Talk:Democratic-Republican Party/Archive 2

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Party's name as it is used in American history books

I did a study of 25 American history books to determine which term historians favor for Jefferson's party, "Democratic-Republican Party" or "Republican Party." Only one book (Salliant's Black Puritan, Black Republican) uses the term "Repubican Party"; one other (Laudau's Friendly Foes) uses the term "Jeffersonian Republican Party." All others use the term "Democratic-Republican Party."

Here are the results of my study. I think we need to take into consideration which term professional historians use for this party. My study clearly shows that the vast majority of historians use the term "Democratic-Republican Party":

1. Brinkley A et al, The Reader's Companion to the American Presidency (Houghton-Mifflin, 2000). Quote: "At its outset this highly unusual race involved five major candidates, all of whom were at least nominally identified with the Democratic-Republican party ..." Index: "Democratic-Republicans" 18 entries; "Republican Party": none. Result: "Democratic-Replublican" by 18 to 1.
2. Casstevens S H, The Civil War and Yadtkin County, South Carolina (McFarland, 1997). Quote: "The Democrats had their roots in the old Democratic-Republican Party, whose power base came from the small farmers, traders, artisans, as well as plantation..." Index: No entires. Result: "Democratic-Republican Party" by 1 to 0.
3. Cornelison, P et al, The Great American History Fact Finder (Houghton Mifflin, 2004). Democratic-Replublican Party had one entry. No index. This is a reference book. "Democratic-Republican Party by 1 to 0.
4. Doak, R S, Profiles of the Presidents: Martin Van Buren (Compass Point Books, 2003). "In 1801, when he was just nineteen years old, Van Buren joined the Democratic-Republican Party." Index: Democratic-Republican Party 3 entries; "Republican Party" 0. Results: Democratic-Replublican Party by 3 to 0.
5. Editors, The Political Reference Almanac 1999-2000 (Keynote Publishing, 2000). Entry for Democratic-Replublican Party; none for Republican Party. No index in this reference book. Results: Democratic-Replublican Party 1, Republican Party 0.
6. Fortier, J C ed., ’’ After the Vote: A Guide to the Electoral College’’ (, 2004). Quote: "The congressional caucus of the Democratic-Republican Party nominated Vice President." Index: none. Results: Democratic-Replublican Party by 1-0.
7. Gillespie M K, Free Labor, Unfree World: White Artisans in Slaveholding Georgia, 1789-1860 (Univ. of Georgia Press, 2004). Quote: "American artisans believed that republican thought, which would become the basis for the Democratic-Republican Party at the national level..." Index: Democratic-Republican Party: 9 entries; Republican party none. Results: Democratic-Replublican Party by 9-0.
8. Guelzco, A C, Abraham Lincoln: Redeemer President (Eerdmans Publishing, 2002). "The stampede reached Clay himself in 1824, when the Tennessee legislature bypassed the customary Democratic-Republican Party caucus and nominated, not Clay..." Index: no entries. Results: Democratic-Republican Party by 1-0.
9. Hirsch E D et al, The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy (Houghton Mifflin, 2002). "A political party that arose in the 1825 from a split in the Democratic-Republican Party..." Index entries: none. Results: Democratic-Republican Party by 1-0.
10. ybel, A R, Made by USA: The International System (Palgrave - St. Martin's, 2001). "The second party, the Democratic Party, was the offspring of Jefferson's Democratic-Republican Party." Index: No entries.Results: Democratic-Republican Party by 1-0.
11. Jacoby S, Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism (Metropolitan Books, 2004). Quote: "Washington was of course the head of the Federalist Party and Thomas Jefferson became the leader of the Democratic Republican Party..." Index: Democratic-Republican Party: 3 entries; none other.Results: Democratic-Republican Party by 3-0.
12. Korzi, M J, Seat of Popular Leadership: The Presidency, Political Parties, and Democratic Leadership (Univ. of Massachussets Press, 2004). Quote: "Monroe, however, declined to name anyone, and the ensuing scramble for nomination had dire effects on the Democratic-Republican Party..." Index: Democratic-Publican Party, 9 entries; none other.Results: Democratic-Republican Party by 9-0.
13. Landau, E, Friendly Foes: A Look at Political Parties (Lerner Publications, 2004). "It became known as the Democratic-Republican Party." Index: Democratic-Republican Party, 16. No mention of Jeffersonian Republicans.Results: Democratic-Republican Party by 16-0.
14. Lipset S M, The First New Nation (Transaction Publishers, 2003). "...the crystallization of the Jeffersonian Democratic-Republican party." Index: no entires. Results: Democratic-Republican Party by 1-0.
15. Newman, S, Parades and the Politics of the Street (Univ. of Pennsyvlania Press, 1997). "For while the rural South provided the nascent Democratic Republican party with its most important power base, relatively few French Revolutionary festivals..." Index: 15 entries; none for Republican Party. Results: Democratic-Republican Party by 15-0.
16. Paulson A, Realignment and Party Revival: Understanding American Electoral Politics at the Turn of the Twenty-First Century (Praeger, 2003). "The Federalists had died out, and the Democratic-Republican Party under Monroe provided an umbrella that covered John Quincy Adams and the New Englanders..." Index: no entries. Results: Democratic-Republican Party by 1-0.
17. Payan G, The Federalists and Anti-Federalists: How and Why Political Parties Were Formed in Young America (Rosen Publishing, 2004). "The Democratic-Republican Party won every election from 1800 to 1824." Index: Democratic-Republican Party, 3 entries, no other. Results: Democratic-Republican Party by 3-0.
18. Purcell S J, Sealed With Blood: War, Sacrifice, and Memory in Revolutionary America (Univ. of Pennsylvania Press, 2003). "While Mercy Otis Warren's 1804 history of the Revolution clearly betrayed her allegiance to the Democratic-Republican party, she sought to record the war as..." Index: Democratic-Republican Party 10+entries; none other.Results: Democratic-Republican Party by 10+-0.
19. Richarson, D G, Third-Party Politics from the Nation's Founding to the Rise of the Greenback-Labor Party (iUniverse, 2000). "Thomas Jefferson's Democratic-Republican Party, a states' rights party adhering to a policy of strict construction and committed to the doctrine of a..." Index: "Democratic-Repubicans": 9 entries; no other reference. Results: Democratic-Republican Party by 9-0.
20. Salliant J, Black Puritan, Black Republican: The Life and Thought of Lemuel Haynes (Oxford University Press, 2003). "Jefferson and James Madison were foremost among his foes in the Democratic-Republican Party, while George Washington and John Adams symbolized sagacious ..." Index: Democratic-Republican Party: no entries; Repubican Party: 3 entries. Results: Republican Party by 3-0.
21. Schantz, H L ed., American Presidential Elections (State Univ of New York, 1999). "The Democratic-Republican party, or the Jeffersonian Democrats, were the most successful party in presidential elections, winning seven consecutive..." Index: "Democratic-Repubican Party (Jeffersonian Democrats)", numerous entries. Results: Moot.
22. Sidlow, E et al, America at Odds (Thomas Higher Education, 2005). "James Madison worked to extend tine influence of tine Democratic Republican Party..." Index: Democratic-Republicans (Jeffersonian Republicans): 3 entries. Refers to "Democratic-Republicans" in the text. Results: Mixed.
23. Tichenor, D J, Dividing Lines: The Politics of Immigration Control in America (Princeton Univ. Press, 2002). "These restrictive measures only strengthened ties between enfranchised immigrants and the Democratic-Republican party, as foreign-born voters..." Index: Democratic-Republican Party: 2 entries; none for others. Results: Democratic-Republican Party by 2-0.
24. Walter, R, Dictionary of Politics and Legal Terms (Brunswick Publishing, 1992). "One of the two major political parties in the US, tracing its origin to the Democratic-Republican Party of Thomas Jefferson, which for the first time openly..." No index. This is a reference book.Results: Democratic-Republican Party by 1-0.
25. Wishart, D J, Encyclopedia of the Great Plains (Univ. of Nebraska Press). "The Democratic Party is usually deemed to have been formed by supporters of Andrew Jackson who split away from the vanishing Democratic-Republican Party..." Index entries: none.Results: Democratic-Republican Party by 1-0.

Poor job that does NOT support argument about historians. How many of the books deal with the Early National period? only 3: (Gillespie, Lipset, Purcell) And then the dates are wrong: Lipset for example was reprinted in 2003 but originally published in 1963. Several titles are children's books

& not by scholars (Doak, Landau, Payan); others deal with late 19th or even 20th century. Others are not by historians at all (Fortier, Walter) Suggest instead look at the books written and reviewed by scholars of the 1790-1839 period--this was done above, see "Journal of the Early Republic". Rjensen 04:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Show a little respect why don't you? I took the time to look into all these books -- you simply dismiss them with the briefest, cursory comments, claiming that some are children's authors and others aren't written by historians. You haven't looked at these books. Your Google searches and quick, unsubstantiated conclusions are preferable to my hours of investigation? I remind you: These are published books that have passed editorial boards and been reviewed by scholars. These books were published in the past ten years and reflect a century of editorial thought on this matter. It is plain to me that "Democratic-Republican" is the preferred term. You don't like the message, so you discount the messenger. Please bring some honesty and integrity to the table next time. Griot 04:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Four of these books may qualify as evidence. The rest are evidence that Griot cannot tell the difference between a scholarly study and a children's book for 3rd graders. We have already examined the scholarly literature and the textbooks -- heavily against D-R terminology. Rjensen 05:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

We just know examined the literature and textbooks. Please try to look at this subject with an open mind. Griot 05:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[Warning: The following post is long.]

Before we start, I am going to caveat all of the following with the comment that I don't subscribe to the idea that whatever “professional historians” do is dispositive as to what Wikipedia's policy on this naming issue should be. For one thing, the term “professional historian” is not well-defined: witness the dispute above between Griot, who thinks that textbook writers are “professional historians” and Richard Jensen, who does not. For another, I think that there are other factors to consider, such as what the people of the time actually named the party, and not confusing our readership with an ambiguous name. Anyway, on to the experiment….

