Talk:Decapitation in Islam/Archive 2
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Requested move 9 June 2022
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Not Moved - No consensus. (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 15:44, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
Beheading in Islam → Beheading in jihadist terrorism – Based on feedback from the above discussion that generally weighed in against a broader 'beheading and terrorism' rescoping, I would like to suggest narrower rescoping of this article onto the use of beheading for terror by extremist jihadist groups in a context devoid of any legal backing, Islamic or otherwise (already the focus) - and separate from the use of beheading as a legally sanctioned form of capital punishment in internationally recognised modern nation states in the Muslim World: material now covered at Capital punishment in Islam. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:22, 9 June 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. Spekkios (talk) 01:29, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose per previous RM. I see no difference between this nomination and the previous one apart from a slightly different choice of wording. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:11, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- I mean, really? It's clearly a different name and proposed scope - adjusted specifically in response to and to cater to the feedback at the previous RM. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:33, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, really! Beheading in jihadist terrorism as opposed to Beheading and terrorism? Given no other types of terrorist are known for beheading people, how is this any different whatsoever? And how does it differ from the existing Islamic State beheading incidents? -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:42, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps you missed the previous comment by Billed Mammal, where he gave just such an example:
This proposal has a second aspect that needs to be considered; expanding the scope beyond Islamic terrorism. Some sources support this, comparing it to beheadings by non-Islamic groups such as the Mexican drug cartels, and arguing that the beheadings are not tied to Islam.
Iskandar323 (talk) 14:41, 10 June 2022 (UTC)- The Mexican drug cartels are criminal gangs, not terrorist organisations. There is a difference. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:24, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hmm ... often pretty strong overlap. Be more creative in your lateral thinking. You don't think cartels and terrorist organizations exist on a spectrum of violence? Anyway, you want something stronger? I give you Columbia's FARC. Or, if you'd like something a little more academic, here: Torture, beheadings, and narcocultos Iskandar323 (talk) 16:58, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- The Mexican drug cartels are criminal gangs, not terrorist organisations. There is a difference. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:24, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps you missed the previous comment by Billed Mammal, where he gave just such an example:
- Yes, really! Beheading in jihadist terrorism as opposed to Beheading and terrorism? Given no other types of terrorist are known for beheading people, how is this any different whatsoever? And how does it differ from the existing Islamic State beheading incidents? -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:42, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- I mean, really? It's clearly a different name and proposed scope - adjusted specifically in response to and to cater to the feedback at the previous RM. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:33, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
Comment shouldn't it be a more technical term, like decapitation and Islam? cookie monster 755 06:21, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps, in theory, and perhaps more typically in legalistic circumstance, but certainly with respect jihadist terrorism, the term used in the sources tends to be 'beheading'. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:38, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
- As I argued above, and there was some support for, this article should be merged into Capital punishment in Islam (or "executions in Islam"). Certain Islamic countries carry out capital punishments under Islamic law that are not beheadings but hanging (Pakistan and Iraq) or sometimes stoning (Iran). Likewise, jihadists also use other means of killing than beheading. For example, Egyptian Islamic Jihad killed Anwar Sadat by bullets and grenades, not through beheading. I don't see a separate scope for this article.VR talk 16:45, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- Not to mention this article currently as it stands is basically a WP:SYNTH violation. It tries to make connections between Islamic scriptures and historical beheadings by Muslims even though such connections aren't made in RS.VR talk 16:47, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- Well, if the content is to remain as is, perhaps the title provided by the Slate article would be more appropriate: Decapitation and the Muslim World. [1]. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:53, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- That article isn't a scholarly source, but its worth considering what it actually says: "Under Sharia law, there are no crimes that specifically call for decapitation, but it is one of a range of execution methods that may be employed, along with stoning or hanging." That line would support a merger with Capital punishment in Islam. Also, that article is 6 paragraphs long, of which 2 paragraphs talk about decapitations in the Western world and the Bible. Yet I don't think it would be encyclopedic to create an article called "Decapitation and the Western world".VR talk 19:52, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- But most of this article, volume-wise, is about jihadist terror beheadings, which is inappropriate material to lump together with a article on capital punishment in Islam, particularly when most jihadist terror groups are typically viewed by almost overwhelming scholarly consensus as fundamentally un-Islamic, though of course derived from Islam. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:20, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- Most of the article, volume-wise, is WP:SYNTH. It simply collects instances of beheadings (either actual or imagined) by jihadists. What is the connection, for example, between a beheading in the First Chechen War and some graffiti in Karanataka? "Beheadings in jihadist terrorism" is as arbitrary a topic as Stabbings in jihadist terrorism. When I said "merge", I didn't mean move all the content over, but only that content which meets WP:NOR, WP:V and to present it at the destination article in accordance with WP:DUE.VR talk 21:19, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- But most of this article, volume-wise, is about jihadist terror beheadings, which is inappropriate material to lump together with a article on capital punishment in Islam, particularly when most jihadist terror groups are typically viewed by almost overwhelming scholarly consensus as fundamentally un-Islamic, though of course derived from Islam. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:20, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- That article isn't a scholarly source, but its worth considering what it actually says: "Under Sharia law, there are no crimes that specifically call for decapitation, but it is one of a range of execution methods that may be employed, along with stoning or hanging." That line would support a merger with Capital punishment in Islam. Also, that article is 6 paragraphs long, of which 2 paragraphs talk about decapitations in the Western world and the Bible. Yet I don't think it would be encyclopedic to create an article called "Decapitation and the Western world".VR talk 19:52, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support: I just reviewed the comments and realized there are at least to separate issues related to: a) title and b) content. I'm not sure which one should be handled first, but there should be some changes certainly. Since this discussion focuses on the title, I agree that the article mostly covers the instances of beheading by non-state terror actors. That said, the purposed title seems suitable to me. --Mhhossein talk 05:37, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Comment, if the article is moved, it should be to Beheading in islamic terrorism to be consistent with Islamic terrorism, which is the common name. Vpab15 (talk) 12:53, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.