candidates. (note: Republican candidates in 1792 election) In this State the election has been triumphantly carried by the republicans; their antagonists having got but 2 out of 11 members, and the vote of this State can generally turn the balance. Freneau's paper is getting into Massachusetts, under the patronage of Hancock; and Samuel Adams, and Mr. Ames, the colossus of the monocrats and paper men, will either be left out or hard run. The people of that State are republican: but hitherto they have heard nothing but the hymns and lauds chanted by Fenno. (note: J stresses role of party newspapers). Rjensen 20:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's "my friends are republicans; your friends are aristocrats." Observe that he avoids both capitals and the word Party. Septentrionalis 21:00, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
It's clear that TR sees an alignment in the Congress and in eelctions in different states. He calls his people republicans. Now let's track down the word "party". Rjensen 21:03, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I documented this a while ago in my files noted above in HTML and PDF form. From various sources I've read from, this is one of the first statements in relation to formation of a republican party. "The republican party, who wish to preserve the government in it's present form, are fewer in number. They are fewer even when joined by the two, three, or half dozen anti-federalists, who, tho they dare not avow it, are still opposed to any general government: but being less so to a republican than a monarchical one, they naturally join those whom they think pursuing the lesser evil. Of all the mischiefs objected to the system of measures before mentioned, none is so afflicting, and fatal to every honest hope, as the corruption of the legislature. As it was the earliest of these measures, it became the instrument for producing the rest, & will be the instrument for producing in future a king, lords & commons, or whatever else those who direct it may chuse. Withdrawn such a distance from the eye of their constituents, and these so dispersed as to be inaccessible to public information, & particularly to that of the conduct of their own representatives, they will form the most corrupt government on earth, if the means of their corruption be not prevented. The only hope of safety hangs now on the numerous representation which is to come forward the ensuing year. Some of the new members will probably be either in principle or interest, with the present majority, but it is expected that the great mass will form an accession to the republican party." --Thomas Jefferson, May 23, 1792 Letter to George Washington
Jefferson all the way until his death in 1826 referred to the existence of the Republican party in Congress, and that there were Federalists and their new recruits that had hijacked the Republican name while enacting Federalism with the assistance of apostates from within their ranks. Settler 21:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
In 1793 Jefferson and Washington talk about the "republican party" meaning the D-R party. p 394 Jefferson's Works

Jefferson Conference with President Washington August the 6th, 1793. regarding "what is called the republican party here," ...I could undertake to assure him [Washington], from my intimacy with that party in the late Congress, that there was not a view in the republican party as spread over the United States, which went to the frame of the Government.... He [Washington] said he believed the views of the republican party were perfectly pure, but when men put a machine into motion, it is impossible for them to stop it exactly where they would choose" So we have Washington and Jefferson discussing the "republican party" and using those words in 1793. Rjensen 21:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Note, however, that the phrasing clearly implies that Jefferson is intimate with the party, but is not a member of it. Septentrionalis 21:41, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

This edit is a marked improvement. Thanks. Septentrionalis 21:41, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Jefferson was not a member of Congress (he was secretary of state) and so he was not a member of the party in congress. Madison was the head of the congressional party. Rjensen 22:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Precisely; Jefferson is not speaking of a party in the modern sense of the word at all. Septentrionalis 23:04, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Madison on party 1792: James Madison Substance of a Conversation with the President, 5 May, 1792. Madison Papers (Congress ed vol 1, p.554)

"that with respect to the spirit of party that was taking place under the operations of the Government, I was sensible of its existence…that in one party note: Republicans—but no name used there might be a few who, retaining their original disaffection to the Government, might still wish to destroy it, but that they would lose their weight with their associates by betraying any such hostile purposes; that although it was pretty certain that the other note: Federalists, no name used were, in general, unfriendly to republican Government, and probably aimed at a gradual approximation of ours to a mixed monarchy, yet the public sentiment was so strongly opposed to their views, and so rapidly manifesting itself, that the party could not long be expected to retain a dangerous influence.... [as to successor to Washington:] With respect to Mr. Adams, his monarchical principles...with his late conduct on the representation bill, had produced such a settled dislike among republicans every where, and particularly in the Southern States, that he seemed to be out of the question. Rjensen 23:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

"while most political science textbooks prefer Democratic Republican." I didn't see the evidence for this claim, who did the research? Skyemoor 10:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I found that by looking at the pol sci textbook websites, and the AP Government website. Specifically:
  1. American Government: Continuity and Change, 2006 Election Update (Hardcover):8/e 2007 | Longman | Cloth; 832 pp ISBN-10: 0321434625 | ISBN-13: 9780321434623 Karen O'Connor Larry Sabato
  2. Government in America: People, Politics, and Policy, Brief Edition:8/e 2006 | Longman | Paper; ISBN-10: 0321318137 | ISBN-13: 9780321318138 George Edwards Martin Wattenberg Robert Lineberry

http://wps.ablongman.com/long_edwards_gab_8/0,10654,2189791-,00.html

  1. Tannahill American Government: Politics and Policy 8th Edition Companion Website. http://wps.ablongman.com/long_tannahill_ag_8/0,10611,2145317-,00.html
  2. We the People: An Introduction to American Politics 5th edition by Benjamin Ginsberg, Theodore J. Lowi, and Margaret Weir pp 337-43
  3. Challenge of Democracy Seventh Edition ch 8 Kenneth Janda, Northwestern University Jeffrey M. Berry, Tufts University Jerry Goldman, Northwestern University. Rjensen 11:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