When Griot pointed out his 25 books to me, my first response was, “Wow. That's different from my experience.” And, indeed, I went through my bookshelves (still only partially unpacked from my most recent move) and found the following books that discuss this period of American history:

• Ackerman, Bruce (2005). The Failure of the Founding Fathers: Jefferson, Marshall, and the Rise of Presidential Democracy.
• Amar, Akhil Reed (2005). America's Constitution: A Biography.
• Blum, John M. (1963). The National Experience: A History of the United States. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Butterfield, Roger (1947). The American Past.
• Ellis, Joseph J. (1996). American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson.
• Ellis, Joseph J. (2001). Founding Brothers: The Revolutionary Generation.
• Holt, Michael F. (1999). The Rise and Fall of the American Whig Party: Jacksonian Politics and the Onset of the Civil War.
• McCullough, David (2001). John Adams.
• Schweikert, Larry (2004). A Patriot's History of the United States : From Columbus's Great Discovery to the War on Terror. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

Of the above books, only Holt doesn't refer to Jefferson's party exclusively as “Republicans” but instead as “Jeffersonian Republicans”. (Tellingly, it covers the historical period starting with their breakup and starting with the creation of the modern Republican party; in other words, Holt needs to disambiguate.) Ellis (2001) does refer to “Democratic-Republican societies”, but does not so refer to the party in this fashion.

Of course, there's an obvious problem with my above list. It suffers from a selection bias, insofar as these are books that interest either me or my wife. It may be that I am predisposed to liking books that have properties that predispose them to using “Republican” over “Democratic-Republican”. I then contrived to perform an experiment. I went to my local Barnes & Noble and did a quick survey of the books in the American history section. I had about 25 minutes to do this survey before the store closed, so I was only able to get at about ten books that referenced Jefferson's party. (The first books are from the “New Releases” section, followed by the general section in alphabetical order by author.) Here are the results:

• Bender, Thomas (2006). A Nation Among Nations : America's Place in World History.
  • one reference each to “Democratic-Republican” and “Republican”
• Groom, Winston (2006). Patriotic Fire : Andrew Jackson and Jean Laffite at the Battle of New Orleans.
  • refers exclusively to “Democratic Republican” with no hyphen
• Wood, Gordon S. (2006). Revolutionary Characters : What Made the Founders Different.
  • refers exclusively to “Republican”
• Ackerman, Bruce (2005). The Failure of the Founding Fathers: Jefferson, Marshall, and the Rise of Presidential Democracy.
  • refers exclusively to “Republican”
• Allgor, Catherine (2006). A Perfect Union : Dolley Madison and the Creation of the American Nation.
  • uses both “Democratic-Republican” and “Republican”
  • This book specifically says that “Democratic-Republican” was being used by the War Hawks in 1810–1812 and the the use of “Democratic” was being “rehabilitated”.
• Ambrose, Stephen (2003). Undaunted Courage : The Pioneering First Mission to Explore America's Western Wilderness.
  • refers exclusively to “Republican”
  • skipped other Undaunted Courage books by Ambrose
• Bennett, William J. (2006). America: The Last Best Hope (Volume I) : From the Age of Discovery to a World at War.
  • three references to “Democratic-Republican” and at least eight to “Republican”
  • footnote refers to an evolution in naming from “Republican” to “Democratic-Republican” (and thence to “Democratic” for Jackson's faction, although Bennett doesn't distinguish the Jacksonians from the rest of the former Jeffersonian party)
• Boorstin, Daniel J. (1967). The Americans: The National Experience.
  • refers exclusively to “Republican”
• Borneman, Walter R. (2005). 1812 : The War That Forged a Nation.
  • two references to “Democratic-Republican” and many to “Republican”
  • notes that switchover of party name to “Democratic-Republican” occurred near the beginning of the war
• Burns, Eric (2006). Infamous Scribblers: The Founding Fathers and the Rowdy Beginnings of American Journalism.
  • refers exclusively to “Republican”

The results of this experiment are interesting to consider. First of all, only one of these books uses “Democratic-Republican” exclusively; four others use both, and five use “Republican” exclusively. The ones that are mixed tend to use “Republican” more often than “Democratic-Republican”. Thus, among popular history books, it seems that both are used, with a bias towards “Republican”. (Keep in mind that this is a small sample size; a larger sampling might indicate a different bias.)

What is more interesting, however, is that, of the four books that use both, three refer to a shift in usage from “Republican” to “Democratic-Republican”, and two peg the timing of this shift to the beginning of the War of 1812. If in fact it is true that the name “Democratic-Republican” picked up currency around 1810–1812, that should influence how we refer to the party: we should use “Republican” or “Jeffersonian Republican” for articles whose subject matter is prior to 1810–1812 and “Democratic-Republican” or “Democratic Republican” for articles whose subject matter is later.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth for the moment. Comments?

— DLJessup (talk) 13:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

This largely establishes usage by polemicists, not historians; William J. Bennett's qualifications are not as a historian of the Republic. This partisan usage should not cloud the question. Septentrionalis 13:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into this and taking the time to review usage in books. When I used the term "professional historian," I meant people who use terms with consideration. I sometimes work as a text book editor. Every publisher I have ever worked for provides editors with a style sheet of naming conventions. The half-dozen books I edited that had to do with early American history had "Democratic-Republican Party" on the style sheet. For guidance in this article, perhaps we should take a cue from other encyclopedias and online enyclopedias. Remember that Wikipedia is for the general reader, not the historian concerned with a particular time period in American history. Rather than rely on what people at the time called the party, we should consider the readership. Encylopedia and general-history publishers used the term "Democratic-Republican" because the usage of "Republican" might confuse general readers by making them think that Jefferson's party was the current Republican Party. Griot 15:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

95% of the people who are concernbed about this party in 2006 are students and teachers. Only 15% of the textbooks use D-R so we are really confusing them I fear. Rjensen 17:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

You, my friend, are fond of making grand pronouncements. How do you know that 95 percent of people concerned with this subject are students and teachers, or that only 15 percent of textbooks use "Democratic-Republican"? Wiki is an available-to-all online encyclopedia. It's safe to say that the majority of people who use it are general readers. A PhD candidate or serious historian would be foolish to rely on Wikipedia. The articles are not peer-reviewed. I agree with JW1805 (below). When you say "Republican Party" to just about any American, he or she immediately thinks of the modern-day Republican Party. Using DP prevents confusion. Griot 17:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• The key thing to remember is that Wikipedia is a general purpose encyclopedia that coveres a wide range of topics from all periods of history. Wikipedia is not a scholarly journal of early American politics. In such a journal, the word "Republican" is easily understood to mean Jefferson's party. However, in a general-purpose encyclopedia, when you say "Republican Party" most people are going to think you are talking about the modern-day Republican Party. If this term is spread about many articles about different time periods, then it will be confusing to the average modern reader. That's just a fact. I don't see how anyone could disagree with that. We have to write these articles in order to avoid needless confusion. --JW1805 (Talk) 17:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I've been reading this discussion with some interest. I agree with the above statement by JW1805, in so much as Wikipedia is a general purpose encyclopedia and is not just for scholars but the public at large. When considering nomenclature., we must take into consideration what is generally held as acceptable terms by the general-political-academic community as it display's this article's topic to the public:

• From the Democatic Party webpage (concerning their own history): 1798, the "party of the common man" was officially named the Democratic-Republican Party and in 1800 elected Jefferson as the first Democratic President of the United States. [1]
• From the Encyclopedia Brittanica (argues both cases, which is correct in context): originally (1792–98) Republican Party first opposition political party in the United States. Organized in 1792 as the Republican Party, its members held power nationally between 1801 and 1825. It was the direct antecedent of the present Democratic Party. and Although the Federalists soon branded Jefferson's followers “Democratic-Republicans,” attempting to link them with the excesses of the French Revolution, the Republicans officially adopted the derisive label in 1798.[2]
• From the Cyclopædia of Political Science, Political Economy, and the Political History of the United States by the Best American and European Writers: It at first (in 1792-3) took the name of the republican party... and Upon its absorption of the French or democratic faction, in 1793-6, it took the official title of the democratic-republican party, which it still claims. About 1828-30 its nationalizing portion having broken off and taken the name of "national republican" (see WHIG PARTY, I.), the particularist residue assumed the name of "democrats," which had been accepted since about 1810...".org/LIBRARY/YPDBooks/Lalor/llCy364.html
• From the White House (biography of Jefferson): Sharp political conflict developed, and two separate parties, the Federalists and the Democratic-Republicans, began to form. Jefferson gradually assumed leadership of the Republicans, who sympathized with the revolutionary cause in France. Attacking Federalist policies, he opposed a strong centralized Government and championed the rights of states.'[3]

It seems to me that both Democratic-Republican and Republican are used to describe Jefferson's party that competed with the Federalist's represented by Adams and Hamilton and by inference Washington (although he didn't belong to any party). I side then with both terms used in context. I think we as a community can find a way to do just that like some of the quotes provided above. --Northmeister 02:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

A couple of points here:

1. The Democratic Party and Britannica references to some sort of name change from "Republican" to "Democratic-Republican" in 1798 are entirely unsupported by any literature I have ever read on the subject. I have no idea where this idea derives from.
2. The 25 sources listed by Griot do not seem to be terribly convincing. Some seem useful, but many of them are a) guides to elections throughout American history; such books are highly like to use Democratic-Republican to avoid confusion with the later Republican party; or b) books not at all focused on the era in question, but about a different era and referring back to Jefferson's party; once again, this is a context in which one is much more likely to find use of "Democratic-Republican" to avoid confusion.
3. I think the DLJessup's examples, as well as some that I cited earlier on the page, are fairly demonstrative that when looking at books actually about the period when the party was in existence mainstream history books, including both more scholarly and more popular works, tend to use "Republican."
4. I think that it has also been demonstrated that textbooks, at the very least, frequently use "Republican Party."

I'm not sure how all this information weighs against the disambiguation issue. What I do think is that the usage information so far brought forward supports the following:

1. On this page, and on other pages primarily dealing with the history of the period when the Jeffersonian Republicans existed, we should probably refer to the party in the article text as "Republicans," or "Jeffersonian Republicans" if disambiguation is needed.
2. On pages mentioning the Jeffersonian Republican party, but largely dealing with a later time period, it might make sense to prefer usage of "Democratic-Republican. Again, this is with respect to how the party is referred to in the text of the article.
3. The title issue isn't so important to me. I'd suggest a posting on requested moves, and see what happens. Whatever happens, though, I think that the two above points should remain unchanged - "Republican" in this article and others about the early 19th century; "Democratic-Republican" for later references, and perhaps for lists encompassing all of American history.

Any thoughts? john k 23:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I entirely disagree. The correct historic name is "Democratic Republican" because the party itself accepted that name in 1798 period. They also referenced themselves as 'Republicans' earlier and later. The "National Republican Party" of John Q. Adams and the "Democratic Party" of Andrew Jackson finally broke the unity of the Democratic Republican Party. Originally the name was used by the Federalist Party as a pejorative later to be accepted. Further to claim that this party was purely Jeffersonian is a misnomer as they embraced policies similar to the Federalist's on banking, tariffs, etc. after the War of 1812 - with men such as Clay and Calhoun sharing opinion then. Only with the Tariff of Abominations of 1828 did this coalition begin to fracture into the Jacksonian Democrats and Adams/Clay National Republicans-Whigs advocating different concepts of democracy and republicanism. The Jacksonians were more Jeffersonian advocating limited government, revenue tariffs only, etc. Whereas the National Republicans and Whigs advocated more active government in the form of expenditure on public common school education, internal improvements to infrastructure (including the national road or Cumberland road project and Erie Canal project in New York), tariffs high enough to protect infant industry but low enough to raise revenue etc. These folks in the National Republican-Whig Party would eventually find themselves mostly leading the new Republican Party form in the 1850's - and one of them a "Henry Clay tariff Whig" by his own definition - Honest Abe Lincoln would win the nomination and the Presidency in 1860 to enact the economic and social program of the National Republican and Whigs during the Civil War. Hence we have in AMERICAN HISTORY: The Federalist Party of Hamilton and Adams vs. The Democratic Republican Party of Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe - The National Republican Party of J.Q. Adams and Clay vs. The Democratic Party of Jackson and Calhoun - The Whig Party of Clay and Webster vs. The Democratic Party of Van Buren and Polk - The Republican Party of Lincoln and McKinley vs. The Democratic Party of Cleveland and Wilson - MODERN TIMES: The Democratic Party of Franklin D. Roosevelt (inherited the Adams-Clay-Lincoln-T. Roosevelt tradition) and John F. Kennedy vs. The Republican Party of Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, and George W. Bush (inherited the Jefferson-Jackson-Cleveland brand of the old Democratic Party). In other words the Democratic Party of today is the party of "Lincoln" whereas the Republican Party is the party of "Jefferson" at their cores - the roles have switched but the two party makeup remains the same. That's history folks and that's reality. I see a debate on semantics of what the party ought to be called - it ought to be called as it was called by THAT PARTY itself in 1798. By, the way, I provide links with every point I made above which was contested as if no links were provided for perusal. I supported also using the terms Democratic Republican and Republican or Jeffersonian Republican in proper context as the examples I gave above which are excellent examples of how history has recorded the use of the terms. --Northmeister 00:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The party itself did not take the name "Democratic-Republican" in 1798, as I note above. The Democratic Party says this, and Britannica (for some reason) says this, but it's not true. Find an actual source by a historian of the period that says this and I'll take it under advisement. Until then, I'm going to say this is simply a false claim. Jefferson didn't say "We are all Federalists now, we are all Democratic-Republicans." john k 10:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, this whole debate gets a little silly. But if you all are going to have this debate, I'd really recommend some real original documentation to take it to the right level. Citing encyclopedias, websites, and a bunch of dusty academics won't convince anyone. Best source I know of on-line is the Library of Congress Prints and Photographs collection[4], which has millions of lithographs and prints, many, many of them going back to this period. Campaign handbills and the like are good sources. The American Antiquarian Society probably has the most complete collection[5], but has to be accessed from a library that subscribes (or, with proper credentials, you can visit it in Worcester, MA, since it's just a great place anyways). Sam 00:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia naming policies do not tell us to use the name which is most historically accurate (which, as I understand it, is Republican, although in the later years Democratic-Republican started to be used). It is, as I understand it, to use the name most used in the literature written about the subject. Beyond this, many of the supposed "dusty academics" that have been cited were in fact writing popular histories for a wide audience. john k 10:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It smells sweet just the same.

What a great debate about what name to call the Rose. May I ask a different question: what about adding a section to this article on the names used by this particular party for itself over the years? It's actually rather fascinating as a topic, and there are periods when certain groups within the Party would try to make off with the name Republican previously applied to the broader group. Whatever we call the article, I think the discussion is worthy of being in there. Sam 18:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

From Republicans to Democrats

The transition in this article from the Republican Party of Jefferson to the Democratic Party of Jackson doesn't seem to be well dealt with and is very inconsistent. Jackson gets listed as a candidate of the party in one section, but not as a president elected by the party in another. I'm not sure I buy the discussion that says the party "split" and "dissolved" prior to the 1928 campaign. Part of the problem is the reification of the party as an entity; my understanding is that all of the candidates in 1928 still viewed themselves as Republicans, and this may be the period of the party's greatest dominance, since no one was running against them. At that stage in time the apparti of party governance were not as well developed as today - we have to wait for Van Buren and Lincoln for that.

So I'd propose moving away from dissolution language and describing in more words what happened, which was a struggle over the heart and soul of the party in which Jackson emerged supreme and took over and reformed the party while others split.Sam 19:05, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I've tried to flesh out the later years of the party in particular; please take a look and see what you think. Sam 22:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Last Years

I don't mind seeing more of the 1828 and on period under the Democratic Party (can go in either in my view), but we may want to add a "see also", and I don't like the tag of "Last Years, 1816-1824" for two reasons: it seems funny to have a party sound like a lame duck at a time when it is as dominant as any other political party in the history of the country, and, arguably, they aren't the last years, since there is ongoing continuity into the Democratic Party. Just some thoughts.

I especially like the handling of Van Buren, however. One of the most underappreciated figures in our history. Sam 23:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be no reason whatever to call the party D-R inside the article. Rjensen 23:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Fine by me. Sam 00:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, I've given numerous reasons above why that term "Democratic Republican" ought to be used and the term Republican used only in reference to the original name and how they often referenced themselves. This is how it is usually done and it common practice. Further confusion is removed by doing so with the later Republican Party whose ties to the old Democratic Republican Party were with the National Republican element best represented by Clay and J.Q. Adams and originally by Calhoun who switched sides. Jackson represented a populist opposition to the Bank of the United States, a Jeffersonian notion of limited government, and organized the Jeffersonian elements of the Democratic Republican Party or coalition into the Democratic Party or Jacksonian Democrats. --Northmeister 00:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Fine by me. Sam 00:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

No it is NOT usually called D-R in recent history books; 80% of textbooks since 2000 reject that term. Students looking for help will be badly confused by an obsolescent name. The party NEVER gave itself an official name--the 1798 story is not mentioned in any standard history of the 1790s or the party. (It crops up in an unsigned Ency Brit article that is unsourced and written by some staff non-historian). Rjensen 00:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The textbooks are wrong historically as they seem to be these days on a number of items. But that is moot, what did the Party call itself, that is what is important. Further students need a clear definition of the modern Republican Party as opposed to the then Democratic Republican Party to clear up confusion that will result from your continued lack of accepting a common place term in American History to describe the party of Jefferson-Madison-and Monroe. --Northmeister 00:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

No the textbooks are written by the best scholars and revised every couple years: they strongly reject D-R. (Only one uses the term). That is also the case with the major scholarly books and articles in recent years. GRIOT went to the library and found only 3 or 4 recent scholarly books that use the old D-R term. Millions of students are taught "Republican" or "Jeffersonian republican" nowadays. A great virtue of Wiki is that it is up-to-date. Let's keep it that way. !!!!

New is not right. Actual facts of history are more important. Are you rejecting the claim that the party accepted the term Democratic-Republican Party? I can go with Jeffersonian Republicans as a definition of the original party members until after the War of 1812 when the party embraced much of the Federalist policy on economic matters regarding tariffs, banking, etc. that Hamilton called for - then it is not proper to call them Jeffersonian Republicans. We are both right in a sense and arguing over nothing also in a sense. That is the Democratic-Republican Party was divided into two factions that came together only under the Era of Good Feeling after the War of 1812 and split into the National Republican and Jacksonian Democratic Party's of Adams and Jackson. The Jackson wing embraced traditional Jeffersonian principles whereas the Adam's or later Clay wing embraced the post-War of 1812 Era of Good Feeling principles. Thus the formation of two new party's that became the Democratic and Whig party's who contested one another in the 1840's-1850's timeframe. The Republican Party of 1850-1930's represented the old Whig-National Republican-Dem-Republican-Federalist tradition wheras the Democratic Party represented until 1932 the Jacksonian-Jeffersonian Democratic-Republicans tradition - the roles are essentially reversed now. That is how confusing the situation will be for students. But, I am getting off point - Solution proposal: Let's keep the title header Democratic-Republican Party - indicate the roots of both modern party's therein in the two factions-refer to the party in its proper context of as they referenced themselves "The Republicans...." whereas in reference to the party overall "The Democratic-Republican Party nominanted..." in that context. --Northmeister 01:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Re, the bold above: the act of historical revisionism that attempts to link the modern Republican party historically with the Republican party of Jefferson is unappealing to me, and one for which, frankly, there is simply no historical basis. Comforting for the libertarian side of the Republican party, perhaps, but historically inaccurate. If you wish to find a philisophical link, have at it, it will do the Republican good. But the Republican Party itself has a rather grand historical origin in the fight against slavery and the incredible compromisess made by the dominant political players. Why not embrace what is really there? Re: the proposal to treat Republican as a faction of Democratic-Republican, do you have any evidence (real evidence, not secondary) for the use of the names in this way in the period covered? Sam 11:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, that 1798 supposed official act might convince me to care at some point - it's on the Democratic Party's website, too. Can anyone come up with a copy of the original document? Sam 00:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Since no one wants to get any original documents, I thought I'd show everyone the one thing I could find in the LOC Prints and Photographs collection clearly using the term Democratic Republican:

It's a bit late in the day, isn't it? Perhaps someone's trying to appeal to two traditions by this time. No sign anywhere of that 1798 usage - can someone point me to a primary source? Sam 01:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

By the way, it certainly seems ironic to me that the one bit of documentary evidence for the name Democratic-Republican Party in an article about the Democratic-Republican Party uses the name some 16 years after it was supposedly gone. That's four full election cycles! Sam 01:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

1840 election--amazing! for a good discussion of the name issue after 1816 see the long excerpt near the top of this page by Gammon Rjensen 02:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm just looking for someone to find a use of the phrase in an original document from 1792 or so through 1820 or so to give some basis for using D-R in the period. As to the 1840 use, I just think it goes to the overall fuziness of the transition to the Democratic Party. But I heartily recommend that database for this kind of thing. Sam 02:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, the term "Democratic-Republican" had an original contemporary use as a synonym for "Democrat" - it was used in this sense much more than it was ever used as a synonym for Jefferson's party... john k 17:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Precursor of Democratic Party

Hi Morphh. I think it's important to mention that the Democratic-Republican Party is the precursor of the modern-day Democratic Party in the Democratic-Republican and Thomas Jefferson articles. The earlier party is the seed of the modern-day party. It's quite amazing if you think about it that a party Thomas Jefferson created in the 1790s is still alive today, albeit in a different form. If you say that Jefferson created the Democratic-Republican Party without also mentioning that this party is the precursor of a modern party, you don't convey how amazing Jefferson's work was. Griot 11:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the post. I'll post it to the talk page as I think it should get some discussion. I do think it is important to mention in the D-R article but in the context of history and not in the first sentence. It was the precursor to the beginning of the modern party in 1830 as described in the article. Jefferson's amazing work was a precursor to many of today's parties. What is his work? Is it a name or a philosophy of U.S. government? What is a party but the ideas of political philosophy? Yes there is a direct link by name to the Democratic party but this is far from Jefferson's classical liberal philosophy. Putting this statement in the first sentence without the historical context gives the impression that the philosophy of the Democratic-Republican party is today's Democratic party. I consider the Libertarian party much closer to Jefferson's philosophy. I understand the direct link and put in context it makes perfect sense as does the development of other parties that have claimed Jefferson's principles. I just think it is unnecessary and gives the wrong impression in the first sentence. Morphh 13:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

There is a currently longer version of this discussion at Talk:Thomas Jefferson#Democratic Party. I've been asked to bring my comments over here also, and have chosen to bring that portion that I consider best presented, with some minor copyediting primarily to fit it into this context. Both of the above discussers have seen this before, and responded over there, but I bring it here for the benefit of other eyes that might help resolve the discussion.

For at least each of the two major American political parties parties, there are some of the views of this party that they represent better than their opponent, and some that they represent a major difference of perspective on. This is all too complicated to address in the intro, and this article already addresses it in the "Modern claims to the party's heritage" section.

There is no party today that bases its policies primarily on either Jefferson's philosophy or on the views of this party. Discussion of how Jefferson's philosophy influences modern politics today is encyclopedic, and belongs somewhere. It may well merit an article of its own. My belief is that a NPOV version of that article could in its intro have to reference the official Democratic Party line but if it did must also in the intro say that this is contrary to the general consensus of historians. Not being a professional historian I could be wrong about the general consensus. However, my general knoweldge, plus articles like United States presidential election, 1828 that are the work of other editors, show the Democratic Party as either a new organization or at most a splinter organization at the time of Andrew Jackson's election to the presidency. Including the official Democratic party claim in intros is to my eyes unacceptable political advocacy, and Wikipedia is not a soapbox. GRBerry 16:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

This underestimates the degree of institutional continuity in 1828, and overestimates the degree of ideological continuity to be expected of a long-term political party. The British Conservative Party do not hold the same views as Disraeli, much less Castlereagh, (and there have been splinters and realignments); but they are the same party. Septentrionalis 20:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I kind of like the idea of thinking of the party forces that are led by the President as just a "splinter organization", especially when they already controlled the party machinery in most states (and, in cases like NY, actually created the party machinery!) as well as nationally. I do think there was quite a bit of year-to-year continuity throughout this time, even if the effect over a couple decades was radical change. Sam 21:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't disagree with either of these points. I agree. What I have a problem with is the placement and context. I believe the correct context and placement is presented in this article already in the history section. I have an issue with the first sentence as there is no historical context around the statement - "the precursor of the modern-day Democratic Party". I would remove this section and let the history describe it. A compromise would be to leave it but put the correct context around the statement. However, I believe this would be duplication. Morphh 00:32, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

From the perspective of a partisan Democrat in 2006, the most important thing may be the ancestry issue. But from the historical point of view the party is much more important as a vehicle for Jeffersonian ideas and polcies--for what it did and what it represented in the 1790s-1820s. So I tried to untangle the legacy issue some more--it is a tangled question to which McCormick 40 years ago devoted a whole book on the origins of the 2nd Party System. Rjensen 00:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Pmanderson change to add this as its own sentence toward the end of the intro is acceptable to me. It contains just enough context to give credit to the relationship but show the history. Morphh 02:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Using term highly misleading

Using Republican in this article as a header title is highly misleading. I've stated before, that I do not approve, and neither do scholars overall. I DO NOT accept a change without verifiable documented evidence, that such a change of history is necessary. Democratic-Republican has always been the name used in the United States, for this party by historians - regardless of anyones opinion. --Northmeister 03:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Further J.Q. Adams was a Democratic-Republican only until the party splintered in 1824 when he organized the National Republican Party and Jackson men became what would be the Democratic Party. --Northmeister 03:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The term most often used by scholars and historians for 50 years has been "Republican party." Second has been "Jeffersonian Republican"; in last place has been the D-R term. Fewer than 10% of current textbooks use D-R. All this is documented above in great detail--look also at the titles of the books in the bibliography. Rjensen 03:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Once again as on numerous occasions you are wrong. What current text-books use, as I mentioned before does not matter and is YOUR opinion. Democratic-Republican is what the party has been referred to in American History, and as standard usage for over one-hundred or more years. First, you reject legitimate sources who have published for leading magazines and newspapers, and for Simon and Shuster Press (especially an anthology) and now your rejecting the actual name of a party? What is your point of insisting wrongly that this party be called the Republican Party, when they accepted Democratic-Republican as official in 1798 as I have shown above. --Northmeister 04:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually looked at the websites of most of the current textbooks. See above for elaborate details, and also details on usage in current scholarly journals. It is NOT true that a majority of historians have ever preferred that D-R term. It has always been a minority and now is down to the 10% level. I argue Wiki should be current. Students who turn to this article after studying Washington and Jefferson will be totally baffled--9 of 10 will be mystified by this strange name. Rjensen 04:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree with your analysis - where do you get this stuff? Wikipedia should be accurate and Democratic-Republican is an accurate description. As also shown above, Van Buren's party continued to use that name "officially" although together simply with "Democratic Party" during his election in 1836 against the Whigs who came from the National Republicans who also called themselves "Republicans". --Northmeister 04:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

read The Presidential Campaign of 1832. By Samuel Rhea Gammon Johns Hopkins Press. 1922. "APPENDIX I PARTY NOMENCLATURE To determine exactly when the terms "Democratic" and "Democratic Republican," on the one hand, and the term "National Republican," on the other, came to be applied to the followers of Jackson and to those of Adams and Clay respectively, is difficult. This cannot be categorically determined since usage varied in different States. Indeed the only sweeping statement applicable is that there never was any uniformity or consistency generally displayed by either party in its self-designation down to 1830; even as late as 1832 the Jacksonians referred to themselves officially as the "Republican party." That's solid evidence. What evidence can Northmeister cite???? Rjensen 04:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

What did parties call themselves in 1830s? Here's the hard evidence state by state--it's fun to browse through. Note that "D-R" is used by Van Buren people in late 1830s. [6] Rjensen 04:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

proof: 1832: Jacksonian national convention: call themselves "Republican delegates". [7] Rjensen 04:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is a checkable source by all:

• "DEMOCRATIC - REPUBLICAN PARTY, The (IN U. S. HISTORY), the political party whose theory has aimed at the increase of direct popular control over the government, the widening of the right of suffrage, the limitation of the powers of the federal government, and the conservation of the powers reserved to the state governments by the constitution. (See STATE RIGHTS, under STATE SOVEREIGNTY.) It is therefore a strict construction party (see CONSTRUCTION, I.) and has always operated as a check upon the nationalization of the United States. (But see CONSTRUCTION, III.) It at first (in 1792-3) took the name of the republican party, which more properly belongs to its present possessors (in 1881; see REPUBLICAN PARTY), and was generally known by that name until about 1828-30. Upon its absorption of the French or democratic faction, in 1793-6, it took the official title of the democratic-republican party, which it still claims. About 1828-30 its nationalizing portion having broken off and taken the name of "national republican" (see WHIG PARTY, I.), the particularist residue assumed the name of "democrats," which had been accepted since about 1810 as equivalent to "republicans," and by which they have since been known. Some little confusion, therefore, has always been occasioned by the similarity in name between the strict construction republican party of 1793 and the broad construction republican party of 1856." .org/LIBRARY/YPDBooks/Lalor/llCy364.html Cyclopædia of Political Science, Political Economy, and the Political History of the United States by the Best American and European Writers,

- this source pretty much sums up my argument. Democratic-Republican was used with Democratic Party together (the party members called themselves both names) and National Republican was used then dropped to become Whig Party of Clay and Webster - to then become the Republican Party of Fremont and Lincoln.--Northmeister 04:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. See it adopted the name "Democratic-Republican" as early as 1793-6. I'm putting that in the article. Griot 04:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Before this supposed business of the Republican Party "officially" taking the name "Democratic-Republican" goes into the article, we need to find something which is not a brief entry in a (19th century natch) encyclopedia that explains the context of this. Something is not a fact because it's repeated in a bunch of dubious sources (in different ways - note that the other sources which make this claim say 1798, while this one says 1793-1796.) Also notice that this source does say that the party was generally called the "Republicans." john k 09:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Both sides are using sources out of copyright, as most available. Rjensen's source is Harding-era historiography, so this is between the pot and the kettle. (And we are not supposed to determine "facts"; we are supposed to state what's out there. If Griot's claim has been refuted, the refutation should be findable - and included.) Septentrionalis 15:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