Thanks for posting these, but how does this small subset translate into "most"? Skyemoor 11:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I looked at some others indirectly using their test banks. Please go ahead and look at other textbooks and tell us what you find! Note that the AP Government test uses D-R terminology, and has over 100,000 students a year. Rjensen 11:53, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Niles Register

The Niles Register is a wonderful source, but it was not partisan. The ANB says, " So determined was he to be objective and thorough in his task that he scorned influence from politicians, endorsed no individual political candidates, rejected all advertisements, and refused all anonymous materials. " Stephen M. Zeigler. "Niles, Hezekiah"; http://www.anb.org/articles/16/16-01202.html; American National Biography Online Feb. 2000. Access Date: Tue Oct 3 22:49:21 MDT 2006 The DAB article by Boroadus Mitchell says: " In politics, Niles was a Jeffersonian until 1816 or 1817, when he described himself as a no-party man. On Jan. 10, 1824, he wrote: "I cannot believe that either [Jackson or Calhoun] will be elected, and should regret votes thrown away. I esteem both, personally and politically; and though my private wish is rather for Mr. Adams, I shall be content to accept any other than Mr. Crawford." When Jackson came into office in 1829, Niles differed sharply with his policies, and became a Whig. " Rjensen 04:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

What follows from this? Niles was a DR in 1811; if he avoided party propaganda, so much the clearer his example on usage. The rest of this says that he declined to follow either of the two major branches dividing the party in 1824, and that he finally left Jackson's branch altogether. That he was not a Democrat makes his use of Democratic-Republican more interesting, not less. Septentrionalis 05:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Niles is interesting--but who says he only used D-R? My understanding is that he reprinted articles from all over and did not impose his own terminology. Rjensen 05:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Does the present text imply that? It doesn't say it; but again, if he reprinted the words, that testifies to general usage. The point that it was not an official name is worth making; thank you. Septentrionalis 05:12, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
"if he reprinted the words, that testifies to general usage." No, that simply means he reprinted articles. You haven't even attempted to establish general usage at the Register. Skyemoor 20:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Footnotes

I simplified the footnotes by moving some of the full reference titles that were there into the Reference section. The usage of templates and more formal citations, which seemed like a good idea at the time when I introduced them into the article, was beginning to clutter it; so I reduced their usage within the article. Settler 02:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Mitford and democracy

The view that Athenian government was a form of anarchy was general during the time period considered here (i.e. pre-George Grote) and not particular to William Mitford. If you want to single out one historian, Edward Gibbon was more widely read and influential than Mitford. It's a view that can be traced back to Thucydides, who was first translated into English by Thomas Hobbes in 1628.(This is my source. [Subscription required.]) It is striking ironic that the Federalists used the word "democracy" in a derogatory way. They would have had first-hand experience with New England town meetings, whose structure was very similar to that of the Athenian government.Kauffner 01:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The visible portion of this quotes Gibbon's private letters of 1791, which are unlikely to have been influential on the Washington administration (and which are presumably part of the Burke controversy). Is there more in the subscription text? I do not recall anything from Decline and Fall but a passing mention of the Thirty Tyrants, who were not democrats. Septentrionalis 16:32, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Found the full text; Gibbon is only a peg to hang this on; while I have no doubt that Cartledge is right in estimating what Gibbon's estimate of democracy was, there is no evidence that this was visible in the Decline and Fall. The actual article text skips from John Gillies to Mitford to Lord Byron.
Cartledge's point is that the eighteenth century abhorred, and the Federalist deplored, direct democracy. link to text. This is true, and should be clear in our article. Kauffner is right that this is odd among New Englanders; but they may have seen New England as successfully managed democracy. Septentrionalis 16:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the word "democracy" ever implied direct democracy only, much less a hostility to the idea of representation. The meaning of the Greek root is identical to the meaning Latin root that the word "republic" is derived from. In ancient Greece, Thebes was a representative democracy. (The Theban federation was arguably more democractic than the Delian League run by Athens, since the citizens of federated cities could also vote for central government representatives).
Jefferson drew up a detailed proposal to create town meeting system in Virginia, so he obviously didn't see direct democracy as incompatable with republicanism. Representives were necessary when the geographic unit was too large for citizens to discuss the issues face-to-face. Representive vs. direct democracy is a thus a technical issue, not an ideological one. Historically, the Athenian government has been much condemned for executing Socrates and because it lost to Sparta in the Peloponesian War, so there were other issues involved besides the representative vs direct issue.Kauffner 09:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Jefferson supported direct democracy, but Jefferson was -er- very much opposed by the gentlemen of whom you speak. I believe the use of Socrates in political discussion dates from Mill, but I am open to correction. What Cartledge, a quite reputable classical historian, says on the subject is:
It was a like aversion that motivated the American Founding Fathers when they consciously repudiated the ancient Greek model of democracy for their fledgling federal republic (see Barry Strauss' article in this issue). 'When the deliberative or judicial powers are vested wholly or partly in the collective body of the people', wrote Alexander Hamilton, 'you must expect error, confusion and instability'. What was required, rather, was 'representative' democracy; that is, government for, but neither of, nor by, the people, 'where the right of election is well secured and regulated, and the exercise of the legislative executive and judicial authorities is vested in select persons'. This form of democracy, as Jeremy Bentham hastened to emphasise on this side of the Atlantic, was the antithesis of the ancients' direct democracy.
He is plausible, and I think consensus, on the Federalist; both Hamilton and Madison, as I read it. Septentrionalis 15:24, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
In principle, Republican Rome was a direct democracy as well. Popular assemblies wrote the law, subject to to the "advice" of a Senate made up of former elected officials. I still think the republic vs democracy issue is separate from the representative vs direct issue. Given 18th century technology, you could not create a direct democracy for an area as large as the U.S. Hamilton was just making a virtue out of necessity.Kauffner 11:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I believe you are mistaken, or at least misleading. I would certainly not say any of the several concilia and comitiae "wrote the law"; they could enact or refuse proposals by magistrates, but did not amend. At Athens, quite clearly, one did not need to hold office to propose legislation, and the Assembly did amend. And I would require a very good source to dismiss the Federalist's arguments that representative democracy gave office to the better citizens as making a virtue of necessity. Septentrionalis 17:14, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Rome had 10 tribunes elected annually by the Popular (plebian) Assembly and any one of them could introduce legislation. No meeting of large group can get work done if just anyone can propose anything or without preparation by a leadership group. In Athens, there was a representative legislature called the Council of Five Hundred which set the agenda for the Eklesia (popular assembly).Kauffner 13:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Not all legislation was prepared by the Boule; for example, the second Mytilene Decree was not. Septentrionalis 23:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

capitalize "Republican" or lower case?

Madison used capital R to refer to the Republican party: To Madison to Jefferson, March 2d, 1794. I see by a paper of last evening that even in New York a meeting of the people has taken place, at the instance of the Republican party, and that a committee is appointed for the like purpose. [from Smith, ed, The Republic of Letters: The Correspondence of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, 1776-1826 (1994) vol 2 p 832 Rjensen 14:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's keep in mind that the capitalization practices of the period differed significantly from current standards. Considering 1) that the "party" at that time bore little resemblance to a political "Party" as currently understood and 2) that the practice at the time was to capitalize terms much more commonly than is done today, I don't think we can read too much into the stylings of individual contemporaneous documents. That is getting into Original Research. What is needed are citations from authoritative secondary sources. I really don't have a bone in the matter one way or the other -- but so far I've not seen any convincing evidence one way or the other regarding "the original name" of the party, certainly not sufficient for the article to make a bald assertion of fact. older ≠ wiser 15:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
On "party"-- the Jeffersonians and Federalists were inventing the modern political party--with voter loyalty, newspapers, state and local organizations, campaign managers, candidates, tickets, slogans, platforms, linkages across state lines, patronage etc, as explained in this article. (previously "party" meant a grouping in Parliament). The new parties are "modern" enough. See Chambers (1963) for extended discussion.Rjensen 16:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
It is certainly a somewhat transitional stage, especially the early history of the "original name". I don't think it is "modern enough" to warrant the implication of equivalence in the introdutory sentences. older ≠ wiser 16:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Then the term "Democratic-Republican Party" should not be used. Skyemoor 09:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
And since the difference is largely that the eighteenth century capitalized common substantives where we would not, this is fairly good evidence against "republican party" then being a proper name at all. Septentrionalis 17:22, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
The preface of this article is becoming a bit too long again; isn't this what the "Party name" section was created to help resolve? Settler 18:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. So I made a simple change up front that is addressed in the Party Name ection. Skyemoor 09:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Odd sentence

The Jeffersonians usually took the lead in inventing new party devices, but the Federalists started a year or two sooner, and invented the national convention.

This is sufficiently confusing to me that I'm not sure whether I even disagree with it. It certainly can be read: "The Jeffersonians took the lead, but the Federalists were first." which is a contradiction. If it means, as I guess, that the DR's used most devices of partisanship first, that would require much more explicit citation, because it is clearly controversial; the common understanding appears to be that the Federalists had the first Philadelphia party paper, for example. Septentrionalis 17:21, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

well I wrote it and it is confusing. :( The Federalists built their party first, but the Reps caught up by inventing more techniques. The Reps were much better at grass roots organizing. On the one hand the Feds had more newspapers as late as 1800. On the other the Feds badly neglected the frontier areas where the fastest growth was happening. Rjensen 15:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Republican party

This is better than Republican Party; it is at least a name found in the DR correspondence. I have now read through Cunningham 1957, and almost all his quotations (all, of course, by March 1801) have some form of republican (never, however, Republican Party, so capped). Rjensen and I have gone into this at some length. There is also an issue of technical accuracy: "Republican party" was not the earliest, the "original name", even assuming that means anything for an informal league, not a body corporate.

In this form, Skyemoor's hobby horse is merely unnecessary and pointless repetition, not active misrepresentation; I wish to acknowledge the improvement. Septentrionalis 23:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