A somewhat moroe recent historian (Monaghan: John Jay, p. 396) speaks of Freneau as a Democratic journalist, when writing about 1795. The only modern tendency against DR is the partisan tracts DLJessup lists far above. Septentrionalis 20:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Partisan tracts?? What in the world are you talking about? DLJessup listed a lot of popular history books, by well known historians. Which side is supposed to be writing the partisan tracts? How does it advance a partisan interest to refer to a political party by the name it was mostly known as at the time? Have you even bothered to read the whole page before commenting? There've been a ton of sources cited that use "Republican". john k 21:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

There are tons of sources from 1792-1828 that use Republican; there are (perhaps somewhat fewer) tons of sources from that period that use Democratic. This is how they came up with Democratic-Republican in the first place. There are also modern historians who use all three. The partisan and tendentious ones will always use Republican or Democratic; the non-partisan ones tend (not always) to use Democratic-Republican, for the same reasons of disambiguation we should. Septentrionalis 23:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

To be more specific: Federalists used the term "Democrats" (but never D-R), while Jeffersonians used "Republican" (and occasionally used "D-R"). There were very few "nonpartisan" sources. The D-R term did come in local use in some areas after about 1820, but was never official. The first important historian was Hildreth in 1840s, who was strongly pro-federalist. He used Republican about twice as often as he used Democratic, but he never used D-R. Sometime after Hildreth some historian started using the D-R term -- that must have happened in 1850-1880 time span (Lalor uses D-R in 1881) but I have not figured out which historian. Rjensen 23:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see. The books DLJessup listed are partisan tracts because you've already decided that any source which uses "Republican" exclusively is a partisan tract? That's a pretty clear instance begging the question, surely - you are "proving" that all sources that use "Republican" are partisan tracts, on the basis of the "fact" that only partisan tracts would use "Republican". That's a pretty textbook case. At any rate, as has been exhaustively demonstrated here, most historians now tend to use "Republican". This is not a matter of partisanship (most historians are not, in fact, trying to slyly claim Jefferson for the GOP, what with most historians being Democrats), but a matter of using the term which the party most often used to refer to itself, I imagine. At least, this is what you'll see if you look at the H-Net discussion Rjensen started on the subject (I think it's linked somewhere above). I think I'll ask again whether you've actually read the earlier discussions on this subject. There is simply no basis for the claim that 'Republican' is primarily used to score partisan points. (And if anyone in this discussion has clearly had a partisan axe to grind, it is Griot...) john k 00:09, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

• Since johnk has confused when I am talking about the DR's and when about the moderns, I propose to call those writing about the Party during its existence contemporaries, and the moderns moderns (historians is not wholly accurate, and may have contributed to the confusion.)
• johnk's position about contemporary usage may be a tendency; as a rule, it appears to be simply wrong. Dumas Malone (III, p.121) says that there was a network of Democratic and Republican societies, so called; the oldest is the Democratic Club of Philadelphia, founded 1793. He also quotes Jefferson's correspondence on Washington's suppression of the "democratic societies". Ibid, p.189

My understanding is that in the early 1790s, "Democratic" and "Democratic-Republican" were often used, especially for the Democratic-republican societies, but that from the late 1790s on, the party was normally referred to as the Rpeublicans. The name "Democratic-Republican" was not a post hoc construct, and was used at the time, but it wasn't the main name. I've never read anything by an actual historian on the subject that contradicts this understanding. john k 13:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Malone also says (on the same page) that "democratic" and "republican" were becoming interchangable (c. 1794). If johnk wishes to argue that they became differentiated for a while after the crisis of 1798, he may well be right, but I really don't see it as particularly important. Septentrionalis 15:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

• As for the moderns, johnk has misread me.
  • I dismiss Jessup's list as partisan tracts, because several of them are. William Bennett, for Heaven's sake?

Sure, William Bennett is. Most were not. It's ridiculous to dismiss his whole list as partisan tracts - of the authors I'm familiar with, none seem to be authors of partisan tracts other than Bennett. Even so, it's a stretch to claim that Bennett is engaging in partisan polemic. john k 13:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Ambrose does not write tracts, but I would certainly not call him non-partisan. Septentrionalis 15:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

• • I did not say the usage of Republican is always partisan; it isn't.
  • But, however many historians are Democrats, Republicans write on history (Vandenburg, for an older example) without being historians - and their use is partisan. (Democrats dabble in history too; but less often on the 1790's.)

How can you demonstrate this? At any rate, considerable proof has been shown that the term is used frequently by real historians. john k 13:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

• Demonstrating who writes on the 1790's would be a job which I would only do for an article; and I don't propose to write American historiography this week. But this is my experience; which is worth mentioning on a talk page.
• I concur that all three terms (Democratic perhaps least often) are used by real historians. Septentrionalis 15:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

• • Jensen is fully as partisan as Griot, and with less excuse. If you can find the link to his list, I will look at it. Septentrionalis 16:31, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Jensen has provided actual evidence as to what textbooks do. All evidence which has been prevented is on this page, I think - it's never been archived. Griot has repeatedly cited incredibly dubious sources as "evidence" for his claim, and made completely insupportable assertions. He's also made wild accusations of partisan bias with no basis. (I'm a Democrat, for instance, and have no interest in letting the Republicans claim Jefferson on the basis that their parties had the same name.)

"Incredibly dubious sources" like the 25 textbooks I listed, or the Encyclopedia Britannica, or the Democratic Party iself, whose claims I think ought to be respected? I never said the Republican Party didn't take ideas from Jefferson. I only said there is no direct historical connection between the Democratic-Republicans and the modern Republican Party. The historical connection between the Demo-Repubs and the Democratic Party, by way of Jackson and others, is a historical fact. Griot 21:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

In terms of partisan bias, I think the basic issue is this. Sure, one can use it for partisan purposes. But there's a difference between bragging about being a member of the "Party of Lincoln" and saying that Lincoln was a Republican. Because Lincoln was a Republican. One shouldn't assume from this that he would agree with the present Republican Party, but it's a fact that they were members of the same party. I don't see how this is terribly different. Jefferson's party is normally (but not always) referred to as just the Republicans. This can be used for a silly partisan purpose, but there's no reason to suppress facts on this basis. john k 13:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

solid scholarly proof vs blind blanking

GRIOT uses a very old encyclopedia instead of solid scholarship. He likes to blank information -- that's pretty naughty behavior. As for name of party, let's use solid sources like Gammon's scholarly monograph--quoted at length on this page above. The 1832 proceedings of the 1st Dem national convention called themselves "Republicans", as Gammon says and as the New York Public Library listing of the convention proceesings proves. Take a look at [8] for solid proof. Rjensen 05:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

And you like to use very old (1922) material as well. The age isn't important, the facts are. You just reverted sourced material, stop this POVing material because YOU think something should be changed in American history - The above source is as legitimate as any you have provided if not more so. --Northmeister 05:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Jensen has no objection to nineteenth-century sources here.[9] The misdescription of Tuckerman (it's a list of societies; not a list of men - which is the point at controversy) makes this deplorable. Septentrionalis 15:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Richard Hildreth as first historian

Richard Hildreth was the first major historian of American political parties, writing a multivolume history in 1840s. He uses both "Republican" and "Democratic" to describe Jefferson's party in 1796-1804 era, preferring "Republican by anout 2-1. But he does not use the term "Democratic-Republican." You can read his entire text--and do word searches, at Google Books: [10].

THE PARTY DID! Get it through your head, sir. These semantics games are time-consuming over nothing. The name "Republican" and "Democratic" were used both by this party and by its members with "Republican" preferred as you say when referring to members and the party in general, but the official title was Democratic-Republican Party and that was used throughout American History and in most textbooks as a reference for this party especially to not confuse others as to the Republican Party of Fremont and Lincoln that later emerged. The WHOLE POINT, is that the party WAS called as LATE AS Van Buren's election (see poster) the Democratic Republican Party, even if the name "Democrat" or "Democratic" was beginning to then be used to describe the party that is today in name anyway the descendent of that party. --Northmeister 05:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC) (Didn't you find it curious that that particular database didn't have any earlier uses of the term?) Sam

I bolded a point in your post. All I'd like is an original document to support the point in your post I've bolded. If it was "official", was it incorporated - then there will likely, at the time, be a legislative act incorporating it (this is before state incorporation statutes, an invention of the Jacksonian era). If it was unincorporated, how about an official publication identifying it as such? Letterhead? Masthead of a party organ? A caucus or convention resolution? If you must, a statement in a period newspaper would be helpful (though less convincing, since that goes to use rather than "official" status). In my quick searches, I can't find anything to support party usage of D-R pre-Jacksonian era, other than the Democratic-Republican societies that were clearly separate. --On the other hand, I'd also like to see the same documentation for use of Republican. I see it in secondary sources, but an original document would help. Sam 16:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Answering my own question - OK, I got curious, since everyone's so invested in this, and looked around for a couple good sources, and decided Jefferson's personal papers were probably as good as it gets, right? They're mostly on-line at the Libary of Congress,click here, so I did three searches, one on Republican, one on Democratic Republican and one on Democrat Republican(and these searches are searches through an index, so it's not going to be through and catch all documents using the words). I encourage all of you to do these searches. For Republican by itself, I got 307 documents (which are going to include those with Democratic Republican, so subtract out the next number). They include certifying people to be "genuine Republicans"[11], lists comparing "Federalist" and "Republican" officeholders[12], letters from varying groups of republican citizens,[13], letters to Madison on party affairs ("I have a letter.... which supposes the republican vote of N. Carolina will be but a bare majority."),[14], and a few letters classed as "Republican" related but not using the term. For "Democrat Republican" I got 8, and for Democratic Republican, I got 15, with some overlap. Among the "Democrat Republican" bunch, I found no use of the words together as a party name. In the results of the "Democratic Republican" search, I found mostly correspondence with local "Democratic Republican" groups, mostly in Pennsylvania but with strays in Delaware and Maryland[15], as well as some items classified as Democratic Republican not using the words within them. My conclusion: Jefferson's usage was mostly "Republican" but there were at least a few local parties who called themselves "Democratic Republicans", and the latter name at least existed in parlance. The more "official" documents I found, none of which I'd classify as fully official, support "Republican". Indeed, most of two dozen documents I reviewed (and from a review of the index, most of the roughly 300 documents coming up under the Republican search) use the name Republican in the context of a political party. Sam 17:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The Jefferson papers at the University of Virginia are probably better to link to; I believe they give permanent links. I observe that Jefferson also refers to "democratic societies" (to Monroe, May 26, 1795). Septentrionalis 15:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