"merely unnecessary and pointless repetition" is a sword that cuts both ways. I have no axe to grind; some seem uncomfortable with a name that was reused by a later party. I'm strictly an independent personally. Skyemoor 23:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Then why are you grinding it? An inaccurate and confusing statement is undesirable on both grounds. Septentrionalis 00:10, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Precisely the reason I'm correcting your POV insertions. Skyemoor 11:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
their early partisans formed democratic societies is both Cunningham's fact and Cunningham's phrasing; not close enough to be a copyvio, but partisans and democratic societies are both his; early is not, but he has room to make clear he is discussing 1792-4. Removal of sourced references approaches vandalism; the source here is pp. 63-6 of the work cited. 17:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
The importance of this is not clear; we are talking about parties and you are referring to societies. Provide support for the widespread use of Democratic-Republican from the start or quit harrassing this group. Skyemoor 17:03, 20 October 2006 )
I'm not harrassing the group; I'm joining Bkonrad in reverting unsourced, inaccurate and partisan edits by a POV-pusher who has presented no evidence or sources.
I've supplied many references which obviously annoy you as you remove them. Don't then complain that there are no references.
(The ones you borrowed from Jensen show Jefferson and Madison writing about other people.)
(!) They show clearly that they were referring to the Republican party. How much clearer proof do you need than primary sources from the party cofounders?? Skyemoor 18:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Do try reading Cunningham's book; or indeed try citing the talk page for what it actually says.
Do try looking at the dozens of other books, instead of hanging your hat on one source from the 1950s. And look at the historians and contemporary history textbooks, instead of children's books, as you've provided in the past.
Then again, an editor who makes a citation request for information fully sourced in the footnote at the end of the sentence, as here, is not editing with full seriousness. But this is an editor so partisan that he objects to the presence of Democratic-Republican Societies in a masked link. Septentrionalis 17:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The partisan here is the one who refuses to recognize the use of Republican party by both Jefferson and Madison, and who also cannot provide a source for the use of DR party affiliation before 1803. I'm an independent, btw, so whatever your political predilections are, they should be left out of WP. Skyemoor 18:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
This ridiculous back and forth with the name has now brought on an anonymous user who is doctoring direct quotations and screwing up all the party names. (sigh) Settler 19:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Evolved over time is perfectly acceptable. I don't see it making much difference in force; but if Skyemoor does, some reader will. So I will defend it. Septentrionalis 17:32, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Federalist republicans

I find this curiosity fascinating; and it makes clear that Republican and Federalist were adjectives in the 1790's. And with such things, it is usually better to include them correctly than wait until some helpful newbie comes across, e.g., a primary source about Virginia "American Republicans" supporting Adams. Better to get it right once than go into a include-delete-protest-explain cycle. Septentrionalis 18:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I fully consent to having the DR uses in text and the Federalist ones in a footnote. Septentrionalis 18:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
the problem is that the information is confusing, irrelevant and unimportant. Our job is to help users see the big picture and information that detracts from that does not belong. Cunningham had many hundreds of pages to work with we have about 8. Rjensen 18:58, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Precisely because the whole topic of partisan nomenclature at that time is so confusing (and arguably interesting) it should be included and described in the article. older ≠ wiser 19:10, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
And here Pmanderson|Septentrionalis argued just the opposite in James Madison's article, "We are a work of general reference, and we cannot assume any but the most basic competence in our readers; plainly, much of our readership is in junior high school." Skyemoor 02:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Looks like apples and oranges. Here we are are talking about how extensively the delineation of the various terms should be explicated, in Madison, it looks as though you are pushing for a rather simplistic and anachronistic characterization of Madison as creating the "Republican Party", which is just plain misleading to the casual reader. older ≠ wiser 02:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Misleading???? Every historian says Madison (&TJ) created the Rep party, and Madison and TJ are calling it the "republican party" by 1793. So what's the misleading part? Rjensen 02:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
It is misleading to the casual reader, for whom the "Republican Party", without any other qualification or context, means the modern GOP. There is a difference in assumed knowledge between writing by and for historians and writing for a general audience. older ≠ wiser 12:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
"Precisely because the whole topic of partisan nomenclature at that time is so confusing (and arguably interesting) it should be included and described in the article." You can't have your cake and eat it too... Skyemoor 20:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
What is that supposed to mean? older ≠ wiser 22:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Most of the sources in the limited online Library of Congress have the Federalists calling themselves "Federal Republicans," attacking Jefferson and the "democrats." Another common appellation of what is now called the "Federalist Party" was the "Federal party" at the time--"Federal" being an adjective, and "Federalist" as a noun. The well-known Federal anti-War-of-1812 newspaper was called the "Federal Republican." Settler 19:24, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Lead in paragraph

"The Democratic-Republican Party was one of the political parties that dominated U.S. political life during the First Party System, from the 1790s to the 1820s. The party was originally called the Republican Party, but the name evolved over time, and the party was known as Democratic-Republican Party by 1815."

This pretty much sums up the situation, though one could say "republican party" or "Republican party" instead. It is concise and does not leave the reader with ambiguity about how it evolved. Skyemoor 23:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The only problem I have with this is that that ("Republican Party", however capitalized, and with or without the party), was not the only name for that group in the formative stages.
What other names did Jefferson and Madison call it? Are you referring to what the Federalists called it? If so, then we need to re-examine the name of the Federalists to add monarchists, aristocrats, monocrats, and Anglomany, as those were labels (among others) attributed to them. Skyemoor 11:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
There was no organizational convention in which the guys got together and decided "hey, let's form a political party and call ourselves the 'Republican Party'". I think any phrasing stating "the original name was" or that it was "originally called" is inherently problematic and inaccurate. older ≠ wiser 01:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
If that is truly the case, then one must eliminate the reference to any point in time that such a group had not had an organizational convention. When was the first organizational convention for the Democratic-Republican party? Then we need to start the article at that point, and start another article about the early Jefferson/Madison movement. This may be the only compromise to the arguments of the Federalists here. Skyemoor 11:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
it never had, or needed, any organizational convention; its greatest level of formal organization was the Congressional caucus, and the quote from Gallatin should make clear how little that usually amounted to. Septentrionalis 19:02, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
So then, using your logic as espoused here and at the James Madison article, we would need to change the eventual name to "Democratic-Republican" party. Yet I doubt not that you would resist the application of your rules to your POV labels. Skyemoor 19:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

First Official Name

"The first official name came with the first national Democratic convention in 1832 which used "Republican Party."" Why was this removed? Is it incorrect? Skyemoor 15:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't know what would make it more official than its usage prior to their convention. It certainly wasn't mutually exclusive with Democratic, as partisan electioneering tracts during the campaign of 1827-1828 employed both names. Democratic would be more frequently employed after the convention, and Democratic Republican was still hanging around for awhile too. We should just go by whatever they were mostly calling themselves as about as official as it gets, whatever the year was, for the purpose of an encyclopedia. Settler 15:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed the sentance because the 1832 convention is discussed in the "heritage" section and I thought it was just repeated information. Do you mean to imply that this convention was a DR convention? If so, that would make Jackson a DR president, which is not consistent with the terminology used elsewhere in the article.Kauffner 03:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Opposed Britain?

I'm not sure this is correct in the 1790s. A more correct sentence would read "Republicans generally supported good relations with France (before 1801) and opposed an alliance with Great Britain, preferring to remain independent of either nation". Thoughts? Skyemoor 10:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

In 1793-96 The Reps strongly supported the 1777 alliance with France and wanted a trade war with Britain--and were willing to risk real war. See Miller Federalist Era p 148-49 for details.Rjensen 01:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
"Trade war" is a polemical description of a proposal for embargo. There was less risk of war in 1795 than in 1807; in 1807 Britain had an army to spare. Septentrionalis 21:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Name confusion

"although "democrat" and "republican" had been used almost equivalently in 1793 (and, for the political philosophy, earlier.)" Who was using these two names almost equivalently in 1793? Jefferson? Madison? No. Other members of congress that tended to vote with Madison? Provide citations please. "Others", such as the democratic societies? That would belong in that article then. See Malone on the subject; III, 162,

"They referred to themselves as Demcorats again by 1812.[1]" This is plainly wrong as worded. I've provided references that show both Madison and Jefferson using Republican and republican when referring to the party after 1812, so this would have to be worded with a much more narrow focus to be considered accurate.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Skyemoor (talk • contribs) .

Here's an example, for whoever rewrites it in a more narrower focus:

DEAR SIR,--I received, by the last mail, your welcome favor of the 10th instant. The newspapers had prepared me for the triumphant vote which restores a prodigal sister to the bosom of the Republican family, and evinces a return of grateful feelings for a revolutionary worthy. I congratulate you very sincerely on this event, with every wish that your administration may be as happy to yourself as I am confident it will be propitious to the welfare of those who have called you into it; and I may add, of those who resisted the call. The people are now able every where to compare the principles and policy of those who have borne the name of Republicans or Democrats with the career of the adverse party; and to see and feel that the former are as much in harmony with the spirit of the Nation and the genius of the Government as the latter was at variance with both.

James Madison's letter to William Eustis, 1823. Transcript. Settler 18:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. Septentrionalis 19:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Skyemoor's edits of the 29th

Unsupported - Does not refer to the name of the national party
    • It is dated August 11,1812 - not only in Madison's term of office, but before his re-election.
    • It is the first of several such instances in that volume of Madison's papers.
We would need to evaluate each on its own merits
    • Abolishing is removal of a sourced fact, which is deprecated.
  • I moved the unsupported sentence and reference to this page, which is acceptable.
I hope this clears up your confusion. Skyemoor 02:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • rvt vandalism of names in this section)
    • This changes Democratic-Republican back to Republican from an anon edit. Neither is vandalism; both are partisan; and I will leave whichever is easier, in repairing Skyemoor's other mischief.
You use the word vandalism much more loosely than I, and your mischief is more pervasive. Skyemoor 02:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
And we are to assume all of your statements are NPOV? And you prefer to mix up the chronology so that it is not 'flat'?
    • due to the many name changes, history textbooks seek to reduce confustion by sometimes referring to this party as the Jeffersonian Republican Party, and its members as "Jeffersonians."
      • As a generalization, this is unsupported by the evidence. JR is rare, in part because it is an anachronism; the OED's first citation is from 1838, and does not capitalize "republicanism"; it was introduced as a clarification in 1888.
Note the use of the word "sometimes". This use is backed up by references, so your complaint is specious.
    • Federalist" and "Republican" were common words in the 1790s,
      • No, they were positive, that is what Cunningham (and Dahl) say, and why they were used.
    • the Virginia Federalists capitalized on the more popular name by calling themselves the "American Republican Ticket" in 1800
      • Unsourced, and if Skyemoor had consulted the source he would have found that republican was more popular in Virginia. Pointlessly misleading.
Re-read the sentence and you'll see that I was referring to 'republican' being more popular.
    • Equally, the republicans called Federalists "aristocrats", "monarchists", and "monarcrats", decrying Hamilton's (prior) openly professed adoration of Britain and the British governing structure.
      • Irrelevant here (and partisan:
This was an action by the party, so it makes perfect sense to mention it where similar actions are discussed by the opposing part. Partisan? I suppose if one were a federalist they might think so...
      • Even Hamilton's deplorable speech at the Convention did not amount to "adoration")
adoration. (n.d.). n.
  1. The act of worship.
  2. Profound love or regard.