When did the party officially name itself D-R -- what year, what month? GRIOT for weeks has been saying sometime in 1798. Now Northmeister says it was much earlier. When please? Citation please? FALSE STATEMENT: "the official title was Democratic-Republican Party" At the first national convention (1832)( the called themselves Republicans--why would they do that???? Rjensen 06:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, the Jacksonian Democratic Party was generally much more likely to refer to itself as the "Democratic-Republican" party than the Jeffersonian Republican party was. And this 1798 business has got to stop. john k 09:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

My Research on tracking party names

This is a fairly large contribution to the tracking the use of the name "Democratic" in describing Jefferson's party to the present era, using mostly primary sources. I hope all (or at least some) find it helpful (scroll down to the Quotes & Resources section):

Link Settler 09:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Liberal and conservative historians

How many historians are liberal/conservative? The best evidence comes from the Murray-Blessing 1982 survey that asked a cross section of professors of American political history whether they were liberal or conservative on domestic social and economic issues. The liberals outnumbered conservatives 190:50 or 80%-20% The two groups had only small differences in ranking the best and worst presidents.

Rankings by Liberals and Conservatives

rank	Liberals (n=190)	Conservatives (N=50)
1	Lincoln	Lincoln
2	FD Roosevelt	Washington
3	Washington	FD Roosevelt
4	Jefferson	Jefferson
5	T Roosevelt	T Roosevelt
6	Wilson	Jackson
7	Jackson	Truman
8	Truman	Wilson
9	LB Johnson	Eisenhower
10	John Adams	John Adams
30	Coolidge	Carter
31	Pierce	Nixon
32	Buchanan	Pierce
33	An. Johnson	An. Johnson
34	Grant	Buchanan
35	Nixon	Grant
36	Harding	Harding

Source: Murray, Robert K. and Tim H. Blessing. Greatness in the White House: Rating the Presidents, from Washington Through Ronald Reagan (1994) p 135 Rjensen 15:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting information. I see the top five are agreed upon other than the Washington/FDR swap but both are in the top five. Lincoln-Washington-FDR-Theodore Roosevelt-Jefferson...I would concur with that analysis - even Jefferson (who had more force for his thoughts on liberty and democracy than on governance). --Northmeister 01:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

For goodness sakes

Guess what? The party used both names. A large majority of people in the united states today know the name of this party as the name it is right now: Democratic-Republican, and that it is in todays form the democratic party. Though I doubt the ideals back then are anything like today's crazy politics. I'm weighing in on this because I'd be stupified if this article changed its name. The name 'republican' can certainly be used within the article, because several members of it back in the day did apparently call it as such, while others called it different. And for years and years it was in textbooks as democratic-republican. Anything else is confusing to most people who would look for this. Kevin_b_er 01:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Democratic-Republican and hyphenation

I'm curious as to when and why the hyphenation was introduced into the name. I'm at a loss to find early sources from the Library of Congress that hypenated the name--its appellation was "Democratic Republican" from at least the turn of the 19th century through the 1830s of the pro-Jackson/Van Buren faction. It is also true that it went by the appellation Republican (sans Democratic), before anyone points that out. I'm just interested in how the hyphenation came about. Settler 04:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

It's hyphenated because "Democratic-Republican" in this instance is an adjective that modifies the noun "Party." The party officially became the Democratic-Republican Party in 1798. Griot 05:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

All early sources that I have found in the online Library of Congress (More) do not have hyphenation. I would like to see evidence to the contrary. Have you read my sources listed in (HTML / PDF) resource section on the naming or have searched for the term "Democratic Republican" in the online edition of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison Papers?Settler 05:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how you can have it both ways; Republican AND Democratic Republican. "According to Federalist Noah Webster, the choice of the name "Republican" was "a powerful instrument in the process of making proselytes to the party.... The influence of names on the mass of mankind, was never more distinctly exhibited, than in the increase of the democratic party in the United States. The popularity of the denomination of the Republican Party, was more than a match for the popularity of Washington's character and services, and contributed to overthrow his administration.""

All the textbooks I've seen have termed this party "Republican". It's odd that some are choosing to use the artificial name that neither Jefferson nor Madison used. And the above quotes are derogatory in tone, instead of providing valuable information. It is clearly attempting to spin the success of Jefferson's and Madison's party on the name alone, based primarily on the sour-grapes opinion of one of their opposition. It should be struck. Skyemoor 01:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

My general understanding is as follows-- The party name was fairly universally Republican from 1792 onward to about the turn of the century, when some, but not all or even most, local Republican groups called themselves "Democratic Republicans" or in some rarer instances "Democratic" ll a b c d e f g h i j k l m o p q Jefferson (and later Madison zz (1834)) addresses them in their letters to some of those groups specifically as "Democratic Republicans" r s According to Martin Van Buren t u, Federalists began calling themselves "Federal Republicans," at least in some instances that I could find v w x, sparking the increasing adoption by Republicans of "Democratic" in order to contrast the parties. Jefferson noted in his later letters leading up until his death that after the conclusion of the War of 1812 in 1814-1815 that many Federalists had dumped their old party name and had taken on the Republican one, but not the party's principles. I imagine this idea was the same when the "National Republican" name came into use and the "Democratic Republican" name was used by some of those adhering to Jackson y z aa bb cc dd ee ff gg or those resisting local party amalgamation hh. Settler 05:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

A slight tweak: Both Democratic and Republican seem to have been used for the political clubs that fought the election of 1792; whether they were a party is another question. "Democratic" went out of favor after it was associated with the Jacobins; and from that point, I agree with Settler. Septentrionalis 05:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

As for the hyphenation, it's probably grammatical. "We are Democratic Republicans" [nouun], but "Democratic-Republican Party" [adjective].Septentrionalis 05:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Weird code

There seems to be some code attached to the article (edit: look at notes section) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.59.131.134 (talk • contribs) .

See Wikipedia:Footnotes. blameless 17:59, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

One more thought about naming and party lineage

I have taught middle school US history. It is far more NPOV than anything I heard in history classes at university - although since I am a serious student of history, I also recognize how many ridiculous statements make it into school textbooks and require purging at some point.

Anyway, the point is that what passes for "common knowledge" on this subject is that the party is known to posterity as the Democrat-Republican party, even though it was commonly called the Republican party in its day. One of the reasons this name is chosen is that both of the modern day political parties in the US like to trace their roots to Thomas Jefferson, even though Jackson and Lincoln are the de facto founders of the modern day parties.

The Federalists have no real decendents in modern America. Their ideas, perceived as pro-monarchist and pro-class, were discredited, especially as a result of the Whisky Rebellion and the Alien and Sedition Acts. Much of what passes for acceptable political ideas in American politics was shaped by this debate. For example, the GOP might attack the Dems for being too statist, Washington centered, and tax-and-spend, while the Dems will accuse the GOP of being classist and overly pro-business (and might see something like the Patriot Act as being akin to the Sedition Act). Basically - as is wont ot happen in the revolutionary political climate that persists in the US to this day - Federalist ideas gradually became viewed as "un-American."

Really, Jefferson's victory in 1800 was instrumental in defining the ideals of a young democracy, and both modern parties construct and reconstruct their political ethos from the raw intellectual capital of Jefferson's philosophic victory over the Federalists. It forms the boundary of the debate (with apologies to those who extended it, such as TR, FDR, and LBJ). I suspect that the naming of Jefferson's party in the history books stems from a desire to reflect that reality - so important to understanding the rest of US history - which was viewed as more instructive than teaching the literal (but relatively pointless) fact of what name was actually used in the newspapers in the early 19th century. The fact that one of the modern parties is called "Republican" just bolsters the case, since it avoids confusion. In any case, 95% of the educated adults in the US know this party as the "DRP" - though whether an encyclopedia ought to refect this or the literal fact is very debatable.

But to say that the "DRP" is more the forerunner of the Democrats than the Republicans is misleading as well - Jacksonian democracy may seem closer to Jeffersonian democracy than to Lincoln's abolitionism, but then again, it was separated by fewer years. Certainly today the case is muddy. Republicans in pro-states-rights middle America seem to have inherited more of Jefferson's legacy than the urban ideals driving modern Democratic politics (though both sides seem to be steeped in competing forms of Lincoln's moral fervor).

In any case, I linked to this article from the Hamilton article, which refered to the "Republican party" (linked here) as well as to the "Republican party (linked to the GOP article) in the same paragraph. I was previously aware of the historical accuracy of calling Jefferson a "Republican" but nonetheless my first instict was to change it, since it is confusing and out of the norm. Sure, some ultramodern middle school texts have reverted to this - though not the one at my school six years ago - but ours also credited the Iroquois for inventing democracy. Just because history textbooks have changed something in the last 10 years doesn't make it more true - in fact, it makes me less likely to believe it, if anything, since there has been such a violent flurry of revisionism in school texts in recent years. I found it jarring that the text of that article referred to the Republican Party as the party of Jefferson and would have fixed it, except that I have no wish to get drawn into the flame war underway on THAT page.

In any event, if we are going to keep the name of the article as one thing, then the links to it should say the same thing. We are trying to create an encyclopedia, and on a point like this - where there is a pretty sound argument for doing it either way - the value of consistency probably is paramount. It is dodgy to grugingly agree to keep the old name, but then sneak around using the other name in all other articles, where the discussion is bifurcated. That is even worse - we leave the confusing text, AND link to an inaccurate name.

I suggest that - since it seems to have stuck - that we keep the name DRP as it is now, and explain the naming issue at the top of the article - then use Republican the rest of the way. That seems to be the status quo. BUT - the links from the other articles should say, in the text, "DRP," since that is the naming convention used in the title. Not everyone will be happy with this but it is consistent, and fully informative for anyone who reads the article. Cheers Kgdickey 02:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

it is NOT true that "95% of the educated adults in the US know this party as the "DRP" -- certainly not if they attended college--the great majority (90%) of history textbooks since 1980s do NOT use the DRP terminology. It's obsolescent because of the rise of the interest in republicanism in the last 30+ years due to Bailyn, Woods, Ellis, Morgan, and many others. Rjensen 12:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I attended university, beginning in 1989, and DRP was still in broad usage (which proves nothing, obviously). But I think that the section of the debate which is most convincing is the exchange between you and Griot, above. He cites 25 books, which you attack as being "not scholarly" and even point out that one is "for third graders." The group of books you respond with is very much made up of more modern and scholarly works, true, but they also are heavily revisionist, political, and all have a heavy POV. My argument here is not that you (speaking to Rjensen here) are wrong - you are not. My argument is that for the purposes of WP, books written for third graders are possibly better sources when trying to resolve POV or "common usage" arguments than modern scholarly works with titles such as "The Failure of the Founding Fathers." Brilliant as Ackerman's book is, it is not NPOV by any stretch, nor is it written for a lay audience who are trying to sort out details of which party was which.

But in the end I am not trying to have this debate with you - it has been beaten to death already and in the end, as a point of fact, I don't even disagree with you. The purpose of my post was to make two points - first, to muse about the reason that so many lay (or third grade if you will) sources use the term DRP - and point out that there were reasons behind it. It wasn't just bad research, but the name was more descriptive to a lay audience who was primarily studying the party in order to understand its historical context (as well as distinguish it from the GOP). Second, I was arguing for consistency, since it appears that a de facto compromise has been reached, let's apply it in other early US history articles as well. Can we do that? Remember, if you have a point of view, and use WP editing to tirelessly maintain the facts that back up your point of view, you are violating the spirit of the thing, even if you can argue that you are only debating facts, not opinion. On the other hand, the ability to accept a compromise that the vast majority of editors have forged is not only in the spirit of what it takes to create an encylopedia, but it also frees said editor to work on other articles, instead of being stuck on a treadmill on the handful of articles in which one's heels are dug in. Cheers. Kgdickey 14:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Good compromise: call it Jeffersonian Republican Party

As we have seen the term "Democratic-Republican Party" is highly confusing because it was not used at the time, and is not now used in 90% of textbooks, and can only confuse people who think it is some sort of coalition. The "Jeffersonian Republican Party" solves all the problems--it was used at the time, it is used in textbooks, it leads to no confusion with the GOP. (The term "Early Republican Party" was never used by anybody--the one book with that in the title deals with 1850s.) Rjensen 10:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to stick with the compromise, but I don't like the title of the article. I've always known the party as the Democratic-Republican Party. How do we know that 90% of textbooks don't use D-RP? From what I've learned in school, the "Democratic Party" name comes from Andrew Jackson's peeling away from the D-RP. This was just a few concerns. --myselfalso 19:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Rjensen has a habit of claiming historians' consensus for his personal opinion; but he's more accurate this time than usual. Some respected historians do use the term. This title, however, is undesirable and misleading. Septentrionalis 21:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

On what basis is it "undesirable and misleading"? Skyemoor 10:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

How do we know about textbook? Anyone can look at the web pages: Above on the talk page is a listing of all the major college textbooks that I found that have web pages. Only one uses the D-R terminology. High school textbooks have web pages but they are password protected. The only open one uses "Republican". Rjensen 21:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Requested talk page move

Talk:Early Republican Party (United States) → Talk:Democratic-Republican Party (United States) – I erred when trying to sync the talk pages with what I thought had been a move of the article originally at Democratic-Republican Party (United States) to Early Republican Party (United States). … Please share your opinion at Talk:Early Republican Party (United States). DLJessup (talk) 21:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support Talk page should be with article, at original location, until there is consensus to move it, and WP:RM should be informed of any proposals to move it. Septentrionalis 21:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support per above. Sam 15:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

On the substantive issue, early Republican Party is a bad choice, simply because WP's software will make it appear the non-existent Early Republican Party. This is aside from all issues on what the article should be called, on which my position has not changed. Septentrionalis 21:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. Vegaswikian 21:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Jeffersonian Republican Party is better name

No one ever uses the term "Early Republican Party" so it has no place in an Encyclopedia. Much better is "Jeffersonian Republican party" which is in widespread use among scholars and textbooks, and creates no confusion with the GOP. (There is one book on the Early Republican Party by Crandall and it deals with the GOP in the 1850s, exactly the confusion we want to avoid. Rjensen 00:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I rv the redirect from the jeffersonian republican party as there are afd and redirects combined. The articles need better organization with the afd, mergers, and redirects.--I already forgot 12:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree; we need to get rid of the forks; then we can discuss where this article ought to be. Septentrionalis 21:18, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree completely with prior comment - get rid of forks first, then discuss proper name. My preference for name would be, in order, (1) Republican Party (Jeffersonian); (2) Jeffersonian Republican Party; (3) Democratic-Republican Party (but, using Republican Party freely in the text). I would be happy with any other identifier other than Jeffersonian in parens in (1), as well, such as (Early), (First) or (Democratic-Republican). Sam 15:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Which name?

Sam has set the ball rolling (to quote a different party). It looks like the AfD will succeed, so we might as well set out positions. I would at least wait to contact WP:RM, or take any other action, until it passes, as looks likely.

The fundamental consideration here is that Republican Party and Republican Party (United States) are both unavailable for this article; arguments which tend to prove that it ought to be so named are therefore pointless. All the names that could be used instead have disadvantages; but Democratic-Republican Party has the fewest:

• It was actually used as a name for the party by some of its members;

How early and how many members? This was not the original name and is therefore misleading.

• It is a traditional solution to the problem among later historians (For a recent example, there is American Government by Karen O'Connor and Larry Sabato (1997));

Should we repeat errors? Does the sun revolve around the earth?

• It avoids the appearance of partisanship;

It seems to impose partisanship by name-grabbing revisionism.

What revisionism? DR's been in common use for at least 190 years; and is older. Septentrionalis 05:49, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

• And it can be used in running text.

I don't see how this has any bearing on truthful reporting of encyclopedic information. Skyemoor 23:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Democratic-Republicans is shorter, and has the advantage of not claiming this body to be a party in the modern sense, so it would be my other choice. Septentrionalis 18:25, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I vote for the title that reflects the original party name. Skyemoor 23:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

• This is not a vote;

Then why are you wasting your time?

• There was no "original party name"; they didn't have a founding convention.

That is not a prerequisite, especially at that time.

• I have seen no evidence of "Jeffersonian Republican Party" as used by the DRs; either Jeffersonian or Republican would be more defensible.

Republican is fine with most, except for those that insist on DR.

• • Since "Democratic-Republican" was occasionally used before 1816 (see above) it has a better, if slim, claim, even to that. Septentrionalis 05:49, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Not at all.

1) "the term "Democratic-Republican party" was not used by anybody before 1816 or so.

2) Historians once did use the term. In the last 25 years they prefer "Republican Party" by a large majority (according to the titles of articles in JSTOR and books).(This is documented above, and note the titles in our bibliography)

3) D-R rarely appears in history textbooks since 1990; we actually did a check of all college textbooks (only one used D-R)

4) D-R DOES appear in come political science textbooks (like Sabato) The Welch politics textbook uses "Jeffersonian Republicans"

5) D-R DOES appear in older reference books, like the Ency Brit

6) D-R falsely suggests some sort of coalition, like the "Democratic Farmer Labor Party" which is the name of the D party in Minnesota.

7) The Federalists often ridiculed the republicans by calling them democrats. But I believe they never used the D-R terminology. (D-R does not show up in the online works of Hamilton, Adams or Ames, or in online Federalist newspapers.)

recommendation: "Jeffersonian Republican" is in current use, offends no one, and confuses fewer people. Rjensen 23:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

"Democratic-Republican" is also in current scholarly use.

You would need to show us that it is the majority position. Rjensen has done his homework to collect the evidence to support his position; you merely make pronouncements.

If DR is more commonly used by political scientists, and R is fashionable among historians, so what?

We are reporting history, not current political posturing.

We are not here to take sides in departmental squabbles. I don't see why Democratic-Republican Party is confusing to anyone, except those people like Nikpapag who would like to use "Democrat Party"; but if it makes it seem less like a fusion, I have no objection to Democratic Republicans Septentrionalis 17:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

And I have no objection to Early Republican or Jeffersonian Republican.Skyemoor 00:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Original name

The Democratic Republicans spent a long time denying that they were a party; so did the Federalists. They used various names for themselves and their friends, including "Jeffersonians", "Republicans", and "Democrats"; "Democratic-Republicans" is one of these.

The current OED, btw, accepts "Democratic Party", and defines it as Name of the political party originally called Anti-Federal and afterwards Democratic-Republican, initially favouring strict interpretation of the Constitution with regard to the powers of the general government and of individual States.. with citations from 1800 and 1812; their first citation of "Republican" is from 1806 and is clearly hostile: Benjamin Tallmadge saying "Our exclusive republican Brethren, those dear Lovers of the people." Septentrionalis 17:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

This is revisionist in the extreme: you've seen many references above to the party being called Republican, even with Noah Webster stating such most clearly. Skyemoor 00:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

As revisionist as the National Endowment of the Humanities, the Britannica, Encarta and the OED (just quoted). Clearly, Skyemoor is a Lone Hero standing for Truth against a vast Revisionist Conspiracy, which dates back at least to the 1911 Britannica.