Hamilton clearly expressed profound regard for Britain and the British governing structure. Unless you choose to disagree....? The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved October 29, 2006, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/adoration

I'm glad to see Skyemoor has learned to cut and paste from a dictionary; it arouses hope that he may eventually recognize that even the metaphorical use of "adoration" is excessive here. Septentrionalis 21:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
    • The national party gradually assumed this name, until it split into Democrat and Republican in the 1920s.
      • I trust 1920's is a typo; although the change is the only warrant for the uncivil sneer about chronology in the edit summary.
The 9 should have been an 8. As to the sneer, physician heal thyself.
      • More seriously, calling the National Republicans Republicans is an error, more confusing and less forgivable than calling the subject of this article Republicans: it is neither contemporary nor retrospective usage.
Odd, then you strenuously disagree with Madison and many others of the time period, but that's nothing new.
      • Most seriously, the suggestion that the DR's split into two parties is nonsense; it forgets the Crawford men and (insofar as they differ) the Calhoun men.
Feel free to add more splinters.

The national party gradually assumed this name, until it split into Democrat and Republican in the 1920s.

Um, what the heck? That is not correct at all. I'm going to have to change it. (n/m got there before I did.) If you want to indulge yourselves in some original research into party nomenclature, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better source here than anywhere else on the English language web (scroll down). Yeah, I'm tooting my own horn here. Settler 17:16, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, the 9 should be an 8, and see similar discussion above.
And kudos on the sources; you've clearly pulled together a considerable amount pertinent documentation. Thanks Skyemoor 03:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
And the discussion of party name is now, I think, finally all in one section. It needs consolidation there; but that may be less urgent. Septentrionalis 17:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Pmanderson's edits of the 29th

1890's

However, America's modern party structure, with a liberal, economically populist Democratic Party and a conservative, market-oriented Republican Party, did not arise until the 1890s

This article should not attempt to include any generalizations about twentieth-century American politics. Least of all this one, which is thoroughly debateable: an anon already altered populist to centrist. As a statement about the early twentieth century, which was presumably the intention of populist, it is thoroughly dubious: that TR the Regulator more market-oriented than Bryan, Parker, or Wilson may be arguable, but not here, and not in Wikipedia's voice. Septentrionalis 17:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Skyemoor 11:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

"The party was especially hostile to Britain"

Everything I've read mentions caution about becoming entwined in alliances with European powers, but no inherent 'hostility'. And the relationship changed over time, so a brushstroke phrase removes too many complexities to be valid on its face. There were serious aggravations from a number of British actions, including impressment, neutral rights, and failure to live up key points in prior treaties that ultimately culminated in the declaration of war. But to use the phrase 'especially hostile' implies an undeserved aggressive belligerence, so please share with us the evidence you have assembled to support that position. Skyemoor 18:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

re 1793-94 try Miller (Federalist era p 149) "Republican newspapers told the people of the US that Great Britain was "reduced to her last gasp, and were Americans to seize her by the throat, she would expire in agonies at her feet." Republicans expected to strangle the former mother country neatly and effectively without resorting to more sanguine forms of mayhem.... It became an article of faith among Republicans that "commercial weapons" [eg boycotts] would suffice to bring Great Britain to any terms the US chose to dictate." That is called brinkmanship these days--economic warfare hoping Britain would concede and not resort to war. Rjensen 12:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Skyemoor's partisanship

Skyemoor should remember that WP:MOS is a {{guideline}}; it's not set in stone, it does have exceptions.

And those are defined however Pmanderson|Septentrionalis wants them to be defined, it seems.

Beyond that, it doesn't say what he thinks it does; there is no warrant there for bolding a confusing name like Republican Party or an anachronism like Jeffersonian Republicans.

Oddly enough, as soon as we talk about WP:MOS, someone comes along and deletes the reference to bolding alternate names in the first sentence. Mere coincidence, or did someone call in a favor? See http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style&diff=84471548&oldid=84283202
Here's what it used to say;
Use boldface in the first sentence for synonyms of the article title (including acronyms); for example, Río de la Plata:
The Río de la Plata (from Spanish: “River of Silver”), also known by the English name River Plate, as in the Battle of the River Plate, or sometimes (La) Plata River.
This is not, of course, a general sentiment that bolding is to be done with restraint; it's the CABAL. What else could it be? Septentrionalis 18:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

If this continues, I will mark and defends tags guarding against these misrepresentations. Septentrionalis 01:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Calling this edit a compromise, when it suppresses the consensus name of the party and bolds the confusion, is ineffable. Septentrionalis 02:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
It appears you have taken the high road and decided to compromise afterall. I will accept that compromise first sentence. Skyemoor 03:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Jeffersonian

Mathews Dictionary of Americanisms (1951) p 902 has several cites for "Jeffersonian" in use 1799-1804 to designate a Republican candidate in state elections

1803: "Sprigg (a thorough going Jeffersonian...was the democratic candidate."
1804 "Randolph [and his followers] who may be especially styled "Jeffersonian Democrats"
1807: "This man is the leader of what is termed the Jeffersonian Mobocracy"
1805: X was "no monarchist but a good christian and a fine Jeffersonian republican" Rjensen 03:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I knew Jeffersonian was that old, but OED dates Jeffersonian Republican from 1838. Fine. (What is the source for the 1805 quote? only it uses JR.) Septentrionalis 04:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

In order to effectively use [online article], one must first register at at http://journals.cambridge.org . I too thought the link was broken on first try.

"The Republican Party, founded by Jefferson and Madison, was swiftly renamed the Democratic Republican Party and its successor, in 1828, the Democratic Party." Settler, which part of Dahl's quote do you take exception to? He doesn't give a timeframe for the transformation from Republican to Democratic-Republican, so "swiftly" is therefore relative and ambiguous. Skyemoor 11:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

For one, it's obvious that he just copied and pasted from any random encyclopedia. Reality was quite different; there was no universal adoption of any single one name throughout the Union during the time period of 1792-1840 or so, though Republican came the closest to a preeminent name. Our article here is quite pedantic in about every facet; his statement is misleading. It's probably enough for 4th-grade history text books for social studies class or something, but our article is more detailed than anything they'd read. Settler 12:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Doubtful, see Robert A. Dahl Septentrionalis 17:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
It's demonstrably misleading, regardless of any of his credentials. Settler 17:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
That half-sentence? Yes, and I've removed it before now. Septentrionalis 17:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Can we take it that, in your opinion, this reference can be construed to be inferior on the whole? If so, I'll not use it in the future. Skyemoor 13:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
The Dahl quote--half a sentence, unfootnoted and vague on dates--is poor quality. Let's please not use it. Rjensen 13:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, but I was referring to the article itself.
The article is far more detailed, and complex than that half-sentence, which is from its intro, if I recall correctly. Septentrionalis 13:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
The sentence quoted seems misleading. The party wasn't "swifty renamed" Democratic Republicans. There was usage of both names, with "Democratic Republicans" gradually coming into more use, possibly. The idea that "Demcoratic Republican" was changed into "Democratic Party" in 1828 seems clearly wrong - as far as I understand it, the party name Jackson ran over in 1828 was by a wide margin most commonly called "Democratic Republican," and the two names were both commonly used in 1832 and 1836. Let's avoid sentences that are actively misleading. john k 16:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Pmanderson|Septentrionalis's Partisanship

Pmanderson|Septentrionalis had agreed to the wording of the first sentence (he wrote it himself) then choose to simultaneously counter the usage of Jefferson, Madison, historians, history textbooks, and WP:MOS by removing "Party" and bolding of the alternate names, hoping to swing world opinion instantly in his direction. Fortunately, he does not have control over the world's libraries and the internet, so the evidence against his position remains as strong as ever. Skyemoor 11:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

This edit, which bolds "Republican Party" and leaves the other alternate names unbolded, is unacceptable partisanship. "Republican Party" is unsourced to begin with.
Well over a dozen sources have been provided, you are simply ignoring anything outside of your opinion.
Please recapitulate; I see nothing on this page, aside from the (convenient but anachronistic) modern usage, which supports Republican Party (so capped). Septentrionalis 16:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
If the contemporary historians and modern history textbooks referenced are convenient but anachronistic", so be it. People will come looking for the Republican Party that their history books stated Jefferson and Madison started, and it makes perfect encyclopedic sense to help them understand up front that they are at the right place. Skyemoor 18:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
As for the question of bolding the alternate names at all, I find the italics far less jarring; but if a third party thinks they should be bolded, I will go along. Septentrionalis 13:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
It's not up to you to decide, it's already in WP:MOS, whether you approve of the manual or not. Plus, [[1]] just recently bolded them as well. And I'm surprised to see that you stooped to editing the section heading above; I've restored it and will continue to do so. It seems you are having issues with Wikipedia:Civility. Skyemoor 15:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
NB:Because you spammed him. here. I'm whelmed. Septentrionalis 23:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
If you don't like cabals, then don't start them yourself. I learned the 'spamming' from you. Skyemoor 01:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I am also curious what POV I am supposed to be promoting. I know what view bolding Republican Party alone or in preference to the other alternatives tends to promote. Septentrionalis 18:34, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Funny you should ask: you've been denigrating my input as partisan for so long, and stressing the words "Democrat" and "Democratic" so fiercely that I've come to assume you have a partisan bent yourself. I'm completely independent, and will fight to ensure that WP entries are free from partisan propaganda, subtle or otherwise. Skyemoor 18:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Try harder. My position has always been that these are the Democratic Republicans;
Didn't exist in the 1790s unless you are referring the Societies, which is another article altogether. Even after the 1790s, Madison, Jefferson, and others at the national level continued to use 'Republicans' and 'republicans'. Consistently. Skyemoor 19:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
And this article covers the DR at least through 1829; by which time DR was the predominant usage. Septentrionalis 16:41, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
and effort should be taken to avoid confusing them with the present Republicans.
History textbooks now say 'Republicans', so it is now you who are confusing the matter. Skyemoor 19:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Some history textbooks; political science books say DRP. Septentrionalis 16:41, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Until I saw how well Settler sourced the usage, I was content to leave out Democrats altogether. Septentrionalis 18:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
You seem to want to put your words in other's mouths quite frequently. Skyemoor 19:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Article Title

I'm willing to forgo the use of 'Party' or 'party' in the mrs. backenstoes has a big buttitle if we change the name of the article to reflect the same. Skyemoor 14:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The box below misrepresents the discussion. Skyemoor changed his !vote here, as he is entitled to do; but he appears not to realize that it is Wikipedia custom to mark changes of one's own comments after they have been responded to. Septentrionalis 20:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Pmanderson|Septentrionalis distains the use of WP guidelines, but then wants to hold me to some vague interpretation of his perception of a 'custom'. If he can provide a policy or guideline that supports his position, I will consider it. In the meantime, I would ask that he cease his practice of altering my discussion on these various talk pages. Skyemoor 02:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no move. -- tariqabjotu 06:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Requested move to Democratic Republicans

Democratic-Republican Party (United States) → Democratic Republicans —(Discuss)— There is no consensus on the perfect name for this article; but there appears to be agreement this would be an improvement: It avoids the impression that they were a fusion, like the Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party; and it evades the question of whether they were a "party", a "Party", or neither. —Septentrionalis 16:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Discussion

Add any additional comments

There is no consensus on any further move; as the discussion above will show at length. This is a proposal for a tweak only, I would strongly oppose any further move. Septentrionalis 16:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The term 'party' should be able to be referred to in the body of the article in the context of its usage in that timeframe (primarily the way it is discussed in portions of the article now), as initially loose coalitions that grew into more formal factions, eventually leading to convention-based parties. We would also need to highlight the difference in timeframe between "Republicans" and "Democratic-Republican", and remain disambiguated from DR Societies.