But, seriously, this claim of revisionism is sourceless and erroneous. The group in question had several names, all of which were used; the oldest may be "anti-Federalist", or "anti-monocrat". Works of general reference, when they have not asserted identity with the Democratic Party (which is a branch of the DRP), have tended to avoid both "Democrats" and "Republicans", both for non-partisanship and to avoid simple confusion. They have also restricted "anti-Federalist" to the opponents of ratification of the constitution, again, for convenience. Prudence, indeed, suggests that we should follow this example.

So Noah Webster, highly touted by some for his accuracy, is considered sourceless and erroneous when he referred to them as Republicans? Was this typical of a Federalist? Skyemoor 18:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Noah Webster was the highest of High Federalists; sufficiently so that his politics were a laughing-stock in his own time. If Skyemoor wants to find out what the DRs called themselves, Webster is the last place to look. I do however note the use of Republican by an opponent. Septentrionalis 22:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

So what you are saying is that you don't trust Noah Webster to accurately reflect the extant party names, but you'll scrape the barrel to find secondary hearsay references that you will build the biggest part of your case on. Sorry, you can't throw out the evidence you don't like and keep the few you like. It may work in blogs, but an encyclopedia must be held to higher standards. Skyemoor 22:47, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

No, what I'm saying is that the DAE and OED are better dictionaries, in part because they have Webster as a substrate on which to found corrections. I didn't find Cumings; they did. Septentrionalis 17:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Some historians, especially those who write only about the period and not about Jackson or Lincoln, have used Republicans; some (not as many) have used Democrats. Such historians can take for granted that they can avoid ambiguity; and they have usually been writing for an audience who already know the basics of American history. WP can assume neither. Septentrionalis 04:28, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

in recent decades over 80-90% of historians use either "Republican" or "Jeffersonian Republican," exceptions are rare. The journals, textbooks and monographs are the evidence. Why confuse our readers with obsolescent terms? (Calling it the "early Republican party" is even worse--better to call it the "early Democratic party"!!!) Rjensen 05:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Because Skyemoor's judgment is right; we should not endorse a recent innovation,

Don't put words in my mouth. I said 'original', not recent. Skyemoor 18:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

or name this article in a partisan fashion, or use an unhistoric term. That is revisionism. Can Rjensen provide any usage of the compound "Jeffersonian Republican" earlier than the OED's citation of 1838? Septentrionalis 17:03, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Early or Jeffersonian can be used as adjectives, not formal constructs of the party title to provide the disambiguation that some current Republicans seek to avoid confusion. Skyemoor 18:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

And so can Democratic. Septentrionalis 17:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Its use was so limited in this context that at best that term can be mentioned in a footnote. Skyemoor 12:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The contemporary situation was summarized thus: "There are two parties, which style themselves Federal republicans and Democratic republicans, but who speaking of each other leave out the word republican and call each other Federalists and Democrats". (DAE, citing Fortescue Cuming's Western Tour, 1810) For an example of this, see George Washington's letter of 30 September 1798, when he was feeling partisan in retirement. (I observe that the editors of Washington's diary use "Democratic", unmodified, without caution or explanation [16] Septentrionalis 17:03, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Cuming's Western Tour specific page link Settler 17:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

This use is at best hearsay. One must give priority to primary citations when determining the actual use. Hence, what did Jefferson, Madison, et al say their party was called? Skyemoor 18:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Please read WP:Wikilawyering; this is not a lawsuit,

Read it yourself. It refers to Wiki Policy, not article content. Skyemoor 23:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

and Cuming is primary evidence for what usage he himself heard. (And I doubt this would be hearsay, if it were.)

Please read HearsaySkyemoor 23:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Very well; make that "doubt this would be excluded as hearsay". Exclusion requires that the statement must be offered to prove the truth of what the statement asserts if anything. Cumings is not being "summoned" for the truth of any statement made to him about the DR's; he's providing evidence that he heard the words. Septentrionalis 17:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Again,this use is at best hearsay, as Cummings is a secondary source. I never said to 'exclude' him as a reference, only that it has lower priority than a primary reference. Skyemoor 21:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Jefferson and Madison said several things; probably the most common was that "there is no party, and we would not belong to any", but also both "democratic" and "republican". They did not use "Jeffersonian Republican", or "early Republican"; I see no evidence they used "Jeffersonian" at all. Hezekiah Niles used "Jeffersonian", but not JR; he did not use it as a party name (he used Madisonian in the same sentence); and he was already using "Democratic-Republican". "Anti-federalist" probably is the oldest name for the connection; and Maclay so uses it; but I do not support that move. Septentrionalis 21:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Jefferson always used "republican" as did Madison. The Federalists called them "democrats" as a term of derision. The first examples of republicans calling themselves democrats comes out west (where there was no federalist party to heckle them), circa 1810. Noah Webster, by the way, was not a "high federalist"--he had quit politics by the time that term came in use and devited himself to speller and dictionary. It's hard to think of anyone as knowledgeable about word usage. Rjensen 23:26, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Bosh. Not only is Cuming speaking of established usage throughout the whole country p.71 (in 1807, btw);

Bosh yourself, that's not what he says. Read it again. Skyemoor 21:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

What part of "Politics, throughout the whole of this country, seems to be the most irritable subject that can be imagined. There are two ruling or prevailing parties: one, which styles inself Federal, ...[desc. of Federalists omitted]...The opposite party is one which has since sprung up, and styles itself the Democratick republicans..." is not clear? Septentrionalis 17:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

but he brings up the subject again on p. 85 because social life in Pittsburgh was was divided between the two parties, who argued continually. "No federalists to heckle them", indeed! Septentrionalis 17:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

You avoided the point; he wasn't talking about the whole country, and you haven't taken his own bias into consideration. That's a critical problem with hearsay. Skyemoor 22:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

You have not demonstrated bias; and on p. 71 he is expressly talking about the whole country (and provides his readers an overview of American political history in general). Septentrionalis 17:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The context was "The Western Tour", and he said "the whole of this country" referring directly to the sparsely populated western portion of the US. If you would like to make some other case, we'd like to hear it. Skyemoor 12:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Jefferson texts: he used "republican" for party from 1792

The Jeffersonian Cyclopedia online from Thomas Jefferson Collection Electronic Text Center, U of Virginia Library

1. A division, not very unequal, had taken place in the honest part of [Congress in 1791] between the parties styled republican and federal. The latter, being monarchists in principle, adhered to Hamilton of course, as their leader in that principle, and this mercenary phalanx, added to them, ensured him always a majority in both Houses; so that the whole action of the Legislature was now under the direction of the Treasury. Still the machine was not complete. The effect of the Funding system, and of the Assumption [of the State debts] , would be temporary. It would be lost with the loss of the individual members whom it had enriched, and some engine of influence more permanent must be contrived while these myrmidons were yet in place to carry it through all opposition. This engine was the Bank of the United States. TITLE: The Anas. DATE: 1818 (this was a memoir written years later)
2. An attempt has been made to give further extent to the influence of the Executive over the Legislature, by permitting the heads of departments to attend the House, and explain their measures vivâ voce. But it was negatived by a majority of 35 to 11, which gives us some hope of the increase of the republican vote. DATE: Nov. 1792
3. Hamilton is really a Colossus to the anti-republican party. DATE: 1795
4. I was in the habit (1798) of giving to others in distress, of the federal as well as the republican party, DATE: July. 1802
5. where I then (1798) presided as Vice-President. Remaining at our posts, and bidding defiance to the browbeatings and insults by which they endeavored to drive us off also, we kept the mass of republicans in phalanx together, until the Legislature could be brought up to the charge; and nothing on earth is more certain, than that if myself particularly, placed by my office of Vice-President at the head of the republicans, had given way and withdrawn from my post, the republicans throughout the Union would have given up in despair, and the cause would have been lost forever. ...
6. I owe infinite acknowledgments to the republican portion of my fellow citizens for the indulgence with which they have viewed my proceedings generally. — DATE: May. 1809
7. As to the patronage of the Republican Bank at Providence, I am decidedly in favor of making all the banks republican, by sharing deposits with them in proportion to the dispositions they show. If the law now forbids it, we should not permit another session of Congress to pass without amending it. It is material to the safety of republicanism to detach the mercantile interest from its enemies and incorporate them into the body of its friends. —DATE: July. 1803
8. I, as well as most other republicans who were in the way of doing it, contributed what I could afford to the support of the republican papers and printers, paid sums of money for The Bee, the Albany Register, &c., when they were staggering under the Sedition law; DATE: 1802
9. I suggested to some republican members of the delegation from his State, DATE: Jan. 1811
10. I observe old Cushing is dead. At length, then, we have a chance of getting a republican majority in the Supreme judiciary. —DATE: Sep. 1810 Rjensen 23:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

And how exactly does all this justify a name like "Jeffersonian Republican", which Jefferson never used, and which did not exist until 1838, long after his death and tbe break-up of the Party? Septentrionalis 05:19, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Jefferson was too modest -- it's others who called the party Jeffersonian. But the "republican" term is very well anchored. (offhand I cannot think of any American party whose leader named it after himself... but it's common to talk about Roosevelt's Bull Moose Party, LaFollette's Progressive Party, Wallace's party, or Perot's Reform Party. Rjensen 05:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

• they referred to themselves as a republican party - but we cannot call them that now. They did not call themselves the Early Republican party either. They referred to themselves as republican much more than as democrat(ic). D-R looks like a coalition of 2 parties, which it was not. People are regularly confused by D-R. Jeffersonian Republican is descriptive & far less likely to be confused with anything else --JimWae 05:32, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

  Would Democratic Republicans be less confusing? Septentrionalis 16:44, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

All the available choices have problems. The problems with Jeffersonian Republicans are

• They did not use it themselves
• It was not a single-person party; they were not all Jeffersonians. I have seen the phrase "Burr, the Jeffersonian Republican" in researching this; but I would prefer to avoid it here.
• The present party using the name is too small to be a real source of confusion, but it should be noted.

That being said, it may well be better than any Republican (xxx) form. I merely think that Democratic Republicans would be better still. Septentrionalis 16:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I merely think that early Republicans, Republicans (Jeffersonian), or Jeffersonian Republicans would be better still Skyemoor 21:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)