Didn't this party run candidates for office? Weren't several presidents of the Democratic-Republican Party? Will the new name fit in all the places where the existng name is used? 67.166.152.250 05:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
And the Federalist Party (United States), Anti-Administration Party (United States), and Pro-Administration Party (United States)? Settler 05:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Anti-Administration Party (and its opposite) are anachronisms, if not figments. But I don't feel inclined to move them. If you want a parallel, would anyone support Anti-Federalist Party (United States), instead of Anti-Federalism, where they are, or Anti-Federalists? Septentrionalis 16:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
And then what would we do about the First Party System? I'm afraid we've both been a bit too zealous here; these are parties by the definition that historians are using for the era, so I'll retract my encouragement (and indeed will now oppose) to remove "party" from the article. Skyemoor 00:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

My naive but observant $.02 --Contemporary capitalization was haphazard; why the insistence on "republican" when (I suspect) "Republican" was more common? --"Democratic-Republican" (with or without hyphen) is a retcon to distinguish the party that evolved (a) from the Anti-Federalists and (b) into the Democratic Party from the Republican Party of 1854 to present. --A member of the contemporaneous Party would have defined himself [sic] as a Republican. Others sometimes referred to the party as composed of Democrats, due to the affiliation of the Jeffersonians and Anti-Federalists with the Democrat Clubs (pro-Jacobin social and political organizations) of the 1790s. My suggestion: rename this article Republican Party (Jeffersonian). --jperrylsu

Party name vs. Member labels

The first sentence refers to party names, though one person has been putting in member labels. I'll park the reference here so that others can discuss it. I'll also note that the use of 'Democrat' as referenced is so infrequent as to preclude mention on the same level elsewhere as "republican", "Republican", or "Jeffersonian Republican".Skyemoor 19:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Democrats[2], Jeffersonians, or combinations of these (like Jeffersonian republicans);[3]

I regret to see that Skyemoor's persistent and single-handed edit war has resulted in the misplacement of the use of "Democratic Members of Congress" as the authors and members of the Party's last nominating caucus. This should of course be restored. Septentrionalis 20:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
regret to see that Pmanderson|Septentrionalis's persistent and single-handed edit war has resulted in the misplacement of the use of "Democratic Members of Congress" as the party had split by this time period. This should of course be discussed further down in the article.
Septentrionalis needs to read his own sources more closely. His own source notes that in calling for the caucus, the "Democratic Members" are seceding from the "republican party." It cannot be more clear-- the party name was "republican." Why anyone would hold this up as evidence of the contrary is mystifying. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reedmore (talk • contribs) 03:57, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
It would also be nice if Skyemoor would take the time to observe that his edit summary is wrong on two points; The first line does say "Democratic Republican Party" (although it should have a hyphen);
And alt names must also refer to parties, though you are trying to bend the definition to member labels. Skyemoor 21:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
and, more importantly, WP:MOS is a guideline, not policy. Septentrionalis 20:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
"Wikipedia articles should heed these guidelines." Present your justification for an exception and we will discuss it. Skyemoor 21:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Heed, yes; obey as the Ten Commandments, no. Bolding all the names given to the DR's results in a lengthy and garish stretch of bold test, which makes the paragraph diffiuclt to read.
Pmanderson|Septentrionalis's POV must be obeyed? No. The WP:MOS clearly states otherwise, even providing an example with much more bolding than we have. I'll provide the example again. Skyemoor 00:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
"Use boldface in the first sentence for synonyms of the article title (including acronyms); for example, Río de la Plata: "
The Río de la Plata (from Spanish: “River of Silver”), also known by the English name River Plate, as in the Battle of the River Plate, or sometimes (La) Plata River.
Skyemoor's effort to "solve" this problem by reducing the list to the anachronism Republican Party is tendentious and misleading.
If Pmanderson|Septentrionalis wants to call the historians that pen the majority of history textbooks 'tendentious and misleading', he may, though he shouldn't expect any of us to give it a second thought. Skyemoor 00:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
(I have said this before; if this time Skyemoor has an acrual answer, we can indeed discuss it.) Septentrionalis 23:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Pmanderson|Septentrionalis has been shown the answer many times, but prefers to cling to outdated POV. And he should quit changing the text in my responses, regardless if his case is too weak otherwise. Skyemoor 00:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The ongoing edit-war about typograhy and similar details is the very essence of WP:LAMEness. I've had to block one party for 3RR, but I seriously recommend to all involved to give it a break. Thanks, Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I consider this edit by Skyemoor a definite improvement, although not perfect. Septentrionalis 19:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Archived discussions over the past 9 months

It was well past due; this talk page was simply enormous. Settler 22:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

  1. ^ Madison Papers:Presidential series: 5:147; August 11, 1812
  2. ^ Address of the Republican committee of the County of Gloucester, New-Jersey ... Gloucester County, December 15, 1800
  3. ^ Mathews, Dictionary of Americanisms (1951)
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